used cam and used lifters

[hotrod56cars]

I read somewhere that buying a used hydraulic non-roller cam is a waist of money because the cam is likely to go flat quickly if installed in a different block. Is this true?
How about used roller (solid or hydraulic) cam and lifters, can they be swapped into a different block without problems? Does each lifter need to stay with it's previously run on cam lobe? Are there wear patterns on roller cams and roller lifters?
Roller cams and their req.'d parts are expensive new and I see a lot of used roller stuff for sale, WHAT'S THE DEAL?
Thanks!

[steelcomp]

It's always a good idea to keep the lifters in the same order on any cam, but flat tappet cams, both hyd. and solid must have the lifters stay on the same lobes. If you mix them up after the cam is broken in, there's a good chance the cam will go flat. Dosen't matter if you swap them from engine to engine, just keep the lifters in order. On roller cams it really dosen't matter.

[Sleeper CP]

Steel, for the cost of lifters is he better off using the old lifter's or buying a new set a breaking them in if he is not sure of the lobe/lifter pairing?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[speedymopars]

Hyd flat tappet No No
New cam old lifters.
Old cam, old lifters, moved around
Old or new cam, Roller lifters
Hyd flat tappet OK
Old cam, new lifters
Old cam old lifters in EXACT bore.
Roller cam No No
Hyd flat lifters
Roller cam OK
Old cam, old lifters (any position)
Old cam, new lifters (any position)
New cam, old lifters (any position)
New cam , new lifters (any position)
Solid rollers on Hyd grind - OK
Hyd rollers on solid grind - OK
************
If you have an unknown hyd flat tappet / cam / lifter bore combo, throw away the lifters. Buy some new ones and break it in like you do for any first break in. Many of us with roller cams swap out the lifters anytime we tear it down more as an insurance policy rather than a true need. I know I do.

[steelcomp]

Steel, for the cost of lifters is he better off using the old lifter's or buying a new set a breaking them in if he is not sure of the lobe/lifter pairing?
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:DDepends on the lobe and spring. Chances are the new lifters on an old cam are still going to be trouble, especially with any kind of performance spring pressure. Stock lobe and stock pressure you might get away with it, but why risk? When a lobe (or more than one) goes flat, that cast iron has to go somewhere.

[hotbo]

you can put any cam in any block as along as its made for it,if not for sure on the lifters buy new ones for flat tappet cams,if they are marked correctly go for it.rollers hell they are rollers reuse anytime you feel the need,:D

[Moneypitt]

Speedy, you're saying it is OK to use and old hyd cam with NEW flat tappet lifters?...How many times have you done this?.....99 times out of a 100 this will cause lobe failure, usually within 50 miles......Any flat tappet cam/lifter combo with any miles on it at all must be re mated to the original position. If the original position is lost, throw it all away and start over, new cam, new lifters. Putting a new, very flat bottomed lifter on a worn, rounded lobe is a grinding wheel that will make it's own compound very quickly and polute the rest of the engine before you can read this post. You stated you change roller lifters every teardown? Yet you would install mismatched flat tappet stuff?.......I ran the same roller lifters for 15 plus racing years, same roller rockers, same camshaft, and same SPARKPLUGS. Never had a valvetrain failure of any type.......Quality roller stuff lasts alot longer than flat tappet stuff.....How many engines have you assembled with mix and match aged flat tappet componants?............MP

[LynnsJet]

I had a nice Herbert flat hydraulic blower cam that I really liked. Jetmech737 told me that he has had bad luck with used cams in a reblocked engine. I didn't want to listen, I was very careful to keep the lifters all in order, etc. I used the right lube and I broke the cam in again like it was new.
I ran it about 5 hours and wiped out a lobe.
It really isn't worth the trouble to try and use a used flat tappet cam. You can't afford (time & $) to save money with a used cam.
Roller cams are the way to go. I wish I had used one when I first built my motor. I have one now.

[malcolm]

MP is right. No new stuff on an old flat tappet cam. Matched lifters only.

[speedymopars]

Speedy, you're saying it is OK to use and old hyd cam with NEW flat tappet lifters?...How many times have you done this?.....99 times out of a 100 this will cause lobe failure, usually within 50 miles......Any flat tappet cam/lifter combo with any miles on it at all must be re mated to the original position. If the original position is lost, throw it all away and start over, new cam, new lifters. Putting a new, very flat bottomed lifter on a worn, rounded lobe is a grinding wheel that will make it's own compound very quickly and polute the rest of the engine before you can read this post. You stated you change roller lifters every teardown? Yet you would install mismatched flat tappet stuff?.......I ran the same roller lifters for 15 plus racing years, same roller rockers, same camshaft, and same SPARKPLUGS. Never had a valvetrain failure of any type.......Quality roller stuff lasts alot longer than flat tappet stuff.....How many engines have you assembled with mix and match aged flat tappet componants?............MP
I have put new flat tappet lifters on old cams many many times (to many to count, the van alone has had 3 sets of hyd flat tappet lifters on the current cam - the originals, Crane high intensity, and rhodes - changed for performance reasons not because anything was "wrong"), I have never had a lobe go flat on me in my 20+ years of building and racing. Of course - I build Mopars which have lots of oil to the exposed cam and a huge lifter diameter - maybe a factor. The van 440 has 275K miles on it now. My friend on the other hand has a 454 that eats cam lobes no matter what he tries. He is on his 5th or 6th cam. Maybe it's a Chevy thing.
The lifter is the female - it wants to mate for life.
The cam is male - it will mate with anything new and exciting.
On the roller lifters - tons more liability at 8500 RPM with 800 lbs of spring pressure and huge valves than a little hyd cam with 200 lbs reving at 5500. I have broken my generous share of valvetrain components, and destroyed enough motors to be very seasoned. What is another $200 in rollers when you have $600 in the oil pump alone (let alone the rest of the engine). I have broken enough rollers to know to change every time at rebuild. If you truly have never broken parts, you aren't trying hard enough :-) I have learned the most through failure. I used to have a website called the galleria of breakage.
With the amount of nitrous oxide I run, I like a good spark. Other peoples good plugs are spare parts for the tow rig to me.
I am down on engines at the moment - I only have a Mopar 5.9, 2x Mopar 4.7, Mopar 383, Mopar 400, Mopar 440, Mopar 452, Olds 455, and a Keith black (Mopar) 528 at the moment. These are personal engines all built by myself (except the olds, the 5.9 and the 383). All run hard. Built many more for friends and others. Used to swap cams all the time between friends - we all just bought new lifters.
I pretty much run rollers exclusively now, with the Zinc and other nessasary additives gone from the oil, flat tappet cams are going the way of the dodo bird.
How about yourself - how many times have you personally tried new lifters on an old cam and had it fail?

[Moneypitt]

How about yourself - how many times have you personally tried new lifters on an old cam and had it fail?
Twice, both times I used new lifters with an old cam....Oh, and they were both MOPARS.:sqeyes: I have seen alot more failures, too many too count, and have tried to clean up other peoples messes afterwards.....Not breaking, not trying?.......Just remember racing on asphalt is for pussies.....Dirt, for farmers...Bring something out for a 5 mile circle race, on the water, be the ONLY MOPAR there, and tell me we don't try hard enough:D

[speedymopars]

Twice, both times I used new lifters with an old cam....Oh, and they were both MOPARS.:sqeyes: I have seen alot more failures, too many too count, and have tried to clean up other peoples messes afterwards.....Not breaking, not trying?.......Just remember racing on asphalt is for pussies.....Dirt, for farmers...Bring something out for a 5 mile circle race, on the water, be the ONLY MOPAR there, and tell me we don't try hard enough:D
The times I did it, used lots of assy lube, STP, changed the oil - kept it between 2500 and 3500 varying the rpm to make sure the cam was hit wth oil on all surfaces...I'm not lucky, so I don't think it was blind chance. Maybe todays oils with the lack of lubricants makes this impossible now.
For your enjoyment

[ol guy]

I have done the old cam new lifters, new cam old lifters and never had a cam go flat! Parts inspection is the first start. CAM a good even wear patern is the first clue, also all lobes looking the same and even in color says cam be ok. LIFTERS straight edge tells that story, all hyd and solid lifters have a convex surface. Also look for the hardening dimple on the lifter surface. OIL, Valvoline racing oil is the only way to go. I have ran Kendall, Castrol, Delo and others and the best results I have found is the old reliable. PROPER valve adjust is the last little bit. If you can't do it , get someone that can. Most cams I have seen go flat are because of wrong oil and break-in oil or improper initial lash adjustment. M

[Sleeper CP]

For what it's worth I have put new hyd lifter's on old cam's four times. 3 smblk Fords and 1 318 Mopar for a friend. They all lived so it is possiable as old guy said pre install inspection is very important and so is a little luck;)
Sleeper Cp
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[steelcomp]

I think just because it's been done, and done successfully dosen't mean you should advise someone to do it. I say do it at your own risk. I did it once on a performance solid flat...cam looked pristine, bought new Comp solids, breaak in proceedure, the whole thing. Cam went flat before the day was over. Ended up having to tear the whole thing apart to inspect and clean/flush. Here again, it was probably the application. Big cam w/ big springs (even took out the center springs for break-in). Since we're talking flat tappet cams here, which are relatively inexpensive, and you're already buying new lifters, why would you risk running a bunch of foreign material and having to do a complete tear down to try and save an extra $75 to a couple hundred bucks? I personally would never advise anyone to even consider it.

[Moneypitt]

I'll save all my old camshafts/lifters for you guys. Believe me, the first time you re install a motorhome engine and flatten a cam, will be the last time you use a worn cam and new lifters.....Just the very nature of new lifters, and worn lobes, doesn't match up. I doubt many here even have the equipment to measure the convexity of a new lifter, then try to measure the convexity of the used lobe. If they don't match damn near perfectly the lifter is only touching the high on the lobe and it WILL flatten it.....And yes, I have the equipment to measure both, that is why I'll never do it again......Kinda like measuring the arc of a prop and figuring out the actual pitch. Trying to match the worn side radii of the lobes, all 16 of them, and measuring the arc of the lifter convexity, freshly machine ground, matched to that arc aint gonna happen......Like I said, I'll let all my worn cams go real cheap, hell, I'll even throw in a set of new lifters.....Call for grinds and applications available......Oh, WAIT I threw them all away...........Cause they're useless to me............MP

[speedymopars]

Yes - your mileage will vary, and you will always take the risk no matter what you do.
The penalty for failure in a Chevy is greater, that unfiltered rear main will get wiped out with contaminats that wouldn't affect a Ford or Mopar.
Just for reference, here is a set of hughes lifters and the Mopar Big block config - On a chevy, the cam isn't exposed, therefore no oil from the top end hits it. On a BB Mopar the oil from each valve pair drops down a channel onto the top of the lifter pair, which in turn oils the top of the cam. This is in addition to the windage splash from the rods (which have a squirt hole to get the cylinders and the bottom of the cam).
These photos are for reference only, and may help explain why I have done it successfully, but and not an indication or reccomendation you should do it yourself.

[2manymustangs]

I read somewhere that buying a used hydraulic non-roller cam is a waist of money because the cam is likely to go flat quickly if installed in a different block. Is this true?
How about used roller (solid or hydraulic) cam and lifters, can they be swapped into a different block without problems? Does each lifter need to stay with it's previously run on cam lobe? Are there wear patterns on roller cams and roller lifters?
Roller cams and their req.'d parts are expensive new and I see a lot of used roller stuff for sale, WHAT'S THE DEAL?
Thanks!
If it's a roller RUN EM!

[hotbo]

im no guru by any means but have done several engines with old cams and new lifters and they work great never once have i ever heard or had a cam go flat using new lifters on a old flat tappet cam:idea: maybe im just really lucky or was taught right the first time around:D

[jetboatperformance]

im no guru by any means but have done several engines with old cams and new lifters and they work great never once have i ever heard or had a cam go flat using new lifters on a old flat tappet cam:idea: maybe im just really lucky or was taught right the first time around:D
I've always heard this as well and know lots of folks (respected machinist and builders) that are comfortable with this practice and I respect that decision ,but once we take a flat tapppet cam out (unless I keep same lifters on same lobes in same block) particularly important if the motor had any kind of metal partical generating catastrophic failure ,just my 02 :idea: Tom

[ol guy]

Cam lobes are ground flat, be it solid,hydraulic or roller. Lifters on a solid or hydraulic are convex at cam mating surface. This why lifters spin in the bores. This is also why roller cam set-ups want to screw in or out of a block requiring thrust plates and so on. Back to my original post on this subject, parts inspection is the key to whether or not it will fail. Also a clean lubricant without remnants of last failure still are still in the system adds a problem. If anyone has been around the rebuilding of engines business you learn real qwick what will and won't. As far as having the tools to measure convexity of a lifter, Sorry never needed one. I do repair and build motors not sell parts, although I have done both when needed.M

[Moneypitt]

Cam lobes are ground flat, be it solid,hydraulic or roller. Lifters on a solid or hydraulic are convex at cam mating surface. This why lifters spin in the bores. This is also why roller cam set-ups want to screw in or out of a block requiring thrust plates and so on. Back to my original post on this subject, parts inspection is the key to whether or not it will fail. Also a clean lubricant without remnants of last failure still are still in the system adds a problem. If anyone has been around the rebuilding of engines business you learn real qwick what will and won't. As far as having the tools to measure convexity of a lifter, Sorry never needed one. I do repair and build motors not sell parts, although I have done both when needed.M
Exactly, but as a cam wears it loses that flatness. The lifter and the cam wear together, and the lifter loses some of that convexity. Replace a happily worn lifter with a new one on a happily worn lobe and they don't like each other, from the very begining. Componant hardness is also a big factor. A miss matched rockwell either way will cause excessive wear. Granted, technology has come miles in recent years, but, to me, this is like switching around worn rod bearings on a new crank with different rods.......As I said, having to do a motorhome engine twice cured me...........MP

[hotrod56cars]

Thanks for the replies! :D

[Sleeper CP]

Got to help a fellow Cajon'er
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover:D

[speedymopars]

Here is an article I found on the net talking about cams and Chevys
"Despite having gobs of horsepower and torque, the big block Chevy has one flaw that the GM engineers never fixed. It's notorious for chewing up new camshafts. Even with proper break-in procedures, experienced and professional engine builders have camshaft failures with flat lobes. This was actually the case with the first big block that was installed in project Rodent. The big block's poor oiling system and the angle at which the lifters are situated are the primary causes of this failure. Because of this, the camshaft doesn’t get enough oil and may fail at an early stage.
Fortunately, Bob Cherveny of B.C. Engineering figured out a way to correct this problem which GM should have taken care of years ago. It’s actually a quite simple design. A tube with several small holes is mounted above the camshaft and gives it a constant oil shower."
So, it IS a Chevy thing. :idea:
I will have to revise my thinking that you can put old lifters on a new cam in a Chevy. It sounds like you can't even put a new cam and new lifters in a chevy!
In a Mopar (and I assume Ford also judging from the comments above) you can do it. A quick browse of websites like Bigblockdart.com and moparts.com shows a lot of moparites have done this sucessfully (and the ones that failed did it to themselves by not doing a proper break in - IE, low rpm break-in, no assy lube, etc. basically the builders mistake).
The common comment why it works is that the lifter takes most of the wear and tear, not the cam, so a new lifter is a new wear surface that will be molded by the camshaft during break in.
Your mileage may vary - but it does explain why there are two camps.