"A" impeller question

[skeepwerkzaz]

How many r's can a stock berk "A" impeller take? How high have you all spun one & how much power (est) were you making? I was just wondering.
Clay
[ October 01, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

[spectras only]

5600 RPM berk "A" approx 500HP. Boat is 19' spectra in my avatar ,gps'd at 72 MPH

[Ranz1]

I was wondering that also. As I look at all the charts on the web and the Soloc Jet book, they all same something diffrent.

[Duane HTP]

Many of us have spun Berkeley impellers way above 5500 rpm at times. But it's not safe. How long will they last that way???????? 2 days, two years, who knows. Best to go bronze after 500 HP and be safe.

[Squirtcha?]

One thing I noticed. The aluminum impeller is very light weight and the stainless isn't much heavier, but the bronze weighs a stinkin ton. I think the price differential between bronze and stainless is like $300? I can't help but wonder what, if any, difference there is in performance and pump parts longevity with all the additional weight of bronze imps.
If I were to ever spend the money on a better impeller (and running 600 hp with N20 @ 5600 rpm I guess I should), I'd go right to the stainless rather than that heavy ass'd bronze.
[ October 01, 2003, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[pops1]

Squirtcha?:
One thing I noticed. The aluminum impeller is very light weight and the stainless isn't much heavier, but the bronze weighs a stinkin ton. I think the price differential between bronze and stainless is like $300? I can't help but wonder what, if any, difference there is in performance and pump parts longevity with all the additional weight of bronze imps.
If I were to ever spend the money on a better impeller (and running 600 hp with N20 @ 5600 rpm I guess I should), I'd go right to the stainless rather than that heavy ass'd bronze. Several points here-Bronze Impeller &
Mag.Bronze are night & day in strength.
Please understand if you are talking Bronze
you are talking a impeller I would not
run over 650 HP- Bronze Alloy is a
simple pour alloy.
Most Metal Tec's on here will tell
you Mag Bronze is a very hard alloy
to pour & get a sound Impeller.
We have beat this Bronze alloy to
death trying to get the right alloy
to withstand the pressure loads we
require.
Our Mag Bronze Impeller weight is
2 pounds lighter then our 17-4 stainless.
In all cases on our impellers you can
trim the shroud down and remove several
pounds off.
We did this for a short time and then
stopped.
Next Year we will resume additional
trimming as a option, yet on big motors
I do not recommend it, inside pressures
get big time.
Now I say all this as maney run 500 HP
on Alum. impellers and when I talk to them
I hear "I KNOW"
The Highest "A" on our Impeller was around
8300 RPMS- 17-4 Stainless
The Highest on our 9 1/8" "B" cut was 8600
David Kirkland- Smoking & Stroking.4-5 years
ago. 17-4 stainless. Knowing Dave's motors
I would guess 3500+ HP not sure.
Suggested List:
Price - Our Mag Bronze @ $695.00
Our 17-4 Stainless @ $1,289.00
99% Mag.Bronze Covers/Big Fuel Motors 17-4
See ya @ IHBA World Finals- Dave Aggressor

[skeepwerkzaz]

Squirtcha?
You are running 600 HP @ 5600 and Spectra's only turns 5600 and claims 500 HP. Does the different hull design and pump builders make that much of a difference? Thanks again for the info guys, I really appreciate it.
Clay

[spectras only]

Skeep, this particular boat [1978] is completely original ,has the original impeller with the s/s wear ring which isn't as tight as a shouldered bronze wear ring wink . I had the pump inspected and has 25 thou total clearence so I've left it alone to maintain the boat as original as it can be .There's no cavitation at all on the holeshot and the speed I've got out of it speaks for itself. So there was no point replacing the wear ring.With the supertrapps on ,it turns around 5300 ,so don't really worry about running alu impeller.I had alu impeller in my 20 jet boat for 26 years [ was also turning around 5300] .All the busted impellers I saw was caused mainly by thrust bearing failures or someone "blueprinted it" with very tight clearences :p

[quiet riot]

I've put about 600hp to an alum A imp for about 8 years. Its a 400 hp sbf with a 250 hp plate N2O kit (don't think I'm really getting 250 hp from the plate kit cause the motor isn't built for the N2O.) I've run about 400lbs of N2O through it.
I finally got bit when trying out droops/wedges at the drag races. It cavitated (I think due to an air bubble) when I launched it and the impeller grenaded. It was a billet aluminum impeller I'd been running for about a year, I'd used a cast al A before that.
This is a legend jet pump and I turn 5k rpm with 400hp motor and 5600 with N2O. When running w/out N2O, I jump wakes/rapids and no problems, but I'm just pushing it too much with the N2O I guess.
I'm in the process of building a new motor and I'll prob end up going to stainless as I'm gonna add about 200+ hp to what I've got now.
just my exp,
jd

[Squirtcha?]

skeepwerkzaz:
Squirtcha?
You are running 600 HP @ 5600 and Spectra's only turns 5600 and claims 500 HP. Does the different hull design and pump builders make that much of a difference? Thanks again for the info guys, I really appreciate it.
Clay Clay,
I think we're talking apples and oranges to a degree. I'm running an Aggressor A impeller that has been cut down to an AB. I've always heard (and maybe Pops 1 can add something here) that there is a half size difference between Berkeley and Aggressor. In other words an Aggessor AB would rev about the same as a Berkeley A? Not sure if that's right or not though, or if it is...........why it is.
Also not clear on Spectra's rpm. The first one says 5600 rpm and the second one says 5300 rpm.
I just couldn't resist jumping on the coattails of your post as it was always something I was curious about.
Ye-ouch
Just noticed the price of a stainless impeller. Holy crap dat's a lota scratch.
[ October 01, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[quiet riot]

Squirtcha, looks like we run pretty similar, I get 80 mph with n2o at 5600 rpm also, and I'm always looking for more. Thats why I'm building a new motor.
My sbf needs a little more n2o to get there though, as it has less hp to start with .
jd

[Squirtcha?]

jd,
Do ya have any more pics of your boat? I like the bow shot but I'm curious as to what the rest of it looks like. That's a cool little rig ya got there and 80 mph with a sbf is pretty darned impressive.

[quiet riot]

pics, just not the greatest. They were taken off a dig camcorder.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1036v-thumb.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1036y-thumb.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1036u-thumb.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1036boat1-thumb.jpg I'll have to take the camera out next time I go a boatin. Never really done any pic's while boating. I might have some from the drags if I can find em.
jd

[spectras only]

[B]Originally posted by Squirtcha?:
Also not clear on Spectra's rpm. The first one says 5600 rpm and the second one says 5300 rpm.
Squitcha, turning 5300 with the trapps, 5600 without. Just made the note ,cause I feel comfortable with the AL imp at 5300 wink .Too much money for S/S . I would go for the man bronze myself.

[spectras only]

Originally posted by Squirtcha:
Also not clear on Spectra's rpm. The first one says 5600 rpm and the second one says 5300 rpm.
Squirtcha, I'm turning 5300 with the trapps, 5600 without. Just made the note ,cause I feel comfortable with the AL imp at 5300 wink .Too much money for S/S . I would go for the man bronze myself. [/QB][/QUOTE]

[spectras only]

DP :rolleyes:

[spectras only]

WTF ?]

[spectras only]

WTF ? Trying to get my post count up :D

[TIMINATOR]

I have run an American Turbine AA ALUMINUM impeller at 5800 rpm for over a year,and have run the original Dominator A aluminum impeller prior to that at 6100 RPM. I'm starting to worry though and will buy a Stainless AA over the winter. BUT the boat is allways hooked up and I have no cavitation at all. I hear that the cavitation is the problem with the aluminums coming apart. TIMINATOR :)

[Squirtcha?]

O.K. Spectra..........all is clear now. If you're running 72 mph @ 5600 without the baffles, then what is your speed at 5300 rpm with em? I'm just curious due to the fact we may be seeing some noise statutes being taken more seriously here in Arizona. So far they're not really messing with anyone, but for how long? That's the question. A 300 rpm loss is an absolute killer. I worked real hard (and spent a lot of money) for those 300 rpm. It could all go down the tubes all over a set of $150 baffles and people with sensitive hearing.
Thanks
Quiet Riot,
Thanks for putting up the pics. Wow, you sit quite a bit further forward than ours eh? Or is it just an illusion? Looks to have a short deck but considerably more room in the passenger area.
[ October 01, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[spectras only]

Squirtcha , I've GPS'd the boat here in vancouver at sea level without the trapps.The boat is in the okanagan [1000' above sea level and temps in the high 90's] all the time with the trapps in [7 plates]to satisfy the neighbours :( the speed is down to 63. I have the Rex slip in mufflers [ 4" exhaust tips] in my V-drive boat and the rpm loss is less [around 150].It does take out the bark quite nicely.Still has a healty rumble but definately subdued.Pssst wink ,here in the lower mainland we don't have any prob with sound regulation so far , but the big guns in the okanagan getting a lot of attention lately eek!
[ October 01, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[skeepwerkzaz]

TIMMINATOR,
I think that was you that I followed to the dam on Sat. I would have liked to stay on it but my girlfriends boobies :D :D sometimes get to call the shots. Maybe boating bras......anyway how far into it did you get during our little blast? I could tell that thing moved.
Clay

[quiet riot]

squirtcha, Yah, its a little shorter deck. I basically took the design of a short sprintjet and lengthened it to allow for more passanger/cargo room while still trying to maintain the awesome handling of the sprintjets. The bottom is not really designed for speed but rather turning/holding corners and cutting through chop. I've lost about 7 mph with all the weight i've added to it, but I gottsa have all my junk in the boat.
jd

[Badboat1]

Here is what I did with mine
AA-6600 rpm 800HP
B -7200 800HP And bottom worked on boat
A -6800 1300HP
But put the 3/4 closed loader in with the A and we did cut it down a bit later and back to 7000
BB1

[screamdreambrad]

pops1 tommy cut the small diameter on my new mag-bronze, don't remember the measurement, but i am going to need some off the large side too. only turning 5900 with 750 hp. i am going to need about 400 or so more rpm. dyno'ed at 751, 7000 rpm. what do you think? (lime green edge). thanks, brad

[TIMINATOR]

Now I'm confused, SKEEP was dat chu? Ive heard it was, it wasn't,it was? Was it? I just swatted it, no trim adjustment, no N2O,just got there so full fuel (48gal)too. Under those conditions it runs about 88 w/3 people. If I air it out (wife doesnt like that though)about91-92. Tomorrow I'm gonna try it with just me, no cooler and the rest of the fuel from Saturday (27 gal),with the latest mods, maybe the big 100? Was 96-97 before the changes, hope I didn't go the wrong way! Oh yeah, with 3 people, cooler, and 22 gal of gas(REGULAR!!!), and N2O have RADARED at 103! Lookin fer 100 on motor and whatever on bottle, maybe? Also the offer on carb help (idle)still stands, mine will idle for hours! We like to go waaaay back up in the feeders! TIMINATOR :cool:

[1FastHallett]

I HAVE A 74 HALLETT WITH A JACUZZI JET THAT I HAVE INSTALED THE ENERGIZER KIT ON SO ITS BASICLY BERKLEY BOWL AND IMPELLER FROM WHAT I UNDERSTA. I TURN MINE OVER 600 RPM, IVE NEVER BEEN CLOCKED, BUT I KNOW IM HAULIN SERIOUS ASS!!!! I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT GOING STAINLESS AND HAVING BOWL WORK DONE. ANY IDEAS ON PRICE AND WHO I SHOULD HAVE DO THE WORK? IM IN SOUTHERN CALI (ONTARIO AREA) THANX FOR THE HELP!!

[flat broke]

1FastHallett:
I HAVE A 74 HALLETT WITH A JACUZZI JET THAT I HAVE INSTALED THE ENERGIZER KIT ON SO ITS BASICLY BERKLEY BOWL AND IMPELLER FROM WHAT I UNDERSTA. I TURN MINE OVER 600 RPM, IVE NEVER BEEN CLOCKED, BUT I KNOW IM HAULIN SERIOUS ASS!!!! I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT GOING STAINLESS AND HAVING BOWL WORK DONE. ANY IDEAS ON PRICE AND WHO I SHOULD HAVE DO THE WORK? IM IN SOUTHERN CALI (ONTARIO AREA) THANX FOR THE HELP!! MPD.
Call Jack at Marine Peformance Designs in Costa Mesa. The nicest, most honest guy you could hope to meet, and he just happens to do absolutely amazing work. :)
Chris

[LVjetboy]

1fasthallet,
Turned over 600 rpm? Do you mean 6000? Most jets idle above 600 rpm.
Impeller power absorbed = impeller required input power depending on pump manufacturer. In other words NOT pump housing mfg. As in the impeller sets the curve not the pump housing mfg. So if you post your hp or rpms, take the time to also post your impeller mfg if different than your pump mfg.
Squirtcha runs an Aggressor A/B at 5600 so the curves say 607 hp. Not far off his claim of 600 hp.
Spectras says a Berk A at 5600 but the curve says 554 hp. He also reports 500 hp. Then says 5300 with mufflers. I'd say either the 5600 rpm was suspect or the claim of 500 hp. Because it's unlikely a Berk A will turn 5600 with 500 hp unless there's impeller issues.
jer
[ October 03, 2003, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[screamdreambrad]

lvjetboy, 5900 aggressor b mag-bronze, small dia. cut down just a touch. don't remember the measurement. billit inducer. 10.92 96mph edge tunnel. 751 on dyno at 7000. 678 @5900. does that work out on your side?

[Elk Chaser]

As an old HVAC Tech (among other things) I completely understand the "pump curve" as it is a standard measurement of an impeller (or a fan for that matter) and the proporational relationship of the required HP to turn it at a specific RPM. (It is manufacturer specific to a small degree)
One thing not mentioned and maybe no one really cares is that you can closely predict the amount of water/air being moved also.
My question is that the Berkley pump curve chart (at least the one I found) does not go above the A2 cut.
I was running (before I tore the boat apart) a 4A Berk impeller at 4000 RPM WOT, what does that say about HP?
If I estimate the chart based upon the pump curves staying proportional from the A2 to the A3 and A4 cuts then I estimate somewhere between 350 and 400 HP. Anybody know of or have a chart for the A4 cut on a Berk?

[Wild Man]

Where can you find any of these pump charts?

[pops1]

Squirtcha?:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skeepwerkzaz:
[qb] Squirtcha?
I think we're talking apples and oranges to a degree. I'm running an Aggressor A impeller that has been cut down to an AB. I've always heard (and maybe Pops 1 can add something here) that there is a half size difference between Berkeley and Aggressor. In other words an Aggessor AB would rev about the same as a Berkeley A? Not sure if that's right or not though, or if it is...........why it is.
Ye-ouch
Just noticed the price of a stainless impeller. Holy crap dat's a lota scratch. Squirtcha- Aggressor "B" is everyone else "A"
so your running 1/2 Cut over "A" which would be a A+ to most others.
.....WHY is
Frontal Load (Bite), Duration
of water ride,and from 6- to 32 cfm @ RPM.
Impeller in its produced state was intended
to be a Blue Printed standard, and is ran
by most racers as produced stock.
Tooling has been flowed & vane standard
is min. thickness(Volumn Flow).
Alloy standards were selected for specific
HP ranges. IE Alum to 450/Mag Bronze 1200/
17-4 Stainless 1200+ to Fuel Boats.
The Impeller is designed for Performance
Improvment, not for your everyday beat
around to fly or eat rocks.
The Bulk has been removed in design.& will
not require a $250.00 Grind Job to open
passages up. "You can't open them more"
You can remove Outside Bulk on Mag &
Stainless- We ask to guide you, HP VS
outside wall thickness.
Blue Printing is reduced to a specific Cut, Bowl entree/exit line up, Stuffer and the net fits.
In Simple, Its Load/Duration/ & Volumn Output.
Stainless Cost- Is high-
It tears machines & cutters up, you loose a % of each load due to extream heat @ pour-(Inner core shifts due to heat)
Mag Bronze is the proven alternative (not Bronze or Alum Bronze) it exceed most others Stainless @ 1/2 the Cost.
Well proven on Big HP across the country.
[ October 03, 2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: pops1 ]

[1FastHallett]

thanx for the information. i dont know who the manufacturer is of my impeller, i bought the energizer kit wich came from american turbin. so i would assume then that they make the impeller, but i dont know. where can i get this information?

[1FastHallett]

and also thank you flat broke, i will be giving him a call!

[Squirtcha?]

Thanks for the clarification Pops. I won't pretend to understand every word of it, but it did help answer some of my questions. I'll be taking a closer look at the mag bronze when the time comes to replace again.

[LVjetboy]

screamdreambrad,
Impeller curve for Aggressor B @ 5900 = 650 hp. To compare to dyno run you'd need to adjust this number to account for differences in temp, presssure, humidity, configuration, etc. between lake and dyno.
jer

[skeepwerkzaz]

OK,
So if I can turn 5600 fairly easily I am doing alright. I have only been out with it four times since project completion, and haven't felt good about flooring it yet, I still have an oil leak that must be fixed before I really lay into it. I hope that when I get it tuned perfectly and my bugs worked out I may be able to sneak up near 6K. What kind of speed do you think that will translate to in a Nordic Jet? Any bets, guesses???
Clay

[LVjetboy]

How fast at 5600? Then I'll guess.
:)
jer

[skeepwerkzaz]

Dunno,
Haven't GPS'd it.

[wsuwrhr]

From what I gather I am making 450-500hp to spin a Berk A at 5000rpms?
I can't believe my motor makes that much power.
Brian

[LVjetboy]

Berk A @ 5000 = 400 hp.
jer

[pops1]

LVjetboy:
Berk A @ 5000 = 400 hp.
jer Sent you a E on Dual or Twin Prop also posted under Dual, you get it.
Also to the Enigizer Kit Guy
You can use the berkeley chart- Impeller flows some 10cfm over berkeley but has some 18" of mercury bounce which relates to cav. Net is or should be close.

[wsuwrhr]

LVjetboy:
Berk A @ 5000 = 400 hp.
jer Sounds about right, thanks for the info
Brian

[LVjetboy]

Got it Dave, thanks for the info!
jer

[FordTech]

So here is a question. I am running 5000 rpm's with a "A" impeller at 5500 - 6000 foot above sea level, depending on the lake. Any idea on the possible horse power of this engine at sea level??

[Squirtcha?]

You'd have to go run your boat at sea level and get the max mph and rpm numbers for the program to give you horsepower.
No matter what the circumstances, you'd need at least two of the three variables to figure out the unknown.
rpm and mph to figure hp
hp and rpm to figure mph
etc. etc.
Oh yeah and impeller cut, but in your particular case, that would be a constant not a variable
[ October 12, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Squirtcha? ]

[Jungle Boy]

Since every one else is running their numbers, I'll toss in mine just confuse the issue deeper!!
- Berkley SS "B", 5600 RPM @ 3200 ft = 98 MPH.
- 21' aluminum Eagle Tunnel. :D

[spectras only]

JB, out of curiosity what is your tin can boat weighs on the scales with fuel etc...? For a 21' boat with a small block [ or is it a BB ? :p ]your speed is exhilarating :cool: .A buddy of mine keep bombarding me with questions about building an alu boat with SB in mind.I've seen your model in life and it's really nice but too pricey for my bud.He also wants a smaller model like max 19'.How much would a bare 19' hull/deck cost at eagle? BTW ,is the 29 sport finished yet? That's the hull I'd like to have with twin SB's wink
[ October 12, 2003, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: spectras only ]

[Jungle Boy]

spectras only:
JB, out of curiosity what is your tin can boat weighs on the scales with fuel etc...? For a 21' boat with a small block [ or is it a BB ? :p ]your speed is exhilarating :cool: .A buddy of mine keep bombarding me with questions about building an alu boat with SB in mind.I've seen your model in life and it's really nice but too pricey for my bud.He also wants a smaller model like max 19'.How much would a bare 19' hull/deck cost at eagle? BTW ,is the 29 sport finished yet? That's the hull I'd like to have with twin SB's wink My race boat weighs about 1350 lbs with fuel. They run very well with not much HP, I run a 560 HP small block. The cost of a bare hull is about 7500 Canadian (but don't quote me on that). You'd have to get a hold of Eagle and ask them. The 29' is going to be winter project. This photo was taken last week at Sylvan Lake. It's going to be a very cool ride when completed.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/259P1010050-med.jpg

[HammerDown]

Jungle Boy:
Since every one else is running their numbers, I'll toss in mine just confuse the issue deeper!!
- Berkley SS "B", 5600 RPM @ 3200 ft = 98 MPH.
- 21' aluminum Eagle Tunnel. :D Impressive numbers to say the least with a 21' hull eek! .
Could you post a pic?

[Jungle Boy]

Here ya go. Have a whole bunch.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/259Baldy99.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/259File0003_sm-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/259File0004_sm-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/259MAP0004-med.jpg

[HammerDown]

Well then, I guess thats that!

[HammerDown]

Jungle Boy
The 29' is going to be winter project. This photo was taken last week at Sylvan Lake. It's going to be a very cool ride when completed.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/259P1010050-med.jpg [/QB]Just wondering what this one would do with a Jet and BB?

[spectras only]

JB, thanks for the info & pics.

[LVjetboy]

JB, I'd say your race boat's light and very well setup. Nice numbers.
Posted by FordTech: I am running 5000 rpm's with a "A" impeller at 5500 - 6000 foot above sea level, depending on the lake. Any idea on the possible horse power of this engine at sea level??
Assuming yours is a Berkeley "A" According to impeller curves, you're seeing about 395 hp at 5000 rpm. Of course, Berk impeller curves are for stock pumps not modified. So assuming your pump is stock, you'll see about 500 hp at sea level just based on altitude pressure effects. i.e. same temp, wx and humidity conditions as your 5500 ft altitude rpm data point...only a lower altitude.
About 100 hp more. Not bad huh?
jer
[ October 13, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[FordTech]

thanks, it is a berkley je pump. it is getting built this winter. just put my engine in and only had time to break it in before I had to winterize it. she is ready to go for next year though. :cool:

[77468sleekcraft]

Im turning 5300 rpm with an A impeller thats about right huh? :D