Impeller pre-loader installation pics [Archive]

Froggystyle

11-26-2002, 01:06 PM

Again, several months ago, RiverDave helped me do some pump work on On The Rocks. We were having some holeshot issues, and after winning the "best reason not to own a prop" contest, Agressor Jet Drives provided a Mag-Bronze impeller and DPS pre-loader impeller.
You need to remove the input shaft from the pump, machine the shaft to accept the pre-loader impeller, key the shaft and re-install. Here is a little photographic essay on the machining process, as well as some trick stuff we did over the top.
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/davemachine1.jpg
On this set, you can see how Dave actually keyed the spacer, and didn't leave any keyway sticking out the front at all, preventing water disturbance going into the impeller loader. We de-burred the impeller loader as well, and polished the face and sharpened the leading edge a little. In addition, Dave smoothed out some rough spots on the wear ring. The assembled pics are obviously minus impeller, but you can see how the pre-loader is installed.
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/davemachine2.jpg
The impeller loader works awesome! We were able to quantify results while at Havasu for the Monster Garage shoot, and we ran a little over 78 mph on GPS spinning the Aggressor "B" (Comparable to a Berkeley "A" ) at right around 6000 RPM's.
Thanks again for the help Dave. The project turned out awesome.
Wes
[ November 26, 2002, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

pops1

11-26-2002, 01:48 PM

Froggystyle:
awesome.
WesNice Job Dave!!! :cool: :cool: :cool: Dave-Agg.

SPECTRABRENT

11-26-2002, 01:58 PM

I cant believe Dave is working on a jet!
Brent

Froggystyle

11-26-2002, 02:13 PM

SPECTRABRENT:
I cant believe Dave is working on a jet!
BrentI was thinking the same thing when Dave grabbed my pump!

miller19j

11-26-2002, 03:06 PM

Froggy,
Looks great! I just rebuilt my jet and found that all the parts from the factory were out of spec, tolerances way off and nothing was concentric it took a lot of work to make it right. So I am sure that the job Dave did for you will be much better than if you bought a prepped shaft from the maker. Plus the spacer is pretty trick.
Dave,
I have a question for you. It looks like you used a 3 jaw chuck to hold the shaft. Why did you decide not to hold it between centers? I am not critiquing your work I am just curious.

cyclone

11-26-2002, 03:54 PM

i had no idea dave had such skills.. Impressive Dave, very impressive.

intense

11-26-2002, 04:14 PM

Wes, do you have any pics of the battery setup?

miller19j

11-26-2002, 04:23 PM

I'm not really sure what you mean by holding it "between" centers. The shaft is alot longer then you can see in the pic. Behind the cutter about 6 inches the front of the part was being held with a "live center" if that's what your asking. Sorry Dave maybe I am use to the Old School methods.
Let me clarify a little more. I meant setting the shaft up between a Dead Center on the spindle end with a lathe dog and a Live Center on the other end. Is this not done anymore? I tought myself how to do lathe work on a fifty year old lathe with fifty year old books, so I may be a little outdated.

Froggystyle

11-26-2002, 04:36 PM

intense:
Wes, do you have any pics of the battery setup?I do but I can't find them. They are not billet however. I welded them out of steel for weight and strength.
Over Dave's protests too I might add...
I'll take some more of the setup.

miller19j

11-26-2002, 04:43 PM

RiverDave:
Miller19J, I have typed about 5 responses to this question and everytime I've reread them they come off like a "smart ass/know it all."
If you'd really like to know I'll answer it, but I want you to know that the "tone" described above is not my intent.
RDThats funny I rewrote my post several times so it wouldnt come off wrong and I was still a little uneasy about how you would take it.
Heres where I am coming from I am a self tought machinist and am just looking for reasons why people do things different. I am really trying to learn something from the way others do things.
I will not take it wrong and I am not trying to critique the way you did it.
Sorry for hijacking your post Froggy

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 06:21 PM

Can't stand it. By now nobody cares, but, machinery wasn't always as good as it is now. If you needed a shaft to be straight and true, you turned it between centers. It goes like this. You place your ready made "dead center" in the tail stock of your lathe. A "dead center" has no moving parts. The end with the Morse taper goes in the tail stock of the lathe. This leaves the pointy end sticking out. Now you take a piece of round steel (2"dia. or so), put it in the lathe chuck and turn down a few inches so that the dia. has a step or shoulder. Remove it from the chuck turn it end for end and re-chuck it with the shoulder hard against the chuck jaws. Now cut a taper on the part sticking out to match the pointy end of the "dead center" in the tail stock. You now have centers that you can use to do precision turning on your lathe. Remember to put a little grease on the point of the "dead center" and keep the turning rpm at or below 100.
I feel better now.
old

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 06:53 PM

Oh yeah. The reason for using centers is, when you tighten a lathe chuck, it will very likely bend the shaft slightly. You can compensate somewhat by using only about 1/8th inch of the jaws and a dead center in the tail stock. Live centers have runout. Dead centers do not have runout. A setup like this will not assure precision, but it might help. With such a small grip (1/8th inch), you can't take much of a cut without the risk of losing the setup. When turning stainless, you should always have a solid setup, sharp cutter, ......never mind.
I think I'll have some Scotch.
old

miller19j

11-26-2002, 07:02 PM

Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to explain.
As I said before I am not a trained machinist or an expert. I have learned what I know by reading books and messing around with my lathe and mill.
Now that being said. My centers match the center cuts in my impeller shaft. So I did not have to chuck up my shaft and recut the angle. I think that my shaft was ground and turned between centers when it was made I am assuming that is why the center Journals are there . So theoretically it would be the most accurate way to set it up again from what I have read .
But I see your point if you set it up in the chuck and indicate it you could get it as accurate if not more. I have never liked using lathe dogs anyway. I am afraid that the cutting tool will dig in and cause the dog to spin and gall the shaft.
Here is a picture of my shaft when I was reworking it and my impeller.
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/jetimp1.JPG
Not trying to be a smartass either Just trying to learn something.

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 07:15 PM

Miller19j, that's a perfect picture of a setup between centers, using a faceplate, a turning dog, and a live center. For more precision, recut the center in the head each time you use it, and replace the live center with a dead center. A dead center is a pain in the ass because you gotta lube it (and keep it lubed) and you can't use much speed. This is not a problem when turning stainless (you can't go fast anyway). I'm sure my boat doesn't need anything better than what's in the pic. Good work.
old

Infomaniac

11-26-2002, 07:42 PM

RD,
You are wasting time here man. Not helping friends, arguing about machine work. Get busy on that V-drive.
[ November 26, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 07:58 PM

RD, the only reason for center drilling a shaft is to maintain precision. Why did you think they were there? A lathe dog is the clamp device the turns the stock by means of a finger that projects into one of the six slots in the face plate. If you're going to use centerless grinding to finish the shaft, you don't need centers.
old

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 08:09 PM

RD, you are right. A new live center is probably pretty good. If you really want to know, set up a long (couple feet) shaft that has been center drilled. Using a live center, take a cut. Put a dead center in place of the live center and check the runout. If the live center is good, there will be no runout. I use live centers all the time. If I need real precision, I check my work. I would never use a live center on a precision job without checking it. In the last 10 years, I have thrown 2 live centers in the trash. They were OK when I got them.
old

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 08:28 PM

RD, grandpa was right!
You got a V-drive?
What's it like?
old

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 08:44 PM

RD, was that a trick question? OK, I'll bite. Maybe you really don't know. It is always necessary to use an indicator when setting up a lathe. When you have finished your shaft turning, you set it up in a fixture that uses 2 dead centers. You turn it by hand and with an indicator, you check for runout. How do you do it? Do you check for concentricity? How? We did it this way 50 years ago. You got a better way?
What's a V-drive like?
old

Old Guy

11-26-2002, 08:51 PM

RD, sorry should have hit reload once more before post. I sure do envy you. You always got something to look foreward to. Most of my life, I had way more time than money. Now I've got a little money, but time seems to be running out. Nice chattin with ya. Good luck on the V-drive.
old

miller19j

11-26-2002, 10:48 PM

Wow I go away for a little while and you guys really get rolling.
Old Guy,
I would have used two dead centers in my setup but I do not have two.
RD,
When I chucked my shaft up between centers I put an indicator on it and checked it was only .001 out of round. I wouldnt be surprised if some of this was due to the Live center that I have. It is rather old and needs new bearings.
I Think what we have here is a difference between Old School machining and machining with new more accurate equipment. My lathe is older than me! As a matter of fact when is the last time you think that you could go into sears and buy a craftsman(built by atlas) lathe?
I didnt mean to hijack Froggys thread or start a big debate on machining I was just curious. Always trying to learn something.
Just for the record I see both of your points and they are both valid.

MikeC

11-27-2002, 05:58 AM

Froggy,
How about a pic of the Bronze piece?

Blown 472

11-27-2002, 07:03 AM

why didn't you just use a die grinder?? kidding, what is the spacer sleeve for? to keep the same dia from the back of the cav device to the front of the imp??

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 08:41 AM

MikeC:
Froggy,
How about a pic of the Bronze piece?Here are a couple of pics. This was taken the day after we installed the impeller-loader, and it was in the boat about 20 minutes later!
You can see the result of fitting the end play and the new bearing, as well as the way the two impellers fit into the housing.
I like the impeller. It works really well in my boat. Now we will see if I can keep the thing at 6000 and break 80. That is my goal.
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/pump_mods1.jpg
[ November 27, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

miller19j

11-27-2002, 09:12 AM

I hate to open a whole new can of worms but my manual says to set the front clearance between .025 and .030. But It sounds like you have taken your boat out for a test run and been satisfied with the results so it is probably moot.
I like the bronze impeller you wont have any of the oxidation issues that come up with the aluminum impellers. Just out of curiosity did you check the run out of the impeller wear ring surface when mounted on the shaft? I found that my Berkley impeller was off by .005 and was curious if the Aggressor was made any better?
Thanks for all the pictures and info!

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 09:21 AM

.025 and .030 is excruciatingly tight.
Berk set mine up stock at .068, and would normally set them up around .075.
Run-out was a non-issue in this case, but once installed on the shaft, we did check it and found it to be within tolerance... whatever that is.
We did not turn the impeller for an undersized wear ring... it is stock so whatever the runout is... it is.
It does work really well though. I have run my clearance down as far as .015 on my old impeller, and actually caused some scoring from sand entrapment. The new wear ring solved it, but that is too close for the river.
I pulled it out to .050 before doing this big swap out, and noticed exactly no difference.

Johnwithjm

11-27-2002, 09:37 AM

Looks like you guys are on the ball with this one. I am doing my pump now and installing a pre loader also. I had alot of cav problems out of the hole. I think this will solve the problem.

miller19j

11-27-2002, 09:38 AM

From the pictures it looks very nice.
The reason that I was asking was because the Factory Tuned impeller that I bought from Berkley was off by .005 on concentricity and .003 on the front surface. I also found that when I assembled it the clearance between the front surface of the impeller and the suction piece was .150! Needless to say I was not very impressed with my tuned impeller from Berkley! I also measured my wear ring an it was out of spec but not much and I dont remember what it was.
I was talking to Jim Miller yesterday when I picked my boat up and he said that he has got pumps from Berkley that had the front clearance as low as .010 and as high as .250. I guess the guy in QA sleeps a lot.

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 10:51 AM

Johnwithjm:
Looks like you guys are on the ball with this one. I am doing my pump now and installing a pre loader also. I had alot of cav problems out of the hole. I think this will solve the problem.It completely solved mine. In fact, I think you were there the day we did this mod...
I am very impressed with both pieces. I got more top end, and no cavitation at all.

Hermosa

11-27-2002, 12:25 PM

Froggy, If you had to buy all the parts and pay to have this mill work done and all put together, what do you think the final cost would have been. I would be interested to know. Glad to hear you were pleased with all the results from your labor, love it when A plan comes together... Score anothe victory for the jets!!

RandyH

11-27-2002, 12:28 PM

Nice job Froggy and RD,
I am glad to hear the preloader worked at both ends of the speedo. Froggy, are you going to have preloaders put on your dual drive set up and if not, would it be worth it to have the shafts cut for them to begin with. Maybe a set of spacers installed on the shaft for now. Then you could experiment with or without them. :)
Randy

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 12:46 PM

RandyH:
Nice job Froggy and RD,
I am glad to hear the preloader worked at both ends of the speedo. Froggy, are you going to have preloaders put on your dual drive set up and if not, would it be worth it to have the shafts cut for them to begin with. Maybe a set of spacers installed on the shaft for now. Then you could experiment with or without them. :)
RandyI will more than likely put "Pro-Dominators" or something like them in the next boat. They come with the pre-loader already installed.
[ November 27, 2002, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

MikeC

11-27-2002, 01:26 PM

Froggy,
Welp, your new setup looks prestine! I've seen a couple of DPS preloader impellers over the past couple of years. And they are a fairly raw cast, (pourem and shippem out). I'm assumeing Don has run them like that, and doesn't feel a need to make em pretty. Do you have any pics of it before RD blue printed it?
Here is a pic of my new preloader,
http://precisionjetdrive.com/images/1052.jpg
Also, I've seen a couple of Aggressor MagB at the track, one was fairly raw cast looking, (blades were very thick). I have also seen them prettied up and they look hot, as is yours. I'm again wondering, do you have a pic of the MB before RD did his magic on it? Most shops say that alot of these parts you buy need minor to major work. I'm wondering if this has/is changing now a these days?!
Good Job Fella's!
Thanks

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 03:05 PM

Even more specifically, I did a bunch of hand filing before I even went up to Dave's to install the piece. That's why it looked nice when he saw it first.
I have no pics of the stock piece, but when I got it, it had a cast mark all along the outer edge... kind of a lip. There was some cast flash at the base of all of the vanes, with some rough edges on both the trailing and leading edges of the vanes. I de-burred it essentially by hand before Dave saw it, and once I got up there, I polished it all on the buffing wheel with an abrasive polishing wheel. That smoothed all of the edges, and pulled out any cast marks on the faces. Dave, in an effort to show me how long it can actually take to smooth an edge, hand filed the last bit at a ridiculously slow pace wink
The impeller came just like that. I don't know if it was worked or not... Dave sent it to me like that.
In any case, it worked great.

MikeC

11-27-2002, 03:48 PM

Well again, nice job Froggy and Dave! I'm honestly wondering cause I'm at the end of my rope with an Aluminum, I'm not sure what's going to happen to it here (maybe this weekend) when I dump some NOS into the BBC. I just may be needing one myself......
Hey, by the way Froggy, I should have won that contest anyway!!! Cheat R!!
:-)
guess I'm a sore looser!
Thanks for the pics and info!

HammerDown

11-27-2002, 06:29 PM

Looks very nice...but may
i ask why the non-shouldered wear ring?

ChetCapoli

11-27-2002, 06:56 PM

Interesting topic fella's...where is ol HBjet when i need him. I wonder what he was looking at way back when we were debating impellers. Looks like the truth is coming out after all this time eh? Nice machine work also btw.
CHET

Froggystyle

11-27-2002, 08:23 PM

ChetCapoli:
Interesting topic fella's...where is ol HBjet when i need him. I wonder what he was looking at way back when we were debating impellers. Looks like the truth is coming out after all this time eh? Nice machine work also btw.
CHETI wouldn't jump on the wagon quite yet Chet. A lot of changes happened over the course of this mod. For one, I found a broken intake rocker arm, and found the timing was off a little. Once I did the new valve adjustment, fixed the arm, installed the new wear ring and impeller, added the inducer, detailed the intake, changed the loader grate, lubed everything back up, and ran the boat over a little chop with 20 degree cooler weather and 4000 ft less altitude than I had previously tested... we gained 2 mph over my previous best speed of 76. Most think it is the drop in impeller size (I don't believe now that an Aggressor "B" is the same as a Berk "A") and subsequent 400 rpm increase that did the trick.
In any case, I am happy with the results, but certainly don't attribute 100% of the success to the impeller switch. I am very happy with the piece, but will require a little more quantitative testing to truly determine which is the better of the two designs.
Tough not to be able to compare apples to apples, size wise I mean.
[ November 28, 2002, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

HBjet

11-28-2002, 01:57 AM

RiverDave:
The MagBronze impeller looked like that when Wes recieved it. The machine work, and hand work was already done to it. As far as I know this is how the Agressor MagBronze impellers ship out. I can say that I was overly impressed with the way it looked as well as with the machine work that went into it. If they all looked like that then (providing I was shopping for an impeller for some odd reason) I wouldn't buy anything except the aggressor.
The variable though is I dunno if they all look like that or not.
Long story short, I didn't touch the impeller, what you see is how it arrived to my knowledge.
The preloader impeller didn't look to bad either when it arrived, Wes just wanted to clean up a few of the casting flaws as well as sharpen some edges etc..
He did all the work on the buffing wheel himself, the only thing I did was some VERY MINOR hand filing on the leading edges to make them all the same.
RDAll this from a guy who thinks props should be on the front....haha!
Just messing with you Dave

HBjet

11-28-2002, 02:01 AM

ChetCapoli:
I wonder what he was looking at way back when we were debating impellers. Looks like the truth is coming out after all this time eh? Nice machine work also btw.
CHETChet, incase you didn't read, it was obvious there was some sort of work down to the impeller before it shipped. lets also not forget when I compared impellers, they where all aluminum. Berk, Legend, and Aggressor with ZERO machine work or detailing to any of them.
BTW, did you have get yout 700hp boat over 85mph yet? Got any photos of your hull finished and painted.....a lot of people where wondering how that turned out...
On a side note, I find it interesting you come crawling out of the wood work whenever Aggressor is mentioned....
HBjet

ChetCapoli

11-28-2002, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by HBjet:
Chet, incase you didn't read, it was obvious there was some sort of work down to the impeller before it shipped.
Maybe we can get mr. aggressor to clarify for us??
lets also not forget when I compared impellers, they where all aluminum. Berk, Legend, and Aggressor with ZERO machine work or detailing to any of them.
i remember what it was hb...i still think you need glasses
BTW, did you have get yout 700hp boat over 85mph yet? Got any photos of your hull finished and painted.....a lot of people where wondering how that turned out...
it's 87 on the nose to be exact and i hit a wall with it...tried alot of stuff and no luck. (Sure is no comparision of 80mph at 5200 with a measely 425hp like yourself) Actually to agree with you(in one sense) my impeller was .100 bigger than a B but was stamped a B..turned it to B specs and went from 5500 to 5800 with no change. Guess those brand X impellers arent as good as i thought eh? :D I'm gonna try a few more things come spring, if they dont work i just might sell it and get a bigger boat. I'll get a pic to you one of these days.
On a side note, I find it interesting you come crawling out of the wood work whenever Aggressor is mentioned....
Now you know i wouldn't pass up a chance to get a return response out of you now did ya?? Glad to know your still around and we can still go at it. :)
BTW, I hear ya on the more than one change at a time thing froggy...you just knew i couldnt hold back all this time and not say something right? :) It's all about rattling my buddy hb's cage. LMAO! Happy turkeyday fella's!!
CHET
"GUESS WHO'S BACK....ONCE AGAIN....TELL A FRIEND"
[ November 28, 2002, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: ChetCapoli ]

MikeC

11-28-2002, 08:14 PM

Hey Chet good to hear from you again. Sorry to hear that it's to chilly for you North Eastern folks to come out and play. I hope to get my cable from Ted by friday so's I can test the NOS setup! Funny how much more Jet Boaten we get to do out here, isn't it (x20+ years). Hey, why don't you take a trip out here with Ted in spring. We are planning a trip up to Bakersfield CA to see some RealJetBoats kick ass on the Flat bottom guy's! I think I need to also get some of the local Phoenix people up there so they can see how it is done! "Right Squirtcha"............
Later

jacuzer

11-28-2002, 11:48 PM

Froggy,
Couldn't tell from looking at your pic's but was that impeller balanced? I would expect it was if it came to you worked over from the factory but I guess you never know. Do you have any closer pics impeller.
Also, sounds like you have cured your cavitation problem that you were chasing on earlier threads. Do you have any feel for: was it the inducer, the new impeller, or both?
Kevin

Froggystyle

11-29-2002, 06:10 PM

jacuzer:
Froggy,
Also, sounds like you have cured your cavitation problem that you were chasing on earlier threads. Do you have any feel for: was it the inducer, the new impeller, or both?
KevinThe inducer did volumes towards fixing my problem. I no longer cavitate at all coming out of the hole, but still maintained some top end.
Having not done incremental changes, I don't know what did it, but the combination is right on the money now.
Squirts up!