WHAT JET IS THE BEST??

[REAL ZBESTFAM]

:cool: Looking to put a new jet in my 1995 Ultra It had a Dominatior pump in it but I was thinking I would replace it with a Berkeley pump or ?? I would like a divirter also help me plz... What is the BEST pump I have a 427 BBC pushing it.
Thanks :)

[Jake W]

Why not rebuild the Dominator jet and spend the extra money that it would cost to buy a new one on preformance parts?That is what I would do.Get your self a loader, inducer,a droop if it will help and PlaceDiverter.Jake

[cyclone]

i agree with jake. a brand new factory pump from berkeley is like 2K$. That much cash would get your a kick ass blueprint job on your current pump and some cool upgrades ta boot!

[Hustler]

Just put aggressor in it, they are the best....right Chet :D :D
Seriously though you should just look into detailing the pump you have, you'll get more bang for the buck, and since it has'nt been said yet Call Jake @ MPD to get it done right 949-631-2040

[burbanite]

I don't think that he has a pump to rebuild?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2410810211

[Hustler]

Well if that is the boat I would stick with a Dominator. You can get them from American Turbine or give Jack a call and see if he has anything he can put together for you. Since it already has a intake in it you'll want to avoid having to change it or reset it.

[ChetCapoli]

Hustler:
Just put aggressor in it, they are the best....right Chet :D :D
Actually I was thinkin along those lines. :) Dominator is a great pump too if you must know..i'd even take that before a berkeley. From what i am told dominator was the pump to have in the late 70's drag race days. I guess it's where the "lipped" wear ring originated. Did you know that hustler??
CHET
CHET

[HOOTER SLED-]

PANTHERS ROCK!!!!!!!!! (hold the comments please!!) :D :D

[Backtanner]

Isn't this the same boat that was stolen and stripped? If I remember correct they didn't leave much including the pump. I think his key word was he "had" a dominator. If he got a good deal on the boat on E-bay, I would suggest he keep his eyes peeled for a pump also.

[77charger]

as long as it aint a panther,jacuzzi golden eagle,you are good to go even an with an aggressor :D .So instead of replacing dump the money into it to improve and you will be happy.ANother here for jack @ MPD.

[Bow Tie Omega]

Another man bashing Panthers. Why is Panther a bad pump??????????. My stock Panther keeps up with all the others and can pull from most of them in stock form. And my boat is 21 ft.

[Cas]

yes Charger, I too would like to know what's wrong with a Panther?
I currently have 2 boats with Panthers in them.

[Bense468]

Panthers are a great pump for a cruiser and lower rpms they were cheap too. Panthers are def not a berk though. I think an AT, Dominator, Legand, or berk would look and work good on that ultra. Go with any of those if you find a good deal.

[AZKC]

Pictures don't lie, I'm lookin forward to dusting a few non-belivers in the family boat class(Miller I'm talkin to you wink , and Doug if your listening :D ) Can't wait to try it out, just don't want 396's crappy luck :( It's Time!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/57panther_Becky0001-med.jpg
See ya on the water
KC

[dankirk]

I've posted this many times before, but there are those that still don't believe that a Panther Jet can smoke a Berkeley. For those unbelievers, click here: http://www.cinemashares.com/video/gowild.asx
Enjoy, Dan :D

[Jack]

Since Berkley isn't around any more, and parts (new parts) are getting harder to come by. I would suggest a Legend pump. They are one of very few if not the only pump that comes blueprinted. And, it's the pump that is recommended by Eliminator Boats!

[1Bahnerjet]

I Like the movie. It took almost 1 Hour to watch( on my dial-up connection)But come on the panther Had a 360 AMC the Nordic Had a Big Block With Berkeley And The Panther Wins! Only In the Movies!
----------------------
Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive

[1Bahnerjet]

Hey Jack,
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/4312JI-med.jpg
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Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive

[AZKC]

dankirk:
I've posted this many times before, but there are those that still don't believe that a Panther Jet can smoke a Berkeley. For those unbelievers, click here: http://www.cinemashares.com/video/gowild.asx
Enjoy, Dan :D Nuff said
KC

[Jack]

To 1Bahnerjet:
Those are used, rebuilt pumps

[Jack]

I see the ad says "new" and it appears to be an ad from Berkley. But I'm telling you the Original "Berkley" went out of business.

[1Bahnerjet]

I don't Think so, But only CP Performance Knows for sure. wink
----------------
Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive

[ChetCapoli]

Jack:
To 1Bahnerjet:
Those are used, rebuilt pumps How do you know this?? I thought the stuff CP sells is new as is the JI bowl they came out with...supposed to be an improved JG bowl from what i gathered. I thought the bowl pattern on a legend bowl is all different from a berkeley so some of their stuff(droop) doesnt fit anything else. Might you know about this too? Funny thing this legend stuff...you never see it aside from a certain SCal shop and no one ever recommends it. All the big places carry all the other brands for the most part. Yet legend is the only "blueprinted" pump made out there from what you say....interesting.
CHET

[Bense468]

legend is a good pump. It was started by guys that worked from harman marine. Harman used to be the only berk dealer back in the days. They had the account with berk. So all berks came from them.

[1Bahnerjet]

O.K. I'm Handing This Over To Chet, Bye 1BJ
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Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive

[1Bahnerjet]

I don't Know Why I'm Still Here, Bense 468, Legend was started by Ex-Berkeley Engineers
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Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive
[ April 27, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: 1Bahnerjet ]

[Cas]

Bense468:
Panthers are a great pump for a cruiser and lower rpms they were cheap too. Panthers are def not a berk though. I think an AT, Dominator, Legand, or berk would look and work good on that ultra. Go with any of those if you find a good deal. this is exactly the crap that cracks me up. Panthers are great for lower rpms? What is that about? Panthers come stock with a s/s impeller and can turn higher rpms safer than you can any of the others that come stock with aluminum.
Panthers are cheap? Panthers come stock able to withstand HP up to 1000. Panthers come stock with things you have to buy for the others....set-back, s/s impeller, ride plate. Not only that, you can't get a Berkeley with an enclosed shaft. As far as I'm concerned, the others are overpriced and force you to buy aftermarket parts to make them better.
Let me see, buy a new Berk for $1995.00 (with trade in), add a s/s impeller, what's that cost? $800.00? now it's up to $2795.00, add a ride plate...$300.? up to $3095.00, add the cost to set a Berk back, what's that cost guys? $1200.00? $1500.00?
Hmmmm, way over $4000.00 to get what would be equavilant to what you get in a Panther for about $2600.00, if you buy new that is.
I've had 2 models of Berkeleys (jc & jg) and I'll put the Panthers I have now up against either of those, set up the same way.
The biggest problem I see with Panthers, the people out there trying to tell others what's wrong with Panthers when it fact they have no clue.
People also crack me up when they "think" they know about what a company does or doesn't do. The information is out there people, CP Performance is real easy to contact to find out what they sell and who now owns Berkeley. The same holds true with Legend...heck, HB did a pretty good in depth article about Legend awhile back.
[ April 27, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Cas ]

[Cas]

1Bahnerjet:
I Like the movie. It took almost 1 Hour to watch( on my dial-up connection)But come on the panther Had a 360 AMC the Nordic Had a Big Block With Berkeley And The Panther Wins! Only In the Movies!
----------------------
Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive not true, there was a test or maybe it was a challenge a few years ago and I believe Hot Boat was there. A Panther with a small block chevy against a Berk with a BBC....the movie tells the essence of what happened.
With all that said, if I were going to go drag racing with a jet, I'd probably choose a Berk, Aggresser, Dominator or something along those lines. For a really good and reliable lake boat that can handle everything I want it to, I'll stay with my Panthers.
btw, I'm real happy to see all the other Panther owners out here, especially the ones that may have bought a boat they liked that happened to have a Panther in it. You guys are finding out how good a Panther really is.

[Jake W]

1 Banharjet is right on with the Berk stuff.CP Preformance sells new stuff.You can buy used stuff too.And about who started Legend he is right too.I have bought a ton of shit from CP and talked to the guy at Legend also.Pick up the phone and call them if you do not belive.Berk parts hard to find no way.please do some research befor you tell any one else that one of the most used jet drives are hard to find parts for.All of the newer jetdrive Comp make there stuff fit berk stuff.Jake

[jim@pj]

Jet Drives. There are alot of good jet drives out there today. I became a dealer for berkeley in 1980 before they went broke and were sold at auction to CP in 1996, or there about. Berkeley is still a good jet drive and I still sell their parts.They just never did any design improvements over the years. Legend jet was designed by Berkeley engineers in the early 90's and they addressed all of the design problems that berkeley would not address in the early days. Legend uses a stepped wear ring (stock) and addressed the stuffer area behind the impeller with a step. The gaskets were replaced with o rings and they kept the oil bath for the tail bearings. They also use a 7 vane bowl with a more aggressive impeller than the origional Berkeley. I believe that American Turbine was also designed by ex Berk engineers. Turbine has done alot of these same improvements and they now own Dominator. Aggressor has also addressed alot of these issues and continues to do alot of R&D , which is important to the industry. Aggressor is a very good jet drive and their impellers develope alot of thrust. I use alot of their Mag bronze units because they have a more aggressive profile and are very strong (1200 HP)at a reasonable price. I sell them for 540.00. Aggressor also has a number of bowls to choose from depending on what you want to accomplish. Dave, at Aggressor, has a definate desire to improve the industry and is great to work with, I am a Nor Cal dealer for Aggressor an I am happy with them..
Jacuzzi is a good jet for the stock application but has not changed much over the years from their origional designs. And they had some problems.
Panther jet is a good jet drive also and produces alot of mass thrust. They work great in the low and mid range and on heavy boats. Just add Horse Power and you can get to 80MPH if your panther is in a small boat( 16'-19') Probably the best out there in Axial flow jets for the lake boater.
It just depends on what you are looking for and what was in your boat when you bought it. Some deals may look better than others but it
is all a matter of choice and what works best for you. And most importantly, how you set things up.
Top speed in your boat is a combination of three things: 1. Hull weight, shape, size,set up and condition. 2.Engine design, type and HP and RPM out put. 3. Jet drive type and condition.
Most jets will get you there if you set everything up right. Everybody says theirs is the best but I believe that they are all good. Everybody has their own personnel reasons for what jet unit they prefer and that is what makes this all so interesting and fun to me. All the little tricks that you do to beat out the next guy at the river and lake is what compitition is all about. Its great! Even Listening to you guys bash each other on the boards is alot of fun...thats boating. I guess I am an old Jet purist.
If you are looking for more bang for the buck check out the Aggressor that I have a special on at my web site. I have a Legend special also. Or, just build what you've got, its all good..
www.performancejet.com (http://www.performancejet.com) Jim

[jet4fun]

dont get me wrong, i love all types of boats, jets props etc... it also doesnt matter which type of drive, even panther... and i dont want to piss anyone off here cause i am not flaming panther (Bow Tie Omega, this includes you too buddy wink )
i think the problem here with panther comes from the fact that they are a good pump in stock form, and i have no doubt that put against a stock berkeley with equal engines, h.p. and boat the panther would win... but honestly, i dont care that your ford taurus is faster than my chevy caprice...
i own a "hot boat" and not a bayliner, i enjoy modifying it and making it faster. and just like even a panther owner will agree, you basically cant do anything to these pumps... bow tie omega once argued when i made the comment about the fact that nobody drag races a panther, that it's because panther did no "post design R&D"... neither did berkeley. when you go to the races you will have a hard time finding anything made by berkeley, and if you do find something made by them it will have been modified to the hilt... most parts these days are made by aftermarket performance companies, or are custom made... the reason you dont see panthers at the drag races is because it is just not a good pump to start upgrading, and it usually doesnt respond well to modifications. a lot of this gets in to mixed flow vs. axial flow pumps etc... and a bunch of technical garbage that i dont want to talk about, let a professional pump builder explain it to you... if panther was a good upgradeable pump then you would see it on a lot more boats, and you would be able to buy aftermarket parts, just like a berkeley...
BTO also once made a comment to me that not everybody drag races. i understand that, but what i was getting at is that almost all parts/refinments/items used on new cars, trucks, boats etc... was derived based on happenings on the race track, and its usually a safe bet to follow a racer's lead (unless he's an idiot) if thats what youre trying to accomplish...
i understand what the panther owners are saying about stock pumps, but if i didnt care about modifying my boat, i would go buy me a brand spankin new bayliner that will make 10 lake trips on 20 gallons of gas, and never in a million years break down... and i wouldnt be on the "HOT BOAT" forums

[Cas]

jet,
Panthers do have upgrades along with some mods for racing. You're right in the fact that you don't see many, if any, Panthers at the drags.
That in itself does not warrant anyone saying Panthers are not a good pump.
If they don't meet the specs you need for drag racing, that's a legitimate reason for you. If a person can be happy racing a Panther in a 10 sec class and be successful, I don't see a problem with that or the pump. That's what it can handle.
I also don't have a problem with a pump or any part for that matter having it's limitations. What I do have a problem with is people making blanket statements that something is no good....especially when they have no clue in what they are talking about.

[LVjetboy]

ZBestFam,
Where are you?
What is your hp peak rpm for that 427? If your measure of "best pump" is top speed, then match that peak to your impeller size. One thing not mentioned yet (or at all?) is how impeller designs differ in their absorption of power. Or "aggresiveness" if you like. And how that may influence a decision.
For example, just focusing on impeller brands...not pump housing design. A Dominator or Aggressor "B" impeller will absorb about 60 more hp than the same Berkeley or American Turbine "B" impeller spinning at the same rpm.
If you need to turn that 427 to high rpms to match your hp peak for top speed, you may end up cutting that Aggressor or Dominator a full size to a "C" to get the same match. There's a possibility of loosing efficiency but cutting smaller, although nobody so far knows how much? That question's still open. But your peak power rpm may influence what impeller brand is best.
Cas,
Why do you say you'd choose a Berk, Aggressor or Dominator for drag racing a jet?
As you know, I'm a believer in matching impeller size to peak hp for top speed. Are Panther impellers cut to different sizes? All I know is the 450, which seems to match a Berkeley B in power absorbed.
I've never claimed brand x or y is best. Even though I own brand x. But I do believe there is a difference and that difference can be known.
For your "average" lake jet, difference in pump design between the axial flow and mixed flow maybe a mute point. But many jetter want to go faster. And there will be a power and speed point where the design of the jet (axial or mixed flow) becomes a factor. In other words, more important than just who has the most aftermarket parts or who has a stock stepped wear ring or SS impeller. Where that point is or what design favored, I don't know. My guess is the faster you want to go, the more a mixed flow design benefits.
But this just a wild guess on my part.
jer

[Rexone]

jim@pj know's his stuff. one of many good builders around. what he speaks is good info.
All the companies mentioned make good parts, Berkeley (CP), Turbine, Legend, Agressor, Panther etc. We deal to some extent with them all. CP is the owner of Berkeley and their stuff is new parts. We use a mixture of manufacturers parts based on both quality and price, in that order. None of these products are light years ahead of the next in terms of performance for most lake boats and each builder has their prefrences in which parts they choose. My guess is that any of the top pump builders could take any of these products and make them perform very close to the next brand. Like Jim says though, it is amusing to see you guys bash each other based on this or that pump being so much better than the next. It's all good... :D
[ April 28, 2003, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Rexone ]

[1Bahnerjet]

I like the Movie (go wild) does anyone know how I can make it run without stopping? Its a 10min. movie, on my dial-up it took almost 1hr. to watch.
------------------
Drive What You Own And Like What You Drive

[Cas]

Jer,
You pretty much answered your question to me. Most of the mixed flow pumps have more aftermarket products so a person can tweak their set-ups to get that extra .10 or .010 knocked off.
I also don't believe Panthers were made for drag racing although from what I understand, they did have a few records years ago. I'm also relying on what others have said and done in regards to the above.
Then again, every pump has it's limitations, as discussed an many occasions, just where is that point? It seems there's a "wall" around 75ish, maybe 80 without having to get into some major alterations with most all the pumps. That statement is only an observation on my part over the past 4 1/2 years or so from hanging around here.
What I don't know is where that wall is with a Panther. Steve at Panther mentioned 80 as did Jim in his previous post in a 16' to 19' boat. The Panther race intake is/was only recommended for speeds of 80 and above. As far as the impeller sizes, I can only say I was told there is a couple of different sizes although I do not know what they are. Personally, I only have experience with the stock impellers, so far.
Getting back to the racing thing, could it be since the mixed flow pumps have much more R&D and are "easier" to tweak than a Panther, that's the reason for their popularity?
As many people know through conversations, I also agree that most all pumps are equal in a lake boat type application. As you said, the most important thing is to match parts to get what you want. With all the people I'm seeing around here now doing things with Panthers, I'm pretty excited to see their results.
As you know, I'm making some drastic changes in my boating. A lot of the reason is because I'm tired of hearing that such and such brand is so much better than what I have. Will it shut people up seeing my set-up faster than theirs? I dunno. Will they really care? I dunno. What it will do though is give me satisfaction knowing what I have will do what I want it to. :)
It's funny but I always root for the underdog....

[Bow Tie Omega]

Jet 4 Fun. A good post by your part, honestly. But in all reality there was alot more R&D put into the Berks and others then the Panthers, whether it was in house or after market. The designer of Panther has said he felt no need to build a better pump because he feels that it is competetive. Your comparison of Panthers to Bayliners is a little bit of BS though...Respectfully of course. I hardly call 70 mph bayliner type of speed. 45 mph yes, 70mph no. I too am a hot boater and consider my boat a hot boat as others have also told me. If I had an extra $20,000 to throw at the motor I bet I could have the Panther at 90-100 mph. But as it is I have put $15,000 into my boat restoration and feel that I have to put a limit somewhere on what I spend on a weekend use boat, that is code for the wife said no more . I think for 500 hp in a 21 ft mini day cruiser, 70 mph with a Panther is pretty damned respectable, hardly Bayliner numbers. That is not including the diverter and grate mods. Tuning an axial flow pump is alot more difficult then tuning a mixed bowl. Alot fewer parts for an axial flow pump equates to fewer parts to break which equates to longer life span. But it also means that there is less to tune on. I think that the R&D that I am doing as well as what others are doing is what hot boating is all about. Just like you said in your post about R&D, trial and error. Making the boat or car faster by tweaking things that have not been tweeked is the essence of hot boating/rodding in my opinion, not Baylinering it as you put it. I would also love to be able to bolt a Berk on my boat after I am done and look at the difference. I will bet not much, if any. Stock or worked. Jet boats are dependent on 3 major factors: Impeller, amount of water entering the pump and rpm, just as most boats are.
[ April 28, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Bow Tie Omega ]

[jet4fun]

as i said, panther does have some upgrades, and i agree with cas that if a panther fits the bill for your needs then it can be a great pump...
cas, berkeleys werent made for drag racing either, nothing was originally. but since we are men we cant leave anything alone, and thats when boat racing was born...
BTO, i understand what you mean by the p.d. R&D put into the berks by aftermarket and youre saying that if that much was done to panthers then they would run just as fast, i cant really comment on whether or not that would be true cause its never been done... but getting back to my drag racing comment. panthers were used for a while back in the day as cas stated. racers stopped using panthers because they couldnt make them work as well as the berks. now whether or not they are just idiots and dont understand the pumps, i dont know, but i do know that racers never leave anything alone, and are always looking for a way to pick up an extra 10th, and back in the day that extra speed came from modifying the berks, and the rest is just history...
my bayliner comment was not meaning that i would rather own a bayliner than a panther, what i was getting at is that if i wanted a stock boat i would buy a bayliner... the reason i have a dominator is because i want to be able to heavily modify my pump, boat etc... and haul ass... that fits MY needs, and thats why you will never see me owning a panther
p.s. BTO, as ive stated in the past. i am not the one that gave you the official 4 star rating. i havent given you any rating at all. i'm sorry you feel that way
[ April 28, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: jet4fun ]

[Cas]

Jer,
As I was taking a shower I was thinking more about your question (probably more info than you needed). I guess the biggest reason I would go with a mixed flow pump if I were to race would be more of a financial decision. Mixed flow pumps already have a lot of extras available that are known to improve speed in a drag boat. I, like I'm pretty sure others do, would chose that route so I would have the ability to purchase parts that will work.
If I had unlimited funds to work with, I wouldn't at all mind trying to work with an axial flow.
To me, racing, to an extent, is about how much money a person can spend, the more you have, the more you can put in and possibly the faster you go.
If I have $5K to spend and you have $25K on the same type of race boat, there's no doubt you're going to beat me just about every time. On the flip side of that, if I could spend $5K and get companies to donate $35K worth of their expertise in parts and labor, more than likely I'll be pulling away from you.
I'll still be rooting for the underdog though :D

[Bow Tie Omega]

Steve you explained it beautifully. J4F, if I really wanted to go fast...really fast, like drag race, I would own a v-drive. I feel that when I am done, I will realistically be able to keep up with 60-70% of all jet boats out there. I can live with the other 30-40% kicking my ass. And I know that I will beat every single bayliner out there with ease.

[Oldsquirt]

1Bahnerjet:
I like the Movie (go wild) does anyone know how I can make it run without stopping? .... Instead of left clicking on the link and letting it run, right click on the link and then left click on "save target as". This will allow you to download the movie to your hard drive. Once done you can watch it all you want without all the starts and stops.

[Bense468]

[ May 02, 2003, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[Jake W]

Bense sounds like your dad has some cool history.I think at one time a shop was modifing a Place Diverter to fit a Panther and it wasent cheep.That was about 4 years ago ,I called the place out of the black and white adds in Hot Boat.Jake

[Cas]

Bense,
I didn't read anywhere in Jim's post saying Panthers are cheap. I agree Panthers are a very good pump for heavier boats, they do move a lot of water. I don't agree with you saying they are good for lower rpms and leaving it at that. As Jim said, just add hp and they can get to 80. 80 with a Panther means the motor is turning about 5500 rpms, is that "lower rpms"?
btw, define "cheaper" boats....the same ones they put Berkeley JC's in? What did they call that package? Berkeley Packajet or something like that?

[MikeC]

Not to add insult to anyone or anyone's pump, but. I personally did not like my axial flow pump in my old heavy 21 foot Day Cruzer. They seem to need more water that the mixed flow. Problem I had was, when your pulling a skier, well the axial needs allot of water flow right? How do you manage to get that flow when your moving slowly? As far as top speed, it did 55 with the Jacuzzi YJ and 57 with a Berkely B bowl and a Berk A imp both at 4500 r's.
As far as Panther in a race boat, at 80 mph, you could run in IHBA open RR and dial in your own 13+ 1/4 mile time. But like you said CAS, maybe it hasn't been tried before!? Let's see some Panther whoop up on some Flattie's or even some of them there Wackaa's... You'll have my hoot.
Have fun,
MikeC
[ April 28, 2003, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: MikeC ]

[Cas]

Mike,
I just don't know what a Panther can do and to be honest, I don't have the funds to really find out. All I'm able to muster is this little blower motor that'll be putting out somewhere between 500 and 550 hp. Is that going to be enough to get to 80? I have no idea. Is my hull even capable of letting it get there, I don't know that either.
The bottom has not quite 1/4" of hook which isn't too awfully bad compared to some but how much will it affect the top end? 2,3,5 mph? I don't know that either.
What I do know is this hull engine combo will go faster then my 21' boat with a similar set-up.

[LVjetboy]

Hi Steve,
There's a certain mystery and flair to being the underdog. It's all cool. I also like the idea of exploring "different" technologies. Especially considering our somewhat stagnant field of jet pump technology. If you call it technology? If you got the need for speed to prove the Panther, it's all good to me.
Top speed is my focus, not everyone's of course I understand, but the more the better.
And like I said, I really don't know if the axial or mixed flow is best for top speed. (I should know this but not sure yet) But I sense there's a power/speed limit where one design is better suited than the other. Better suited meaning less money and power to achieve the same goal, all other things equal. In other words, ignoring how many after-market parts are available or how much R&D was poured into that specific design, the inherent physical characteristics of that design (axial or mixed flow) make it more suitable for a specific application. That goes for most any drive design...even airplanes engines for example.
Consider the the turbo jet vs the turbo fan. Each engine/drive design be it air or water has a speed and power application best suited for the design. Going outside the design envelope means less efficiency and more power to achieve the same goal. Not that it can't be done. Just that it may not be a good choice for the application.
Granted, different pump designs can achieve the same goal given enough power, just that one design or the other is better suited to a achieving a certain goal given the power available. And more power = more money. I have no doubt that a Panther with enough power can match a Legend, or an American Turbine, or a Berkeley. Or vice versa. And I'm not convinced that if one brand or the other has top speed advantage, it's all because they happen to have the most aftermarket parts.
I know this all seems theoretical what-if's, too much physics, possibly labeled bench racing by some and overkill brain work by others, but in the end, the answer to these type of design questions turns out to be what it's all about. Not brand loyalty, but boring (to some) engineering and design consideration.
jer
[ April 29, 2003, 02:47 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[ChetCapoli]

LVjetboy:
Hi Steve,
There's a certain mystery and flair to being the underdog. It's all cool. I also like the idea of exploring "different" technologies.
jer LV i gotta laugh at that one....for a guy who has his work done by the "only places who know jet stuff"..where did that come from??? All i see is berkeley on your boat last i checked.
CHET

[LVjetboy]

I'm no underdog in the engine-pump arena. Strickly main stream speed. But underdogs still have a certain flair. :)
jer

[Bense468]

[ May 02, 2003, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[Bense468]

Wow was that a panther? it was moving so fast I could hardly see it. Panther guys get all the ladies. Come on bad berk lets get out of here.
[ May 02, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[LVjetboy]

Bense, chill? Steve likes Panther and is making his faster. That's cool to me. I'm really interested in his progress and results. As for the original post by ZbestFam? He's a no show. So the thread goes where interest drives. But I'm thinking better off on a technical level and not personal. Steve's one of the good guys.
I'd like to hear others thoughts on pump design and application. Many have brand loyalty no problem. But what's the real difference between an axial flow or mixed flow pump in application? And what hard data or experience to back your conclusion? Bense, you say a Panther works better at low rpms, sounds good, so why exactly is that? And why can't an axial flow match a mixed flow for high speed? I'm interested in your ideas and not your uncles here.
jer

[Cas]

Bense468:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bense468:
[qb] Panthers are a great pump for a cruiser and lower rpms they were cheap too. Panthers are def not a berk though. I think an AT, Dominator, Legand, or berk would look and work good on that ultra. Go with any of those if you find a good deal. Why are they a great pump for cruisers?
Why are they only good for lower rpm's?
why is a Panther cheap? inferior materials? poor workmanship? cost?
why would one of the others work good?
are all Berks the same?
would every model berk work just as good?
which impeller would be best?
nozzle?
should a ride plate be included?
General statements are what give products a bad name. What if a person puts in a certain part on your recommendation and has poor results? is it the parts fault or the person's giving the recommendation because of their lack of knowledge on a particular set-up?
Jer is really the only one that asked the right questions for the person looking to get a pump. I went to the wrong place based on some comments. Bense, you got the brunt. I'm pretty tired of people who are usually ignorant on the subject saying that Panthers are sub-standard.....they aren't.
As I said, I root for the underdog.....

[Bense468]

Wow was that a panther? it was moving so fast I could hardly see it. Panther guys get all the ladies. Come on bad berk lets get out of here.
[ May 02, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[LVjetboy]

If you thought I should chill on v-drives, then why not post in v-drives? I got no problem with that. Not that it would do any good. :) Both v-drivers and jetters know I rarely chill. But still...say what you think by all means Bense.
If my posts bore you no problem. Just don't read them. Your choice entirely and makes no difference to me.
What-if's get people thinking...the first step in progress. In the end, technical's what it's all about. Something as simple as the difference between an axial flow and mixed flow pump is based on physics and technology...like it or not. How flow reacts to a spinning impeller and the path it follows. I don’t “try and get all technical” I think technical. Can’t help it.
Just because I don't know the reason why one design is best for an application doesn't mean I don't sense there's an explanation not yet posted. Part of my background. That reason known by someone with pump design experience...not me. Us jetters no experts in that field. And just because the explanation may be technical or complex, doesn't mean I don't want to know why or post questions about it. A lack of knowledge not a threat to self-worth unless you let it be.
Bense, you rationalize most speed boats run mixed flow and conclude that design must be best. I say sounds good from my unenlightened point of view, but why best? If you can't answer that you got nothing. You got no "hard truth" or knowledge for that matter, just opinion. You're following the herd. A lot of people just following the happy cow herd thought the earth was flat and the center of the solar system...remember?
Not that opinions are bad. Or that all are wrong. Feel free to keep posting your opinion. Just that opinion may have little to do with to true technology.
As for me rarely having "facts" or "hard truth" who really does? Do you claim to Bense? If you read these boards long enough, you'll find there's those who claim to know the "truth", and those who others expect to "know" the truth. In the end, neither may really know the truth. Think about the history of "science" and you'll see that theme over and over. Just human nature...
Back to the best pump question. Does anyone have thoughts on which pump design is best for top speed, or any other application? And why?
jer

[wfodude]

Where in all this mud slinging did the point get lost.Problem number one...Zbestfam's boat had a set back dominator from the look of the transom.So even if a friggin panther was gods gift to the jet world it wouldn't fit without some major transom work.So realistically the man should avoid a panther. I have had both types of pumps.My panther in my little 17 foot Haskell with a 360 AMC ran great,my next boat had a berk and so did my last jet.....I wouldn't own another panther but thats only MY opinion.As I said it worked fine.One of my biggest gripes with it was it was IN MY OPINION ugly as hell.No way could it compare to my fully polished berk with a droop and a hydraulic place diverter in the...Oh my gosh... eye appeal department. Bottom line that ultra isnt set up to take a panther so the point in this thread is lost. But you guys keep arguing, it's very entertaining

[LVjetboy]

Ok, so you're saying following the happy cow herd and flat earth theory a little off-topic?
:)

[Jet Hydro]

LVjetboy:
Back to the best pump question. Does anyone have thoughts on which pump design is best for top speed, or any other application? And why?
jer Mine is!
Because it`s mine!
Very entertaining guys, Keep`s me coming back for the entertainment.
***boat .Net The only place on the internet that your mom would get in an argument!

[HalletDave]

Jet Hydro,
You say your jet is best. That won't make Chet very happy. :D :D
HD

[Bense468]

Wow was that a panther? it was moving so fast I could hardly see it. Panther guys get all the ladies. Come on bad berk lets get out of here.
[ May 02, 2003, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[Bense468]

Wow was that a panther? it was moving so fast I could hardly see it. Panther guys get all the ladies. Come on bad berk lets get out of here.
[ May 02, 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[AZKC]

Wfodude, was that you with your 360 AMC Pantherjet in the movie :D As my Mama all ways said "Panther is what Panther does" argue
Good stuff mixed in here though, and I'll agree with Wfodude put back in whatever it was set up for and enjoy the great deal ya got.
KC

[Cas]

all I can say to all that Bense, get your Dad on here so people can sniff the real smoke instead of the 2nd hand crap. Since your Dad is obviously knowledgable about jet pumps and has a long history with them, I'd like to hear what his opinion is on the Panther's bearing set-up as compared to all of the others. I know what I've been told by 4 other pump builders this week and I'm curious to his thoughts.
I also agree the guy with the Ultra needs to put back something similar that came out. It would not be cost effective to alter the transom to fit something else.

[HBjet]

I have a question! If I listen to a professional engine builder, and he tells me to use part XYZ and I do, but then everything goes to shit, do I then blame the part?
HBjet

[Tom Brown]

Best jet?
... Mercury sport jet. :D

[Cas]

HBjet:
I have a question! If I listen to a professional engine builder, and he tells me to use part XYZ and I do, but then everything goes to shit, do I then blame the part?
HBjet If the part fails due to a defect, blame the manufacturer.
If the part fails due to improper installation, blame yourself.
If the part doesn't work the way you wanted, blame yourself, it was your choice.
If the part doesn't work the way you want, don't blame the part and say it's sub-standard....it just didn't work for what you have or wanted it to do.
when the Governor fails, I blame every misinformed or blinded person that voted for him :D

[Jet Hydro]

HalletDave:
Jet Hydro,
You say your jet is best. That won't make Chet very happy. :D :D
HD Sure he will...It`s an Aggressor. The best pump "I`v" ever had!
I`v got a Dom on my other boat and it`s not 1/2 the pump as my Aggressor. (I base my facts on that I have one of each) I took my Dom off my Hydro and put it on my Taylor SJ when I put the Aggressor on my Hydro.
Now that should start some debate.....ROTFLMAO :)

[Jake W]

hey Jet Hydro did that SJ have a E pump in it befor?If so that must have been some fun glass work.And did you set it back?I have all ways wanted to know what one of thoes tankes(sj) would do with a set back pump(not an E pump).Jake

[Jet Hydro]

Jake
Mike Stucky (he was at HI-Tech`s BBQ)has a copy of one that has a set back pump and runs 100+ on the clocks. It`s called a "Beach Comer" and is a splash off the SJ. I don't think that they are safe past about 80mph myself but his will run 11.0`s and high 10`s all day long. He`s spun it out a few times but has never been spit out yet.
[ May 01, 2003, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Jet Hydro ]

[Jake W]

Is Mike the same guy that has the TEXAS Tunnel?Majic Mike so it was writen on the intake of Ricks Sunkist?I might be getting some names mixed up hear.How is the Sunkist comming any way?Jake

[Jet Hydro]

lol... ya that`s Mike.
From what I hear the Sunkist is all painted now and Randy is putting it back together. It should be an 11.something boat this year. I cant wait to line up with Randy again ( all in fun)
I sure miss my old sunkist.

[Bense468]

Wow was that a panther? it was moving so fast I could hardly see it. Panther guys get all the ladies. Come on bad berk lets get out of here.
[ May 02, 2003, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[Jet Hydro]

Jake
Rocket Randy just stopped by the shop and I asked him how the boat was coming and his reply was: It`s still on saw horses because he just redid the trailer. It sounds like he`s still got a way`s to go.

[Jake W]

Rocket Randy and Majic Mike (ha ha) thats funny.Isnt Randys boat called (No Joke).Are you guys going to go to the TableRock get togeather?Jake

[Jet Hydro]

I dont know anything about the table rock thing????

[Jake W]

Jet Hydro Check on the Banderlog board getogeathers thing and it should be posted in there all the dates and stuff.Jake

[Cas]

or on the LBBA message board and calendar of events