Me again with my 455 (whats wrong with my 455?), Mike you out there?

[dgie]

I found one major problem with my wiring. I was getting around 13.1 volts, at idle coming out of the alternator. Then going into a Ford solenoid. (Not sure why it is needed), but I was only getting around 12 volts out of it. I bypassed it and instead of the 11.5 volts I was getting at the fuel pump. I am now getting 12.5 at Idle. The engine does not cut out as bad now, however I am getting 5 psi until the secondaries kick in, then it drops to around 3 psi. I only get a max of 4200 RPMs and nothing more. The drop in psi is still too low I suspect. I called the place where I bought it and they said they would exchange it for a new one. It is a Holley Red and I was wondering if I should instead exchange it for a Holley Blue. The engine is stock with the exception of a marine cam and I am running a holley 750 marine carb on it. One final note, off the subject whenever I jump out of my boat or when I am in it. Woman stare me down, these things are true chick magnets, pisses off their boyfriends though.

[SeaSlut]

Your alternator should put out 16-18 volts @1000 rpm, your electric fuel pump should have a ballast resistor preceding it. I would run it through an oil pressure safety swith as well.
I suspect that every thing flows through the continuous duty solenoid for electrical safety, I would ditch it except for high draw items. If you have low voltage, everything will suffer.
[ June 13, 2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: SeaSlut ]

[Back Forty]

Your problem is that Holley red pump. They couldn't fill a coke can let alone your carb under full throttle. Don't bother with the "Blue" model either. Go back to a good mechanical or spend a few bucks on a decent electric pump.
What size fuel lines are you running.
What size fittings are coming out of your tank?

[Taylorman]

I agree, ditch the electric pump and spend about $60 on a mechanical pump. I have a Holley and I get 8-9 psi at wot on my tunnel ram with 2 600 cfm Edelbrocks. Mr Gasket makes on also, looks exactly like my Holley. Buy that and your problems will be over. You will also eliminate some extra wires. Summit Racings part number is MRG-7709. Click here.Summit Racing (http://store.summitracing.com/)
[ June 13, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: Taylorman ]

[Rexone]

dgie:
I found one major problem with my wiring. I was getting around 13.1 volts, at idle coming out of the alternator. Then going into a Ford solenoid. (Not sure why it is needed), but I was only getting around 12 volts out of it. I bypassed it and instead of the 11.5 volts I was getting at the fuel pump. I am now getting 12.5 at Idle. The engine does not cut out as bad now, however I am getting 5 psi until the secondaries kick in, then it drops to around 3 psi. I only get a max of 4200 RPMs and nothing more. The drop in psi is still too low I suspect. I called the place where I bought it and they said they would exchange it for a new one. It is a Holley Red and I was wondering if I should instead exchange it for a Holley Blue. The engine is stock with the exception of a marine cam and I am running a holley 750 marine carb on it. One final note, off the subject whenever I jump out of my boat or when I am in it. Woman stare me down, these things are true chick magnets, pisses off their boyfriends though. The Holley Blue requires a regulator and frankly you don't need it for your engine set up. A Holley red (when working properly at proper voltage) should supply your engine. An alternative recommendation in an electric would be a Mallory 4110M pump which I consider a much more reliable design.
As others have stated there is nothing wrong with mechanical either. And a good filter is important.
I'd have to see a diagram of your setup to tell you why the Ford solenoid is there. There are several possible reasons for it, none fuel pump related though as far as I know.
Also, with a stock engine depending on impeller and pump setup you may not see more than 4200. But it shoudn't be popping that's for sure. And 3 psi isn't enough fuel pressure. Should be at least 4-5 at WOT to be safe.
On your final note, you need to get them actually in your boat. Them staring with pissed off BF will do you little good at the end of the day. :D
Hope at least some of that was helpful :)
[ June 13, 2003, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: Rexone ]

[victorfb]

Ive been running a mechanical pump for years and it works great. and id say that the 4200 RPM is about right with a good pump and stock motor. mine ran about 4300,2 people, fresh pump and motor. i had to replace the "K" heads after a misshap, (never loan your boat out) with some "G" heads (smaller valves) but i did some mild porting. i then got about 4700 RPM 4 people. that was cool. dont want to get the olds to rev much higher than that. ive been told 5000 RPM is too high for a basicaly stock olds. i try not to ever get over 4500.

[cyclone]

i'm wondering why there is a ford solenoid wired to the fuel pump? is it being used as a relay to pump? Under perfect conditions (good wiring, good battery, clean fuel tanks, good fuel filter) a Holley electric pump will work. take away any of those good conditions and it will crap out on you. I ran a pair of Holley 750HP's on my last 455 motor off of a mechanical Holley pump and then with a Holley Black electric pump. They both did a fine job of keeping up with the carbs.

[dgie]

I did put a mechanical pump on it and it grinded two groves on the side of it for some reason, someone told me it might be hitting the chain,I am not sure what else it could be hitting in there or whay it is hitting at all. Also I was getting no pressure out of it, so I took it back to the auto part store. I called summit and they said that I could exchange it for another red pump or pay the difference and get a blue. not sure what I should do here. I kind of wish I had a SBC instead of the olds. :confused:

[victorfb]

dont get too frustrated with it. let me tell you this. i am running a stock mechanical pump on mine with a torker manifold and holley 750. the pump works fine

[dgie]

i am not sure why i am getting rubbing on the side of the actuating arm of the mechanical fuel pump when i installed it, any ideas?

[victorfb]

it would be better if you posted a pic of were the rub marks are. are they close to the end or toward the pump more? the only thing i can think of is that you have the wrong pump. ill go look at mine to see if there is anything noticable. i dought the timing chain/gear could be hitting. if anything you didnt put the actuating arm UNDER the cam lobe, instead it slipped above it. believe it or not the pump can still pump fuel if you have, but not at the proper preasure, and you would defintly be scraping the block.

[Frosty_pop]

dgie:
I kind of wish I had a SBC instead of the olds. :confused: That's the change over I made, best move I ever made on the boat......Olds is only good for one thing.... keeps the boat anchored during heavy current.... smile_sp smile_sp

[Rexone]

cyclone:
i'm wondering why there is a ford solenoid wired to the fuel pump? is it being used as a relay to pump? Under perfect conditions (good wiring, good battery, clean fuel tanks, good fuel filter) a Holley electric pump will work. take away any of those good conditions and it will crap out on you. I ran a pair of Holley 750HP's on my last 455 motor off of a mechanical Holley pump and then with a Holley Black electric pump. They both did a fine job of keeping up with the carbs. My guess is that the Ford solenoid is there as a slave solenoid and someone wired the fuel pump off of it after the fact. Again just a guess. Again with proper voltage to the pump (at wide open throttle) and adequate line size without restrictions, and a pump that's working properly and not full of crap, it should work fine on this engine.
Pull the bottom plate off the pump and inspect to see if there's any crap in there. Sometime the little sliding vanes will get stuck. Result is low pressure. The bottom plate comes off with a few screws and you can't hurt anything my checking it out. Just don't let the rubber gasket dry out before you reassemble it. Just another suggestion. :)

[dgie]

Thanks mike and vic I may have not placed the mechanical pump in correctly when I did it, whats the trick? I do not want to give up on the electric pump yet. Mike I will check for crap in the pump. Frosty I may be on the side building a SBC for the boat. What all did you need for the swap? I have a 4 point mount. I really need to get a picture out for yall on this boat, I put a lot of time and money into it, and not done yet.

[Napanutt]

Jack a thread...
Ford solinoid,Chevy starter,Ford engine...why?

[Napanutt]

Hey dgie...
Check out this thread...I've been kinda' dealing with the same type of shit... Fuel related issues... (http://www.havasudoug.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?s=78dd4762688fe0a4653053e5d0124d81;a ct=ST;f=3;t=34)
[ June 13, 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Napanutt ]

[Rexone]

455 Olds engine. GM starter Solenoid. Ford solenoid used as a slave to supply full voltage to the GM solenoid so it will kick the piston. Common problem with GM solenoids with not quite enough voltage. Especially when hot.
[ June 13, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Rexone ]

[Taylor LP]

That's what I thought at first too when I read it. But if it's set up as a slave, how would the fuel pump be connected to it? You would only have constant power to the solenoid and power to the solenoid coil when the key is in the cranking position, neither of which would be good to power the pump. It would either be constant on, or on only when cranking. Something is weird with this wiring, and I don't know what. My thought is that you need someone who is strong on electrical issues to check it out before you go any further. Electrical problems can be intimidating but not a big problem if you know what to look for. You said you bypassed the solenoid and are now getting 12.5volts at idle, but what are you getting when the problem occurs? Also could you explain just how you bypassed the solenoid? This doesn't jive with the slave solenoid idea either.
Not trying to be a wise ass, just trying to understand what's happening here.

[victorfb]

all depends on how the bypass was done. if he used a differant wire then it may be the old wire is coroded or just not large enough. (large, not long) too much ampreage drop accures when a long thin wire is used. and if its coroded it will not have the amperage flow either. i allways install a little extra length but larger main cables to the battery so every year i can cut the ends and get rid of any off season corossion build up. thats actually tomorrows project for me on my boat.

[dgie]

does anyone have any guesses on what the arm of the fuel pump could be hitting, when I installed it for the short period. Vic mentioned earlier that it may have been istalled incorrectly and was hitting the block. On a side note, I ordered a Moon Eyes fuel pressure guage to replace the hardware store one I have on there now. I am getting too much vibration when the secondaries kick in. does anyone else use Moon Eyes equipment out there? I always wanted to own something Moon Eyes, just never had anything to put it on. look kind of funny on an Acura Integra

[victorfb]

you sure you didnt just want the cool sticker, and the tool box was loaded allready? lol

[dgie]

On the subject of the solenoid that has a lot of questions raised. I redid the wiring throughout the boat to include the trailer. The stuff I pulled out was disgusting and spliced everywhere. It is hard to describe how it is set up. I did a wiring diagram i can send out to yall. I did some tweeking since I did the diagram, so I would need to update it first before I can send it out. I am not sure if the wiring is correct, but it seems to work. I have only 2 leads comming out of the alternator a little yellow one and a larger red one. Th large red one goes to one side of the starter, which continues on to one side of the solenoid. Then from there it picks it up at the other side of the solenoid and continues on to the hot side of the battery. The ignition kicking on actuates the solenoid and allows the current to the starter. The little yellow wire goes on to the terminal block and powers everything alse, fuel pump etc. The neighbor told me that I needed the solenoid so I am not running constant power to the starter at all times. He does the same on his race car. I had problems though because I was spitting out 13.8 volts from the alternator and was hitting the solenoid and knoking it down to 12 volts so I bypassed it when I did it allowed the full 13 volts to the battery and instead of getting 11.4 volts at the fuel pump I am now getting 12.5 volts. Like I say I may have it wire wrong, I need to track all the wires and update what I am getting at each point. I wish I had a pwer supply to do it to simulate the alternator running instead of running the motor.

[victorfb]

it is sometimes tough to get that pump lever underneath and stay there as you bolt it in all the way. i have had to preload the pump lever with my hands as i tilted it in and under the cam lobe. but even still it wants to slip upward with the preasure. it doesnt take much, the lever doesnt go far past the lobe so if the pump isnt all the way in and under, theres a good chance the lever slipped back up. try it again after a good rest and maybe half a barley pop.

[victorfb]

i think you are confusing the seliniod with a relay. the little yellow wire should be connected from your dash switch to the relay, then from there a larger but short wire goes to the starter for more powerful amperage draw. the relay is also connected with another wire straight to the power sourse. (battery)

[victorfb]

i think.....damn, im getting confused now. sure wish you had a picture of it all.

[dgie]

I will give it another try when it stops raining out here. I wish I had a garage to work out of. Texas is starting to mimick Washington state in rain fall, its pissing me off, cutting into my weekends.

[Rexone]

dgie you need to snap some digital pics of all that stuff so we can tell what cha talkin about a little better. :)

[dgie]

I will update the digram and send it to you, once again, the damn rain is in the way of that also :( It is a ford solenoid it is being trigered by when the ignition switch is turned all the way to start. which allows the solenoid to pass the current to the ,,,,,I think its backwards, crap now I am confused. I wish there was a standard digram out there, that everone could draw off of.

[dgie]

I think I kicked up a hornets nest on the v-drive site "v-drive vs jets" lol. I was expecting more from the swim platform on the v-drive boats, lol

[dgie]

Vic, I hope they throw in a moon eyes sticker, it would beat the hell out of the key chain floaty I got from West Marine :)

[victorfb]

that would be cool. i'll give ya two floaty's and a very worn out cooly for the sticker... lol
when im out workin on the boat tomorrow ill try and draw out the wiring i have. maybe the digital cam will work and i can snap some shots for ya. but dont count on that. i sure want to see you get that boat back on the water.

[dgie]

It's out already, its just a little sick right now. frown

[Taylor LP]

Send me a copy of your wiring diagram and I'll try to help.
spoorthyweb@hotmail.com

[Back Forty]

dgie, what brand mechanical pump did you use. I can't recall which brand it is but there is at least one company that has this problem and its a common issue.
The 455 is fine.
Do a search over here.
www.realoldspower.com (http://www.realoldspower.com)
Correction... It could actually be the timing chain used. Hell I think I'll drink another and see if I can remember...
[ June 14, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Back Forty ]

[dgie]

Taylor I will put you on the list, I might just attach it to the post like people are doing with pictures, I just have to figure out how.

[txboatnut]

Dgie,
do your self a favor and 86 that Holley fuel pump. I have used a Holley blue and what happens is the get hot due to lack of lubrication and will start to overheat and fuel pressure will drop. If you want to use a Holley electric pump you will need to add some Marvels mystry oil to every tank of gas to help keep the fuel pump cool, 4 oz to every 10 gallons. I also have a 455 and after haveing fuel problems I put in a mechanical pump. The only catch was I put it in upside down and had the same type of scarring on the pump arm like you mentioned. As one of the other guys said it will still pump even upside down. Hope that helps.
Paul

[dgie]

what is considered up side down. should the ports for the hoses be facing up or down. I have been puting it in down???????? I took the boat out with the electric fuel pump in engine ran fine except for the fact that I am running low on fuel pressure past 4200 rpms. I only got up to 42 mph max at 4200 rpms max. seems a little low in mph to me, anyone have any ideas, could it be a cavitating pump, or wrong impeller, etc.? I was told by cp performance that if the pump does not feel like a slipping clutch, then the wear ring is fine, any input????????

[Cas]

http://www.liquidaddiction.net/Images2/ignitionandgage.jpg

[malcolm]

Hey dgie, the fuel pump on a Olds goes in with the ports on the top. At least that's how mine are. Looks upside down to all the Chevy boys.

[txboatnut]

Dgie,
Malcolm is right. Ports are on the top side.

[ANGEL]

first things first make sure your gas tank isnt full of shit. check your fuel filters to see if there full of sluge. if they are ill bet your getting some restriction on your fuel pressure. at idle on my boat i have about 5 to 6P.S.I. at 3500 rpm it drops to 0 psi and falls on its face! my gas tank is full of shit ill have to pull it and clean it or replace with new one. THATS MY STORY good luck!

[Tahiti Tiger Mark]

I have the same problem with one of my tanks, what a bitch that is too. Have to cut the damn thing out because it is fiberglassed in. I have tried douching it out with no luck. Only option left is to cut it out...

[BiggusJimbus]

So Cas...
I've been working from that very diagram.
One thing that has me a bit confused...
I have an Alternator wire (Fat orange one) that goes from the terminal block to up under the dash.
What the heck am I sposed to hook that to?
Any ideas?

[dgie]

I swaped out the electric fuel pump(Holley Red, POS) with a $13.00 mechanical fuel pump from Oriellys. I am getting plenty of fuel pressure now. The guage fluctuates like crazy now though I assume it is because of the difference in continuous pumping of the electric vs the on and off of the mechanical. Does anyone have any idea if going to a liquid filled fuel pressure gauge will do away with this fluctuation in the reading and give me a more stable reading?

[BiggusJimbus]

No,
The liquid filled ones just cut down on needle movement from boat and motor vibes.
Plus,
Most of them just leak anyway.
That's been my experience.
Jimbus.

[Cas]

Jimbus,
I don't know :(
I've used that wiring diagram on a couple of boats with the exact same set-up and never had a problem.
Could someone have put that orange wire there for an additional power supply?

[dgie]

so how do you get an acurate reading on a mechanical pump?

[TX Daytona]

dgie,
It's a little bit of a drive for you , but there are a few hot boaters that show up at Avalon Park on lake Lavon on Weds. around 6:00PM and on week ends. If you contact me at jerry@jwbowman.com with an email address I'll let you know when some of the gurus are going to be there and you can meet them and let them take a look at what's going on with your boat. Some of these guys are pit crew for hydros etc. and know what they're doing.

[dgie]

That sounds good I am not sure where Lake Levon is my e-mail is dgierke2000@yahoo.com let me know. It would be nice to have somone take a look at my boat and tell me to pick another hobby :D

[dgie]

I see it on the map, up around lewisville lake. I live in Euless by DFW airport I could run it up there on the weekend. I store it down in Ennis at my sisters place. I usually take it to Bardswell because it is close. No jet boaters out there though, that sucks.

[Taylor LP]

Jimbus,
If everything is working without that orange wire being connected then my guess is that someone had an ampmeter in there at one time and might have replaced it with a voltmeter, and just left the wire in there.