View Full Version : Fiberglass lay up Modern Boats
Do most of you think most modern boats are layed with the same resins, glass types and time in the mold?
theman
10-13-2002, 06:49 PM
WHY?
Havasu_Dreamin
10-13-2002, 07:21 PM
No, I don't.
stinger
10-13-2002, 07:44 PM
what do you want to know about lay ups?
rivercrazy
10-13-2002, 07:47 PM
What differentiates an excellent layup from a not so good one.
stinger
10-13-2002, 07:51 PM
what do you want to know about lay ups?
rivercrazy
10-13-2002, 08:04 PM
I would think that some of the better mfg's out there do some great things with glass and resin. Can you provide some basic info as to what techniques are required for good layup quality. As customers, we have all heard the normal sales pitches. Things like AME Vinylester resins, tri & quad axial braided glass, top grade coremat, balsa coring, hand layup, vacuum bagging, etc etc. It would help to know why these materials are better and what techniques produce the best results
OK Howard says they keep thier boat in the mold for weeks before removing. Is this normal?
Charley
10-14-2002, 01:56 PM
everyone leaves them in for weeks..... like .3 weeks .7 weeks hehehe
theman
10-14-2002, 03:19 PM
NOT ALL MANUFACTURES LEAVE THERE BOATS IN FOR WEEKS MOST OF THEM DONT ITS MORE LIKE A WEEK SOME ONLY 3 DAYS
stinger
10-14-2002, 03:36 PM
most manufacturers do it this way. 1 day to gelcoat, 1day to laminate, 1 day to lay stringers and flooring, then pull the boat the next day. if they leave it in for a week or more as they are telling you then they are lieing to you.
stinger
10-14-2002, 03:37 PM
most manufacturers do it this way. 1 day to gelcoat, 1day to laminate, 1 day to lay stringers and flooring, then pull the boat the next day. if they leave it in for a week or more as they are telling you then they are lieing to you.
theman
10-14-2002, 03:41 PM
FINALLY SOMEONE HERE AGREES WITH ME LOL
Ok when I go to the boat show they all will say they lay the fiberglass, wood, bi, tri, and what ever else different than the competitors in making the hull. Is this all BS and just a sales pitch.!!
Charley
10-15-2002, 07:49 AM
TCHB:
Ok when I go to the boat show they all will say they lay the fiberglass, wood, bi, tri, and what ever else different than the competitors in making the hull. Is this all BS and just a sales pitch.!!no no no..... each company lays boats up differently..... if you really want to know if some one is BS-ing you, become educated and ask questions..... in fact you can even become educated at the boat shows! ask if thats the best resin on the market and why etc..... you can usually find out pretty quick if someone is full of BS by asking LOTS of questions!
RiverToysJas
10-15-2002, 09:23 AM
stinger:
most manufacturers do it this way.....if they leave it in for a week or more as they are telling you then they are lieing to you.I know for a fact that my Lavey was in the mold for a total of 9 days.
NO, not all builders are the same and not all are using the same materials and resins. For the most part, you get what you pay for.
RTJas :D
lakesmodified
10-15-2002, 09:31 AM
I really don't know of any manufacturer that actually Vacuum bags their hull, but that would produce the strongest and lightest hull! You could build a heavyer hull that wouldn't compare to the strength of the lighter hull that was built using the vacuum method. This is the process that used in the aerospace field, and it produces the strongest product. By vacuum bagging, you remove all the voids(air, excess resin)that are present in every glass layup. I would imagine that some of the higher dollar race boats are produced using this process.
[ October 15, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: lakesmodified ]
Havasu_Dreamin
10-15-2002, 09:44 AM
lakesmodified:
I really don't know of any manufacturer that actually Vacuum bags their hullRTJas would know for sure, but my understanding is that Lavey Craft vacuum bags their hulls. My boat was in the mold for 10 days.
[ October 15, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Havasu_Dreamin ]
Charley:
everyone leaves them in for weeks..... like .3 weeks .7 weeks heheheLMAO!!!
rivercrazy
10-15-2002, 04:07 PM
I have also heard that Lavey vaccum bags. However only their larger models of 27 feet and up.
Havasu Cig
10-15-2002, 04:13 PM
lakesmodified:
I really don't know of any manufacturer that actually Vacuum bags their hull, but that would produce the strongest and lightest hull! You could build a heavyer hull that wouldn't compare to the strength of the lighter hull that was built using the vacuum method. This is the process that used in the aerospace field, and it produces the strongest product. By vacuum bagging, you remove all the voids(air, excess resin)that are present in every glass layup. I would imagine that some of the higher dollar race boats are produced using this process.I know Cigarette and Skater do....I also know of some West Coast builders that claim to Vacuum Bag their hulls that don't. That is B.S. if somebody is paying for a Vacuum Bagged hull that isn't.
We have a lot of posts now but not much data on the lay up proces and is it pretty close to the same. I have been to Advantage and did not see a vaccuum system. They said they used the best materials just like everyone else. I did a little research and found out the key is how the matt is layed and in what direction. The type of matt will also change the boat cell structure. Boats that use bolsa core will b stronger and lighter. Only the high dollar boats use the bolsa core in production of the hulls.
beached1
10-16-2002, 05:14 AM
I don't know if they would do this but If I were considering a new boat, I would ask for a grand tour of the whole proccess. Start to finish on how they build their boats. I would like to see how they lay up the hull, Gelcoat, rig, and so on.
Then I'd say, "Cool, thanks. I'm gonna go over and tell Commander how to build my boat now."
:D
Laveyman
10-16-2002, 05:55 AM
Lavey DOES vacuum bag every boat 27 foot and above. On average, Lavey typically keeps a boat in the mold for 6-10 days, especially the hull. Their hull and deck molds are keyed to make sure they fit together perfectly every time. While both pieces are still in the mold, they are glassed together, and THEN both are popped out. Takes a bit longer, but well worth the wait.
Any builder who is upfront will welcome you into their factory at any time. You can then see first hand their layup schedule and how long your boat is in the mold.
RiverToysJas
10-16-2002, 09:14 AM
The 27 Cat and 29 V are both vacuum bagged, standard at Lavey.
The 2750 V-bottom used to come standard vacuum bagged but they found that most people are storing and using this hull at the river and lake Havasu. Lavey determined that vacuum bagging was over-kill for a lake boat. If someone wants a bagged 2750 for ocean use or just to have stronger boat, it's an option.
I watched them bagging a hull a couple of weeks ago, it was pretty cool.
RTJas :D
Havasu_Dreamin
10-16-2002, 09:53 AM
beached1:
I don't know if they would do this but If I were considering a new boat, I would ask for a grand tour of the whole proccess. Start to finish on how they build their boats. I would like to see how they lay up the hull, Gelcoat, rig, and so on.
Then I'd say, "Cool, thanks. I'm gonna go over and tell Commander how to build my boat now."
:D Any reputable builder will GLADLY walk you thru the process. I know I saw exactly how everything was done prior to ordering my Essex.
Froggystyle
10-16-2002, 04:40 PM
The thing is you have to separate fact from USP's (Unique selling points).
A common marketing practice is to do something different from your competition to separate yourselves from them. This is a USP. I know Lavey leaves their boats in the molds for 6-10 days, and Howard claims the same. I would say that this is true in these cases. I question why though.
Lavey also builds the whole boat while in the mold, and "keys" keys them together for alignment. This in theory seems good as well.
Howard claims that no boat leaves the mold for two weeks after spraying. I believe Gene.
This all said, I have a theory. I looked at the floor space at Howard, and the number of boats built and feel that it would economize their space well to have a rolling dolly to build a boat in. It makes sense to leave it in the mold in this case. Same with Lavey. With the volume requirements of their production and sales, they have no need to pull them, and it actually probably protects the mold to a certain degree. I also have seen the number of people building each boat. I saw two people at Lavey, and one at Howard actually building or laminating (rigging aside). This tells me it probably takes them longer to get through the build phase than someone with four to six people laminating, cutting wood, fitting, etc, who is able to construct a boat in one day.
The bottom line is this. Ask why they are taking that long, and whatever inadequacies they are trying to prevent with the extra time, and go see if their competition is suffering from the lack of time in the mold. I think you will find the finish and smoothness of both manufacturers to be essentially the same as anyone building a top quality boat, which is a broad list.
In addition, like I have said before, ask yourself how it impacts you, and whether or not this USP is worth any extra dollars it may end up costing you.
I have seen a builder regale the use of convoluted tubing in their wiring harnesses as a USP. The top manufacturers dont use it because it retains moisture, and will corrode connections faster than a wiring harness that is combed and tied.
It sure is pretty though!
Squirts up.
KCook
10-16-2002, 09:16 PM
Froggystyle - Me confused. I wouldn't expect time in the mold to affect "finish and smoothness" in the first place. I thought this was done for greater dimensional accuracy and stability.
The volume production outfits pop 'em out in a matter of hours, not days. Is this Ok?
Kelly Cook
Chestah Cheetah
10-16-2002, 09:50 PM
KCook:
I wouldn't expect time in the mold to affect "finish and smoothness" in the first place.I think hull integrity and even curing would be bigger concern. Ever seen and felt the side of a hull thats uneven/soft?
Froggystyle
10-16-2002, 09:51 PM
Matter of fact, some of the production outfits (I hate to say this, but Bayliner particularly) have one up on custom, in that they actually use a gimble for their molds so that they can lay up the sides flat and not get any pooling of resin at all due to gravity. Neccessary because of the chopper gun construction, but nonetheless trick.
You are right about dimensional accuracy and stability, but for different reasons. Some claim that by adding the wood to the hull while in the mold, you reduce the amount of "pulling" that the bulkheads do when drying. This is what I mean by smoothness. When the two parts expand and contract during application and curing, you can get these pull marks that result in a small, visible crease line on the outside. Look around the boat show next time, and try to see if you can spot where the bulkheads are from the outside. Most top manufacturers, regardless of time in the mold will not have these visible traces of contraction. In addition, I don't see how contraction could be prevented by the mold not allowing expansion, but whatever. By the way, this is harder to prevent on large, flat panels on boats, as they are inherently muchweaker anyway than curved or featured panels, but infinitely easier and cheaper to tool. Beware of featureless panels... look for the curves. (try to bend a flat piece of paper compared to one with a curve or crease and you will see what I mean)
Regarding how long they are in the mold, for a minimum time... one word. Barcol.
This tool, the Barcol meter will tell you when the fiberglass resin is completely cured. Two minutes longer than cured is still cured, as is two weeks.
I would say that if your manufacturer was having consistent problems with warping or deformations without assembling the hull before removal, then yes, construction in the mold is a good solution. If the hull is inherently strong enough to survive and flourish without all of it's internal bracing, then that will be fine too.
It is really tough to find a poorly constructed California custom boat these days. They are out there, but are easy to spot because of retail prices that are less than the top manufacturers costs alone. Corners are being cut, and billet is only so expensive. You are probably missing some good 'glass somewhere.
This is merely my opinion on the subject BTW. I by no means consider myself an expert at fiberglass hull construction, but I do find myself relatively knowledgeable with regard to picking apart salesmen!
KCook
10-16-2002, 10:17 PM
Thanks Froggystyle. Good food for thought. Chomp, chomp, chomp ....
Kelly
rivercrazy
10-17-2002, 07:57 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Froggystyle:
[QB]
It is really tough to find a poorly constructed California custom boat these days. They are out there, but are easy to spot because of retail prices that are less than the top manufacturers costs alone. Corners are being cut, and billet is only so expensive. You are probably missing some good 'glass somewhere.
Couldn't agree with ya more on that Froggy. You get what you pay for! :D
I was employed by 'eliminator boats and when the lay-up was compl. the hull/cap layed in the mold for aprox. a week before it was pulled . The part would stay outside in the elements morning noon and night through cooling and hight temps. The reason for the resting period is for structureability ,... that is why sometimes you might see a tonneau cover warped the reason behind that is because it was pulled prematurly , so when the guy goes to havasu and its 385 degrees on the surface the materials reform and become less rigid.
OH YEAH!!! I also worked for STOCKLAND fiberglass prod.
KCook
10-18-2002, 07:43 AM
Huh? I had heard from a builder that leaving the mold with the hull still in it out in the hot sun was real bad mojo?!?! Don't think the post above is one that I would want to hear as an Eliminator shopper.
Kelly
fear the turtle
10-18-2002, 09:36 AM
It is really tough to find a poorly constructed California custom boat these days. They are out there, but are easy to spot because of retail prices that are less than the top manufacturers costs alone. Corners are being cut, and billet is only so expensive. You are probably missing some good 'glass somewhere Just curious, if this has any relationship to why Kachina boats don't get to much "love" on these boards. There boats seem to be a little lighter then what they should be for a boat of it's sizes. And slower....I don't own one, but have looked into them as a possible future boat. Would like to know if Kachina could be one of the lesser builders described above?
Hermosa
10-18-2002, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Froggystyle:
Some claim that by adding the wood to the hull while in the mold, you reduce the amount of "pulling" that the bulkheads do when drying. This is what I mean by smoothness. When the two parts expand and contract during application and curing, you can get these pull marks that result in a small, visible crease line on the outside. Look around the boat show next time, and try to see if you can spot where the bulkheads are from the outside. Most top manufacturers, regardless of time in the mold will not have these visible traces of contraction. In addition, I don't see how contraction could be prevented by the mold not allowing expansion, but whatever. By the way, this is harder to prevent on large, flat panels on boats, as they are inherently muchweaker anyway than curved or featured panels, but infinitely easier and cheaper to tool. Beware of featureless panels... look for the curves. (try to bend a flat piece of paper compared to one with a curve or crease and you will see what I mean)
I ordered a new Eliminator Daytona a couple years ago that was so wavey, it would make you sick looking down the side of it. You could see every place they had glassed wood to the side for the tanks and bulkhead, it was terrible. You could also see the fiberglass mat pattern througout the boat, just a bad job all around. They decided to layup another hull for me since the 1st on was junk. The 2nd one didn't look as bad, but teh gel coat work was terrible, I could do better fades with a spray can from Pep boys. The 3rd hull was a charm, was fairly happy with it. It was a legal nightmare, but it finally was finished.
Froggystyle
10-18-2002, 11:28 AM
Sorry to hear about that Hermosa. Bad boats happen to good people wink
At least you are in a good one now. That is the most important thing.
Regarding Kachina... I know Louie is a good guy, and wants to do things well for his customers, and I have heard of great things regarding his customer service from day one.
Saying that though, I don't think the actual boat is quite up to the quality level of some of the others on the market, and they are indeed less out the door than some of their competitors cost prices... with the same power... and that just doesn't add up.
Bang on the side, check for waves, ask happy or unhappy customers what they think. Do you like double stitched and quilted interiors? Some do. A Kachina may be the perfect boat for you if you don't plan on heavy, extended use and want a bigger boat than you can currently afford.
You know the old saying... there is an ass for every seat!
Hermosa
10-18-2002, 12:02 PM
I agree, even good manufacturers sometimes have a bad boat, or something to that extent. I still think it's hard to beat a custom made West Coast boat over a production style boat (I'm talking runabout style boat here), not the big boys. Anyhow, I think the quality just keeps getting better with the competition, that's good for all of us.
fear the turtle
10-18-2002, 01:11 PM
Yeah, I noticed some of there interiors looked kind of cheesy. And then other times I'm kind of like, does it really need to be the best, undestructible boat or just a safe capable boat?
Just always wondered what was up with Kachina....3000lbs for a 23ft v bottom just never really added up to me. Seemed to light, maybe it's not. I actually like the Ultra and Essex better.
Do you know if Kachina had the same reputation with there old jet boats? Which is more realistic of what my next boat will be. Provided I can ever find the right deal with a closed engine (no if's and's or but's the wife won't even look if anything is sticking out that the kids can get burned on or hurt on) :D
BTW - you have a very nice ride. That neon light on the purple carpet in the pictures looks very sweet.
25Elmn8r
10-18-2002, 03:37 PM
FTT, I don't know about Kachina's new bigger boats, but I just sold a 93 20' jet that was as solid as the rest out there. The rigging wasn't that great, but all in all it was a great boat.
sandblasted
10-18-2002, 07:12 PM
My brother-in-law has a 1978 Hawaiian with the original hull...Just a few stress cracks. Several months ago "oldrigger" said Hawaiian was busting out about a boat a day in the late 70's..
Now it stands to reason that if mid 70's hulls pushed out of a mold in 1 day are still holding up to a pounding then modern hulls will last just as long, if not longer..
Really, it seems like a sales pitch to me...I'm sure even a low end custom boat like Cheetah or Aftershock hull will last longer than an old Hawaiian, Bahner, Charger or Tahiti..
but I could be wrong... :D
RiverForUs
10-19-2002, 10:41 PM
sandblasted:
...I'm sure even a low end custom boat like Cheetah or Aftershock hull....I can't believe it's been over 24 hours and there's no response to this! :D
The 24Rod's must be out of town or something.
I'm putting the popcorn in the microwave right now.
roln 20s
10-20-2002, 09:05 PM
TCHB,
Here is what was on the Howard Boats site about lay-up!1. Where is the fiberglass lamination done (where is the boat actually built)?
Ours is done in our own "on premise" glass shop. This insures that only the finest in quality, materials and labor go into your new Howard Custom Boat.
2. How is the boat built?
All of our boats are 100% hand laid utilizing vinyl-ester resin, Bi & Tri Directional glass and Baltek cored hulls and decks. Our plywood is the highest marine grade available.
3. How long does the boat stay in the mold?
Every Howard Custom Boat is left in the mold for two weeks allowing for proper curing and lamination time. This insures that both maximum hull strength and integrity are achieved.
4. How many stringers are used?
We use 4; full length glue-laminated marine plywood stringers encapsulated in fiberglass.
5. Are the floors, seat bases and sundecks made of wood or fiberglass?
We use only fiberglass. This insures maximum strength and longevity as opposed to wood which has the potential to rot and work itself loose. Our floors have molded-in ski lockers and ice chests.
I have watched their process, very professional and precise. Great thing to watch when they pull a hull out of the mold.
Hopefully this helps!
Roln 20s
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