Berkley Thrust Bearing

[spectratoad]

Well just returned from Shasta for the week and its time to change the thrust bearing. I am mechanical and can work on most anything but have never worked on a jet drive. It looks easy but that usually means it's a pain. Is there a process to this. I have the parts diagram in front of me but it doesn't tell about install or removal.
Next ? It is a 12JC pump, would like to upgrade but is this a bolt in install and if so does anyone have a newere model pump for sale? Thanks for all your help. Todd

[LVjetboy]

Since no responses yet, I'll pitch in. On the thrust bearing:
Need to remove the nozzle and bowl, impeller, then suction piece w/shaft. Then bearing cap and finally shaft. An arbor press is used to press the bearing off the shaft and to install the new one.
I recommend buying the Seloc manual for step by step instructions.
One important thing. The Seloc manual is unclear about which way the thrust bearing notch must be oriented. Some reference contradict others. Normally notch will be toward engine, but not always, depending on bearing manufacturer. So make sure you get this right or risk early bearing failure. I have pictures of the correct installation if you like.
BTW, I've never actually replaced a thrust bearing so this is all BRF info...use at your own risk http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
jer

[spectratoad]

Thanks JER, I am going to start diggin in to that here later this week. I need to get it done before Tower Park and I also want to get down to Mead this summer some time. I appreciate the info though. Todd

[SoCalPower]

Don't use the max type bearing. It's the one with the notch. Use a conrad still bearing, no notch. If someone tells you that you need the max type, ask him/her why. Max type bearings are for applications where thrust is always in the same direction.........not the case with marine jet drive apps. Thrust direction is forward under accel and aft under decel.
We've been through the "notch issue" before on a few threads.
LVjetboy is on the money for steps to get the bearing off. Best method for install is induction heater with temp control. Arbor press works fine but be sure and support bearing on inner ring when installing. If you support the bearing on the outer, you will damage the bearing when installing.
Good Luck!!
db

[jweeks123]

why do all the jet companies install max load type 3307s as oem? and the same in their overhaul kits?
jw

[SB]

I think you can get instructions from cpperformance.com

[SoCalPower]

Originally posted by jweeks123:
why do all the jet companies install max load type 3307s as oem? and the same in their overhaul kits?
jw
That's a great question JW!! Maybe Dave from Agressor can provide some insight, he seems to jump in these boards now and then. Or any other OEM.
Dave??......anybody???

[AGGRESSOR JETS]

SoCalPower:
jweeks123
why do all the jet companies install max load type 3307s as oem? and the same in their overhaul kits?
jwThat's a great question JW!! Maybe Dave from Agressor can provide some insight, he seems to jump in these boards now and then. Or any other OEM.
Dave??......anybody???I have had 5 bearing company's in regarding this subject. The 3307 Bearing is a sound bearing- forward thrust is not a big problem- History has proven that!
We did not lead on this subject-we followed, But in cost vs run time I do not disagree. We picked our bearing company as there unit had a little higher frontal/rear load capacity vs any other we found.
I am now seeing a H/D bearing being put in which I or our bearing mfg. cannot understand why! The bearing we use is 11 Balls x 2 rows, clearance ground for higher RPMs. Out of 3000 plus bearings per year, we see 5 to 7 failure's and that number fits anyones book. We bought 1,000 of the China-Aerospace Bearings- We sent out to a local firm and had a series of tests done on them, Price was great test was great, Field failure sucked. We scrapped 955 bearings "in the trash" Replaced all the bearings sent to dealers, returned to our source and will not try that game again.
We run this bearing in Blown Fuel, Ski Racers which are enduro's, White water, and a very full amount of high performance units across the country. on top of that our rebuild kits contain them and have for 5 years. We have a very, very, low warrenty problem on a high usage item. I do not see any problem with the 3307 bearing as has, and is being used in Jets. No bearing fits all demands- You have a High RPM application on long run times, small amount of frontal/rear load time (only when loading the impeller due you get that type of load) Shut down has small load effect.
and cost with Jetters is a "MAJOR PROBLEM" $49.00 List for a clearanced double row bearing is not bad. Dave
[ July 18, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: AGGRESSOR JETS ]

[checkmate76]

If the bearing is only 49.00, then why are the bearing "kits" so expensive?
Mine is making a noise "sometimes" so I figured I would replace the thrust bearing, but do I need all that other stuff in the kit.
when u-joints go bad do they make noise also?
just wondering where th problem lies
[ July 18, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: checkmate76 ]

[spectratoad]

Check, that's a good question. I called CP and asked them about the thrust bearing and they said that they go in through the jet instead of pulling the motor so if I did it that way I would also need the gasket kit which cost $160. THey may be talking straight though. It seems you would have to the impeller off the shaft to get the thrust bearing so I don't know.

[SoCalPower]

I have had 5 bearing company's in regarding this subject. The 3307 Bearing is a sound bearing- forward thrust is not a big problem- History has proven that! -Agressor
Dave,
Is forward thrust a problem if fill slot is installed in wrong direction? i.e. rolling elements of loaded row traversing fill slot.
Also, what is the H/D type you referred to? Is it a QJ type?
db
[ July 18, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: SoCalPower ]

[LVjetboy]

SoCal,
Don't mean to jump in for Aggressor Dave on your question...or bypass any pending insight from reputable OEMs, but from what I remember, a typical notched thrust bearing is rated at, uhm, something like three times the force in one axial direction as the other. In the notch fill direction, the bearings can run up on the notched part of the race and cause early wear and failure.
This is why it's important to install the thrust bearing in the correct notch direction...matching the strongest axial force. Yes, a jet drive sees axial force in both directions, but the dominating force is in the forward direction...if you're headed the right direction?
Since your jet drive typically sees forward thrust WAY excess of unloaded (deceleration) thrust, and for a much longer time, it only makes sense to use this type of bearing design...thus jet pump manufacturers use them? But I don't know for sure.
Since most bearing manufacturers use an outward convergent thrust bearing design as opposed to inward convergent, the notch goes towards engine. Here's a picture of the outward convergent design:
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/OutwardConv.gif
But not all. Unfortunately, the Seloc manual shows installation of both types, confusing the issue, yet not mentioning the difference.
That's why I took the time to post.
So yes, the thrust bearing notch direction is important. But as most know here, I'm only a card-carrying BRF, so take my post for what it's worth. Less than 1 cent after stock devaluation I'm sure. :)
jer
[ July 19, 2002, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[spectratoad]

JER, Where do you get the Seloc Manual that you first told me about?

[SoCalPower]

LVjetboy:
SoCal,
Don't mean to jump in for Aggressor Dave on your question...or bypass any pending insight from reputable OEMs, but from what I remember, a typical notched thrust bearing is rated at, uhm, something like three times the force in one axial direction as the other. In the notch fill direction, the bearings can run up on the notched part of the race and cause early wear and failure.
This is why it's important to install the thrust bearing in the correct notch direction...matching the strongest axial force. Yes, a jet drive sees axial force in both directions, but the dominating force is in the forward direction...if you're headed the right direction?
Since your jet drive typically sees forward thrust WAY excess of unloaded (deceleration) thrust, and for a much longer time, it only makes sense to use this type of bearing design...thus jet pump manufacturers use them? But I don't know for sure.
Since most bearing manufacturers use an outward convergent thrust bearing design as opposed to inward convergent, the notch goes towards engine. Here's a picture of the outward convergent design:
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/OutwardConv.gif
But not all. Unfortunately, the Seloc manual shows installation of both types, confusing the issue, yet not mentioning the difference.
That's why I took the time to post.
So yes, the thrust bearing notch direction is important. But as most know here, I'm only a card-carrying BRF, so take my post for what it's worth. Less than 1 cent after stock devaluation I'm sure. :)
jerJer,
Good info....... But, the key is that thrust loads in the direction of the filling slot should not exceed a thrust to radial load ratio of Fa/Fr = 0.3.
Since the radial load (Fr) relative to the thrust (Fa) in this application is minimal, it's very easy to exceed the 0.3 limit.
So, to be on the safe side, I don't use max-type bearings. Below are the dynamic load ratings for the two types of bearings.
Max-type (w/ filling slot) 11,800 lbs.
Conrad (w/o filling slot) 11,100 lbs.
As you can see, not enough difference to warrant their use considering the risk of reduced bearing life. Also, max-types are only needed to accomodate excessive RADIAL loads.
Regarding speed rating: Normal axial clearance
5600 RPM Grease..........7500 RPM Oil.....for both types of bearings
I to am a card carrying BRF and like to get the facts to the masses. I respect the OEMs and what they are doing to provide the best value. Its good to hear that Agressor has scrapped the off-shore, low quality bearings. Here are some good brands to go with......SKF, NTN, FAG, Koyo, Fafnir, MRC
Whether it's bearings, cables or whatever.....always pay the few extra bucks for quality, it will cost you more in the long run if you don't.
Spectratoad,
Seloc manuals are available on boatpart.com. I don't think they are listed on the site, but email or call Rachel for price and delivery.
db
[ July 22, 2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: SoCalPower ]

[jweeks123]

Good info....... But, the key is that thrust loads in the direction of the filling slot should not exceed a thrust to radial load ratio of Fa/Fr = 0.3.
Since the radial load (Fr) relative to the thrust (Fa) in this application is minimal, it's very easy to exceed the 0.3 limit.
So, to be on the safe side, I don't use max-type bearings. Below are the dynamic load ratings for the two types of bearings.
Max-type (w/ filling slot) 11,800 lbs.
Conrad (w/o filling slot) 11,100 lbs.
As you can see, not enough difference to warrant their use considering the risk of reduced bearing life. Also, max-types are only needed to accomodate excessive RADIAL loads.
Regarding speed rating: Normal (C3) axial clearance
5600 RPM Grease..........7500 RPM Oil.....for both types of bearings
I always find technical info to be interesting, but in order to have value the tech info needs to have references. what is your background, db? are you citing the above specs from a reference book, or a class you took, or your experience on the job, or?
I to am a card carrying BRF and like to get the facts to the masses. I respect the OEMs and what they are doing to provide the best value. Its good to hear that Agressor has scrapped the off-shore, low quality bearings. Here are some good brands to go with......SKF, NTN, FAG, Koyo, Fafnir, MRC
from what I've seen Aggressor sells the low cost ZKL bearing made in the eastern european hotbed of maufacturing technology - Czechoslovakia. your list seems like better choices
Whether it's bearings, cables or whatever.....always pay the few extra bucks for quality, it will cost you more in the long run if you don't.
db
excellent advice, db, but forum-ites too often seem to be only interested in the cheapest stuf they can find.
jw
ok, I give up, what's a BRF?

[LVjetboy]

BRF = Bench Racing Fag. Someone who thinks they know something, but unlike the "real" wrench-turning-knuckle-scraping-beer-drinking-school-of-hard-knock "racer" finds in the end, they don't know sh*t.
A club of which I'm a card-carrying member. Of which SuperDave is the unchallenged head until he steps down. Not that I loath beer you know, just prefer Vodka.
So read on with caution :)
SoCalPower,
Not sure of the OEM's (or the pump design engineers) choice of max capacity, but one thing for sure, once specified by OEM, most likely replaced with OEM...right or wrong.
So how often do we see rear axial? I'm thinking, at worst, engine shutdown full speed? Possibly some during high speed reload as in wave jumping?
So, say you shut the engine off at full speed and see intake pressure go from zero to a 50 psi spike. Just for example...someone here may have better numbers for intake pressure. With an A impeller intake radius of about 3.6" and subtracting shaft area, gives a spike of less than 2000 lbs.
If max capacity bearings typically have 20% thrust capacity (in notch direction) of a conrad...a load rating of 11,800 lbs give's 2,360 lbs in the notch direction. Not much margin, but w/engine shutdown, short lived. And nearly static. And not happening on a regular basis? At least I hope not :)
But I've seen 30% as typical for double row maximum in the notch direction compared to opposing, depending on contact angle (ref. Machine Design, 1970 Bearing Reference Issue, The Penton Publishing Co., Cleveland, Ohio., how's that jweeks?)
The Fa/Fr ratio is used to calculate equivalent load, estimating bearing life with both axial and radial forces, based on the bearing manuf's DYNAMIC load rating, and 10% failure over a million revolutions. Not sure if or how this applies to a sudden shut-down scenario where the load is nearly static and cycles are next to nothing. But then who is? If anyone knows better have at it.
As for the Fa/Fr ratio never to exceed 0.3, I venture we do this in jets on a REGULAR basis. With relatively few bearing falures. And many of these for different reasons? I've seen limits of Fa/Fr max = 0.25 for single row radial contact max capacity, but not for double row max angular contact. Most double row max are preloaded?
All that said, conrads may be the best choice. But if you do replace with OEM 3300's, get the notch in the right direction? Just a thought.
Spectra, got Seloc from Amazon.com, used $28.40.
jer
[ July 21, 2002, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[jweeks123]

thank you LV for an informative post. you may lose your BRF card if you keep using references. ;-)
has anyone asked a jet service guy what they see for failures?
jw

[HOSS]

LV, who made Dave in charge? I`ve been gone way to long. eek!

[spectras only]

For starters ,we at californiamarine never used the 2 X 7 double row bearings ,especially the junk ones with plastic cages , and if my memory recalls we had one [ -1- ] bearing failure in the past 20 odd years.Now ,with the loading slot issue ,we also install the slot towards the back of the boat [ sorry Jer wink ]lining up with the grease zerk hole. There is no sharp edge in the race where the balls contact the radius.SKF ,Timken ,Fag etc... they all have these type of bearings with a long history of reliability.If I was a racer with huge HP, I would have a modified thrustbearing housing to accomodate an additional "true" double sided thrust bearing ,or the combination type [radial and axial thrust].Model boat racers use axial load thrust bearings with their 15.ooo+ propshaft RPM's ,which ones have a greater ball contact area for support.
[ July 22, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[LVjetboy]

Spectras,
I believe all max capacity (fill slot) bearings will have a notch in either inner, outer or both races. As for the tendency of balls to contact this edge, I suppose that depends on the bearing manufactured contact angle and notch depth, but that tendency contributes to a prefered notch orientation.
But some max capacity have the loaded shoulder on the inner race, with inward converging lines of contact. In this design, the notch should be towards the rear of the boat. Here's pictures of both designs and correct notch orientation:
Inward converging (notch aft):
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/InwardConv.gif
Outward converging (notch forward):
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/OutwardConv.gif
I believe the different contact angle designs, both apparently used in pumps, led to the contradictory (and confusing) references in the Seloc manual to notch orientation.
Awhile ago, Duane from High Tech Performance cut apart lots of thrust bearings removed from old pumps. Here's a picuture he posted:
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/CutBearing.gif
He found the majority of these bearing were of the outward convergent design, as in #2 and #4, although I don't remember the percentage now, and that post is long gone.
You mentioned race application, and I was wondering about that too. Are they using conrads or a different design?
jer
[ July 22, 2002, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[LVjetboy]

Hi Hoss!
Remember? You nominated SuperDave here:
SuperDave becomes president of the BRF's (http://free.***boat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001301;p=2)
...which he graciously accepted three posts later. Then, I believe Gigahiway suggested a BRF racing division and I countered with a BRF club and ask if I could join. You confirmed my membership two posts later. SuperDave designed a logo, and others started joining including yourself and the rest is Hot Boat Forum history :)
jer
[ July 22, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[spectras only]

Lovejet, you have a valid point regarding the convergence and thrust direction on the bearings ,however the installations were never given a problem regarding the orientation of the slot.I've had some bearings with more than acceptable noise when new and descarding them.I'm going to install the slots now on facing towards the engine wink and if they fail ,I'll send them to you for a refund :D .J/K

[spectras only]

damn double posts.
[ July 22, 2002, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[LVjetboy]

Lovejet...that's a new one :) Good to know the failure rate is low no matter. Although typical forward thrust from a 60-70 mph jet may well be within limits for the notch direction too. I was surprised at the abuse my NTN bearing took after 10 years of engine misalignments, wave jumping and nitrous hits...no failure. About those refunds tho, sure, right after the DOW pass 10k ok? ...and I hit big at the Luxor.
One sideline for others still interested...about identifying race design for max fill w/o cutting apart. On the 3307 NTN out of the dragn (photo below), the larger of the two notches is cut in the outer race:
http://users.lvcm.com/lvjetboy/NotchSize.gif
This bearing is the outward convergent design.
I noticed from Duane's pictures the inward convergent bearings appear to have the larger notch cut in the inner race. Although this may not be universally true to distinguish between the two, maybe an easy check? Especially if the races are filled with grease.
jer
[ July 22, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[SoCalPower]

jweeks123:
thank you LV for an informative post. you may lose your BRF card if you keep using references. ;-)
has anyone asked a jet service guy what they see for failures?
jwJW,
Check your mail.
db

[BBC502]

While this thread is still going on I have a question. My pump is a new JG from CP performance. It's an "A" impeller with a stuffer. The first couple of hours of operation there wasn't any noise what so ever out of the pump. Last weekend I went out to the river and when I accellerated out of the marina I noticed a whine. Not very loud and when I turned the boat it seems to go away. I pulled the belt on the alternator to be sure it wasn't making the noise. U joints "look" good, but are 10 years old. Where would you look first for the whine?....Bill

[jweeks123]

thanks for the info, SoCalPower.
BBC502 you might want to find a reputeable jet shop in your area and have them listen to that noise. could be an unhappy bearing (probably humming in czecho. haha)
jw

[AGGRESSOR JETS]

checkmate76:
If the bearing is only 49.00, then why are the bearing "kits" so expensive?
Mine is making a noise "sometimes" so I figured I would replace the thrust bearing, but do I need all that other stuff in the kit.
when u-joints go bad do they make noise also?
just wondering where th problem liesOur rebuild kit is List $240.00 T/Bearing, Graphite Hi RPM Packing Rings (set Of 5 Rings), Hardened Lipped Wear Ring & Liner, Full set of J.M. CLipper Seals (Not Import JUNK @ 1/4th cost)Teflon O'Ring, O'Rings,Bowl Bushings, Shaft Snap Ring, Full set of Gaskets H/D & available in both single or double bolt patterns, Nyliners, Shim kit & Misc. I think this is a fair price for Quality Componentsand I think we are lower most if not all.
Your U-Joints can go bad and are rebuildable see your Dana Spicer man for parts.
Take Care- Dave

[spectratoad]

I just said the heck with it and pulled the pump and dropped it off @ Sonny's Marine here in Reno and he is going to blueprint and get it back together near new.
BBC- Mine had the whine in it and it looks like a thrust bearing.

[acatitude]

Todd, you may want to find out about impeller since your taking it apart. Changing the impeller may get your 5 mph back.

[SoCalPower]

LVjetboy:
BRF = Bench Racing Fag. Someone who thinks they know something, but unlike the "real" wrench-turning-knuckle-scraping-beer-drinking-school-of-hard-knock "racer" finds in the end, they don't know sh*t.
A club of which I'm a card-carrying member. Of which SuperDave is the unchallenged head until he steps down. Not that I loath beer you know, just prefer Vodka.
So read on with caution :)
SoCalPower,
Not sure of the OEM's (or the pump design engineers) choice of max capacity, but one thing for sure, once specified by OEM, most likely replaced with OEM...right or wrong.
So how often do we see rear axial? I'm thinking, at worst, engine shutdown full speed? Possibly some during high speed reload as in wave jumping?
So, say you shut the engine off at full speed and see intake pressure go from zero to a 50 psi spike. Just for example...someone here may have better numbers for intake pressure. With an A impeller intake radius of about 3.6" and subtracting shaft area, gives a spike of less than 2000 lbs.
If max capacity bearings typically have 20% thrust capacity (in notch direction) of a conrad...a load rating of 11,800 lbs give's 2,360 lbs in the notch direction. Not much margin, but w/engine shutdown, short lived. And nearly static. And not happening on a regular basis? At least I hope not :)
But I've seen 30% as typical for double row maximum in the notch direction compared to opposing, depending on contact angle (ref. Machine Design, 1970 Bearing Reference Issue, The Penton Publishing Co., Cleveland, Ohio., how's that jweeks?)
The Fa/Fr ratio is used to calculate equivalent load, estimating bearing life with both axial and radial forces, based on the bearing manuf's DYNAMIC load rating, and 10% failure over a million revolutions. Not sure if or how this applies to a sudden shut-down scenario where the load is nearly static and cycles are next to nothing. But then who is? If anyone knows better have at it.
As for the Fa/Fr ratio never to exceed 0.3, I venture we do this in jets on a REGULAR basis. With relatively few bearing falures. And many of these for different reasons? I've seen limits of Fa/Fr max = 0.25 for single row radial contact max capacity, but not for double row max angular contact. Most double row max are preloaded?
All that said, conrads may be the best choice. But if you do replace with OEM 3300's, get the notch in the right direction? Just a thought.
Spectra, got Seloc from Amazon.com, used $28.40.
jerWe shall call you THRUST-MASTER, excellent work.
True, most folks will replace OE supplied components with same...even if the components are not the best choice, as in this case.
Yes, if a max-type is used, direction of fill slot is very important.
Yes, we are exceeding the .3 limit often and bearing life is shortened but seems to be acceptable for most users...or they are unaware.
Outward Convergent should always be used, it is a much stiffer arrangement and offers better shaft support, which extends seal and packing life.
BTW, I'm getting most of my info from SKF engineering catalog and I used to work for them. Part of my job was to work with various end users to upgrade OEM supplied components.....imagine that. Most OEMs (I have to emphasize most not all) install the least expensive components that will get them through the warranty period.
I think we've beat this one to death!!
db

[jweeks123]

I think we've beat this one to death!!
not while there's still BRF's around!
:D
jw

[LVjetboy]

That's for sure. I'm one of the worst beating-a-dead-horse offenders :) Thanks for the comments db.
later,
jer

[spectratoad]

Ken, your alive! You are working too hard. Are you home this weekend? We are taking Conner to marine world saturday and will be coming through that night or the next morning.
The guy doing the jet called and said the impeller was toast :mad: so I am going back to an A. It had an AA in it. He is going to blueprint and get it in top shape again. Who did the rebuild last time?

[acatitude]

Well Todd, actually i pulled it out myself. Oh well, anyways I'm going to Texas tomorrow to the American Offshore factory. I'll probably be getting a 26 nsx, so the carrera is officially for sale now. go to american-offshore.com and check the pics of nsx 26. Call Connie and stay here over night if ya want. I'll be back sunday night. I'm pretty excited although i wont get new boat till october, but they are towing it to havasu the week we are going there and trying to set up a hot boat mag. test on it that week, so that would be cool to see your own boat in the mag, and we will know exactly how fast it is LOL . Talk to ya soon, theres a commisssion check with your name on it if ya send me a buyer for the carrera.

[jweeks123]

Spectratoad, do you have a digital camera? if so, when you get the old impeller back why not post some pics of it so we can see what a "toasted" impeller looks like. thanks
jw

[spectratoad]

JW, I will see what I can do. He wants to keep it on his wall at the shop so he can show it off too.
Ken, That sounds like fun. Can't wait to see the new boat. I will go to the website and check it out. How was the trip this weekend? How much are you asking for the Carrera just in case I get someone interested?

[spectratoad]

Ken, Just looked at the boat on the website. Looks good. Do they throw in a couple of the babes too? So are we going for a ride at Tower Park? :D

[acatitude]

I wont have the new one by tower and i hope i dont have the old one either by then. I think I will ask 18500 for the carrera and see what happens. The motor and all accessaries are worth that alone. Give me a call some time and we can talk. Also selling the landcruiser. lowering price to 8250 for quick sale. 1972 fj-40 v-8 auto, rancho susp., audi buckets, new tires, trans cooler, after market warn hubs, hard and soft top & doors. And I might sell m.h. for what i owe. Time to get a new fleet. mamma and kids for sale also. LOL

[spectratoad]

JWEEKS, I got the impeller and the first 1/4 to 1/2 inch around the wear ring area is gone. He said that sand got in the and just ate it. :o
Ken, I am going to go golf a little, I will try to call when I get home.

[acatitude]

OK Todd, bet that was some of nelsons point wonderful sand and mud from the water being so low, or remember thats a boat not a 4x4.

[AGGRESSOR JETS]

jweeks123:
[b]
from what I've seen Aggressor sells the low cost ZKL bearing made in the eastern european hotbed of maufacturing technology - Czechoslovakia. your list seems like better choices
[/i]Don't always let your cost be your basis -Your listed Bearings are all fine and good- However as I stated our warrenty (which is a out of pocket net loss to us) I have serious doubt that any you listed could out perform the ZKL experance we have had at a .000150% experance loss factor (based on a purchase of 4300 units the past years 2000/2001 in warrenty loss (2002 data was not included as the year is not complete). I know the level of Performance these Bearings see & the performance builders who buy them. I am also very active with the boat owners and bearing failure is not a concern.
I don't knock the Mfgs you listed at all. Fact is we had several out when we were doing our selection.
We picked the bearing based on frontal load yield factors found in the ZKL Bearing. ZKL showed 1 to 3 degree higher angular thrust loads than did any other shown us.
I hope cost or name is not your purchase standard.
Also the notches forward or to rear- This was researched in a prior string- Each Manufacture has a reason for set Front/Rear. You must find out from the specific mfg. Our ZKL is to the rear.
Thanks for allowing the input- Dave

[AGGRESSOR JETS]

LVjetboy:
BRF = Bench Racing Fag. Someone who thinks they know something, but unlike the "real" wrench-turning-knuckle-scraping-beer-drinking-school-of-hard-knock "racer" finds in the end, they don't know sh*t.
A club of which I'm a card-carrying member. Of which SuperDave is the unchallenged head until he steps down. Not that I loath beer you know, just prefer Vodka.
So read on with caution :)
SoCalPower,
Not sure of the OEM's (or the pump design engineers) choice of max capacity, but one thing for sure, once specified by OEM, most likely replaced with OEM...right or wrong.
So how often do we see rear axial? I'm thinking, at worst, engine shutdown full speed? Possibly some during high speed reload as in wave jumping?
So, say you shut the engine off at full speed and see intake pressure go from zero to a 50 psi spike. Just for example...someone here may have better numbers for intake pressure. With an A impeller intake radius of about 3.6" and subtracting shaft area, gives a spike of less than 2000 lbs.
If max capacity bearings typically have 20% thrust capacity (in notch direction) of a conrad...a load rating of 11,800 lbs give's 2,360 lbs in the notch direction. Not much margin, but w/engine shutdown, short lived. And nearly static. And not happening on a regular basis? At least I hope not :)
But I've seen 30% as typical for double row maximum in the notch direction compared to opposing, depending on contact angle (ref. Machine Design, 1970 Bearing Reference Issue, The Penton Publishing Co., Cleveland, Ohio., how's that jweeks?)
The Fa/Fr ratio is used to calculate equivalent load, estimating bearing life with both axial and radial forces, based on the bearing manuf's DYNAMIC load rating, and 10% failure over a million revolutions. Not sure if or how this applies to a sudden shut-down scenario where the load is nearly static and cycles are next to nothing. But then who is? If anyone knows better have at it.
As for the Fa/Fr ratio never to exceed 0.3, I venture we do this in jets on a REGULAR basis. With relatively few bearing falures. And many of these for different reasons? I've seen limits of Fa/Fr max = 0.25 for single row radial contact max capacity, but not for double row max angular contact. Most double row max are preloaded?
All that said, conrads may be the best choice. But if you do replace with OEM 3300's, get the notch in the right direction? Just a thought.
Spectra, got Seloc from Amazon.com, used $28.40.
jerI keep seeing the BRF-was lost on it-Thanks & great analysis on the bearings-a Old overkilled subject-
Greese them on a maintained basis (one of the few things a pump likes beyond blowing off props)who has problems with them anyway- @ $49.00 or $89.00 Its not a weak point in the pump unless you loose one- I think caution should be made to those that don't take care of the thrust bearing -As i did see two motors loose there cranks this year- Both people were of the mind set- just run it. Take Care-Dave

[LVjetboy]

Aggressor,
Notch direction posts...possibly overkill and beat-a-dead-horse, apparently misunderstood by some thanks to Seloc I suppose? Not likely misunderstood now I venture.
Good point. As with most things mechanical, oil changes, regular greasing, etc., periodic maintanance most important to long life and reliability no matter the design. But why install backwards...contrary to intended design and risk early failure?
Safety factor's meant for unintended stress, safety margin or manufacturing defects and not to compensate for improper installation?
As for BRF, if confusing...never mind that. A stupid inside joke from the board, nothing more.
jer
[ August 01, 2002, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[SoCalPower]

LVjetboy:
Aggressor,
Notch direction posts...possibly overkill and beat-a-dead-horse, apparently misunderstood by some thanks to Seloc I suppose? Not likely misunderstood now I venture.
Good point. As with most things mechanical, oil changes, regular greasing, etc., periodic maintanance most important to long life and reliability no matter the design. But why install backwards...contrary to intended design and risk early failure?
Safety factor's meant for unintended stress, safety margin or manufacturing defects and not to compensate for improper installation?
As for BRF, if confusing...never mind that. A stupid inside joke from the board, nothing more.
jerI have the same question for Dave. If bearing is installed with filling-slot to the rear, the rolling elements will traverse the filling-slot on the inner ring raceway when under forward axial load conditions. The only case where it would not be a problem is if the filling-slot on the ZKL inner ring does NOT intercept the raceway.
Still beating a dead horse....and its trainer, db wink
[ August 01, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: SoCalPower ]

[AGGRESSOR JETS]

SoCalPower:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LVjetboy:
[qb]Aggressor,
db wink Was funny picked up a FAG bearing yesterday-stamped Turkey- What's this no one makes anything at home other than kids-I guess those are being made outside home also.
:D :D :D - Going to have a 4th grandchild in 4 months- This is good- My other Grandson is weighing in at a tight 245 now! Can't toss him anymore. See Ya Dave- :rolleyes: Got all the Propers after me- Told them to buy steel toe'd water shoes! Those finger slicing, toe cuttering, snad bar seeking, hole digging, all day to get there guys- need to understand safety:OUT

[K & Gs79Eliminator]

you can buy a do it yourself repair mag at amazon.com everything about berkley jets

[pops1]

SoCalPower:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LVjetboy:
[qb]Aggressor,
Notch direction posts...possibly overkill and beat-a-dead-horse, db wink I did not mean to cut it short or scurf it-but when this thread went on 6-8 pages long- A couple of months ago- One thing came out of that-I think Dwayne @ HiTech found or someone did, that all Mfgs have a different rule on whare the slot goe's. So I am staying out of that -as I would think all would be the same- To me if the shaft is pushing the balls forward- you would want the notch to the rear, to avoid the push scaring the ball at the notch. Dave -Aggressor(Ps- I changed my name because you have stripped me of all my stars, so I am starting over as a 5 star) :D :D :D :D :D O MY GOD- You have me down to 2 here also-Man,PooP,Guy,That Sucks-Too Ya. Races @ Chowchilla this weekend!Dave
[ August 02, 2002, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: pops1 ]

[SoCalPower]

I'm not a quitter......but I'm quitting on this topic.
Use max-type w/slot fore or aft, use conrad type (no slot), use outward or inward convergent, use clearanced QJ w/nut.
Bottom line, build it, lube it, use it.
Let's move on.
db

[LVjetboy]

Hey Dave, here's 5 more stars on both your handles, old and new...
Cheers!
jer