460 oil with water

[Ray Hamel]

Need some input before I start tearing this thing apart. 18' 1976 Nordic 460 Ford with Dominator pump . This engine has always(and still does) run great but has developed water in the oil. My original assumption was a blown head gasket?? It has been suggested that the leak could also be from the timing cover gasket or header gaskets?????? When I winterized it last fall some of the RV antifreeze was leaking into the hull, but I couldn't see from where. I have owned this boat for six years but have never had to work on it before so it is like I am new to the sport. Any suggestions would be appriciated before I start tearing apart the difficult stuff.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

could you tell the general vacinity of where it was coming from? ie front of motor, side, back, etc.

[Hustler]

I do know that those timing have a problem with corrosion but you have to take them apart to find out. I would check that out first,It's easier than pulling the motor or heads.

[jdog]

Ray, My name is Jay Hamel and I live in Ca. I doubt if were related though. I have an 18' Weiman/Rogers with a 455 Olds. I had water get into the oil via the water pump gasket, front of motor. After that was fixed, I had water in oil from running too cold. Gate valve fixed that problem. It has been running good for two seasons now. If the above isn't your problem, could be cracked block, cracked head, blown head gaskets, or the other problems you mentioned.
Start out slow and try to trace where your anti freeze is leaking from before tearing apart motor. Good luck. Jay

[jdog]

I'm sorry I'm no mechanic I meant to say timing cover gasket. Jay

[058]

Check the timing cover for pinholes, these are made of aluminum and corrode very easily in raw water. Head gaskets can be another source of water in the oil if they have been on for a long period of time, they rust out around the steel re-enforcements, another problem with raw water. And if there is water leaking externally check the freeze plugs, from the factory they are steel and will rust out, change them to brass plugs.

[spectras only]

Ray, have the manifolds pressure tested .If there's a hairline crack in the inside wall, you can't tell without pressure testing.The gaskets between the manifolds and risers can give up over time also,leading water into the rear cylinders via exhaust valves.A teaspoon portion wil make your oil look like cafe latte eek! .The timing cover gaskets can be a problem as others mentioned .The intake on 460's have a waterpassage on the front only and it requires some rtv silicon applied around the waterpassage only.

[Ray Hamel]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
could you tell the general vacinity of where it was coming from? ie front of motor, side, back, etc. No. After I pull out the interior, I will refill the block with the antifreeze and get a closer look. Thank's for the input.

[Ray Hamel]

Hustler:
I do know that those timing have a problem with corrosion but you have to take them apart to find out. I would check that out first,It's easier than pulling the motor or heads. Thank's for the verification on that information. Looks like a good place to start after I pull this B/Block.

[Ray Hamel]

058:
Check the timing cover for pinholes, these are made of aluminum and corrode very easily in raw water. Head gaskets can be another source of water in the oil if they have been on for a long period of time, they rust out around the steel re-enforcements, another problem with raw water. And if there is water leaking externally check the freeze plugs, from the factory they are steel and will rust out, change them to brass plugs. Thank's for the info:
It looks like I will start with the timing cover and move into the harder stuff. This engine was rebuilt by the previous owner so I don't know if the freeze plugs are steel or brass?? That sounds like a good move to make. I assume the brass will stay in under full crank?

[Ray Hamel]

spectras only:
Ray, have the manifolds pressure tested .If there's a hairline crack in the inside wall, you can't tell without pressure testing.The gaskets between the manifolds and risers can give up over time also,leading water into the rear cylinders via exhaust valves.A teaspoon portion wil make your oil look like cafe latte eek! .The timing cover gaskets can be a problem as others mentioned .The intake on 460's have a waterpassage on the front only and it requires some rtv silicon applied around the waterpassage only. "CAFE LATTE" is exactly what the oil looks like. When I discovered it, I drained and refill the oil and filter. Ran it on the trailer and did the oil trick again. Dropped it in the lake and ran about 10 miles at 3/4 throttle. And cafe latte, again. So I did the oil trick again and put it away for the winter.
The manifolds and original 1976 cast aluminum logs. After that many years they may be the problem!!! I didn't realize water could get into the oil from there. Thank's for that info.

[Ray Hamel]

jdog:
Ray, My name is Jay Hamel and I live in Ca. I doubt if were related though. I have an 18' Weiman/Rogers with a 455 Olds. I had water get into the oil via the water pump gasket, front of motor. After that was fixed, I had water in oil from running too cold. Gate valve fixed that problem. It has been running good for two seasons now. If the above isn't your problem, could be cracked block, cracked head, blown head gaskets, or the other problems you mentioned.
Start out slow and try to trace where your anti freeze is leaking from before tearing apart motor. Good luck. Jay Thank's for the feedback, Jay
From all the great info. everyone has given me, I think my plan will be pull the whole engine out and put on a stand where I can get a better look at it. It has been running great for the last 6 years and probably needs some TLC and updating in several areas. Besides, I am getting too old to lay in the bottom of the hull. Then I would need the "cherry picker" just to get me out of the darn thing.

[OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET]

Ray,
a quick compression check or leak down test should tell you if you have a blown head gasket or one that is bypassing. personally I would avoid pulling the engine if you don't have to. If it runs good don't mess with it has been my experience and pulling the engine is easy but getting it back in right and lined up so forth so on is harder than it may seem. I would definitely check the exhaust too. One thing you could try is running the exhaust dry. just run water from pump into front of engine and out the back of the boat and see if it still happens. the timing cover would be next after that. I would start out simple. do a compression test first then dry exhaust and work your way up. The water in the hull could be a freeze plug popped which is no big deal but won't lead to water in the oil. However if it did pop out I would be leary of whether or not it may have cracked the block which can lead to water in the oil. Like I said though start simple and work your way from there. No need to make a mountain out of what may be an ant hill.
Omega

[spectras only]

I would be cautious running the aluminum logs dry for a prolonged time because the expansion by the heat would sink the bolt heads into it or crack the manifold at the bolt heads eek! .If you must run the exh manifolds dry [ you only need a few minutes to see if water goes in the engine wink ]loosen the bolts up a bit .I would rather hear a bit of exhaust leak than start to weld cracks wink
[ June 12, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[wet77]

I also have a 460 in my jet and had the water in the oil problem, turned out the heads were warped and after they were cut down and new gaskets no trouble since.
Just my 2cents!!

[Hollis]

Ray.. I too had water in the oil of my 460,changed it and left it over the winter with out draining the block. Huge Mistake ! The clean out plugs in the block poped out from the ice and I am now having the engine rebuilt or replaced...Good luck.

[Napanutt]

I sucked in a crankcase full of water in my 460,definitely a corroded timing cover,thought massive amounts of gasket sealer would work.Hellno! Brand new one completely fixed the problem!

[Tahiti Tiger Mark]

I have a really weird water in oil issue if it is indeed one at all. It might be condensation. I have a 455 olds with the big ugly oil fill riser thing. This is where the white oil/water sludge mix is visible, only around the top 4 inches. The cap is new and seals tight, water is not going in here. It is however the highest crank case point. I pulled the valve covers, clean oil absolutely no sign of water here. The oil in the pan is totally clear, with the motor running so the oil is good and mixed. I am thinking this is condensation and nothing to worry about, but I want to be sure, this is a new rebuild on the motor and don't need my crank messed up or anything else for that matter. Any ideas?

[spectras only]

TTM, there isn't anything wrong with your engine. If you have a valve on your water supply hose from the bowl ,start turning it in 1/4 at a time until the condensation disappear.Your engine just running a bit too cold that's it.

[Tahiti Tiger Mark]

This is great news~! phew! Thanks, my engine runs right around 160 degrees. I have the thermostat kit from CP. I will try out your suggestion.

[Rexone]

Tahiti Tiger Mark:
This is great news~! phew! Thanks, my engine runs right around 160 degrees. I have the thermostat kit from CP. I will try out your suggestion. Your engine is running the correct temp. Slight condensation like you describe is normal and quite common. I'd change nothing. I'm very familiar with that thermo (CP uses ours). You have nothing to worry about from what you've said. :)

[jboehm]

i have water in my oil from a different problem, my boat was left uncovered in a rainstorm. i use an electric pump to pull the oil out of the pan. it seems i always have a little water left at the bottom of the pan. anything i can do about this? any type of oil additive that can dissolve the water. or will it evaporate from running the motor?
[ June 15, 2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: jboehm ]

[Snowboat]

Suck the oil with a pump. Then pull the plug and slope the boat so it will drain into some rags or a plastic bag.

[Ray Hamel]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Ray,
a quick compression check or leak down test should tell you if you have a blown head gasket or one that is bypassing. personally I would avoid pulling the engine if you don't have to. If it runs good don't mess with it has been my experience and pulling the engine is easy but getting it back in right and lined up so forth so on is harder than it may seem. I would definitely check the exhaust too. One thing you could try is running the exhaust dry. just run water from pump into front of engine and out the back of the boat and see if it still happens. the timing cover would be next after that. I would start out simple. do a compression test first then dry exhaust and work your way up. The water in the hull could be a freeze plug popped which is no big deal but won't lead to water in the oil. However if it did pop out I would be leary of whether or not it may have cracked the block which can lead to water in the oil. Like I said though start simple and work your way from there. No need to make a mountain out of what may be an ant hill.
Omega

[Ray Hamel]

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Ray,
a quick compression check or leak down test should tell you if you have a blown head gasket or one that is bypassing. personally I would avoid pulling the engine if you don't have to. If it runs good don't mess with it has been my experience and pulling the engine is easy but getting it back in right and lined up so forth so on is harder than it may seem. I would definitely check the exhaust too. One thing you could try is running the exhaust dry. just run water from pump into front of engine and out the back of the boat and see if it still happens. the timing cover would be next after that. I would start out simple. do a compression test first then dry exhaust and work your way up. The water in the hull could be a freeze plug popped which is no big deal but won't lead to water in the oil. However if it did pop out I would be leary of whether or not it may have cracked the block which can lead to water in the oil. Like I said though start simple and work your way from there. No need to make a mountain out of what may be an ant hill.
Omega Thank's for the input. Had some things happen the last few days so this project is on HOLD for a while. Will get to this site when I get started.

[Rampager]

Hey all, I am new to the board but have had my jetboat for years. I run a Glen-L rampage hull with a 460 12JG/Jetovator and I am a rare jetboat guy from the great white north(Toronto)
I recently had a piston break and had to do a teardown. My engine guy who doesn't know tons about Fords(but does have a sharp eye) noticed the timing cover didn't look right to him. In fact it had corrodded through in an area that I am sure others have refered too already. There is a pocket that is not supposed to be full of water but if it corrodes through it will be, this will allow water to enter the engine through the timing chain area. I had another cover which had the fuel pump boss broken and I looked at this one for comparison. It wasn't all the way through but the casting was VERY thin in this area(it was never in a boat)
I simply sandblasted this cavity, dropped in a layer of carbon fibre cloth and filled it with epoxy. I don't expect any problems with it now
:D
If your 460 is apart or leaking water somewhere I would definatly check this area. You'll know where it is the second you pop off the cover. Its right beside the right hand block passage if I recall.
Cheers

[Squirtcha?]

Yupper, same deal here Rampage. When I pulled my motor last year for the rebuild, I found that my timing cover had worn through as well. Picked up a new one for $75.00 and put it on. The motor that was pulled was more than likely the original as the crank had never been turned. If this was the case, it lasted quite a number of years before wearing through. I'd definitely check it if you're having problems.

[srshll]

Two things it could definately be. Timing cover or the intake gaskets. I am a ford guy and I run 460 in my boat. You stated that the motor runs fine but you have water. If it were the head gaskets leaking, in most cases you would notice a performance loss. If it were the exhaust gaskets all that would do is leak exhaust gases. If your water jackets in your manifolds were cracked you would know it because water would get into your combustion chamber from coming through your exhaust valve, and it would run like shit. It would also ping like crazy. Trust me I had the problem and it hydrauliced the cylinder and bent a valve. If water was getting in that way you would know it. Your spark plugs will look like brand new because the water will steam clean them. So pull your timing cover and look for defects. Also look at the seal that seals the front cover or water pump to the timing chain cover. Another place to look is the timing chain cover to the block gasket. Also the timing chain cover gets pin holes in them. Look for holes and small cracks. If you don't find the problem their, it will most likely be in your intake gaskets.
Good Luck!!!
Kevin
P.S. Let me know how it goes.

[lakesmodified]

Ray Hamel:
Need some input before I start tearing this thing apart. 18' 1976 Nordic 460 Ford with Dominator pump . This engine has always(and still does) run great but has developed water in the oil. My original assumption was a blown head gasket?? It has been suggested that the leak could also be from the timing cover gasket or header gaskets?????? When I winterized it last fall some of the RV antifreeze was leaking into the hull, but I couldn't see from where. I have owned this boat for six years but have never had to work on it before so it is like I am new to the sport. Any suggestions would be appriciated before I start tearing apart the difficult stuff. I had the same problem on my blown 460 Ford... Did a complete tear down and rebuild, but the actual leak was the front timing cover. You might not be able to actually see a hole in the cover, but when the block is presurized by the jet pump, water will find it's way through the front of that cover. Trust me, replace the cover with a new aftermarket one(No USED covers)

[Ray Hamel]

Ok, so it has been a lousy summer for the play toys. Finally decided to tear this thing down and replace all the gaskets and clean all the innards of the old oil and water.
Here is whatI have found (so far):
1. Front "timing chain" cover - loose and broken bolts that the prev. owner left as is. I replaced it with a new part. 2. Water pump delete cover - badly coroded. I re-milled the surface. 3. Intake manifold - Didn't seem to be torqued properly and may have been leaking at the water jacket area. It had a full valey pan with a standard automotive gasdet at the head and The front and rear neoprene gaskets were used so the intake may not have been locating properly on the heads. I will be using Mister Gasket Ultra-Seal intake gaskets with no valley pan and silicone at the front and rear. 4. Three freeze plugs had rusted through (explains antifreeze in the bottom of the hull) so I replaced them with brass ones. 5. The pistons and plugs had light carbon build up so I don't think water was coming through a cracked head or "wet aluminum Logs". 6. The head gaskets were std. FoMoCo issue - I ordered Marine gaskets which looked like they might have better sealing at the warter ports 7. I have also purchased a pressure control valve from Rex Marine to try and reduce the water pressure in the block.
Does this sound like a reasonable plan?????? or not????
I want to thank everyone for their help. However, by the time I get all this back to gether, I may not get to run it until next spring.
ONE MORE QUESTION: Has anyone removed the valley pan from under the intake?? What problems can I expedt from this decision?

[LakesOnly]

Ray Hamel:
...460 Ford...This engine has always run great...for six years...but has developed water in the oil....winterized it last fall some of the RV antifreeze was leaking into the hull,. Twenty bucks says it's the front cover or a freeze plug. Period.
LO

[LakesOnly]

Ray Hamel:
ONE MORE QUESTION: Has anyone removed the valley pan from under the intake?? What problems can I expedt from this decision? Ford 429/460's don't have this....
LO

[Squirtcha?]

Actually mine had a valley pan in it when I bought it. When I made the switch from the Edelbrock Torker over to my Weiand Stealth and needed a gasket set, every parts store in town was trying to sell me the gasket set with the valley pan setup (that's what their computers showed as the replacement). Needless to say, I kept looking and eventually found the Felpro set I needed.
[ August 22, 2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[roostwear]

The early automotive 385s had valley pans. Truck and marine 460s had conventional gaskets. When getting intake gaskets from the highly knowledgable staff at Pep Boys or Kragen, tell them it's for a 72 truck. (That'll keep them from straining their brains)

[Squirtcha?]

Yeah, that's where I probably went wrong. I kept telling em it was a 1976. To be honest, I'm not sure where the motor came from........if it was the original in the boat, had been changed at some point in time or what. Could even be that someone had changed the intake previously and just used the valley pan type gasket. Who knows?
With any luck at all.............it'll be a few years before I'll need to buy another gasket set for it!
[ August 22, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[Jet City]

It sounds like you have a good plan there. I also had part stores trying to tell me I needed a turkey tray with the intake kit, the Mr. Gasket ultra intake kit is the best way to go IMO (w/o the turkey tray). Just run a light bead of silicone around the water ports. I also have had no problems using the rubber end peices that come with the gasket kit, just make sure the surfaces are clean and dry, then a dab of silicone in the corners where the rubber meets the gaskets, you might also want to block off the heat riser ports while your at it, it will burn through the gasket in short order, a piece of .01-.015 shim stock cut to size will work fine (this goes between the head and gasket). I use clear silicone, works fine and doesn't look like crap when done.

[Ray Hamel]

Hey Rebel,
I like that idea! I didn't realize that exaust port was for the deleted heat riser. Thought it was to balance exaust impusle (or some crazy engineering thing). I was afraid that eliminating the "turkey pan" would cause increased oil temperatures!!!! That shim trick will ease my feeble brain. Thanks for the tip.

[KONAKID]

Hey all, I am new to the board but have had my jetboat for years. I run a Glen-L rampage hull with a 460 12JG/Jetovator and I am a rare jetboat guy from the great white north(Toronto)
I recently had a piston break and had to do a teardown. My engine guy who doesn't know tons about Fords(but does have a sharp eye) noticed the timing cover didn't look right to him. In fact it had corrodded through in an area that I am sure others have refered too already. There is a pocket that is not supposed to be full of water but if it corrodes through it will be, this will allow water to enter the engine through the timing chain area. I had another cover which had the fuel pump boss broken and I looked at this one for comparison. It wasn't all the way through but the casting was VERY thin in this area(it was never in a boat)
I simply sandblasted this cavity, dropped in a layer of carbon fibre cloth and filled it with epoxy. I don't expect any problems with it now
:D
If your 460 is apart or leaking water somewhere I would definatly check this area. You'll know where it is the second you pop off the cover. Its right beside the right hand block passage if I recall.
Cheers
Hey does anybody have a pic of where the corrosion takes place?? im getting a good amount of water in the engine.
head gaskets fine, but i did have some water in the pocket that shouldnt have water in it(timing cover) but i dont see any hole or major corrosion.

[KONAKID]

I didnt realize new covers were so cheap,, im just going buy a new one..
would like a pic of were they leak at if anybody has one.