Charges to be filed on deputy

[Biglue]

You guys remember the high speed pursuit which ended up with an airman home on leave being shot? Well the cop is going to be charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter. Usually I am behind the LEO's but in this case I think this was a complete violation of his duties and his badge. Well see what the court has to say.
Here is the story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11718775/

[Havasu Cig]

Manslaughter? It should be Murder 2 if you ask me.
You have to prove intent for a murder charge. If you watch the video there is no way they could prove it IMO. If this was not an L.E. officer it would probably be an ADW but they are going to make an example of him.
I do think it is interesting that the mainstream media is downplaying this though because of the ethnicity of the officer. If it was the other way around Sharpton and Jackson would be marching in the streets. My.02

[HMF'er]

If it was the other way around Sharpton and Jackson would be marching in the streets. My.02
Yup, haven't heard a peep out of them!

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Yup, haven't heard a peep out of them!
Of course not, it doesn't help either of their 'causes'. BTW, where exactly is Jackson's church?

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

You guys remember the high speed pursuit which ended up with an airman home on leave being shot? Well the cop is going to be charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter. Usually I am behind the LEO's but in this case I think this was a complete violation of his duties and his badge. Well see what the court has to say.
Here is the story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11718775/
They need to hang his ass!!!!! They are getting away with that sh!t lately. Its getting out of hand! He isnt any different that "tookie wilson"...........

[Havasu_Dreamin]

He isnt any different that "tookie wilson"...........
Are you serious? BTW, it was Tookie Williams.....

[little rowe boat]

I do think it is interesting that the mainstream media is downplaying this though because of the ethnicity of the officer. If it was the other way around Sharpton and Jackson would be marching in the streets. My.02
Boy isn't that the freaking truth.

[MagicMtnDan]

Imagine what would have happened if there wasn't a video tape of this shooting. Maybe the guy would have been shot 4 times (when the deputy realized three shots didn't kill him)!
I wish they would hang the bastard. I have high expectations for LEO and support them completely but when they cross over the line and abuse their power and the rights of people then it's a whole 'nother story.
The next a-holes to get what's coming to them are the LEOs that were brutalizing and robbing drug dealers for years.

[C-2]

Tough call for sure, it will be interesting to see how it unfolds. I personally have a hard to believing the Deputy shot the guy out of anger or rage - doesn’t make sense.
One thing is clear – the Deputy telling the guy he just shot to “shut the f* up” will not sit well with the jury.
On the civil side, it’s only a question of how much we are gonna pay the victim. That’s gonna hurt the SBDO county budget :eek: :eek:

[JB in so cal]

I think the cop is son of a chief/sheriff somewhere, as well

[Biglue]

Boy isn't that the freaking truth.
Pretty fokn sad aint it? :rolleyes: :yuk:

[Biglue]

Imagine what would have happened if there wasn't a video tape of this shooting. Maybe the guy would have been shot 4 times (when the deputy realized three shots didn't kill him)!
I wish they would hang the bastard. I have high expectations for LEO and support them completely but when they cross over the line and abuse their power and the rights of people then it's a whole 'nother story.
The next a-holes to get what's coming to them are the LEOs that were brutalizing and robbing drug dealers for years.
Sad part about that shit is the drug dealers will probably cry and sue. I can just see them using the legal system they themselves worked outside of to get what they want. :cool:

[460 jus getn it]

They need to hang his ass!!!!! They are getting away with that sh!t lately. Its getting out of hand! He isnt any different that "tookie wilson"...........
ps....its williams.....................awww hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[steve d]

You have to prove intent for a murder charge. If you watch the video there is no way they could prove it IMO. If this was not an L.E. officer it would probably be an ADW but they are going to make an example of him.
I do think it is interesting that the mainstream media is downplaying this though because of the ethnicity of the officer. If it was the other way around Sharpton and Jackson would be marching in the streets. My.02
Think there's any correlation between this and the jail riots?

[CA Stu]

It would be pretty hard to try the deputy for "Murder 2", seeing how the guy he shot survived. :)
That said, I agree with the sentiment. Fry that bastard.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Ziggy]

I'm not really up on this issue completely........but who, what or why was this guy even in the position to be confronted by a cop? Was he with bad company to begin with?? If I remember the guy who got shot was MP??? yes?? No??
Why hang with bad people when you're suppose to be a good person?Not condoning him being shot whatsoever but if you're hanging with creeps LEO tend to treat you that way.

[Havasu Cig]

Think there's any correlation between this and the jail riots?
No... I worked the jails for three years and the riots were usually a result of $hit rolling down to county from the State prisons. Mexican Mafia and BGF having problems in the State pen will cause problems in County as an example.
BTW, I think this Deputy just screwed up. I don't think there was any intent involved. I hate to judge without being there (because I have been unfairly judged as well) but the tape looks pretty bad. He will be dealt with harshly by the legal system though, as he should.

[Havasu Cig]

I'm not really up on this issue completely........but who, what or why was this guy even in the position to be confronted by a cop? Was he with bad company to begin with?? If I remember the guy who got shot was MP??? yes?? No??
Why hang with bad people when you're suppose to be a good person?Not condoning him being shot whatsoever but if you're hanging with creeps LEO tend to treat you that way.
I have heard that there was a pursuit before the shooting. Definitely makes you wonder what the guy might have been involved in, but the shooting still does not look good.

[MagicMtnDan]

I'm not really up on this issue completely........but who, what or why was this guy even in the position to be confronted by a cop? Was he with bad company to begin with?? If I remember the guy who got shot was MP??? yes?? No??
Why hang with bad people when you're suppose to be a good person?Not condoning him being shot whatsoever but if you're hanging with creeps LEO tend to treat you that way.
You should try and read the story, get the facts, and definitely watch the video.
Yes, he was an MP back from Iraq. He was with a guy who was driving a Corvette and was being pursued by LEO's.
In the video tape you see the victim on the ground talking (nicely) to the deputy who ultimately orders him to stand up and then, for no apparent reason at all, shoots him 3 times!
Based on the video, there's no obvious justification for shooting this serviceman.

[Ziggy]

You should try and read the story, get the facts, and definitely watch the video.
Yes, he was an MP back from Iraq. He was with a guy who was driving a Corvette and was being pursued by LEO's.
In the video tape you see the victim on the ground talking (nicely) to the deputy who ultimately orders him to stand up and then, for no apparent reason at all, shoots him 3 times!
Based on the video, there's no obvious justification for shooting this serviceman.
I'm not downplaying the fact he was shot and how...that part I saw clearly. I question why this serviceman that carried a badge himself was with such filth to begin with and put himself in the predicament.
No matter how you look at this, its affected lives adversely. We're taught to trust LEO but instances like this and the CHP guy who preyed on young girls on the internet and numerous others are counterproductive to social trust in LEO...its very unfortunate.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

ps....its williams.....................awww hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Are you serious? BTW, it was Tookie Williams.....
Williams,wilson or whatever the f**k his name is. You suckers know what I mean:D

[Kilrtoy]

Put yourself in his shoes...
Remember he did not get a chance to ENHANCE the light, he did not get a chance to review the persons actions 100's of times before he made his decisions.
He was in a FELONY situation with unknown persons. He gave a suspect involved in a FELONY the opportunity to do the correct thing. The SUSPECT reached into or towards his inner jacket.
AT THIS POINT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????????????????????

[Keyser]

Put yourself in his shoes...
Remember he did not get a chance to ENHANCE the light, he did not get a chance to review the persons actions 100's of times before he made his decisions.
He was in a FELONY situation with unknown persons. He gave a suspect involved in a FELONY the opportunity to do the correct thing. The SUSPECT reached into or towards his inner jacket.
AT THIS POINT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????????????????????
If it were me in that situation like Kilrtoy described, BANG!!!!
A few friends of mine had dads who were cops and they said the main thing that runs through their minds was making sure to go home at the end of the shift. You cant see much from that tape, and you dont truly know wat that deputy saw. Just my .02

[MagicMtnDan]

Put yourself in his shoes...
Remember he did not get a chance to ENHANCE the light, he did not get a chance to review the persons actions 100's of times before he made his decisions.
He was in a FELONY situation with unknown persons. He gave a suspect involved in a FELONY the opportunity to do the correct thing. The SUSPECT reached into or towards his inner jacket.
AT THIS POINT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????????????????????
Please Kilrtoy. I respect your need to support fellow LEO's but don't defend this guy's actions. They were reprehensible and thankfully the guy survived being shot three times while getting up as instructed by the deputy.

[Kilrtoy]

Please Kilrtoy. I respect your need to support fellow LEO's but don't defend this guy's actions. They were reprehensible and thankfully the guy survived being shot three times while getting up as instructed by the deputy.
REALLY Dan, I have seen the video. Not the cut video, not the lower portion video, just the straight enhanced video.
TODAY ALL THE NEWS COVERAGE OF IT, COVERS OR DELETES THE LOWER PORTION OF THIS TAPE THAT CLEARLY SHOWS HIS HAND DOING WHAT I DESCRIBED.
Im not defending his actions. Im giving you a clearer perspective than the news is willing to show you....

[Brooski]

Is the video available for any of us to see on the internet? If that is the way it went down, the jury shouldnt have too hard of a time making the right decision.

[Havasu Cig]

Put yourself in his shoes...
Remember he did not get a chance to ENHANCE the light, he did not get a chance to review the persons actions 100's of times before he made his decisions.
He was in a FELONY situation with unknown persons. He gave a suspect involved in a FELONY the opportunity to do the correct thing. The SUSPECT reached into or towards his inner jacket.
AT THIS POINT WHAT WOULD YOU DO?????????????????????
Good points, IMO he should have kept the suspects on the ground and froze the situation until help arrived. I have been in situations like this more than a few times (usually after a vehicle crashed that I was pursuing) where you are by yourself for a couple of minutes.
I would make it very clear that everyone needs to prone out face down with there arms at their side (or if they are in the vehicle to remain in the vehicle with their hands visible), and also let it be known that they would be shot if they moved. But you are right as far as not knowing what was going through the Dep's mind at the time, and that will play a big part in what happens to him.

[Biglue]

Good points, IMO he should have kept the suspects on the ground and froze the situation until help arrived. I have been in situations like this more than a few times (usually after a vehicle crashed that I was pursuing) where you are by yourself for a couple of minutes.
I would make it very clear that everyone needs to prone out face down with there arms at their side (or if they are in the vehicle to remain in the vehicle with their hands visible), and also let it be known that they would be shot if they moved. But you are right as far as not knowing what was going through the Dep's mind at the time, and that will play a big part in what happens to him.
There you go. How can anyone ask the guy to get up? He was secure on the ground AT GUN POINT. Why would you ask him to get up if it wasnt to get in a good shot. I'm sorry to say, but I feel this guy had no business behind a badge and the the public depending on him. Makes about as sick as the Rafael Perez and rampart scandal a few years ago.

[C-2]

Be interesting to see what type of report he filed :idea: :idea:
Too me it seems illogical he would blatantly shoot the guy. I think they're gonna have a hard time getting a conviction. Clearly he was negligent in his actions.
Gotta remember - anytime an LE case goes in front of a jury, it''s usually split down the middle - about half the people support LE; the other can't stand them. In a criminal trial, need all parties onboard for a conviction. Civil only a majority.

[Biglue]

Be interesting to see what type of report he filed :idea: :idea:
Too me it seems illogical he would blatantly shoot the guy. I think they're gonna have a hard time getting a conviction. Clearly he was negligent in his actions.
Gotta remember - anytime an LE case goes in front of a jury, it''s usually split down the middle - about half the people support LE; the other can't stand them. In a criminal trial, need all parties onboard for a conviction. Civil only a majority.
Dont get me wrong. I'm usually cheering behind the LEO's in these cases. If you run you deserve a little roughing up. Cops will not be "gentle" taking a perp in. Not a problem. I have a really bad problem with people no better than gang bangers behind the badge. I believe this guy could be one of those types of cops. Who knows I may be wrong.

[Dave C]

the poor guy made a mistake in a stressful situation. It looks like his nerves got the better of him. He was negligent but there was no intent.
Remember we authorize cops to use deadly force for their own protection. This guy was fearful of something it just turns out he was wrong. It just a shame that his mistake led to this.
the perp is partially culpable here too.
He should be punished but it should be a light punishment especially if he is remorseful.
this is why I'm glad I'm not a cop. One mistake like this and you're screwed.

[MagicMtnDan]

One mistake like this and you're screwed.
One mistake like this and someone gets shot which, in my book, is worse than getting suspended, fired or on trial.

[Havasu Cig]

There you go. How can anyone ask the guy to get up? He was secure on the ground AT GUN POINT.
I don't know, it might come back to training. The way I was trained, and trained others was you hold the scene if possible with the suspects on the ground, in the vehicle etc... Once cover arrives you have one Deputy cuff the suspects while another Deputy or Multiple Deputies cover with a weapon. After the suspects are secured you check for weapons then detain until you figure out what you have.
That being said, I don't think this Deputy told the guy to get up so he could shoot him. I think it was just a judgement call, and maybe a bad one. Unless you have been in a situation like that you have no idea what it is like. It is not like Television. Your pumped from the pursuit and it is hard to remain calm in the moments right after it ends.

[Ziggy]

. It is not like Television. Your pumped from the pursuit and it is hard to remain calm in the moments right after it ends.
Moral of it all is don't run from the cops or else you'll have pumped up LEO to worry about.......
I have a few friends that are police and know the dangers they confront on a daily basis. I have nothing but respect for cops because they are doing a dangerous job 99% of the people would never consider.

[Get415]

ya the tape doesn't look good and there has to be a reason behind sqeezing the trigger. i cant see anybody blatenly shooting someone just because and risking your home,family,job,etc...We dont know his thoughts at the time the pursuit terminated. maybe he saw something we couldn't see from the video, or... maybe he just f-'d up...In either case i would love to have all the people critisizing him with all the "he should haves", get into a simulator- your riding alone, high speed pursuit, a big crash, your adrenaline is through the roof, now you get out of your car and deal with some clown who decides he is going to challenge you... you have your gun pointed at him and are giving commands. he charges at you (no weapons visible), and your gun is out. What would you do... make sure its within policy and that you survive.
i know that isn't the scenario but food for thought. it happens daily
Oh and be able to articulate every action.

[Scream]

The deputy was absolutely wrong, and should/will be dealt with. Put into perspective the fact that he had just chased these guys and they apparantly landed into a pole/fence (according to news info). That's gotta play hell with the adrenaline I would think, and when your adrenaline is that pumped up, you aren't thinkin right. I don't know alot about this particular deputy, but it appeared to me that he was clearly excited and not necessarily in control of himself at the time.
As for our expectations with LE, it's interesting to see the two faces of the general public. Years ago, the public perception of police was that they were infallable beings, all knowing, benevolent and trustworthy to a fault. Nowadays it seems we're bombarded with news stories about corruption, evidence tampering, witness intimidation and the like...not a very rosey picture. What we don't see are the thousands of positive things that LEO's do on a daily basis.
What is it we want from these super beings. Do we think that they will be incapable if mistakes? I've been guilty of this before, and probably still am. Cops are human too, and humans make mistakes. Thats just a fact of life that, no matter how much training you have, what profession you're in, or what situation arises, mistakes can and will happen. I believe that for the most part, our Law Enforcement personnel are above the fray and sever the community at large very well.
/offsoapbox
Scream <---just piping in

[Dave C]

NO SHIAT... I would love to try that simulator the police have. I understand they try to trick you.
I bet I would probably plug a few innocents on that simulator as would everyone else.
In either case i would love to have all the people critisizing him with all the "he should haves", get into a simulator- your riding alone, high speed pursuit, a big crash, your adrenaline is through the roof, now you get out of your car and deal with some clown who decides he is going to challenge you... .

[Dave C]

thats not my point. I mean that job puts you into those life and death situations and these difficult decisions must be made. Luckily we don't have that problem in our job. ;) (at least I don't)
I don't believe there was intent to commit a crime rather it was a mistake.... which sucks for Both parties involved...
you know the type of mistake that you could kick yourself over for being so dumb.. I would hope the officer was remorseful afterwards.
One mistake like this and someone gets shot which, in my book, is worse than getting suspended, fired or on trial.

[Biglue]

thats not my point. I mean that job puts you into those life and death situations and these difficult decisions must be made. Luckily we don't have that problem in our job. ;) (at least I don't)
I don't believe there was intent to commit a crime rather it was a mistake.... which sucks for Both parties involved...
you know the type of mistake that you could kick yourself over for being so dumb.. I would hope the officer was remorseful afterwards.
The airman was telling him he would cooperate. He tried to clarify he was an MP officer. He was ordered to get up. I can relate to the adrenaline part but like it was mentioned above. Secure the suspects, wait for help and secure the scene. To me it seems like sheer negligence if not deliberate. Come on man, you dont play with someone's life like that. Had the guy actually produced a weapon or lunged at him, there would be no questions asked. It will be up to the jury. Only those people really know what their intentions were.
Ziggy I agree with the part about running from LEOs. The thing is this dude was a passenger, not the driver. He was not in complete control of his situation.

[PHOTOGLOU]

He has been CAUGHT on tape abusing his badge before.... How many times did he abuse his power and not get caught???

[Dave C]

you guys are harse (not that its a bad thing ;) )
yes I agree it was negligence.... especially if he didn't follow proper procedure.
It seems it wasn't intentional rather a mistake. A punishable mistake but a mistake nonetheless.
But WTF do we know, let him have his day in court.
The airman was telling him he would cooperate. He tried to clarify he was an MP officer. He was ordered to get up. I can relate to the adrenaline part but like it was mentioned above. Secure the suspects, wait for help and secure the scene. To me it seems like sheer negligence if not deliberate. Come on man, you dont play with someone's life like that. Had the guy actually produced a weapon or lunged at him, there would be no questions asked. It will be up to the jury. Only those people really know what their intentions were.
Ziggy I agree with the part about running from LEOs. The thing is this dude was a passenger, not the driver. He was not in complete control of his situation.

[C-2]

The airman was telling him he would cooperate. He tried to clarify he was an MP officer. He was ordered to get up. I can relate to the adrenaline part but like it was mentioned above. Secure the suspects, wait for help and secure the scene. To me it seems like sheer negligence if not deliberate. Come on man, you dont play with someone's life like that. Had the guy actually produced a weapon or lunged at him, there would be no questions asked. It will be up to the jury. Only those people really know what their intentions were.
Ziggy I agree with the part about running from LEOs. The thing is this dude was a passenger, not the driver. He was not in complete control of his situation.
The airman should have kept quiet - I wondered if he said anything about being an MP. Not good in a situation like that.
------
A few years back a neighbor was getting his car repo'd at 3:00 pm (yes, afternoon). My neighbor was a cop, heard it going down and confronted the repo guys. My neighbor told the repo guys he had his service revolver in the car. The repo guy freaks, runs to my door and asks to call 911. Repo guy tells 911 operator the cop has a gun. WHAT? I grab the phone from the shaking repo guy and tell the 911 operator the guy is an off duty cop with a gun in the car, not on him. I kick the repo guy out of my house, telling him he made a big mistake. Sure enough, about 5 minutes later, the calvary arrives and takes everybody down at gunpoint - including a husband/wife who had just started walking their dog and were simply passing by.
--------
Moral of the story - sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut until the dust settles.

[Kilrtoy]

Come on man, you dont play with someone's life like that. .
The airman MP, loser did...... It was his choice
Ziggy I agree with the part about running from LEOs. The thing is this dude was a passenger, not the driver. He was not in complete control of his situation.
how do you know the driver wasnt scared of the MP and the Mp airman was telling the driver to flee the scene.... YOU DONT

[Biglue]

The airman MP, loser did...... It was his choice
how do you know the driver wasnt scared of the MP and the Mp airman was telling the driver to flee the scene.... YOU DONT
I'm not defending the actions of the Airman or the driver. I have said over and over YOU SHOULD NOT RUN FROM COPS.
And the 2nd part of your post is fairly far fetched. He is a family man home on leave. Granted the officer does not know that. How do YOU know he was not dreading the worst being at gun point by this cop. Look at the outcome....shot 3 times.
You are a cop yourself. Why would you ask him to get up if you have him secure laid out on the floor in front of you (once again) AT GUN POINT.
Does it make sense to you?

[Kilrtoy]

I'm not defending the actions of the Airman or the driver. I have said over and over YOU SHOULD NOT RUN FROM COPS.
And the 2nd part of your post is fairly far fetched. He is a family man home on leave. Granted the officer does not know that. How do YOU know he was not dreading the worst being at gun point by this cop. Look at the outcome....shot 3 times.
You are a cop yourself. Why would you ask him to get up if you have him secure laid out on the floor in front of you (once again) AT GUN POINT.
Does it make sense to you?
The second part of my post is no more far fetched than your post, this poor innocent family man who is the military on leave from a war. Shall I continue.... he made choices that night, i dont know about you ro him, but I DONT HANG OUT WITH SHIT BAGS.....So with that said, i will never be in that situation to giove you a correct response on what I would do. As far as the deputy, it would appear he may have used VERY VERY BAD AND POOR TACTICS that caused this shooting to occur. But then again, I said It would appear, not saying that is true either...

[Biglue]

The second part of my post is no more far fetched than your post, this poor innocent family man who is the military on leave from a war. Shall I continue.... he made choices that night, i dont know about you ro him, but I DONT HANG OUT WITH SHIT BAGS.....So with that said, i will never be in that situation to giove you a correct response on what I would do. As far as the deputy, it would appear he may have used VERY VERY BAD AND POOR TACTICS that caused this shooting to occur. But then again, I said It would appear, not saying that is true either...
Never made him out to be a "poor" innocent victim. The family man anology was made to argue the perception I saw as far fetched. So we agree IT WOULD APPEAR that the officer "messed up".

[Kilrtoy]

Never made him out to be a "poor" innocent victim. The family man anology was made to argue the perception I saw as far fetched. So we agree IT WOULD APPEAR that the officer "messed up".
I will say that he may have used poor tactics, but I do not know SBSO tactics....

[little rowe boat]

but I do not know SBSO tactics....
It appears shoot first.

[Racer277]

Tookie was a filthy murderer.
This guy is much worse.
He is a filthy murderer using authority we gave him to wear a badge.
As for who you hang out with, that's funny.
2 years ago at Jawbone canyon, we had a pair of SO's come into camp.
We had heard shooting a few miles away all day. Maybe 2 hours after it stopped these two roll up. I'm thinking no biggie, I'm in the camp of a couple of BPD...
They demand (not ask) to enter the trailers to search for firearms. When one BPD guys say no, one enters anyway, the other watches all of us, hand on weapon. He finds no weapons (didn't look long), but decides to ticket some of the bikes that were inside the trailers.
During this time, they are ID'ing themselves, the searching SO doesn't care.
After tickets are issued with no apologies, the first SO gets in his car, second SO apologizes for everything (they still got tickets-ha ha).
I felt very vindicated, and let them know how much worse their rights would have been violated had they not been LEO's.
I never wonder why people run from the cops. They feel they have a better chance with more public cameras on them...

[THE WIDGE]

I don't know, it might come back to training. The way I was trained, and trained others was you hold the scene if possible with the suspects on the ground, in the vehicle etc... Once cover arrives you have one Deputy cuff the suspects while another Deputy or Multiple Deputies cover with a weapon. After the suspects are secured you check for weapons then detain until you figure out what you have.
That being said, I don't think this Deputy told the guy to get up so he could shoot him. I think it was just a judgement call, and maybe a bad one. Unless you have been in a situation like that you have no idea what it is like. It is not like Television. Your pumped from the pursuit and it is hard to remain calm in the moments right after it ends.
I agree with Cig, this may have been a training issue. First, I see a lot of opinions on this matter; however I ask you, have you been in this situation?
Yes, the tape does not look good, and remember the media will always put a spin on things for exposure. But after you been chasing someone at speeds reported at over 100 mph, and while your are pursuing you must think, why is this guy running. Does he have a gun, parole at large (PAL), that is part of your training and your survival mode. The car crashes and comes to an abrupt stop. At this point you get pumped even higher because he may run or shoot, which neither happened, however you are very high.
This is where it comes down to training. He should have waited for the calvery; however how may times have you see a pursuit come to an end, and you see a single cop run up to the car and pull the guy out. I can almost guarantee this was not how the offcier was trained, at least in SoCal. But this happens because of the pump.And then some guys shouting, and yes we know what is being said because we're not up, and we've seen it a dozen times.
This probably got the Deputy up even more, just shut up and stay still.
I don't know what caused this guy to shoot, but you must understand his mind set to get a clear understanding of the facts before you judge and make outrageous statements! I highly doubt he shot him on purpose. I think he made a big mistake, a mistake that was made in less than a second.
There where three victims in this case.
1. the airman, 2. the officer, he must live with this mistake forever, and 3. LE in general regardless if the shooting was justified.

[LOWRIVER2]

Whatever opinion ANYONE has, it's gonna be up to 12 people to decide what the verdict will be.
I'm sitting this one out, (I have a garage to build) but I will say there is no way any D.A. can show intent, hence the charge they filed will be based on negligence.
Oh, and P.S.
JetBoatBrian, your ride along has been revoked, don't bother contacting me whenever you come to Ca.,
enough said
Low-seeing people's real colors again-River

[my21advantage]

The issue of whether forced used by a police officer against a citizen is excessive requires a thorough analysis of the facts and circumstances known to the police officer at the time when the force is used.
1. the severity of the crime;
2. the nature and extent of the threat posed by the suspect;
3. the degree to which the suspect resists arrest or detention; and
4. any attepmts by the suspect to evade arrest by flight.
Courts (and citizens) should consider the reasonablemess of the force used from the perspective of the reasonableness of the police officer and not use hindsight.

[my21advantage]

Would you rather be Judged by 12....
OR CARRIED BY SIX.... :idea: :idea:

[Nicked prop]

Anyone, no make that everyone, that hangs around with bad guys that break traffic laws ought to be shot. Especially if they have the nerve to cooperate with the arresting officer. Now if the guy hadn't cooperated, the cop and five or six of his buddies could have just beat the hell out of him. Then the city could have given him a few million bucks and sent him on his way.

[Kilrtoy]

The issue of whether forced used by a police officer against a citizen is excessive requires a thorough analysis of the facts and circumstances known to the police officer at the time when the force is used.
1. the severity of the crime;
2. the nature and extent of the threat posed by the suspect;
3. the degree to which the suspect resists arrest or detention; and
4. any attepmts by the suspect to evade arrest by flight.
Courts (and citizens) should consider the reasonablemess of the force used from the perspective of the reasonableness of the police officer and not use hindsight.
Sounds like a future Chief talking to me....

[LURKER808]

That deputy is FUC*&^%%ED!!! Holy Sh(*&!
You guys remember the high speed pursuit which ended up with an airman home on leave being shot? Well the cop is going to be charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter. Usually I am behind the LEO's but in this case I think this was a complete violation of his duties and his badge. Well see what the court has to say.
Here is the story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11718775/

[my21advantage]

Sounds like a future Chief talking to me....
Or a use of force instructor
I have something scary to tell you.....check your pm's

[Nicked prop]

Here we go again. The code of silence to protect the thin blue line.

[Havasu Cig]

Here we go again. The code of silence to protect the thin blue line.
You have not idea what you are talking about. The so called "Code Of Silence" for the most part is a thing of the past. I had a very good group of guys that I worked with that had my back at all times, but most people will not put their career's on the line and lie to protect another officer.
Internal Affairs is very pro-active these days and will burn a cop in a heart beat. IMO most of the people that I knew that worked I.A. were a bunch of jerk off's that were never good street cops and they loved to make their bones by getting back at the ones they perceived as being too aggressive.
It is topics like this that make me glad I am no longer in L.E. I have sat in front of a jury defending myself because of bull$hit lies that were made by a dirtback trying to get some money from the county, and it is tough to sit there and listen to the $hit being said about you. I never lost a lawsuit in the 11 years I was on the job, but just having to go through the $hit is tough.
Another thing I will say is that IMO there are more shootings now because L.E. officers in some cases are afraid to use any force because of the possible consequences (sp) that could occur. Because of this they let an incident escalate to the point to where a shooting occurs and it might have been able to have been avoided. As soon as a situation started to go sideways I always took immediate action to end the threat, and I took some heat for it from I.A. at times.
I also had more than a few situations where I could have pulled the trigger and did not. I went through a federal lawsuit for more than two years where I could have shot the suspect and did not. What thanks did I get from the guy? a lawsuit! He claimed all kinds of bull$hit, and had his 12 year old daighter lie for him in court. They also tried the race card because he was black. The guy threw a coffee maker at my head in his kitchen on a 911 call, and luckily it was plugged in and did not hit me. In training that is a shoot situation, but I did not shoot. The guy ends up giving up after a couple of minutes, and I could not approach him prior because he had several knives next to him. No force was used on him, but the next thing you know he is claiming that I pulled a Rodney King on him with no injuries to show for it. This is just one of many incidents. It is a thankless job, but Like I was told in the Academy if you want people to think you are a hero go be a Firefighter instead.

[Dave C]

Also think about the families of the two CHP officers in norcal who were killed in the line of duty recently during a traffic stop by a POS that was carrying a concealed weapon.
You cops have a tough and dangerous job and thankless job as well.

[THE WIDGE]

Here we go again. The code of silence to protect the thin blue line.
YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!! The only code we have is to protect each others back and make sure you go home at night. And during the couse of it all we will be protecting even the people that may one day harm us, and make rediculous comments as yours.
As Cig said, IA is proactive, and these are no loger the days of the past, pre Rodey. It is not worth it to me to lye, loose my job, house, and since we are on hot boat, MY BOAT!
This is a thank less job, but it is rewarding, and it is a price to pay to help my fellow man.

[Nicked prop]

"you got my back" in action. In the not too distant past, I'd hoist a few at the Camel's Breath. Quite a few SD LEO (city and county) would frequent the place; and not to perform inspections of kitchen sanitation. After getting tanked enough to loudly (and stupidly) brag about exploits that would get us commoners shot or beaten by a badge carrier, they'd slide behind the wheel and roll out of the parking lot right past an on-duty that "had their back". Hard to believe the only incompetents on the force were squirreled away in IA. And thanks for the offer to protect me, but I'd prefer you stay out of the way and let me and my .45 take care of business. That way neither you nor I will get hurt and we'll both go home to our families.
While I may not have a clue, looks like you don't have enough vowels or consonants and you could really use a dictionary. And I'm sure I'm also wrong about that "code of silence" thing. Any minute now My21 is going to post up that "scary" info he privately shared with Toy and only did so because Toy is also LEO. Wait a minute, maybe I'm not so wrong after all. Seems Cig even admits the "Code of Silence" exists when he calls it "mostly a thing of the past". Too bad he couldn't have said it's "entirely a thing of the past". Nonetheless, I'll give him credit for honesty.
Oh, yeah were originally talking about a SF (that's Security Forces to you civilians) who just returned from Iraq and was shot while he was doing what the arresting officer told him to do. Ironic that he went to a country to help citizens there avoid the very thing he was subjected to after returning to the good old USA. In further irony, we have soldiers in battle getting more highly publicized heat (Lt Pantano, for instance) for shooting the enemy on a battlefield than LEO gets for popping an evader's passenger on a city street. Yeah, you've got a tough job, you're overworked, underpaid, and nobody gives you the respect you deserve. I get the same story from my sister-in-law, the school teacher. Now put that doughnut down and go write another parking ticket.

[Kilrtoy]

NP, dont drag me into your pissing contest,
and Myad just pm'd me to say he was about to get a promotion. OOOPS, that is what friends do, chat with each other. So what is your point....Cuz im missing it

[Jbb]

Oh, and P.S.
JetBoatBrian, your ride along has been revoked, don't bother contacting me whenever you come to Ca.,
enough said
Low-seeing people's real colors again-River
um.......ok

[Nicked prop]

I figured the scary news had to do with the cop shooting a guy that was laying on the ground since that was the topic. Don't tell me that scary news about a promotion means the cream isn't rising to the top. I'd be shocked if that were the case.

[Havasu Cig]

NP, I said that it was mostly a thing of the past because things still do happen and people still lie about them (and people get fired if they are caught), but they are rare now. I started in the early 90's and retired a couple years ago and things have really changed in just the time I was on. You hear stories from the guys who worked back in the 60's and 70's and it is a whole different world now.
As far as your comments about the military, I served in the United States Army in Iraq in combat. Being so close to the Marine and Navy bases here in S.D. a majority of the guys I worked with were ex military (mostly marines). A number of my beat partners were combat veterans and have been over to Iraq recently as a member of the reserves. Having said all that, the fact that the suspect who was shot was a member of the military has no relevence (sp) in this case. I have dealt with both good and bad military people. At the time of the incident he should have just kept his mouth shut. If I am contacted by L.E. now (or when I was still on) I did not come right out start saying I was a cop. Actually it makes me suspicious that he was so eager to let the Deputy know this fact. Like I said he should have just kept his mouth shut until the dust had settled.
One last thing, I respect your opinion but if you think it is as easy as picking up your .45 when something goes down you are mistaken. Fire power takes a back seat to training and experience when it comes to a life and death situation. This was true when I was in the military and L.E. This is the reason L.E. usually wins in a firefight and not the dumbass crooks who emulate (sp) what they see in movies. My.02 again. :cool:

[THE WIDGE]

"you got my back" in action. In the not too distant past, I'd hoist a few at the Camel's Breath. Quite a few SD LEO (city and county) would frequent the place; and not to perform inspections of kitchen sanitation. After getting tanked enough to loudly (and stupidly) brag about exploits that would get us commoners shot or beaten by a badge carrier, they'd slide behind the wheel and roll out of the parking lot right past an on-duty that "had their back". Hard to believe the only incompetents on the force were squirreled away in IA. And thanks for the offer to protect me, but I'd prefer you stay out of the way and let me and my .45 take care of business. That way neither you nor I will get hurt and we'll both go home to our families.
While I may not have a clue, looks like you don't have enough vowels or consonants and you could really use a dictionary. And I'm sure I'm also wrong about that "code of silence" thing. Any minute now My21 is going to post up that "scary" info he privately shared with Toy and only did so because Toy is also LEO. Wait a minute, maybe I'm not so wrong after all. Seems Cig even admits the "Code of Silence" exists when he calls it "mostly a thing of the past". Too bad he couldn't have said it's "entirely a thing of the past". Nonetheless, I'll give him credit for honesty.
Oh, yeah were originally talking about a SF (that's Security Forces to you civilians) who just returned from Iraq and was shot while he was doing what the arresting officer told him to do. Ironic that he went to a country to help citizens there avoid the very thing he was subjected to after returning to the good old USA. In further irony, we have soldiers in battle getting more highly publicized heat (Lt Pantano, for instance) for shooting the enemy on a battlefield than LEO gets for popping an evader's passenger on a city street. Yeah, you've got a tough job, you're overworked, underpaid, and nobody gives you the respect you deserve. I get the same story from my sister-in-law, the school teacher. Now put that doughnut down and go write another parking ticket.
Sorry, but you are way off track (NP). I tried to give you some insight on what happens to a cop during a pursuit, and at the end. I aggree that the Deputy made mistakes. But to think he did this on purpose, and with intent, I doubt it.
In regards to your code. Every career has a bad apple. And though I don't know what you do, in LE it only takes one for all of us to take the backlash. Such as the officer's who where robbing the drug dealers with obvious intent. Put them away for life.
In regaurds to you and your little friend(45). Guns are not toys, and this is not the wild west cowboy. You can't just shoot someone that breaks into your house.

[wsuwrhr]

You can't just shoot someone that breaks into your house.
Isn't that comforting?
The public has to wait for the "sworn-in loudmouths" to come save them.
Course, after they get done with their donuts, shakedowns, and other
"harassments" our POLITITIONS voted to allow them to do.
Brian

[C-2]

Alright, now this is gonna get good. :220v: :220v: :220v:

[wsuwrhr]

It's the "us against them" mentality of cops.
Makes you kinda wonder.
I have known or have been around several cops(after hours) in my life. With one exception, they were the hardest partying, loudmouth, arrogant fucs I have ever met.
Seems the same for MOST of the cops on here? 4-6? Pattern forming?
hhhhmmmm, interesting???
The one cop I know, that I still hang out with, you would NEVER know he is a cop if he didn't tell you. I like that. Good guy.
This thread is about an MP, who was a passenger in a vehicle chase, who announced himself, who was prone on the ground, obeying commands that the officer in charge was giving. He gets shot three times. Restores my trust/faith considerably
I am glad he didn't die.
Brian

[C-2]

BTW
If you haven't seen the enhanced video, it does shred a little more light (literally). No wonder the guy got blasted. Not right, but what a dumbass.

[wsuwrhr]

Alright, now this is gonna get good. :220v: :220v: :220v:
You know, I know it is a rough job, but I am so tired of hearing them cry like babies when shit gets deep.
I didn't become a cop, they did. If they can't handle the job they signed up for, that they were trained for, find something else to do ASAP.
Seems pretty simple.
I posted before about getting hurt at my job, I almost got killed. I didn't come on here whining about the rigors of my line of work. You accept the dangers just like anyone else does.
Brian

[CARRERA]

I don't know, it might come back to training. The way I was trained, and trained others was you hold the scene if possible with the suspects on the ground, in the vehicle etc... Once cover arrives you have one Deputy cuff the suspects while another Deputy or Multiple Deputies cover with a weapon. After the suspects are secured you check for weapons then detain until you figure out what you have.
That being said, I don't think this Deputy told the guy to get up so he could shoot him. I think it was just a judgement call, and maybe a bad one. Unless you have been in a situation like that you have no idea what it is like. It is not like Television. Your pumped from the pursuit and it is hard to remain calm in the moments right after it ends.
He told him to get up because it wouldn't have look to good if he shot in the back.

[wsuwrhr]

BTW
If you haven't seen the enhanced video, it does shred a little more light (literally). No wonder the guy got blasted. Not right, but what a dumbass.
I would like to see it.
Because what I saw, was very disturbing.
For the most part I don't like cops, never have, too much power and very little oversight. The oversight you do get, is after the fact, a day late and a dollar short. I am not ashamed to say so either, I am sure it is no surprise. I have posted in the past with the same story.
I am also sure there are more people here that feel this way but are afraid to voice their opinion due to the backlash.
Incidents like this have gone on forever, too much power and no oversight. Who you going to believe, the officer, or the citizen? There weren't any "credible" witnesses present except for the officers.
The video camera is a beautiful thing.
Are you allowed to knowingly videotape police activity?
Brian

[Nicked prop]

I freely admit I'm more than a little quick to get pissy when members of any group blindly defend the actions of another member simply because he's "one of us". The notion that it's okay to shoot someone because they hang out with bad guys--in this case a speeder/evader--is absurdly ridiculous. Such logic would sanction shooting cops that associate with those who are shaking down drug dealers.
I really don't watch much TV or movies, Widge, but I'm guessing the little friend comment has something to do with a line from the big screen. You'd do well to closely read and heed Cig's last post. There's quite a difference between Hollywood and reality. I do, though, appreciate you pointing out that guns are not toys. I've always wondered why the 30 or 40 I own didn't have "Mattel" stamped on them somewhere. If you'll travel beyond the borders of California you'll find that there are, indeed, states where you can shoot someone that has broken into your house. Ever hear of the state of Texas? Buy a pair of boots and take a trip there sometime. Then again, given your fascination with Hollywood you probably ran out and bought a pair after you saw "Brokeback Mountain".

[my21advantage]

I figured the scary news had to do with the cop shooting a guy that was laying on the ground since that was the topic. Don't tell me that scary news about a promotion means the cream isn't rising to the top. I'd be shocked if that were the case.
You're out of you element.....
first of all who died and made you a judge... how can you sit there and think for one second you know what you're talking about :idea:
YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE !!!!
and the info past'd to kilr' was about a promotion and I said it was "scary" b/c i'm so young. Nothing secretive around here... are you afraid you missed out?

[wsuwrhr]

The way CA is going, believe me, if it weren't so DAMN hot in August and
September, I would consider it. I have spent some time in the Lone Star state and I really liked it.
Brian
I freely admit I'm more than a little quick to get pissy when members of any group blindly defend the actions of another member simply because he's "one of us". The notion that it's okay to shoot someone because they hang out with bad guys--in this case a speeder/evader--is absurdly ridiculous. Such logic would sanction shooting cops that associate with those who are shaking down drug dealers.
I really don't watch much TV or movies, Widge, but I'm guessing the little friend comment has something to do with a line from the big screen. You'd do well to closely read and heed Cig's last post. There's quite a difference between Hollywood and reality. I do, though, appreciate you pointing out that guns are not toys. I've always wondered why the 30 or 40 I own didn't have "Mattel" stamped on them somewhere. If you'll travel beyond the borders of California you'll find that there are, indeed, states where you can shoot someone that has broken into your house. Ever hear of the state of Texas? Buy a pair of boots and take a trip there sometime. Then again, given your fascination with Hollywood you probably ran out and bought a pair after you saw "Brokeback Mountain".

[C-2]

This deputy is never gonna get convicted (actually I haven't seen the specific charges, the DA might have thrown in some fallback/less culpable charges which might stick).
They will never find 12 people who will agree his actions were entirely unreasonable.
On the civil side, however, he is fawked. Fawked mainly beacuase,as I stated earlier, just about half of us support cops, the other half can't stand them. So when they go to seat a jury, the half that doesn't care for LE (or are suspicious of them) play the game and say they are unbiased, and can set aside any personal opinions and make decisions based upon the evidence.
Sometimes they can, but more often than not, they go into that jury room with an agenda.
Kind of their way of "sticking it to the man" to quote the guy in that cellular commercial.
Just the way things are these days.

[Nicked prop]

maybe that was a future chief talking back there since you're young and on the move. I'm sure as you move up the ladder we can count on you to swiftly eliminate the bad apples and incompetents that all, even LE that have responded to this thread, admit exist on the force.

[my21advantage]

maybe that was a future chief talking back there since you're young and on the move. I'm sure as you move up the ladder we can count on you to swiftly eliminate the bad apples and incompetents that all, even LE that have responded to this thread, admit exist on the force.
You speak as if you know a thing or two about law enforcement....all I've heard is a bunch of generalizations, nothing specific.
Don't think that every officer that protects you, me and our families is corrupt because they're not. I agree there are "bad apples," but what profession doesn't have a few.
Some officers wear the badge because they are CHOSEN to not because they WANT to. It is a matter of ethics and the badge.....without either there is not public faith and no public trust and that does happen, but don't be so quick to attack people or their professions when you don't know them.

[THE WIDGE]

I freely admit I'm more than a little quick to get pissy when members of any group blindly defend the actions of another member simply because he's "one of us". The notion that it's okay to shoot someone because they hang out with bad guys--in this case a speeder/evader--is absurdly ridiculous. Such logic would sanction shooting cops that associate with those who are shaking down drug dealers.
I really don't watch much TV or movies, Widge, but I'm guessing the little friend comment has something to do with a line from the big screen. You'd do well to closely read and heed Cig's last post. There's quite a difference between Hollywood and reality. I do, though, appreciate you pointing out that guns are not toys. I've always wondered why the 30 or 40 I own didn't have "Mattel" stamped on them somewhere. If you'll travel beyond the borders of California you'll find that there are, indeed, states where you can shoot someone that has broken into your house. Ever hear of the state of Texas? Buy a pair of boots and take a trip there sometime. Then again, given your fascination with Hollywood you probably ran out and bought a pair after you saw "Brokeback Mountain".
Wow! Obviously this is getting out of hand and I have no words for your last reply. Put a little tack would be a start. I'm not here to have a pissing contest, and it appears this has gotten more personel for some and judgemental!
This will all play out in a court of law. If there is more to the story from the investigation, and evidence prove this guy was a bad seed, then good, he deserves punishment. But if this mas a mistake of the mind and not the heart, that is a different story.

[Nicked prop]

but since it's degenerated into a pissing contest I'll go ahead play along just a little longer.
1. Why is a promotion of a young guy on the force scary and if it's scary for the guy being promoted how comforting is that for the folks that are getting served and protected?
2. How does one get chosen to wear a badge and made to do it even of they don't want to (limit the answer to the country we're living in where everyone has the freedom to take the job of their choosing)?
3. If a criminal has a mistake of the mind and not the heart--say he accidently shoots someone he is robbing or he runs over someone while evading a traffic stop--is the victim any less injured/dead and is the criminal any less culpable (let's assume the criminal isn't wearing a badge)? If you're actually speaking of intent, ask a lawyer or judge how easily intent is proven in a courtroom.
I don't think every officer is corrupt or incompetent. However, it boggles my terribly small mind that those who are truly inept are steadfastly defended by those in the same line of work simply because they are in the same line of work. Cops, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. all have ready explanations for the shortcomings of their peers. Objectively read through the posts here again and you'll see the pattern.
By the way, Widge, you mean "tact" and not "tack".
With that, the needle of my "Gawd-I'm-Bored-o-meter" is spinning like that deputy's defense lawyer. Take a stab (not a shot, thank you) at answering 1-3 if you wish. Or, ignore this post. Either way I'm done.

[Kilrtoy]

but since it's degenerated into a pissing contest I'll go ahead play along just a little longer.
1. Why is a promotion of a young guy on the force scary and if it's scary for the guy being promoted how comforting is that for the folks that are getting served and protected?.
Ok i'll play your game!
You are now responsible for others actions and can be held accountable EVEN when not present. not sure you will understand that
2. How does one get chosen to wear a badge and made to do it even of they don't want to (limit the answer to the country we're living in where everyone has the freedom to take the job of their choosing)??.
NO one is made to wear a badge let alone work for small amounts of money
3. If a criminal has a mistake of the mind and not the heart--say he accidently shoots someone he is robbing or he runs over someone while evading a traffic stop--is the victim any less injured/dead and is the criminal any less culpable (let's assume the criminal isn't wearing a badge)? If you're actually speaking of intent, ask a lawyer or judge how easily intent is proven in a courtroom.
the difference is, he committed this act while in the commission of a FELONY,
he committed the act during the course of his duties. there fore you have transfered intent vs non transfered intent
I don't think every officer is corrupt or incompetent. However, it boggles my terribly small mind that those who are truly inept are steadfastly defended by those in the same line of work simply because they are in the same line of work. Cops, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc. all have ready explanations for the shortcomings of their peers. Objectively read through the posts here again and you'll see the pattern.
no body was saying he was right in his actions, you are twisting words around. they were and are simpling sheding light on varying factors which led to the end result of what started this post
With that, the needle of my "Gawd-I'm-Bored-o-meter" is spinning like that deputy's defense lawyer. Take a stab (not a shot, thank you) at answering 1-3 if you wish. Or, ignore this post. Either way I'm done.
Actually I think your spaghetti theory has run its course,
STEVE YAGMAN

[MRSDRMCAT]

I am thankful for LE. Im proud and thankful for everyone who has chosen to put their life on the line and protect us. They do job that is soooooooooo beyond what anyone could imagine. What would our world be without them!

[FLOJO]

If The Guy Was Black Jessie Would Be There Carying Raceist Card, Since He Was Brown Who Cares I Think The Officer Should Hang. I Bet He Wouldnt Have Shoot Him If He Knew He Was On Tape.

[Ultrafied]

NO one is made to wear a badge let alone work for small amounts of money
Then why do it? Find another job without the "authority".
Cops are normal people and screw up. Simple as that. Do I appreciate LE? Sure, like do most other service organizations but definitely not putting them on any pedestal.
Now fireman, IMO, they can step on that pedestal and take a bow!
They will never find 12 people who will agree his actions were entirely unreasonable.
Maybe, but I think the pedelam is and has been swinging the other way for awhile. My money is that it would be hard NOT to find 12 people who will agree his actions were entirely unreasonable.
:D :D

[C-2]

STEVE YAGMAN
Everybody's favorite, bow-tie wearing civil rights geek.
Coppers have lotsa love for this guy, lol

[Havasu Cig]

Now fireman, IMO, they can step on that pedestal and take a bow.
Wow, did I not say this in another post. Everyone loves a fireman.

[Nicked prop]

with your answers.
You answered half of the first question so half credit on that one. You and Widge, also LE or claims to be, don't agree on the second question--Widge thinks some folks that don't want to wear a badge are chosen to do so. I'm inclined to agree with you. And you gave a good theoretical answer to question 3 which proves you are a cop and not an attorney who actually practices law in the court room. Otherwise, you would have talked to the difficulty of proving intent, transferred on not. And I will admit to mistaking the excuses and plausible reasons given for why the deputy would have shot the man for a defense of the deputy's actions. Glad to hear nobody was saying the deputy was right in his actions.
As for the spaghetti theory, if you'll read the entire thread (a little more carefully than you read the questions I posed since you only partially answered them) you'll find my questions were based on statements by Widge and others. If I served pasta, it was leftovers.