Parker Dam to be Barricaded

[Boatcop]

This week the Bureau of Reclamation will be installing a floating aluminum poonton barricade across the River at Parker Dam.
It will be going in just above the "cable", to prevent boats from going into the security zone below the dam. There are also signs put in to warn people of the barrier, and the barrier will be lit at night.
It, like the cable, will be "No Mooring", with hefty federal fines ($25,000) and possibly jail for tampering with or damaging the structure.
And God help the poor soul who tries to get over, under or through it to get to the Dam. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rough/camper.gif

[hd&boatrider]

Boatcop:
This week the Bureau of Reclamation will be installing a floating aluminum poonton barricade across the River at Parker Dam.
It will be going in just above the "cable", to prevent boats from going into the security zone below the dam. There are also signs put in to warn people of the barrier, and the barrier will be lit at night.
It, like the cable, will be "No Mooring", with hefty federal fines ($25,000) and possibly jail for tampering with or damaging the structure.
And God help the poor soul who tries to get over, under or through it to get to the Dam. http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/rough/camper.gif I think the action is appropriate at this time. If someone does cross the barrier you have my blessing to shoot and ask questions later. If someone did this they deserve it. Just my opinion and it could be wrong...but I doubt it :D :D
[ March 25, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: hd&boatrider ]

[RiverToysJas]

They put one of those in at Laughlin/Davis Dam after 9/11. Personally I thought it was a "feel good" move that served no real purpose other than inconvienancing boaters. First off, you can still drive a car/truck across and around the top of the dam. Second, if you had a boat loaded with explosives and were set on getting to the dam, that wire would be a very minor obsticle. Third, Lets say the wire was enough to make you turn around, I'd bet they'd rather explode that boat at one of the casinos, where the people are anyway! Rather than under a huge concrete dam that would probably just laugh at just about any explosion you could put under it. But those are only my theories and nobody pays me to figure this shit out, so I'm probably way off base. It's just the way I see the whole wire in the water thing.
RTJas :D
[ March 25, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

[Jordy]

Damn Jas, you're scaring me because you think too much like a terrorist... :D
I think the same thing though everytime I drive across Hoover Dam into Vegas. The magnatude of explosion going across the top of the dam would have to be tremendous to really do any damage, much like lighting off a fire cracker in your open palm... It's still nice to know that precautions are being taken just in case. :D

[Jordy]

~!
:D
[ March 25, 2003, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: jordanpaulk ]

[RiverToysJas]

[ March 25, 2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: RiverDave ]

[Jordy]

I know what you said RD, but didn't want to draw anymore attention to it than need be so I went with the ~! instead... :D

[Jordy]

[ March 25, 2003, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

[DickDanger]

RiverDave
[/qb]LOL... I'm glad to see us protecting the homeland, but I'm concerned about how Life might end up being in the Homeland in a few years.
RD [/QB][/QUOTE]
I can answer this. Look at how all of this terrorism stuff has ALREADY affected life. You have increased security everywhere as it is. Life has gotten a lot more difficult since 9/11. The terrorists have accomplished what they hoped to with the majority of american citizens, as most people are living in fear as it is. I for one, refuse to change my way of life, and live under the gun of these f**kers. I have always believed that when it is my time to go, then I guess that I hafta punch out. This is my opinion, right, wrong, or indifferent. Yes, precautions should be taken, but you have to ask yourself: how much is too much? How far will we go to protect ourselves? To the point of being afraid to leave our homes in a few years? There are a number of things that can happen that ARENT preventable as it is I suppose. But as the saying goes, I would rather live one day as a lion, than a 1000 years as a lamb. Just my .02 here. -DD Out

[RiverToysJas]

DickDanger:
I can answer this. Look at how all of this terrorism stuff has ALREADY affected life. You have increased security everywhere as it is. Life has gotten a lot more difficult since 9/11. The terrorists have accomplished what they hoped to with the majority of american citizens, as most people are living in fear as it is. I for one, refuse to change my way of life, and live under the gun of these f**kers. I have always believed that when it is my time to go, then I guess that I hafta punch out. This is my opinion, right, wrong, or indifferent. Yes, precautions should be taken, but you have to ask yourself: how much is too much? How far will we go to protect ourselves? To the point of being afraid to leave our homes in a few years? There are a number of things that can happen that ARENT preventable as it is I suppose. But as the saying goes, I would rather live one day as a lion, than a 1000 years as a lamb. Just my .02 here. -DD Out I'm with you DD!!!
"He who gives up freedom for security deserves neither!" - -Ben Franklin (I think :confused: )
RTJas :D
[ March 25, 2003, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

[randy77zt]

in northern ca they closed the road on top of folsom dam.a nightmare for commutors in the area.it could be worse.

[KrazyKa]

RTJas - great quote and it's Jefferson.

[Rod-64]

I can't say how many time I tied up to the cable across Davis Dam (because that's where all the fish seem to be)....$25,000 fine? Screw the fish. Thanks for the heads-up Alan.

[Boatcop]

That 25Gs is the standard Federal fine for damaging or mooring to any Navigational Aid. It may seem excessive, but can you imagine the cost to replace, repair and/or re-set a buoy that's been dragged off station. Not to mention the impact if a ship or boat goes aground due to an off station aid? I did a lot of "buoy jumping" with the Coast Guard, and it's not easy (or cheap) work.
The yahoos who tied and rafted up to the cable 2 years ago, and drug it down cost the BOR over $15,000 to replace it.
The barricade at Parker won't exclude boats from any part of the River, that they haven't been restricted from before. It's going in ABOVE the "boats keep out" cable that's been there since the Dam was built.
While explosives placed on or near the dam, probably wouldn't do a whole lot of damage to the structure, inturupting the power grid would put all you SOCAL folks in the dark and thirsty for a very long time.
Since the threat last week on the Palo Verde Nuke plant (only 100 miles away), and the increased security there, we have to take all precautions in case a thwarted attacker were to seek another target of opportunity.
When you start to complain about some percieved loss of freedom due to terrorism, remember that we are at war, and that there are 350,000 of our citizens who are giving up their freedoms so that we can sustain ours.
I'd like to hear from even one person who's Constitutional rights have been infringed due to increased security or anti-terrorism efforts.

[FishBoneRipple III]

I do security work for a living, and have done security countermeasures implementation on 11 dams in the western US.
I cannot go into specifics but --
A vehicle load of explosives on top of a dam will do very little to the dam structure - no matter what kind of dam it is.
Log booms are there to delay an adversary from getting to certain dam assets - not necessarily the dam structure itself. It is also understood that you cannot prevent 100% of anything - only make it a more difficult target. Hopefully, the public, dam employees, or law enforcement personnel will see someone overtly attempting to circumvent the boom and the people will be stopped.
Going under the boom is not practical attack method - really - we've studied that scenario.
Lastly, Parker Dam is probably not on the top 10 list of anyone's targets. Damaging it really wouldn't make much of a "statement" in the way Hoover or Grand Coulee would .... or the Palo Verde power plant.

[Jordy]

Call me a selfish bastard if you want, but seeing Palo Verde on the news was a little too close to home for me. NYC was too close to home in the grand scheme of things, but it was a bit more than 50 miles away.

[Boater Bill]

jordanpaulk:
Call me a selfish bastard if you want, but seeing Palo Verde on the news was a little too close to home for me. NYC was too close to home in the grand scheme of things, but it was a bit more than 50 miles away. Dude, I live 5 miles away from San Onofre! I just laughed when the Feds sent me the letter saying potassium pills were avail to counteract radiation exposure. :p

[superdave013]

Boater Bill:
jordanpaulk:
Call me a selfish bastard if you want, but seeing Palo Verde on the news was a little too close to home for me. NYC was too close to home in the grand scheme of things, but it was a bit more than 50 miles away. Dude, I live 5 miles away from San Onofre! I just laughed when the Feds sent me the letter saying potassium pills were avail to counteract radiation exposure. :p LOL, I can see it now. Boater (glow in the dark with his potassium pills) Bill.

[Craig]

The Potasium Iodine pills they give out only block radiaoctive Iodine from collecting in the thyroid in event of a large radioactive release. If things got that bad, I wouldn't be worrying about my thyroid! With all of the measures they have out here at Palo Verde, I really can't see why terrorist would waste their time trying something here, outside of the media sensation they'd garner. It would really take something extrodinary to cause any "nuclear" type damage. I'd be more concerned at large gatherings at the stadiums and such.

[RiverToysJas]

Boatcop:
The barricade at Parker won't exclude boats from any part of the River, that they haven't been restricted from before. It's going in ABOVE the "boats keep out" cable that's been there since the Dam was built.The cable at Davis does restrict boats from the spillway where they used to be able to sit.
IMO, Choosing to give up freedom to fight in a war (our military is still volintary), is not the same as having it taken from you. I support our troops and this war 100%, my parents and grandparents fought for this country, and have the scars to prove it. That's not what my freedom comments were about.
RTJas :D

[hd&boatrider]

RiverToysJas:
Boatcop:
The barricade at Parker won't exclude boats from any part of the River, that they haven't been restricted from before. It's going in ABOVE the "boats keep out" cable that's been there since the Dam was built.The cable at Davis does restrict boats from the spillway where they used to be able to sit.
IMO, Choosing to give up freedom to fight in a war (our military is still volintary), is not the same as having it taken from you. I support our troops and this war 100%, my parents and grandparents fought for this country, and have the scars to prove it. That's not what my freedom comments were about.
RTJas :D I used to go right up to the dam and touch the fish jumping out of the water. Usually on the jet ski but you could also take your boat right up to it. It was kind of cool.

[FishBoneRipple III]

IMO, Choosing to give up freedom to fight in a war (our military is still volintary), is not the same as having it taken from you. I support our troops and this war 100%, my parents and grandparents fought for this country, and have the scars to prove it. That's not what my freedom comments were about.
The specific security enhancements at Parker Dam are part of Presidential Decision Directive 63, signed in 1998 by ----->>>>Bill Clinton.
As part of PDD63, and specifically because of the 9/11 attacks, the different divisions of the federal government are required to provide security enhancements for the assets for which they are responsible. In this case Parker Dam.
Since you were really non-specific about your objections to additional security, I fail to see what your freedom comments are about. Certainly, the log boom at the dam doesn't really deny you any freedom - does it?

[RiverToysJas]

hd&boatrider:
RiverToysJas:
Boatcop:
The barricade at Parker won't exclude boats from any part of the River, that they haven't been restricted from before. It's going in ABOVE the "boats keep out" cable that's been there since the Dam was built.The cable at Davis does restrict boats from the spillway where they used to be able to sit.
IMO, Choosing to give up freedom to fight in a war (our military is still volintary), is not the same as having it taken from you. I support our troops and this war 100%, my parents and grandparents fought for this country, and have the scars to prove it. That's not what my freedom comments were about.
RTJas :D I used to go right up to the dam and touch the fish jumping out of the water. Usually on the jet ski but you could also take your boat right up to it. It was kind of cool. For years you could drive right up with-in the three walls of the spill way, take refuge in the their shade, play your music, toss a football between boats, and just have a nice lazy time. There's no real current there to speak of since the water flow from the generators goes the out the other side. It was our favorite place to relax and talk with other boaters. Since 9/11, when they installed the rope across the river, not allowing any boats close to the dam, all of that went away and I have not boated the area since. Believe it or not, that rope actually played a part in our decision to buy a lake boat and abandon the river in that area all together. That was the best place to hang out on the river around Laughlin. Freedom lost? Depends how you look at it. This hasn't been a free country for a long long time. It's a country of laws. For better, or for worse, it's not for me to decide what's right for everyone and I don't want everyone deciding it for me. Personally I don't care for "feel good laws" and regulations that give us a false since of security and restrict our freedom. My feelings on this issue are not extreme and I do follow the rules and laws set down, I encourage others to also. I, like RD, wonder where it's all going lead us though. It's not a major issue with me, I just feel that I'd rather take care of myself and my family than have the government do it for me.
RTJas :D

[flat broke]

I really think that everyone is missing the sentiment of Dave and Jason's statment by focusing on the syntax. I don't think Dave or Jason are arguing that in this instance we have given up specific freedoms in exchange for security. I think the statements were basically made to illustrate that our nation has seen some changes both before and after 9/11. Freedoms are not exclusive to the rights spelled out in the constitution. As a nation we have consistently traded individual freedoms and liberties for security and equality. I'm not saying that is wrong, but it cannot be dennied. It has nothing to do with our activity in the gulf, just a commentary on how our nation has changed.
My .02
Chris

[RiverToysJas]

flat broke:
I really think that everyone is missing the sentiment of Dave and Jason's statment by focusing on the syntax. I don't think Dave or Jason are arguing that in this instance we have given up specific freedoms in exchange for security. I think the statements were basically made to illustrate that our nation has seen some changes both before and after 9/11. Freedoms are not exclusive to the rights spelled out in the constitution. As a nation we have consistently traded individual freedoms and liberties for security and equality. I'm not saying that is wrong, but it cannot be dennied. It has nothing to do with our activity in the gulf, just a commentary on how our nation has changed.
My .02
Chris At least someone gets it!!! wink

[Seadog]

As someone who has responsibilities for a dam and other facilities, I have seen a lot of things come down that affect what we do. Many of them make sense, but some are obvious dreamed up by people with little touch with reality or a one size fit all action. The problem is the lack of money to do the necessities and then being mandated to rob my maintenance budget. On a positive side, I have gotten approval for many improvements that I have been asking for since long before 9/11.

[CA Stu]

Boatcop:
I'd like to hear from even one person who's Constitutional rights have been infringed due to increased security or anti-terrorism efforts. What about my constitutional right to tow my boat across Parker Dam? Hang on, I now have the right to tow it 33 miles to get across the dam.. :D
CA Stu

[Jordy]

Come see the violence inherit in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!

[FishBoneRipple III]

Many of them make sense, but some are obvious dreamed up by people with little touch with reality or a one size fit all action. I have no doubt that's true. The method used to determine vulnerabilities at a dam is a process developed by one of the national laboratories. Unfortunately, the people who did the development are "propeller heads" as opposed to people who actually have designed or installed complex security enhancements.
Often the people doing the security assessments are dam or water engineers who can run the formal process, but have no idea what to do after that. The company I work for has a formal internal technical review process in which a co-worker and I do the final review and technical solutions for the dam engineers.
We both come from a DoD, DOE security background for protection of other types of national assets. We understand what is technologically feasible, what may require additional manpower, and what is just pure physical security (doors, gates, hinges, locks, barriers, etc.).
Security is a total package and we often see a client pulling out parts of the package to implement by themselves - we can't stop them from doing that. We can only try and make the point that using a single suggested security improvement doesn't necessarily increase security.
As always, some people get the concept, some people don't, while others do what's most convenient.

[Blown 472]

Pussy :D

[gigamurph]

I don't think it is about the infringement of our rights BC; but it is about changing some peoples' lifestyles and thinking. I think 9/11 was a serious wake-up call that we are not as invulnerable or invincible as we once thought ourselves. But, and not to start a debate because this is a boatinfg site and not a "political sounding forum", I believe that the terrorists were successful in doing what they set out to do; humiliate, demean, and deprive us of our "free" way of life! While many of us don't give these threats much thought, there are many Americans who are paralyzed with enough fear that they no longer live life as they could or should. Thus, I believe the terrorists have won this battle. But the war will go on and freedom shall prevail, God willing, and we will move forward to yet another challenge.
Oh; and BTW. Not to make light of this serious subject, BUT, I have a questionfor Boater Bill. Would you have laughed at the offer of potassium pills if they had been mixed with Viagra?