Have we reached the limit?

[cyclone]

So i'm looking over my engine the other day, figuring out the next round of mods that i need to make to the boat to keep it competitive and i began wondering what the roof is on naturally aspirated pump gas horsepower? or more directly, what the roof is on power with my current displacement?
Barring any piston to valve contact issues, i'm thinking that if i bump the compression up to 10.5:1, switch to a more aggressive camshaft and larger carb, that 800hp might be an achievable number.
A blower would make things easier but would put me way over that mark and with my goal only being the century mark (mph), would seem to be overkill. Im thinking that another 100-150hp might get me close to the century mark, but not completely there.
oh yeah, i'm not a fan of nitrous so there's no need to even discuss it. And i know that my motor in a different hull would easily get me there but that's not an option. i've got too much time invested in mine.
What do you guys think??

[Floored]

what is your current combo? :confused:

[cyclone]

ZZ 502 crate short block
stock forged bottom end
Moroso oil pump and 10qt pan
comp mechanical roller cam gross lift: .661 intake/.668 exhaust, duration at .050: 254 intake/260 exhaust
1.72 roller rockers
AFR 315 cnc heads
Port-matched Edelbrock Victor JR Air Gap intake
Holley 900HP carb
MSD 7BTM ignition
Basset short collector drag headers
made just over 740hp on the dyno.
compression is 9.25:1

[Blown 472]

Only 800 with a single carb and 10.5 to 1? why not 900 or 950 why put a limit on it, I am sure westech will get you what ever you want. :rolleyes:

[cyclone]

damn blown cant you pull your head out of your ass for two minutes? :confused: if you dont have any valuable info to share then get the hell off the thread.
i dont think over 800hp is realistic. 800 might not even be.

[Sangster]

Thats what I'm Talkin' about..... :D :D

[Blown 472]

cyclone:
damn blown cant you pull your head out of your ass for two minutes? :confused: if you dont have any valuable info to share then get the hell off the thread.
i dont think over 800hp is realistic. 800 might not even be. Sure it is I am rollin a big fattie
Why dont you e mail Sonny Lenoard and ask him, then post what he has to say.
[ August 21, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

cyclone:
made just over 740hp on the dyno.
compression is 9.25:1 you smell that????? It's that same smell as before. better get out the waders again.
Omega

[Blown 472]

only 700 hp (http://www.sonnysracingengines.com/flyers/STREETSTRIP555CUIN.htm)

[cyclone]

i dont know sonny leonard. why dont you call him and bring that valuable info to this thread. Why dont you do something, anything other than talk smack?

[Blown 472]

cyclone:
i dont know sonny leonard. why dont you call him and bring that valuable info to this thread. Why dont you do something, anything other than talk smack? Now that is some funny shit, me talking smack.
I am really sorry, I have a cold and feeling surly, I shall never question you agian, what rpm are you turning on a b cut agian?? hehehehehehehe
BTW I did, did you see the only 700 hp web page??
[ August 21, 2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[kojac]

Sounds like a good horsepower # already. What pump and cut impellar are you running and where are you making your torque and horsepower?
Seems to me you should be able to reach 100mph with that engine combo unless your boat is very heavy or setup is way wrong.
I just got a friend's 1978 nordic tunnel jet to go from 73mph to 86mph (on the radar)and didn't get to finish trying to improve his speed before he got drunk over the weekend and ran the motor for his friends while the boat was on the trailer.(no water in pump) Now have to replace impellar, bushings, wear ring, and new stuffer plate. This boat doesn't have a shoe and ride plate setup(next thing to install). The motor is a 468 chevy with 10-1 compression chevy square port closed chamber heads. flat tappet cam. (don't know numbers yet as have not got into motor and he has no idea) a set of 660 holleys with an edelbrock tunnel ram.
We got the speed inprovements by just changing wedges, going from a "b" cut impellar to a "b/c" cut impellar and changing nozzles,trying different intake loaders and getting rid of the external Place droop and rideplate combo :) . Suspect the horsepower is in the 460 horsepower range. Not dynoed.
The goal with present set up (after pump repairs)is 90mph.
Dale.

[cyclone]

6,000 rpm at over 94 mph.

[cyclone]

kojak its a B-cut impeller.

[cyclone]

blown- we all know that you question both mine and HB's numbers. You've established that time and time again. The point is that since you've already said your peace, shut the hell up unless you have an answer to my original question, not a rude comment.

[Johnwithjm]

I am making 830hp on pump gas. Why do you guys think that is so hard to do. I have seen Cyclones boat runs and it runs hard. If you don't believe it come out to big river and line up against him.

[Cs19]

Ouch. 15 grand for one of sonnys motors. Cyclone, how far can you push the crate motor bottom end? What do you guys think the limit is on that bottom end? You could always put some money into that and blueprint everything your self so you know whats in it and know you have a bulletproof rotating assembly and build up from there. A 4.250 stroke crank would be some easy C.I. and its probably stronger than the gm deal. unless of course your confident/happy in the stuff you have now. Or maybe a tunnel ram set up? I agree with you on the NOS, ive never been a NOS fan.

[HBjet]

Sonny's 555ci 700HP 9.5:1 comp motor sells for $14,900.........
Damn, some some people think I spent a lot, well, I can tell you my motor didn't cost anything close to that motor....
Oh, I wonder if they will knock off 600 bucks from the price because I know some people think having it dyno'd is just a waste of time. Oh and I wonder what the measured numbers are on that motor?
HBjet

[Cs19]

john is that 830 horse motor the one in your crusader? I think BP is making 850 or so HP on pump gas too. :D I love seeing all the pump gas motors making all this power, it just blows peoples minds. :)

[cyclone]

CS19- i've been told the weak point on the bottom end is the rod bolts. I would like to change those at some point. But the crank is a decent forged steel part and the rods look good too. I think it will hold up fine at the rpms i'm running.

[BK]

Blown, you truley are a hater! People like you are what makes this place LAME and why some with alot to offer dont stick around long. Cyclone started a subject that could be educationall to most of us (except you of course, since you allready know everything!!!) and you shit on it before it even gets going. Theres probley plenty of people who would have valiable info to add but wont post now because they dont want to get involved in the drama. If you dont have anything constructive to say then just shut the F@#K up!!!!!! your act is tired. :mad:

[HBjet]

Cyclone, why do you want to go faster? 94+ is very good.
HBjet

[cyclone]

i'd like to see the specs on your motor too john. What's the displacent?

[Moneypitt]

800 Hp from a 10.5:1, carbed motor, Has technology really come that far????...Moneypitt

[Cs19]

Yeah, If i was dumping 15 grand on a motor right now i wouldnt be showing up with that motor.

[Johnwithjm]

cs19:
john is that 830 horse motor the one in your crusader? I think BP is making 850 or so HP on pump gas too. :D I love seeing all the pump gas motors making all this power, it just blows peoples minds. :) No that motor is in my deckboat

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

I have a real important question also john. how many cubic inches are you using to make the 830hp? I'm guessing that it is a bit more than 502. I could be wrong. I never said 700,800...wasn't attainable on pump gas. anyone seen the new caddy that makes 1,000hp? of course it isn't 500ci either. cubic inches are the easiest way to make hp. i simply said the 1.47hp per cubic inch is not possible on a pump gas n/a engine.
Omega

[Johnwithjm]

cyclone:
i'd like to see the specs on your motor too john. What's the displacent? Cyclone it is a small 582 :D I will give you all the specs next weekend at the river.

[Cs19]

thats what i thought john, thanks. I believe i met the guy who does your motors at lost lake, seems like a pretty sharp guy.
cyclone, Im glad to hear that bottom is a keeper. Just do some bolt ons and hit that 100 mph mark, sounds easy enough. :)

[HBjet]

Moneypitt:
800 Hp from a 10.5:1, carbed motor, Has technology really come that far????...Moneypitt It sure has!
check this out 1053hp (http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0206_1000/index.html)
HBjet

[cyclone]

its my belief that cylinder head technology has come far enough to make these pump gas engines work as well as they do.
john-thanks ill pick his brain next weekend.
Omega-right we heard you the last 50 times you said that. But getting back to my original question.....

[flat broke]

Mike,
IMO, your motor is a nicely optimized setup. To make changes from that package, you will be compromising the balance you have right now. Displacement is probably the most cost effective way to increase your HP at this point. Keep your current rods, change your stroke and bore that block. I know that the .635 rod with a 4.25 stroke probably isn't Dave's favorite rod length ratio, but it could work out alright.
The only caveat to doing this is that your heads could probably be a little larger once you up the displacement. The good news though is that the displacement change is basically pistons, a crank, and some machine work. Then while your there you can blueprint your clearances as CS19 indicated.
The other way to to about getting to your goal is to address the effiency of your setup (I know the pump is not in question here) as a whole. Loose the interior for fiberglass seats with covers, change your fuel tank setup, etc. are all options that would help loose some weight and increase the MPH at your current RPM. All of those ideas are compromises against what the boat is in its current state, but they would probably help you hit your mark.
You could alter your setup and trade a safe ride for a looser ride and really fly the boat, that might be good for an MPH or two. But honestly you have an awesome boat that is turnkey reliable, can go out and run in most conditions, seats 4 and will catch plenty of tunnels asleep at the wheel.
If it were me that had the bug with your boat, and cost wasn't a consideration, I'd go in favor of more cubes and keep the rest of the boat as useable as possible. But honestly who else can say they have a V hull with a pump gas single carb 502 running at 94?
Chris

[kojac]

Curious? What did your dyno show for horsepower and torque at 6000rpm"s? Based on a "b"cut impellar I would guess that your not reaching your maximum horsepower shown on the dyno. What kind of boat and hull design?
Dale.. :)
r

[cyclone]

flatbroke- other than raising the ride plate and machinging the droop to take out the divider, i'll be leaving the setup alone. I'm pretty happy with it.
I'd like to keep the interior intact so adding more displacement does seem like the way to go.
Although, maybe cutting the impeller to a B/C would help out.
Kojac- im not spinning the impeller to the engine's optimum power level. it made 741hp at 6,400 rpm. It made 678 lbs/tq at 5,800 rpm and never dropped below 670 lbs/tq from 4,500 to 5,500 rpm.

[victorfb]

mike, what distributer are you running, and have you had it curved to your application? that might bump up a couple pony's. id say if youve done all you can to the pump, then try and get the motor to breath more. higher compression is an option aswell, but id bet youll have some trouble running pump gas with 10.5:1. though the aluminium heads help out in that aspect.
the CNC heads might be able to handle a bit more massaging aswell, but thats a tricky deal. alot of variables there. take em to a pro if your gunna want all you can out of em.
if your really gunna get into it you can have the cylinders machine honed with torque plates to increase the piston to wall clearance from the factory 0.0035-0.004 to a safe 0.004-0.006 aiding in cylinder roundness. still useing the factory pistons, but replacing the ring sets. Speed-Pro plasma-moly top ring, Total Seal slant-gap 2 piece for the second groove, and a speed pro standard tension oil ring. all this should bring your leak down to 1-2 percent. thats a huge compression savings.
with all these great motor builders on this site giving you advice and info, im sure you will be able to get the combo your after and reach that goal. damn i sure want to see it...

[Blown 472]

[ August 21, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[cyclone]

vic- now those are some good ideas. i'll have to look into that as well. AFR does have 325, 335 adn 345cc CNC programs that they can run on my heads (mine are the 315's). i was under the impression that with my displacement these maybe too big??

[kojac]

I checked your profile and saw the :) Rogers V hull. That answered that question. But I am still curious about the horsepower and torque at 6000 Rpms. I am interested to see if your torque ft#'s fell off more at 6000 rpm's than your horsepower increased. Generally I have found that at the rpm point that torque starts to fall off more than horsepower increases that is the point that the pump impellar stops pulling. I would like to verify if that is the case or not.
Thanks
Dale...

[cyclone]

kojac- here ya go:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/45IMG_0257-med.JPG

[Windy]

But your guys' trailers are looking really embarrassing...I hope winter never comes :D
Have fun this weekend Mike.

[Danhercules]

You could swap my 460 for your 502. That would work!!!!!!! :D :D :D
I wish I has somthin good to add, but I dont know much about V8's, but I am learing.
vic, your a fart smeller!!!

[cyclone]

misshb- i think you should you should buy randy a new trailer for xmas. now that would make you the bestest gf in the world. :D

[Danhercules]

What about the bolt on i mean stick on aftermarket part that goes on the valve cover I have read so much about?

[victorfb]

matching displacement is a must yes, but the rest of the combo aids in the decision aswell. cam lift and timing, comp ratio, intake system, ignition system, all is a factor. id really look into doing the cylinder machine-hone and rering with the set up i mentioned. that should help quite a bit. and the dist, recurve aswell.

[Windy]

cyclone:
misshb- i think you should you should buy randy a new trailer for xmas. now that would make you the bestest gf in the world. :D The 750 DPs dont make me the best anymore wink

[victorfb]

lol. Danno, you crack me up!!!
i need a sticker... :D
and of course im a fart smeller, being around you so much... :p

[kojac]

Vic may have the idea with the heads. A good pro with the proper flow bench capabilities should be able to determine what it takes to get your air intake speed up to 348ft per second in the rpm range you need in order to reach your goal. With your ft# number of above 675 at 5800Rpm's I would think that a "b"cut impellar would turn higher rpm's. I would check with one of the pump specialist. One of my chevy 468's only made 675 Hp on the dyno at 6500rpm's. Torque was 570ft#'s at 5600rpm's. But it would turn a "b"cut impellar to 6200 rpm's at 102 mph. I think the key was that at the 6200rpm mark the ft# dropped more than the horsepower gained. It sounds more like your turning an "A" or a "A plus" impellar with those rpm numbers.
Dale..

[schiada96]

I have to call bullshit on the 1041 hp pump gas deal. I know it was published long ago and that the boat ran well but be real 1.8 hp per ci. You don't see big name engine guys claiming such numbers

[HBjet]

schiada96:
I have to call bullshit on the 1041 hp pump gas deal. I know it was published long ago and that the boat ran well but be real 1.8 hp per ci. You don't see big name engine guys claiming such numbers Come on out to the races..... And why is it only counts when a Big Name guy/shop does it? Oh, and how many of those Big Name guy/shops are working on making big HP with pump gas?
Please name a few for our comparision.
HBjet

[kojac]

The dyno confirms my suspicions. At 5900 rpm's You made 644 ft#'s of torque and 724 Hp. At 6000rpm's You made 636 Ft#'s of torque and 727 hp. Ft# dropped 7#'s and you only gained 3 horsepower. The motor quit pulling at 6000 rpm's
Looking at your bscp at .411 and your air fuel ratio at 14.43 you are close to stroicametric fuel ratio of 14.7. This is not what you want for maximum power. A better fuel ratio of 12.5 to 13 would probably make more power. I would suggest fattening up the jets. Check with one of the power guru's for confirmation.
Hope this helps.
dale.. :)

[kojac]

Thanks, The dyno confirmed my suspicions. between 5900 and 6000 rpm's you dropped 7 ft#'s of torque and only gained 3 horsepower. The motor stopped pulling at 6000 rpm's.
Looking your basic fuel consumption a .411 and your air fuel ratio at 14.53 I would suggest fattening up your jets. At 14.53 you are close to a stroicametric 14.7 A/F ratio. I think that you should try to run a A/F ratio of 12.5 to 13 A/F for more power. You might make the 800hp you are looking for and up your torque numbers to a higher rpm to pull your impellar up.
I would check with the power guru's for confirmation. :)
hope this helps.
dale..

[schiada96]

HB I go to the races,been to the races. I just feel that that hp is unrealistic, it takes me 17 lbs of boost and race gas to get close to that.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

schiada96:
HB I go to the races,been to the races. I just feel that that hp is unrealistic, it takes me 17 lbs of boost and race gas to get close to that. when all you really need is a sticker.... :D wink
Omega

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

kojac:
Thanks, The dyno confirmed my suspicions. between 5900 and 6000 rpm's you dropped 7 ft#'s of torque and only gained 3 horsepower. The motor stopped pulling at 6000 rpm's.
Looking your basic fuel consumption a .411 and your air fuel ratio at 14.53 I would suggest fattening up your jets. At 14.53 you are close to a stroicametric 14.7 A/F ratio. I think that you should try to run a A/F ratio of 12.5 to 13 A/F for more power. You might make the 800hp you are looking for and up your torque numbers to a higher rpm to pull your impellar up.
I would check with the power guru's for confirmation. :)
hope this helps.
dale.. and the crowd goes silent............. :rolleyes:

[cyclone]

Kojac- that is exactly the info i'm looking for. thank you.
Omega- another worthless post as usual.

[kojac]

Back to your original question of how to bump up the speed of the boat I would say that you aready have enough hp and torque. You just need to put the horsepower and torque in a higher rpm range.
Some of the suggestions are helpful but you might consider longer rods a little more compression and longer camshaft duration to move your combination into a higher realm. I would then consider borrowing a buddy's edelbrock tunnel ram with 2 660 center squirter' to see if more air is required to support the higher rpm's.
Just a thought.
dale :)

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

cyclone:
Kojac- that is exactly the info i'm looking for. thank you.
Omega- another worthless post as usual. about as worthless as that piece of paper you treasure so much.....give DNE a call. I'm sure he can hook you up with the info you need. a sticker might just put you over the mark also.......
Omega
ps you had 30 minutes and that is the best answer you could come up with. time to put the bong down dude.......

[HBjet]

schiada96:
HB I go to the races,been to the races. I just feel that that hp is unrealistic, it takes me 17 lbs of boost and race gas to get close to that. What are the specs on your motor if you don't mind telling, and who built it?
Thanks
HBjet

[Blown 472]

HBjet:
schiada96:
HB I go to the races,been to the races. I just feel that that hp is unrealistic, it takes me 17 lbs of boost and race gas to get close to that. What are the specs on your motor if you don't mind telling, and who built it?
Thanks
HBjet Here comes the discrediting. :rolleyes:

[cyclone]

ps you had 30 minutes and that is the best answer you could come up with. time to put the bong down dude....... omega- I dont hang on your every word so you'll have to excuse me if i dont reply as quick as you'd like.
Love your bong remark, dude. Was there smoke coming out of your ears when trying to think up that one?
back to the original question......

[schiada96]

I built it along with rigging the boat from a bare hull. The motor has never been on a dyno.
510 cu chevy 9.8 deck 4.53 bore, Eagle crank and rods J&E pistons C&A rings, engle #7 turbo cam. WP heads inconel valves, crane rockers,comp push rods lot's of stuff. T04 turbonetis turbos. Big intercooler what else do you want to know.
The boat is right at 100 mph. Lee has said it takes 1000 hp to make this boat go 100.
Hook a skier up to it and race
[ August 21, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: schiada96 ]

[Blown 472]

Cyclone, I think you are getting to the point of breaking parts, you go bigger on a cam you have to look at the springs all the time and the rest of the maint that goes along with it. Why not just dig on what you have and drive it??
My buddy just recamed his motor as it was tearing shit up and it got really old in a hurry, so I guess you have to consinder working on it or digging on it???

[Cs19]

Is porting the AFR heads the best bet? From what i have heard some guys are getting real carried away in cylinder head porting and are losing some velocity in the intake port cause they are over porting their heads and in order to get such big ports to work you need high RPM which most jetboats are not seeing.Im not an expert but I was chatting with some experts the other day about the porting beind done to my Dart heads and this what i picked up from the conversation. What kind of increase do you guys think the 4.250 stroke will give cyclone? He will pick up 30 cubic inches roughly.

[cyclone]

thanks blown- that's more like it. Now if we could just get Omega to post something worthwhile we'd all get along much better.
According to comp, the cam i have now will allow the springs to last about 300hrs. I'm unusure if i can go much bigger and still have some measure of longevity. I dont mind changing the springs once a year, but not more than that. Guess i need to make another phone call. Maybe i can change the profile, and not increase the valve lift?

[cyclone]

cs19- i also question whether or not i should have the heads ported again. Im definately interested in hearing what a stroker crank would be worth in my application. I'm not sure how big i could bore this block with the siamese bores. Anyone got an answer on that?

[Omega Bubble Jets Daddy]

Cyclone and hb jet you must accept my sincere apologies. My half wit, mental useless pantywaste of a boy is out of control. His mom and I try to do our best to keep him silent but he has ways of spewing useless dribble. I will try to control his outbursts in here the best I can.

[Cs19]

keep in mind block notching is required for that crank, you really have to tear into the motor for the crank swap. So while its apart, might as well send the block out to pfaaf for all the nice machine work,new SRP pistons, some rings, scat 4.250 crank and new rods, and you will be set. 3-4 grand later your back on the water. :D J/K. run what you have the rest of the summer and do your changes this winter. Did you get beat by someone yet this summer?

[cyclone]

cs19- i did get passed once a few weeks back but my main motivation for making more power is that the boat doesn't scare me any more. Its super stable over 90 mph and i just want to go faster. well that and i dont want HB Jet passing me.. :D

[Taylorman]

Omega Bubble Jets Daddy:
Cyclone and hb jet you must accept my sincere apologies. My half wit, mental useless pantywaste of a boy is out of control. His mom and I try to do our best to keep him silent but he has ways of spewing useless dribble. I will try to control his outbursts in here the best I can. LMFAO, thats some funny sh@t.

[kojac]

Cyclone,
cs19 is right about the porting the heads. Velocity not just big ports is the way to think about your heads. Real big ports with too small bore diameter just makes the motor go blah. There is a head porter in florida that can port your heads to the 348 cubic feet per second velocity I mentioned in my previous post. If you go much past 360 feet per second you get sonic boom. That would disrupt the intake charge and would kill performance. I will try to get his name and you can contact him. He made a 1000 hp with a 509chevy motor with old chevy aluminum heads. He actually had to install epoxy to make the heads smaller and then port the heads again. The stock square port chambers were too big to make the velocity required to make the 1000 hp mark. The motor was not a 10.1 compression motor though. It was a 16.1 compression motor with a .800+ lift cam. Horse power was made at 7800rpm's
The point is port the heads to fit the velocity required for the rpm range want to run.
I don't think you need a higher lift cam. Maybe more duration. Also I would think about spreading your lobe center a little. You might might not make quite as much torque but it may help move your torque range in a higher rpm mode. (without looking at your cam specs.)
In a previous conversation with Dave at DNE he mentioned a valvespring company in michigan that specializes in good wire for valvesprings. He said that they would guarantee three year spring life. And that's for an .800+ lift cam. They should certainly be able to set you up with with something durable. Not cheap but I would rather pay $600.00 for a set of springs that will last 3 years than 3 sets of spring that last a few months. Broken valve springs cause your boat to stop on the lake in 100+ degree heat. other boaters swamp your boat. You have to be towed home. Have to change valvesprings in heat. replace roller cam. Take apart motor. Clean motor and reinstall it. It ruin your whole day. Been there,done that.
dale.. :)

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

oh thanks alot.....I just got a talking to from my elderly father. now I'm in real trouble.....as long as mom don't find out I'm okay.
Omega (with dad watching over the shoulder)

[cyclone]

kojak- it sounds like a call to Dave is in order. I think i've taken my garage skills and motor to the limit. I guess the professionals may need to be called-in this winter.

[HBjet]

cyclone:
I'm not a fan of nitrous so there's no need to even discuss it.Great! you go and do what you gotta do to that crate motor.... And I'll add a nice 225 shot to mine. See you on the water!
Oh, Cyclone, are you going to have this thing together for the BBSP later this year?
HBjet

[cyclone]

when is BBSP?

[Floored]

I saw your boat at the CBBB and it sounded very nice. you could bring the compression up due to the alum heads. A dominator carb setup could possibly help. I remember you changed your dist curve to come in quicker and it helped. Have you checked into reverse cooling to allow more compression without detonation, just a thought, like chevy did to allow the new LT1 to run more comp on pump gas. the 4.250 crank would get the magic 800 for you and at a lower rpm but with stock length rods that is alot of rod angularity and side loading on the cylinder walls, increased friction and ring and piston wear. there is always a tradeoff, nothing is free. you have a good working combo that with a little fine tuning, intake, jetting,pump, rideplate, that could very well hit the century mark. Imagine sea level and flat water at 70 deg. :cool:

[cyclone]

floored- i'm looking forward to running the boat during a nice so.cal winter (70-degrees). i've yet to run in less than 90 degree temps.
What's this reverse cooling thing your talking about?

[Cs19]

cyclone:
kojak- it sounds like a call to Dave is in order. I think i've taken my garage skills and motor to the limit. I guess the professionals may need to be called-in this winter. hurry up and get in line, its going to be a busy winter for DNE :D

[cyclone]

that's what i've heard. I'll bet Big Proppa is chompin' at the bit. Can't wait to hear that blower motor run next weekend at Big River.

[Hotcrusader76]

cyclone:
floored- i'm looking forward to running the boat during a nice so.cal winter (70-degrees). i've yet to run in less than 90 degree temps.
What's this reverse cooling thing your talking about? My summer is just starting...LOL
Some good ole Dove hunting in the morning, boating during the winter's day (might have to wear a shirt though), and BBQs at night. Gotta love McIntrye Park (lower Blythe)
Hopefully I'll run her so hard she'll need a new build by next Summer... :D
[ August 21, 2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[Floored]

instead of running the water through the block from front to rear and up into the rear of the heads and out through the thermostat housing the water runs from the front of the heads to the rear and down into the block and then out through the front of the block. this way it cools the cylinder heads first and the lower cyl head temps help prevent detonation. this is kinda the simplified version but it works. its actually been around a long time

[MAXIMUS]

Wow all this brain power & info & not 1 person questioned the set up on the boat??? There is no way you can tell me that the hardware is totally optimum & there is nothing left to do. All the shots I have seen of cyclons boat look to me like there is some room for improvment. If that boat is rock solid at wot then its time to loosen her up a bit! I have made my boat gain 20 mph with just hardware & jet stuff. I will improve my 109 mark with out stepping on the motor! Cyclone if you are smart you will start bugging Jack & working more on improving the hardware!! Cheap & way more effective!!! Also remember that when traveling those speeds you will need controlled conditions, & safety gear! This isn't the same as running 80 with your girlfriend next to you waving!!! :cool:

[MAXIMUS]

Sorry scratch that last post... Build more hp!!! smile_sp

[PC Rat]

I think you would see a sizeable gain by the changes that you initially mentioned. A little more carburetion, either a tunnel ram with dual carbs or maybe a dominator on your existing intake with a tapered spacer. A bit more aggressive cam, and get the compression up to maybe 10.5:1 to 11:1 with your current cam or 12:1 with a little more aggressive cam. With your current cam and compression ratio, I would suspect your cranking compression to be a bit low, like 140s.

[565edge]

Cyclone i dont know how big you can go with you bore in that block but a 4.25 stroke crank and 4.500 bore with some .250 or .400 long rods and you will see more power,if your heads have the same castings as the bigger afrs have them put the larger cnc program through them,i would run a cam around 725 lift 265 275 at .050 on a 112,put a single dominator on it and make your compression 11.5:1,You can put a 4.375 stroke crank in that shortdeck block with a .250 long rod now too?The simple way would be to lay a 150hp kit of the bottle to it?

[Jake W]

OK I shoud stay out of this because I do not know shit about motors but since people are telling you to add more carb like a Dominator.I have seen a bad ass set up that included a sheet metal single high rise intake made for a dominator.It was on a race boat.This is the kinfd of set up I would like to run. I think it cost him a little over 1000 for the intake.
JetHydro or Duane from HTP if you read this who made Randys(no joke) intake ? :confused:
Jake :D

[PipesClean]

!
[ August 21, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: PipesClean ]

[mickeyfinn]

seems like I read in one of the V-drive threads that if you take out a seat you will pick up 10-15mph...LOL :D

[Bense468]

Cyclone I talked to Dave the other day about the afr heads. He thinks that opening them up to big is not a great idea. He said they flow really good out of the box and he likes cleaning up around the valve seat a little bit. We had a lenghtly discussion about all these people that just want to port the shit out of their motors.
Me personally, I think if you wanted more you should have went with that in the first place, but that is my opinion. I think it will cost a lot of money and down time to go about it again to gain that 50 horse that you will probably get. It is your money though, so do what you like. You said Nos is not an option but you never said injected on alcohol was out of the question but that kind of is not a pump gas motor then. That will give you the TQ you are looking for though. I would not recommend going to a BC.
Save the money, buy your girl a bitchen bathing suit to floss. Drive the shit out of it and show people whats up with what you got. You get to deep on a river boat and next thing you know you will be out 1 or 2 weekends a summer. So what you got passed. There is always someone out there faster, and sometimes you run into the race boats. You can't win, just make due with what you built.
[ August 21, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Bense468 ]

[2allbeefpatties]

Cyclone
the easiest way to get to where you want to go is build a motor that is big on inches. You can build a 572 and run it on pump gas with a single dominator and mild roller. That thing would be a work horse and low maintenance. 4.500 bore x 4.500 stroke. 10-1 compression. You would probably make 850 hp.

[schiada96]

I've got a question ? Why dosen't Teague offer a mild 572 with a small roller that makes 850 hp?

[wrightnow]

Cyclone,
Just leave the motor alone, It runs great and there is NO need to go any fast....(right Randy)
Mark
I'm glad I'm already in-line at DNE

[Johnwithjm]

Rio you going to be out for Labor day? Hoping to have my new Pinto motor that made 1000 hp on diesel ready :D :D
[ August 21, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Johnwithjm ]

[HBjet]

Bense468:
Save the money, buy your girl a bitchen bathing suit to floss. Drive the shit out of it and show people whats up with what you got. You get to deep on a river boat and next thing you know you will be out 1 or 2 weekends a summer. So what you got passed. There is always someone out there faster, and sometimes you run into the race boats. You can't win, just make due with what you built. Jeff, I don't think Mike cares about being passed (hehe) I just think he wants to hit the 100mph mark.
HBjet

[DogHouse]

Johnwithjm:
I am making 830hp on pump gas. Why do you guys think that is so hard to do.John, what kind of rpm did that come at and what did the torque curve look like on your 582? I'm curious to know what my setup might have made with more cam. I went a little conservative to maintain idle quality and ended up with a torque monster that idles happily at 800 rpm and still made 813hp. I was "secretly" hoping for a little more power but probably ended up with the right combo for a bravo in a heavy boat.
-brian

[littleC]

Randy
I think if you took your backseat your icechest maybe the anchor possibly the passenger seat and had somebody that weighed 100 lbs driving half gallon of gas you may have beaten mike aka cyclone below the bridge Saturday evening. Or maybe you may hit the 93mph mark.

[HBjet]

littleC:
Randy
I think if you took your backseat your icechest maybe the anchor possibly the passenger seat and had somebody that weighed 100 lbs driving half gallon of gas you may have beaten mike aka cyclone below the bridge Saturday evening. Or maybe you may hit the 93mph mark. Actually, when we both got on it, I have still over 1/2 tanks of gas, 2 large coolers, anchor, So it wasn't going to be close. Mike knows who passed who the following day. :D
HBjet

[victorfb]

hey mike, from what im reading your pretty adiment on the higher lift cam but worried about the valve springs longevity. have you considered the longer valve stems? or do you allready have them? that would allow you to run a larger/longer spring with less coil bind. saving the spring life. a good gear drive set to keep the cam timing exactly were you want it might be a consideration aswell.
i mentioned earlier about "massaging" the heads more. i didnt mean porting them wide open, what i meant was to clean the heads up in certain areas, especially in the combustion chamber and around the valves. mainly the back side to aid in flow. and if the ports are tested to be a little less than optimum, then by all means do (a little) work there aswell. but like some have mentioned allready, dont get too carried away with it. a little goes a long way here.
dropping the leak down by the machine hone and re-ring set i mentioned earlier would optimize the cylinder and pistons you are running now. but if you want to increase the bore and stroke that would definatly give you more HP. though id like to see you achieve your goal with the 502. (my personal feeling of course. :D )
some carb work may also be a consideration, or possibly a slightly larger one. duells if you want to go that route, but again id like to see the goal reached with a single. do alot of jet testing to get optimum A/F.
remember too to take all this with a grain of salt. im no pro motor builder, but i do love to build em in my mind. ( i cant even afford to do that ) :p one thing i did read that i thoroughly enjoyed was the safty factor. even at the speed your running now, it can be dangerous. we have lost WAY too many drivers/racers on the water. and i want to see you running that cyclone for a long long time. :D

[HBjet]

FYI for everyone that might be waiting for Cyclone to post.... He won't be able to check this thread for the next 3 days and should be back to his usual posting habits on Monday!
HBjet

[victorfb]

i knew he shouldnt have checked in with his parole officer. :p

[FryJet]

I am not a cheerleader, dont know HB and Cyclone, dont have a really fast boat but this is what I think. These two guys have done one hell of a job at making their boats work, V-bottoms no less. Who cares if some big name company's did some of the work. You can dick with a setup for ever and not get it right so what the hell, take it to someone who knows about it and look what happens. Engines, pumps, bottoms, it takes alot of experience to make this shit work, TOGETHER. To see pump gas, 500 ci, 90 MPH V-bottoms is really impressive, admit it. Its not like nobody has seen them run, John (JM) has and he runs a fast boat as well as alot of other people on the board. Are they lying about GPS #'s? Are they not running pump gas? I dont think so. There are more people that say these boats run just as hard as the owners say than people that doubt it. These guys have alot of patience when it comes to all of the ribbing, and that says alot about them. They spent the money where they felt they needed to and that makes them bad guys? I dont think so. If you can afford it and it puts you where you want to be then how is that bad? These guys are doing what they want to and for that I say "NICE ****ING JOB" There are some people that make decisions and make things happen and then some that talk about it but never do anything. Well im sorry to tell all you nay sayers but these two guys made it happen and they are happy with their results, bottom line. Thats what I have to say and if you dont like I wont cry about it. Drop all the horse shit and have fun, its what boating is all about. Sorry about the long post but some of these people are starting to sound like broken records, drop it for christ sakes.
F.J.

[FryJet]

Wow, I made a 3rd page with all this crap. Do I get a prize?
F.J.

[victorfb]

not sure if you get a prize for making it to a third page, but i think you deserve one for the post. i cant agree with ya more. these guys are doing what they love and have a passion for. why would anyone knock that? i dont race my boat and i dont race on here either. i just love to see and hear about all these guys making thier sh*t work. gotta love it. :D

[Taylorman]

schiada96:
I've got a question ? Why dosen't Teague offer a mild 572 with a small roller that makes 850 hp? Pick me, me teacher, because it costs about $25,000. HEHE

[DogHouse]

Taylorman:
schiada96:
I've got a question ? Why dosen't Teague offer a mild 572 with a small roller that makes 850 hp? Pick me, me teacher, because it costs about $25,000. HEHE Trust me, there is nothing "mild" about a 572 that makes 850hp without a blower!
[ August 22, 2003, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: DogHouse ]

[Snorider]

Even though this is slightly off-topic, just wanted to show omega, and a few others, that you can get high HP-CI ratios on pump gas, naturally aspirated.
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
Even though it is a pontiac motor, that is irrelevant here. His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
So, even if we take the middle road, and say 725hp out of 474ci, that is a ratio of 1.52... pretty damn good if you ask me.
Oh, and he ran that motor on horsepower TV, not like their dyno is any better than the next guy, but he has been building motors that big for years.
I cant seem to find the article, but i vaguely remember him building a dual blower motor that was around 1500-2000hp on pump gas, if i remember, it was 27-32 lbs of boost or something insane like that...
And to think, if the 474ci version can do 700-750, what can he do with the 541ci aftermarket block? 541*1.5 = 811

[schiada96]

I'll say that it would be hard to produce a reliable 850 hp on pump gas. That is why I asked the question why dosent Teague offer one. If it could be done with such ease why do we not see ads
all over the place for one such motor.

[Blown 472]

Snorider:
Even though this is slightly off-topic, just wanted to show omega, and a few others, that you can get high HP-CI ratios on pump gas, naturally aspirated.
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
Even though it is a pontiac motor, that is irrelevant here. His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
So, even if we take the middle road, and say 725hp out of 474ci, that is a ratio of 1.52... pretty damn good if you ask me.
Oh, and he ran that motor on horsepower TV, not like their dyno is any better than the next guy, but he has been building motors that big for years.
I cant seem to find the article, but i vaguely remember him building a dual blower motor that was around 1500-2000hp on pump gas, if i remember, it was 27-32 lbs of boost or something insane like that...
And to think, if the 474ci version can do 700-750, what can he do with the 541ci aftermarket block? 541*1.5 = 811 Read what this guy has to say bout butler web page (http://www.pontiacpower.com/index.html)
also check out his ponchos

[Snorider]

Blown 472:
Snorider:
Even though this is slightly off-topic, just wanted to show omega, and a few others, that you can get high HP-CI ratios on pump gas, naturally aspirated.
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
Even though it is a pontiac motor, that is irrelevant here. His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
So, even if we take the middle road, and say 725hp out of 474ci, that is a ratio of 1.52... pretty damn good if you ask me.
Oh, and he ran that motor on horsepower TV, not like their dyno is any better than the next guy, but he has been building motors that big for years.
I cant seem to find the article, but i vaguely remember him building a dual blower motor that was around 1500-2000hp on pump gas, if i remember, it was 27-32 lbs of boost or something insane like that...
And to think, if the 474ci version can do 700-750, what can he do with the 541ci aftermarket block? 541*1.5 = 811 Read what this guy has to say bout butler web page (http://www.pontiacpower.com/index.html)
also check out his ponchos Another good site :D
455ci producting 650hp on 91octane... 610hp on 87octane...
The blurb about their 350 beating the 474 is kinda funny :p There has got to be more behind that story.

[Blown 472]

There is, no love lose tween the two of them.

[Snorider]

I think a jetboat would love that pontiac 350....
539hp on pump gas, 672hp on nitrous... thats alotta power for a small block.

[Taylorman]

Cyclone, why not throw a blower on that thing? If thats not an option, you could borrow your boy HB's intake and carbs and give that a try. I would hate to see you start riping the crank and pistons out of a new engine.
[ August 22, 2003, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Taylorman ]

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Snorider:
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
hey if you want to quote them use the whole quote
(700-750+ HP with HIGHER COMPRESSION and More Aggressive Camshaft) you know what higher compression means? no more pump gas. so yes 1.5hp per cube is possible just not on 91 octane. I like the fact that you are thinking though. why don't you give ole Jim a call and ask him how much compression it takes him to make that 750hp. I think you might be surprised.... :D :D
Omega
[ August 22, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET ]

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

schiada96:
I'll say that it would be hard to produce a reliable 850 hp on pump gas. That is why I asked the question why dosent Teague offer one. If it could be done with such ease why do we not see ads
all over the place for one such motor. because Teague ain't got chit on DNE. if they could make a 850hp pump gas 500ci engine you would see them at the drag strip. and every super stock team out there would have one.
Omega

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Taylorman:
Cyclone, why not throw a blower on that thing? If thats not an option, you could borrow your boy HB's intake and carbs and give that a try. I would hate to see you start riping the crank and pistons out of a new engine. now that makes sense. can't beat forced induction......

[565edge]

Cyclone is your boat motor the 502 for your truck?If so put it back in there and build a big motor?

[Jet City]

Interesting thread, and well put Fryjet, anybody going beyond the 80 mark let alone 90 has my respect. I'm no pro engine or pump guy, but my feelings are that a simpler aproach would yeild gains, more compression (and possibly a looser bore for the new pistons, new rod bolts while your at it), dominator carb on 4500/4150 spacer, experiment with another cam profile and lots of jetting and timing experimenting. Then on to the jet and hull. Even with your existing set-up, it looks like (dyno sheet) you could fatten up the main jets for a top end gain.
I have had alot of fun squezing a few more miles an hour out of my old turd with simple mods and lots of tuning, 1 day at the lake with timing light, GPS and jet kit, the wife tans, I tune.

[HotHallet]

Time for a Blower Mike and you know it!

[cyclone]

glad to see everyone is having fun with this topic.
565-no the truck motor is still in the truck.
At this point i'm just gathering information and opinions. I've no intention of tearing into the motor until after the last couple of races at Lake Ming. I'd still like to run the river racer class there. I think that would be a prime place to tune the boat (ride plate, loader, shoe etc.) and find some more mph. But after that, i think i'll be exploring my options.
Hot Hallet-The blower is obviously an option, and a fun one at that, but would also be overkill for my boat. i only need 5mph, not 20 mph to be happy. Although, a blower would make for a killer holeshot!
Im still not a fan of nitrous either so ill keep asking questions and talk to some different engine builders to see what they have to say. Tearing into the motor over winter wouldnt be no problem if it means going faster and still keeping the boat reliable and pump gas friendly.

[PC Rat]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Snorider:
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
hey if you want to quote them use the whole quote
(700-750+ HP with HIGHER COMPRESSION and More Aggressive Camshaft) you know what higher compression means? no more pump gas. so yes 1.5hp per cube is possible just not on 91 octane. I like the fact that you are thinking though. why don't you give ole Jim a call and ask him how much compression it takes him to make that 750hp. I think you might be surprised.... :D :D
Omega But do you know what higher compression AND MORE AGRESSIVE CAMSHAFT means? (Like you said "use the whole quote")
Do you know how a camshaft effects cranking compression and what effect cranking compression has on octane requirement? How about combustion chamber design, cylinder temp, piston design, quench clearance etc.?
When these things are optimized it is possible to produce some very impressive hp numbers with pump gas. Look at some of the newer engines like the Corvette engine for example, don't they have like 10 or 10.5:1 compression with small camshafts and they run pump gas. The manufacturer sure as hell doesn't want you back with a blown up engine that has to be replaced at their expense.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

PC Rat:
OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Snorider:
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/engines_assemblies/474_cu_in.html
His site clearly says 700-750hp with a bigger cam...
hey if you want to quote them use the whole quote
(700-750+ HP with HIGHER COMPRESSION and More Aggressive Camshaft) you know what higher compression means? no more pump gas. so yes 1.5hp per cube is possible just not on 91 octane. I like the fact that you are thinking though. why don't you give ole Jim a call and ask him how much compression it takes him to make that 750hp. I think you might be surprised.... :D :D
Omega But do you know what higher compression AND MORE AGRESSIVE CAMSHAFT means? (Like you said "use the whole quote")
Do you know how a camshaft effects cranking compression and what effect cranking compression has on octane requirement? How about combustion chamber design, cylinder temp, piston design, quench clearance etc.?
When these things are optimized it is possible to produce some very impressive hp numbers with pump gas. Look at some of the newer engines like the Corvette engine for example, don't they have like 10 or 10.5:1 compression with small camshafts and they run pump gas. The manufacturer sure as hell doesn't want you back with a blown up engine that has to be replaced at their expense. yeah I think that the LS6 has aluminum heads. You should know then that aluminum disapates heat faster than iron and allows compression ratios up to 11:1 on 91 octane with the right cam. I noticed no one bothered to call Jim. I would be willing to bet that engine has no less than 12:1 in it. probably more like 12.5-13:1. I don't care how much overlap you have in a cam 12:1 will not run on pump gas. :rolleyes: oh and by the way the LS6 does not have a "small" cam in it. do you even know the differences between the LS1 and LS6. BTW GM used 10:1 in the LT1's also and guess what they have aluminum heads also. see a trend here. I guess I have been hanging out at the dragstrip and not enough time bullshitting on the water. I really think someone should call ole Jim. But I can see now no matter what I say or how many examples are posted on here the undeniable fact is some of the people on here are smarter than numerous well known, well experienced, race proven, record setting engine builders. I don't claim to be one of these guys but do associate with several well known NHRA teams and I know the smell of bullshit when I smell it.
Omega

[TRG]

HELL,SHITFIRE boys!! http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/662myboat-med.JPG ,...considering you all are throwin money around like its's goin' out of style,... i'll take all of your old shit and whip' all your asses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!J/K, cant wait to see all of your boats next weekend!! i'll be the one in the lil' red tug boat bringin up the rear!!

[TRG]

did'nt mean for that to be so big!

[bp]

Omega [/qb][/QUOTE]But do you know what higher compression AND MORE AGRESSIVE CAMSHAFT means? (Like you said "use the whole quote")
Do you know how a camshaft effects cranking compression and what effect cranking compression has on octane requirement? How about combustion chamber design, cylinder temp, piston design, quench clearance etc.?
When these things are optimized it is possible to produce some very impressive hp numbers with pump gas. Look at some of the newer engines like the Corvette engine for example, don't they have like 10 or 10.5:1 compression with small camshafts and they run pump gas. The manufacturer sure as hell doesn't want you back with a blown up engine that has to be replaced at their expense. [/QB][/QUOTE]
brian, it's impossible to reason with someone that has such a wealth of experience gained through working on and driving a 50mph bubble deck. just get back to powder coatin'...

[PC Rat]

yeah I think that the LS6 has aluminum heads. You should know then that aluminum disapates heat faster than iron and allows compression ratios up to 11:1 on 91 octane with the right cam.
Pretty much what I'm getting at. I would guess that some of these guys, that you come on here to argue with, are running aluminum heads and comp ratios around 11:1 so I guess that equals a pump gas engine.
As far as the LS6 having a small cam, it is, compared to what we're dealing with here.

[Danhercules]

Iam sooooooo sick of Omega,, you are soooo F#%in in love with HDjet's and Cyclons' boat. You can get a shit load of HP per CUI.
I know I am mixin apples and oranges but I want to shut up Omega
I had a 1.3 leter (79.33 CUI) pullen 250 hp. That is 3.15 HP per CUI. NO BULLSHIT!!!!!
Its called a Mazda Rotary. yea, I ran it on 91 octane.
Get out if your not tryin to help or learn!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry guys, just venting!!!
[ August 22, 2003, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Danhercules ]

[Bense468]

Was that a 3 rotor? 20B?

[Cs19]

BP,This is slightly off topic but what kind of gains do you think would have been seen in your motor or one of these guys motors with say 12.5:1 and some race fuel..just curious. :cool: thanks.

[victorfb]

you get em Danno...!!! :D

[FryJet]

My second post on this thread...Both of the boats everyone is talking about in this thread are probably around the MPH they will achive with the setup they have. They have both done more setup work than most of us will ever do. I think as far as the best bang for your buck for the both of you it would be nitrous. If properly set up it is not as bad as everybody thinks, it takes dial in or setup, just as a pump or bottom work to make it right. With the #'s you two are running I really think a 100 shot would put you both over the century mark. Im running a 150 shot on a hull that wont work and I am still getting 9-10 MPH and cant stay in it due to a porpoise problem, probably the hull. This is with a really soft shot, meaning I turned up the fuel enrichment to keep it a little fat because of the Hypereutectic pistons I threw in the thing, I know they arent good but so far I have 8 bottles run through it and absolutely no ill effects but I worked hard on my tune and I dont have any timing retard so I think its working well. Nitrous seems to be a myth to alot of people but when you research it and ask questions it can work very reliably, guaranteed. Your ET will go down and you will increase top end with just a small shot, which will make a engine live. In my oppinion making your own air in the form of nitrous will be the best bang for your buck and it absolutly can be done reliably. Think about it, you will be happy with it.
F.J.

[Windy]

FryJet:
I am not a cheerleader, dont know HB and Cyclone, dont have a really fast boat but this is what I think. These two guys have done one hell of a job at making their boats work, V-bottoms no less. Who cares if some big name company's did some of the work. You can dick with a setup for ever and not get it right so what the hell, take it to someone who knows about it and look what happens. Engines, pumps, bottoms, it takes alot of experience to make this shit work, TOGETHER. To see pump gas, 500 ci, 90 MPH V-bottoms is really impressive, admit it. Its not like nobody has seen them run, John (JM) has and he runs a fast boat as well as alot of other people on the board. Are they lying about GPS #'s? Are they not running pump gas? I dont think so. There are more people that say these boats run just as hard as the owners say than people that doubt it. These guys have alot of patience when it comes to all of the ribbing, and that says alot about them. They spent the money where they felt they needed to and that makes them bad guys? I dont think so. If you can afford it and it puts you where you want to be then how is that bad? These guys are doing what they want to and for that I say "NICE ****ING JOB" There are some people that make decisions and make things happen and then some that talk about it but never do anything. Well im sorry to tell all you nay sayers but these two guys made it happen and they are happy with their results, bottom line. Thats what I have to say and if you dont like I wont cry about it. Drop all the horse shit and have fun, its what boating is all about. Sorry about the long post but some of these people are starting to sound like broken records, drop it for christ sakes.
F.J. Wish I could give you 10, but I shot ya 5 for this post wink

[Floored]

Omega you talk about the LT1 being 10.0-1 which is correct but they used reverse flow cooling to draw heat from the heads to allow this as well as alum heads. The original aluminum BBC heads made less power than the cast iron heads unless the coolant passages were sodium coated to retain heat, then they worked good. Way back in 1979 I worked at a little shop called Keith Black Racing. The car I drove to work everyday was a 67 RS SS camaro with a 12.6-1 comp 396 4 spd 4.56 gears shifted at 8200 on pump gas. and now I find out it won't work. With the parts that are available now from the aftermarket if you find the correct combination almost anything is possible. If a 1200 cc kawasaki can make 180 hp with 12.0-1 comp,13000rpm redline and a 1year unlimited mileage warranty and run pump gas where is the limit. Who would have dreamed 20 yrs ago of race motors running 15-16.1 compression even on race gas. Have you ever gone through the traps at the strip in a street car at 135 mph in the passenger seat, 15in goodyears still squeeling reading the pyrometers so you could get the tune-up right? Have you ever driven a nitrous motorcycle? Some of us old timers have been there done it but just cause we were raising kids doesn't mean we didn't keep up with whats going on we just had other priorities. 800hp 502 is dooable on pump gas in my humble opinion :p

[ChetCapoli]

FryJet:
They have both done more setup work than most of us will ever do. Thats a good one fry! LMAO! They have blueprints and all they do is follow them.
CHET

[77charger]

cyclone:
glad to see everyone is having fun with this topic.
I've no intention of tearing into the motor until after the last couple of races at Lake Ming. I'd still like to run the river racer class there. I think that would be a prime place to tune the boat (ride plate, loader, shoe etc.) and find some more mph. But after that, i think i'll be exploring my options.
You know the river racer is a one time only class after the first time you have to go into a class or bracket.Should still be fun though.I think sept they ought to change the RR class to the ***boat.net(justjets showdown) :D
We will be out there with the flatbottom boat006

[77charger]

FryJet:
. I think as far as the best bang for your buck for the both of you it would be nitrous. If properly set up it is not as bad as everybody thinks, it takes dial in or setup, just as a pump or bottom work to make it right. With the #'s you two are running I really think a 100 shot would put you both over the century mark. Im running a 150 shot on a hull that wont work and I am still getting 9-10 MPH and cant stay in it due to a porpoise problem, probably the hull. This is with a really soft shot, meaning I turned up the fuel enrichment to keep it a little fat because of the Hypereutectic pistons I threw in the thing, I know they arent good but so far I have 8 bottles run through it and absolutely no ill effects but I worked hard on my tune and I dont have any timing retard so I think its working well. Nitrous seems to be a myth to alot of people but when you research it and ask questions it can work very reliably, guaranteed. Your ET will go down and you will increase top end with just a small shot, which will make a engine live. In my oppinion making your own air in the form of nitrous will be the best bang for your buck and it absolutly can be done reliably. Think about it, you will be happy with it.
F.J. I agree with this and a 100 hp shot i did this on my old jet it wasnt a race boat or a fast boat for that matter but my little bbf went from 64 mph to 71mph on the bottle ran many thru it(fun to use also).Key word is enough fuel and tuned properly.I heard many horror stories about NOS but the ones telling them have NEVER USED IT JUST STUFF THEY HEARD from people who tried to use too much on a small 4 cylinder or give a big block 400 hp.IMO 150hp and up the more attention you need to give forged pistons dedicated fuel pump,etc.

[Johnwithjm]

77charger:
cyclone:
glad to see everyone is having fun with this topic.
I've no intention of tearing into the motor until after the last couple of races at Lake Ming. I'd still like to run the river racer class there. I think that would be a prime place to tune the boat (ride plate, loader, shoe etc.) and find some more mph. But after that, i think i'll be exploring my options.
You know the river racer is a one time only class after the first time you have to go into a class or bracket.Should still be fun though.I think sept they ought to change the RR class to the ***boat.net(justjets showdown) :D
We will be out there with the flatbottom boat006 77 you gonna be out at Lost Lake on labor day with the flat?

[FryJet]

ChetCapoli:
FryJet:
They have both done more setup work than most of us will ever do. Thats a good one fry! LMAO! They have blueprints and all they do is follow them.
CHET Hmm...Chet, I will not get into a pissing match with you. Setup work, be it done by the owner OR paying someone to do it is still setup. They payed someone who knew how to do the work, has done the work before on numerous boats, and is in the business. Why is following blueprints so bad? If they work then why not follow them? I like making my own stuff work but hey, I only have so much cash flow to work with so that is what I can do. If I had the peanuts to shell out to someone who could make my boat work then I would because it gets to a point where you have to go to the people that know whats going on if you come up against a wall and I have. I have talked to people about my problem and I will probably try to do the work myself, because I have to. I am not saying it will be right but it whats in the budget. If I had a bigger budget then you bet your ass I would take it to a pro, why not? You have to pay for experience and evidently these companies have it. Why do some race boats that I see have sponsors names on them? Probably because they (the boat owner) paid (at a dicount im sure) to have work done on their boat and in return they (the company) get their names put on said boat. In return the said bussiness gets customers looking to have work done to their boats because they have seen what works and what doesnt, correct? Thats what running a business is all about, making money by way of experience, correct?. It just seem as though there are alot of sour apples running around for reasons I dont know and dont care to know. The point is that these guys have spent money and in my oppinion it was well spent and why is that so bad. Let me know.
F.J.

[FryJet]

MissHBjet:
Wish I could give you 10, but I shot ya 5 for this post wink Thanks MissHBjet, I already have a 10, she's great, but right back at ya. wink
F.J.

[Danhercules]

Bense468:
Was that a 3 rotor? 20B? nope, 13b An RX7- gsl-se.
Good guess though, glad some one knows about rotaries!!!!
[ August 22, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Danhercules ]

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Danhercules:
Iam sooooooo sick of Omega,, you are soooo F#%in in love with HDjet's and Cyclons' boat. You can get a shit load of HP per CUI.
I know I am mixin apples and oranges but I want to shut up Omega
I had a 1.3 leter (79.33 CUI) pullen 250 hp. That is 3.15 HP per CUI. NO BULLSHIT!!!!!
Its called a Mazda Rotary. yea, I ran it on 91 octane.
Get out if your not tryin to help or learn!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry guys, just venting!!! how many turbos did it have? we're talking normally aspirated engines here

[572Daytona]

Grand Prix engines are only 3 litre and put out more than 800hp normally aspirated. Of course they are also turning 20,000 rpm and who knows how high of compression to achieve that
http://www.intof1.nl/Technical/Engine/2002ferrari.jpg

[Danhercules]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Danhercules:
Iam sooooooo sick of Omega,, you are soooo F#%in in love with HDjet's and Cyclons' boat. You can get a shit load of HP per CUI.
I know I am mixin apples and oranges but I want to shut up Omega
I had a 1.3 leter (79.33 CUI) pullen 250 hp. That is 3.15 HP per CUI. NO BULLSHIT!!!!!
Its called a Mazda Rotary. yea, I ran it on 91 octane.
Get out if your not tryin to help or learn!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry guys, just venting!!! how many turbos did it have? we're talking normally aspirated engines here 450 holly, Thats it. No turbos. just one hell of a street port and and open header exahust. MSD ignition of course.

[bp]

cs19:
BP,This is slightly off topic but what kind of gains do you think would have been seen in your motor or one of these guys motors with say 12.5:1 and some race fuel..just curious. :cool: thanks. chris, first, i believe that if the compression were bumped, you'd probably get a bit more power, but at what rpm? and what other things like cam profile need to be considered? and, will that be enough to satisfy? does something else need to be sacrificed?
some background. when dave and i first started to talk about my engine several years ago, i had three goals; the first was to have something that would be competitive in the brackets with the heavy southwind td (mine is heavy, some are not). the second goal was to build the engine so it could run on 91 octane, available at most marinas. because, when i go to my favorite lake, the boat is left on anchor every night for about 3 weeks, and the only place to fuel up is the marina. i do not wish to waste my time lugging race fuel or nitrous bottles at those times. that lake is fairly remote. third (and maybe most important), this engine had to live and be reliable for a long time. i have no problem working on stuff, but for personal reasons, i needed the engine to be constructed such that it would not require significant parts replacement on a routine basis.
as far as i'm concerned, these goals were achieved, but these were MY goals, not someone else's, and they were considered with every step of the build.
as a result, i can anchor the thing for days, driving it every day only filling up at the dock. another result, we won the 10 second high points championship in 2002, and are in contention again this year. we made a few tweaks this past winter that allow the boat to be dialed in easier without jeopardizing any of the original goals. i remember talking with dave about a year ago, talking about some possible maintenance items. his response - "if we'd built an engine you needed to work on, you'd be running the 9's". ok.
now, some people continually want to go faster, and i respect those desires and the goals that support them. for me, i'm right where i want to be. which is not to say my stuff wouldn't go faster in different hull, but that requires some more thought.
in the end, i'll have this engine the rest of my life. and if i ever do wear it out, you know where it's going to get freshened :cool:

[bp]

one other thought to stir the pot.
if cyclone or hb remove all their interiors, fuel tanks, etc., they may gain a tad on top speed, but the boats would certainly be quicker.
weight affects et. leave 'em alone.

[cyclone]

i normally run my boat with a sizeable tool kit onboard (just in case!), a bunch of life vests and full tanks of fuel because i drive it so much. The one time i did run at Lost Lake i removed the seat cushions, tools and vests (except for the lifeline jacket i was wearing)and the boat felt slightly faster, but not enough of a difference to make me want to drive it like that under normal circumstances. Its no race boat so and i've put a ton of work into making the interior comfortable so i wont be changing any of it. I like my heavy, laid back, seats and cupholders. :D

[Hotcrusader76]

Ok....now that it took me a whole hour to read this thread :D ...some good info then some idiots throwing in bad info..nonetheless here's my biased opinion.
You might want to play with some carburetor changes. Most applications with those cylinder heads run Dominators as a minium, specially at those RPMs. Even so, a larger HP version carburetor would warrant you another 3-4MPH and possibly more.
Some options to consider would be trying out :D ...a three circuit 1050HP or even a 4150 series 1000HP (830 mainbody and 850 baseplate).
Once she's dialed in and you think you've hit the roof give me a call and we can make a weekend out of it.
~Ty

[Bense468]

Danhercules:
Bense468:
Was that a 3 rotor? 20B? nope, 13b An RX7- gsl-se.
Good guess though, glad some one knows about rotaries!!!! Well I am out at glamis a lot. Know a few people with 2 stage 20b turbo motors in their rails. Have worked on a few 12a's, 13b's, and 3 rotors.

[Cs19]

bp:
cs19:
BP,This is slightly off topic but what kind of gains do you think would have been seen in your motor or one of these guys motors with say 12.5:1 and some race fuel..just curious. :cool: thanks. chris, first, i believe that if the compression were bumped, you'd probably get a bit more power, but at what rpm? and what other things like cam profile need to be considered? and, will that be enough to satisfy? does something else need to be sacrificed?
some background. when dave and i first started to talk about my engine several years ago, i had three goals; the first was to have something that would be competitive in the brackets with the heavy southwind td (mine is heavy, some are not). the second goal was to build the engine so it could run on 91 octane, available at most marinas. because, when i go to my favorite lake, the boat is left on anchor every night for about 3 weeks, and the only place to fuel up is the marina. i do not wish to waste my time lugging race fuel or nitrous bottles at those times. that lake is fairly remote. third (and maybe most important), this engine had to live and be reliable for a long time. i have no problem working on stuff, but for personal reasons, i needed the engine to be constructed such that it would not require significant parts replacement on a routine basis.
as far as i'm concerned, these goals were achieved, but these were MY goals, not someone else's, and they were considered with every step of the build.
as a result, i can anchor the thing for days, driving it every day only filling up at the dock. another result, we won the 10 second high points championship in 2002, and are in contention again this year. we made a few tweaks this past winter that allow the boat to be dialed in easier without jeopardizing any of the original goals. i remember talking with dave about a year ago, talking about some possible maintenance items. his response - "if we'd built an engine you needed to work on, you'd be running the 9's". ok.
now, some people continually want to go faster, and i respect those desires and the goals that support them. for me, i'm right where i want to be. which is not to say my stuff wouldn't go faster in different hull, but that requires some more thought.
in the end, i'll have this engine the rest of my life. and if i ever do wear it out, you know where it's going to get freshened :cool: So the higher compression just isnt worth it..reason i ask is im still having second thoughts about running pump gas.
the Block goes into DNE tomorrow, i better figure it out quick!! :D

[Bense468]

Run a blown injected alcohol motor Chris. Save the money of VP at over $5 a gallon and go with alcohol at 1.60 a gallon. Put that into a blower and injector with hat. You just need twice as much but if you are bringing your own do it right. Or just go pump gas and it will be a lot eaiser.

[Cs19]

Blown injected on alcohol. Yeah thats a good way to get a feel for a new boat. :D No but i am a believer in alcohol motors as well, but thats a bit outta my leauge/budget right now. besides that i want to run a bracket and i think that would put me in BFJ. No thanks! :) I think the package we are putting togethor should be plenty for now.

[bp]

cs19:
Blown injected on alcohol. Yeah thats a good way to get a feel for a new boat. :D No but i am a believer in alcohol motors as well, but thats a bit outta my leauge/budget right now. besides that i want to run a bracket and i think that would put me in BFJ. No thanks! :) I think the package we are putting togethor should be plenty for now. i'm not quite sure what you mean by 'higher compression aint worth it'. if you're gonna build a race engine, you'll certainly want it. i'm just saying we didn't need to do that to get what we wanted.
i have to check my lash every once in awhile. after 2 years of crewing on a pgj, i don't consider that serious pm. on the other hand, someone else created an engine very much like mine, but never wanted to do that, so he's not making the same power. he could have, but he decided not to.
see ya on the rope :cool:

[wrightnow]

cs19,
I'v been running av gas for about five years without any problems, this allow me to run 13.5-1 compression with a nice gain over running pump gas. I'v got my engine over at DNE right now ans we are going to stoke it and continue to run the av. I boat pretty much at Big River and av is easy to get and only $1.99 gallon, I believe Dave said each point gives me about 25-30 hp more, so going from 10-1 to 13.5-1 adds another 85-100 more hp. Not a bad trade..
Mark

[Cs19]

My goals for this engine are somewhat similar to yours BP. Thats why i am saying that the race gas deal just may not be worth it for my situation, I should have stated that earlier. I guess what i was looking for were some NUMBERS (where is LV?) to crunch to compare a race fuel/12.5:1 or so motor vs. a pump gas deal like yours.I just wanted to think about some different options until i saw dave again. :) Thanks.
Wrightnow, so are you guys doing a complete rebuild on your motor to run on avgas only? Thanks for the compression numbers/h.p. gains..100 h.p. definatly is a nice gain :D

[77charger]

Johnwithjm:
77charger:
cyclone:
glad to see everyone is having fun with this topic.
I've no intention of tearing into the motor until after the last couple of races at Lake Ming. I'd still like to run the river racer class there. I think that would be a prime place to tune the boat (ride plate, loader, shoe etc.) and find some more mph. But after that, i think i'll be exploring my options.
You know the river racer is a one time only class after the first time you have to go into a class or bracket.Should still be fun though.I think sept they ought to change the RR class to the ***boat.net(justjets showdown) :D
We will be out there with the flatbottom boat006 77 you gonna be out at Lost Lake on labor day with the flat? No john not this time going there is still minor things to ne done and we really dont want to put any more use on the motor and valve springs than needed.Will be out at the ihba race 9-6 though.

[MikeC]

Hey WrightNow, Is the river having a fuel shortage? I am hopeing to be stopping by to say high next Saturday, If I get my $hit together that is.
Also, will that AV fuel make my rod go faster? Does it work with NOS? I'll need every last pony out of my little 2 bolt I can make.... Cyclone, I hope you have plenty of gas in Roger, and bring extra tools! Heavy ones!
Thanks,

[wrightnow]

cs19:
My goals for this engine are somewhat similar to yours BP. Thats why i am saying that the race gas deal just may not be worth it for my situation, I should have stated that earlier. I guess what i was looking for were some NUMBERS (where is LV?) to crunch to compare a race fuel/12.5:1 or so motor vs. a pump gas deal like yours.I just wanted to think about some different options until i saw dave again. :) Thanks.
Wrightnow, so are you guys doing a complete rebuild on your motor to run on avgas only? Thanks for the compression numbers/h.p. gains..100 h.p. definatly is a nice gain :D cs19, My last motor only ran only on av gas being it was 13.5-1 compression, cheap hp. But I blew a head gasket after 5 years of trouble free running and it burnt away part of the head between number 5 and 7 cyl. So for me summer is over labor day weekend anyway (soccer dad/coach) so it was time to re-vamp the engine. We are going to stroke it, full roller 40 over 13.5-1 av gas again and a few other goodies (no nos) hoping for somewere around 800hp (bring it on blowen and omega..lol). Hoping to be done sometime around dec. Should be fun....

[wrightnow]

MikeC:
Hey WrightNow, Is the river having a fuel shortage? I am hopeing to be stopping by to say high next Saturday, If I get my $hit together that is.
Also, will that AV fuel make my rod go faster? Does it work with NOS? I'll need every last pony out of my little 2 bolt I can make.... Cyclone, I hope you have plenty of gas in Roger, and bring extra tools! Heavy ones!
Thanks, MikeC I have no idea if there is a gas shortage ar the rive, but av gas will still be plenty. I think it would be great if you came by this weekend it's been awhile. As for av making your rod faster, dont think so and you would need to re-jet if you run it differant flow rate.
See you this weekend.....let the party begin
Mark

[Cs19]

Wrightnow, thats going to be a sweet motor, i talked to Dave about it briefly earlier today. Sounds like that gullwing is going to haul ass. :D Hope to meet you guys over labor day weekend, i will be at lost lake saturday night watching the races.....unless that hurricane develops off baja ill be in mex for the weekend hunting down some waves and coronas. :D

[Cs19]

wrightnow, what are you running for heads, tunnel ram and carbs? just curious.

[Floored]

no gas problems around Bullhead city. around $2.10 for prem

[Bense468]

CS I will be up at LL this Sat night. We will have to meet up. The party will be at big river after that, just up the river.

[wrightnow]

cs19:
wrightnow, what are you running for heads, tunnel ram and carbs? just curious. Thanks cs19, it should push the CP alone just fine. I'm running a pair of GM d port alum. heads that seem to work ok. I know there's more hp to gain by switching, but for the cost I'm staying with these. The tunnel ram is an edelbrook (just like HBjet's), but dave is going to make another top for it so we dont have to use the adapters edelbrook uses to turn the carbs sideways. On top a pair 6109 750's that dave went though last summer. I hear the 4150's are better, but these run just great and I'm not sure how much of a gain would be seen by switch to them.
So what is you build going to look like?
Mark

[kojac]

cs19,
I have a 509 chevy motor that I had built two years ago 13.2 compression, Aluminum chevy heads, full custom comp roller cam,forged piston, 4" steel crank,6.135" good rods, dart manifold,with singel dominator carb, Ran it on a sterling tunnel about six times with a "B" stainless impellar cut by Don Bowers at 6400rpm's at 106 miles an hour. Tried the nitrous once ran 6800rpm's at 117 mph. Never dynoed the motor so I don't know what the HP numbers are. Liked the 6800rpm's so much I had a 572 built to run 7200 rpm's on the tunnel without the nitrous. Probably will put the juice on the 572 anyway.
The 509 is in my boathouse and needs a home.$7800.00
Kojac

[kojac]

cs19
Heads were fully ported by Ladd's A local head guru. Flow 350 cfms.
Kojac