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View Full Version : FLOOR SEPERATION?



DOHARA
05-20-2002, 02:37 PM
I have a 20 foot open bow 1990 Canyon. I have noticed the floor seperating from the hull of the boat. I went to havasu this weekend and as we were coming back from sandbar halling ass against the wind the from bow area flipped up. It didn't come off luckily I let off quick enough to save it. As i repaired it the best i could the next day, I found the floor is seperated from the front of the bow all the way to the driver and passenger seats. I'm just wondering what causes this and should I replace the hole floor or have someone else do it. I know some guys on this board have done it them selves but is it best to leave it to the pros? Who can I call to have them check this out to see what it will co$t. I know the guy we bought it from is hard on his toys, so I'm sure he did the damage prior. Any help would be great.

Slick
05-20-2002, 02:40 PM
Two words...Havasu Barney.
www.havasubarney.com (http://www.havasubarney.com) or 928-505-8678 Shop
You could probably do it yourself, but Barney will make it bulletproof and he's very reasonable on price.
Good luck,
Slick

hoolign
05-20-2002, 03:18 PM
They say misery loves company
I pulled up carpet to replace..and the whole floor and all the wood under it is fubar everything,if it came from a tree it's shot,so now I get to learn how to fix it all, can't be that hard, just gotta get the nerve to take that first swing,i am a bit nervous about grinding the fiberglass on the inside of the hull though

Slick
05-20-2002, 03:21 PM
Grinding is not an issue. Just make sure when you cut the old floor out to not go through the hull. I used a grinder with a diamond tile blade on it. In the tight spots I used my rotary tool with a diamond impregnated wheel on it.
When grinding on the hull, use a backing pad on your grinder with sanding discs, not abrasive wheels. The sandpaper discs work much better.

hoolign
05-20-2002, 03:39 PM
not grinding through the hull is where my nerves are gettin it from http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif I'm gonna give it a shot! gotta go buy a dremmel with a cutter! and a fire wire so i can post victory [or defeat]

WetNwild
05-20-2002, 08:30 PM
I just bought my first boat, a 1977 19ft. Ultra, after finding a large crack in the floor next to one of the stringers I thought the worst. I pulled the interior to find the floor was rotted out. After alot of cutting, grinding and wire brushing I got it all cleaned up and I'm cutting the floor and the runner in right now. For a moment or two I thought I must be crazy, but the hard part is over. Save the old floor for a templet. I'm not sure if I should use water seal to protect the wood. It might keep the fiberglass from sticking to the wood, any ideas would be appreciated? Its nice to see that im not the only one, it seems to be a commin problem.

hoolign
05-20-2002, 08:47 PM
I was just going to use treated wood,then fiberglass in the runners to the hull,with drains into the bilge,then use treated wood for the floor with no glass just caulking on the edges,so it's no prob to get at the tank if I have to.good idea/bad idea or do i have to glass the floor to the inside of the hull

Raskal
05-20-2002, 09:15 PM
well i just found out my floor is coming up also had to pull gas tank out to weld tiny hole and noticed that small part was pulling up to scared to pull up rest of carpet what should i do ?

hoolign
05-20-2002, 09:26 PM
one word..RRRRRIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPP
I feel so much better knowing I'm not the only one finding this now,that'll teach me for procastinating coulda had this all done during the winter,oh well I'm in Alberta so summers still a ways away

spectras only
05-20-2002, 10:26 PM
Jeff,you call Dave tomorrow morning after 9:30 at 604-278 1880 ,he'll explain how to go about your floor.It's easier to explain on the phone than the internet.Tell him ,you talked to me about it.

hoolign
05-20-2002, 10:35 PM
thanx spectras, I'll do that in the morning

Slick
05-21-2002, 07:53 AM
You're going to need to use resin to coat the wood before you lay it and then glass it to the hull. Most builders will tab to the hull on the outside. When Barney helped me do my floor, we completely bedded the floor to the hull with fiberglass and then tabbed to the hull on top. We also covered the entire floor in figerglass.
Thanks to Barney, I literally have a bulletproof floor. If you're not in the area I'd at least try to speak with him either by e-mail or phone call.
Slick

coolchange
05-21-2002, 08:47 AM
The floor is a major structural part of the boat. It is the third leg of a triangle. If youv'e been running with a rotted floor your weakening your hull from flex

hoolign
05-21-2002, 09:21 AM
hey spectras
just got off the phone with dave,very interesting guy, told me what and how to do it, the previous owner built the stringers [runners] out of plywood then only glassed the bottom to the hull,so naturally the top rotted out chicken louie,so I will use kiln dried fir and they will be 2x8 not plywood,i guess i opened a can of worms here, but should be proper when it's done,should actually go over to the last guys house and have a little discussion regarding monetary compensation,thanx again!
dohara and raskal how you guys makin out?

Hallett19
05-21-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by WetNwild:
I just bought my first boat, a 1977 19ft. Ultra, after finding a large crack in the floor next to one of the stringers I thought the worst. I pulled the interior to find the floor was rotted out. After alot of cutting, grinding and wire brushing I got it all cleaned up and I'm cutting the floor and the runner in right now. For a moment or two I thought I must be crazy, but the hard part is over. Save the old floor for a templet. I'm not sure if I should use water seal to protect the wood. It might keep the fiberglass from sticking to the wood, any ideas would be appreciated? Its nice to see that im not the only one, it seems to be a commin problem.
Has Ultra been around that long ?

DOHARA
05-21-2002, 08:37 PM
Well I made a few phone calls trying to find out price and reasons the floor seperates from the hull. I was quoted around $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 to do the hole floor. I haven't talked to Havasu Barney yet but will try tomorrow. Some shops said it could of been just a bad resin job or the surface wasn't clean. I think I will pull out all carpet and interior after the season is over and see how hard it is to do my self. COOLCHANGE is right. The floor is a major part of the boat that keeps the hull from flexing inward and also calapsing. I see alot of people are having this problem with floors, It really sucks it's such a pain in the ass job to repair. I'm going to call Wilkes Marine in my area and see what they can do for me.

Licketty Split
05-22-2002, 06:41 AM
The floor tends to sepperate when it starts to roght I just finished mine. I hit a roller wrong and landed sideways the drivers seat broke out, a simple remount job turned into repacing the stringers floor tankmounts ect. if you have the time and no money you can do it your self check tese links out
http://home.earthlink.net/~shymu/Contents.html http://www.aircraftspruce.com/main.html http://www.fibreglast.com/

Licketty Split
05-22-2002, 06:48 AM
Home Depot has resine for $23.00 a gallon but get plenty of extra hardener it a slow kick formula 30 minut gel times

coolchange
05-22-2002, 08:31 AM
Hey Licketty, That fibreglast link is great! Watch that store bought resin(bondo) it has a lot of tar in it and wax. I use it when its conveient. Try your local glass shop for resin. Bring your own bucket. I usually pay $25 a Gal.

Licketty Split
05-22-2002, 10:14 AM
This is Everglass it seems like pretty good shit, but it has a long gell time witch could be good or bad... In northern Arizona we dont have any glass shops http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif

hoolign
05-22-2002, 05:15 PM
What a fu#$in pain in the ass this is,i will never buy a second hand boat again!!usually takin things apart is the easy part,noooo not a boat, i don't know how someone can actually do this for a living ,havasu barney my hats off to you,i have never been this bloody itchy in my life,but on the lighter side ....progress!
oh and slick...let me tell you ..grinding is an issue..a damn itchy one

DOHARA
05-22-2002, 07:35 PM
HOOLIGN, I hear you on the glass getting in your skin and itching like shit. I talked to jim wilkes today and he sounds like he's getting my buisiness on re-doing my floor. I will rip out all interior and carpet and leave the rest to the pros. I can't stand working with glass and resin, I agree on the guys that do that work for a living cause it's a pain in the ass and dirty work, materials are cheep but the headache isn't worth my time.
Good luck with your flooring.

ratso
05-22-2002, 08:25 PM
Try wearing Tyvek coveralls to cut down on the itching, also a dust mask or respirator.

WetNwild
05-22-2002, 08:38 PM
Hell, I was itching for 3 days and I think its still in my shoos. The floor and runner are cut and ready to glass. Anyone have an idea how much resin It will take, 10ft by 3 1/2 floor and one runner? I plan to glass the runner, about three inches around the bottom of the floor where it touches the hull and the complet top of the new floor.

Slick
05-23-2002, 07:31 AM
Hoolign,
Barney showed me a little trick when I was at his shop. Of course wear pants and a long-sleave shirt, but coat your skin with baby powder. It'll keep the glass from sticking to you.

Licketty Split
05-23-2002, 07:44 AM
Baby powder good idea
The grinding is the worst....and better yet it does not just wash away so you get a little reminder every time you work on your boat in your arms but....look at what youve done ERERERER

hoolign
05-23-2002, 08:17 AM
OOOOOHHHH thats soft... baby powder works good! I'M A UNITCHY GRINDIN MACHINE! http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif I've got about 30% of it out,and I'm makin one hell of a mess, in my books that's progress!

hoolign
05-26-2002, 08:33 AM
Ok, I have it all gound out,now a question..
can I just clean the fiberglass or should I sand it down to rough it up so the new glass adheres better?

hoolign
05-27-2002, 07:49 AM
well?

travis hathaway
05-27-2002, 06:43 PM
sand it down and rough it up for better adhesion -----

canuck1
05-27-2002, 08:34 PM
Jeff
I'll send a chain saw up for you to play with. call me if you need help )been there wrecked that)

hoolign
05-28-2002, 06:05 AM
hey canuck
pretty much got it under control,thanx for the offer though,about time we got some good weather,my back looks and feels like I got beat with a lobster,hardest part now is fitting the floor,should be done that today

beached1
05-28-2002, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by hoolign:
hey spectras
so I will use kiln dried fir and they will be 2x8 not plywood,
Kiln dired Phillipean Mohogany is the best wood for your boat IMO. They've been using it in surf boards for years. It's harder than fir and will hold up to moisture better.
Just my $.02
I just replaced my floor and stringers also.
Fun.

hoolign
05-28-2002, 11:23 AM
hey beached
fir is just alot easier to get here,if I was still on the coast,I would have used a better product,is that what you used on your boat? the "fun" part, I still have to find that.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif all in all it's not to bad,another couple days and it'll be done!

beached1
05-28-2002, 11:49 AM
I hear ya. If that's all you can get, then that's what will have to go. I'm sure as long as it's kiln dried and wrapped real good in glass, it'll be fine. After talking with Old Rigger by e-mail a couple times he advised me to get some kind of hardwood like white oak and kiln dried of course. I went to a custom cabinet shop since guys like that have to buy specalty woods like Cherry, Mohagany, White Oak etc. They directed me to a special Lumber yard out here in SoCal. It was the guys at this Lumber yard that talked me into using Phillipean Mohagany. They said it's a hardwood (not as hard as White Oak however) that holds up to moisture better than any ather kind. This made sense to me cause I used to surf a little and I seem to remember that most board shops use mohagany for stringers in their surf boards. At least they used to anyway.
Oh yeah, it was a major f'n pain in the a$$ too. Just finshed it. Also just finished taking the hook out of the bottom of the hull yesterday. It's back on the trailer and ready for carpet. Good luck bro.

Licketty Split
05-29-2002, 10:58 AM
Use the fir the strength is in the glass not the wood you could even use half inch if you glass both sides I just finised mine

old rigger
05-29-2002, 11:17 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beached1:
[B] After talking with Old Rigger by e-mail a couple times he advised me to get some kind of hardwood like white oak and kiln dried of course.
?????
Beached1,
I said to use oak? Not me. I said to use either fir or pine, straight grained, kiln dried. If I did say oak in an e-mail, I had my head up my ass. Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. I've never used oak on a boat in my life.
I also see where guys are buying 'marine' grade plywood from home depo or lowes. It's not the same as the marine plywood you'd get from a good lumber yard. Not even close. It's OK to use as a floor in your boat, but put the 2 side by side and there is no comparsion.
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited May 29, 2002).]

old rigger
05-29-2002, 11:26 AM
By the way, if you're itchin' after grinding all that glsss, take a cold shower when your done. A warm or hot one will open up your pores and trap the dust in your skin. A cold one will wash it away like water off a duck's back.

hoolign
05-29-2002, 01:49 PM
If I ever had to do this again,I don't think I'd bitch so much,it aint that bad,with the advice I received on here and from Dave at california marine in vancouver,it worked out pretty slick{pardon the pun]hardest part is cutting the bulkhead to match the hull,I ended up going back for more wood http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Old rigger, I figured that cold shower biz out after two nights of scratchin,between the baby powder and the cold showers it was all good
thanx for the tips you guys

beached1
05-29-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by old rigger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beached1:
[B] After talking with Old Rigger by e-mail a couple times he advised me to get some kind of hardwood like white oak and kiln dried of course.
?????
Beached1,
I said to use oak? Not me. I said to use either fir or pine, straight grained, kiln dried. If I did say oak in an e-mail, I had my head up my ass. Sorry to send you on a wild goose chase. I've never used oak on a boat in my life.
I also see where guys are buying 'marine' grade plywood from home depo or lowes. It's not the same as the marine plywood you'd get from a good lumber yard. Not even close. It's OK to use as a floor in your boat, but put the 2 side by side and there is no comparsion.
[This message has been edited by old rigger (edited May 29, 2002).]
Sorry man, I may have had hardwood on the brain. I used to be a General Contractor. This leads me to my ? Why Fir or Pine? I know that the strenth comes from the glass, but wouldn't you want strong wood as well? The theroy "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" comes to mind. Like I said, according to the lumber yard guys, Phillipean Mohagony is the hardest wood that stands against moisture better than any other. I don't have the # on me but you can contact Reel Lumber in Riverside, CA and ask them for yourself.
BTW, thanks again for your input Old Rigger. I really appreciated it.
Gerrit.
[This message has been edited by beached1 (edited May 29, 2002).]

old rigger
05-30-2002, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beached1:
[B] Why Fir or Pine? I know that the strenth comes from the glass, but wouldn't you want strong wood as well? The theroy "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link" comes to mind. Like I said, according to the lumber yard guys, Phillipean Mohagony is the hardest wood that stands against moisture better than any other. I don't have the # on me but you can contact Reel Lumber in Riverside, CA and ask them for yourself.
Beached1,
I believe ya, and don't need to call the lumber yard. I think I said fir and pine 'cause that's all I've ever used in the shops I've worked in. Even doing buddies boats on the side, I've never tried anything else. Probably due to cost more than anything. There's aways a better way to do something, sounds like that's the way you're going.
As far as there being more strength in the glass than the wood, I don't agree. At least with the boats were messing with. If you have some new carbon fiber thing that's advertised to be 100% wood free, that's another thing. You might have the thickest hull ever layed up, this Spectra I have has over 1 1/8 inches of glass down the keel, but it still wouldn't hold it's shape if it weren't for the 4 full strength stringers in it. This thing is built to last, but it's the quality lay up using both materials that makes it so good.

spectras only
05-30-2002, 09:38 AM
I'm no boat builder like Rigger was,just want ot put my two bits worth here.Mahogany is probably much heavier than fir or spruce for starters.Balsa is lighter, yet with proper encapsulation it offers superior stiffnes.[I still prefer solid fiberglass layups though ,because of puncture resistance].You guys may recall the day when sunrunner started building their boats with foam only as a core,for their fiberglass stringers. It works great as long as you don't start drilling zillions of holes [without proper sealing ] for fastening stuff to the stringers.Same goes with balsa core ,you get it wet= total balsa core destruction! I've seen perfect looking boats with soggy balsa cored hulls ,needing total restoration of the floors.

Licketty Split
05-30-2002, 02:47 PM
The wood is your core the glass is the stringth think of card board and a sheet of paper. I used Plywood for my stringers