Froggystyle RE: stereo battery [Archive]

Coach

01-22-2003, 10:16 PM

I was reading about your stereo set-up, specifically your battery set up and had a few questions. Are you running 2- 6 amp golf cart batteries in series? How do you go about charging your batteries each night? I am looking into doing something like that, but I leave my boat in the water (anchored on the beach) and wouldn't trust running an extension cord into my boat to charge the batteries. I saw the other option on this site that had both batteries on a switch so the alt could charge either sets of batteries (2 starting and 2 golf cart). What recommendations would you make?
[ January 22, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Coach ]

HOOTER SLED-

01-23-2003, 07:26 AM

I'm also interested in this. Series increases the amperage not the voltage, correct?? Are there any diagrams to show the wiring for this? I would like to hook these up to a switch to go back and forth from the engine batteries to the stereo batteries. Is this possible?

Nubbs

01-23-2003, 07:49 AM

HOOTER SLED-:
Series increases the amperage not the voltage, correct?? Series increases the voltage. Parallel increases the current.

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 09:16 AM

I am running, specifically...
2) 12 volt Marine deep cycle Trojan batteries for my engine systems, and basically everything stock on the boat, as well as the neon.
4) 6 Volt Trojan T-106 Golf Cart deep cycles. These batteries are running huge figures on reserve capacity, and have proven to run for a whole day/night without needing a charge.
Philosophy: I wanted my starting batteries to have no draw except mandatories, so I isolated them by only having them start the boat and run boat related systems. They are on a Perko switch, so I can run either or both for this purpose. My motor is highish compression, and I have run into a starting issue every single time I ran a sandbar for more than an hour before this configuration (2 Interstates were not cutting it) In addition, once voltage was below 10 volts, my Motorola alternator saw a fault in the system and would not charge, so it made it twice as bad. In fact, my stereo could prevent the motor from firing if it was played while travelling in this situation because of the MSD ignition's draw.
To rectify this, I got the Trojans for one, which have proven to be superior batteries all around. Second, I began to run the four 6 volts, running two pairs in series, and then the two pairs in parallel (see diagram). This is a true stand alone system, providing power only to the amps and stereo. Neon is not on this system, as I didn't want lights dimming when the bass hit (which happens)
Charging: My style of river running precludes the need to run a charging system for the four stereo batteries. My M.O. is usually to get in, idle for 2 or three minutes to get oil temp up a little and hammer down for 7-15 minutes to get to either a sandbar or bar. I sit there for 6 hours bumpin and draining batteries, and then drive 7-15 minutes back. I clean the boat for the evening, and then take off around 10:00 pm for the night evolution which requires a 10 minute cruise up river, and a 3 hour float down river... followed by another 10 minutes of running. So, doing the math: A maximum of 50 minutes of broken up charging... and 9 hours of stereo crushing 75 amp draw max battery use. NO charging system in the boat will allow me to be topped off by the end of the night, ready for the morning. So, I needed a serious charge overnight. Also keep in mind, four huge batteries divide the charge between them, so it is important to have the charge from "both ends" of the rig, so that no one battery gets charged more than another. (Having the current have to go through every battery physically, not by cables)
What I bought was a Sears fully automatic battery charger that charges at 60 amps. That is 15 amps per battery, and takes about 5 hours to top off from a long day out. I imagine it could run off of a generator, but it would have to be one that could turn 35 amps (there is a step-up going from AC to DC... I don't know the specs)
I have been very pleased with the result. The stereo plays all day, and it charges automatically at night. I have a large 100 ft ship to shore cable that occasionally has gotten wet in the middle charging from a pier or whatever, but no real problems. For the most part, I just pull it out and plug it in. Sandbar music all day is worth it!
Diagrams and pics to follow...

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 09:17 AM

Nubbs:
Series increases the voltage. Parallel increases the current. "Boys have a penis... girls have a virgina"
[ January 23, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

MsHotCrusader

01-23-2003, 09:30 AM

CAN WE ALL SAY, 'THE SHIT'!!!!
HC and I got a chance to check out his system. Very, very nice/clean set up and even sounds good too wink
This man knows his shit. Keep it rolling Froggy!

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 10:08 AM

Thanks MS HotC...
Here is the pics.
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/battery_pics.jpg
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/battery_diagram.jpg
As you can see, the batteries are wired in series, then in parallel. To describe, please note the different colors on the battery drawing and letters/numbers circled....
Consider only batteries 1 and 2 for now. The negative from #1 is negative. The Positive from #1 is positive, but it is linked to the negative from #2 by the blue wire. Think of this as a jumper wire. #2 has negs and positive, but the only one we are concerned with is the positive, as the negative is jumped to #1. Now... Think of these two as one battery. This one battery, made up of two 6 volts is a 12 volt battery. "A" and "B" are the terminals of this 12 Volt Battery.
Do the same to Batteries "3" and "4". Now you have two 12 Volt Batteries essentially. When Battery "1/2" is wired in parallel with "3/4" (Positive to positive, neg to neg) you get a 12 Volt battery with twice the amperage (what I needed) If you were to run them in series, you would get 24 Volts, but the same amperage as each 12 volt. (Nubbs was right on...)
Since I needed 12 volts to the stereo, I ran them parallel, and you can see the wiring between terminals "A" and "C" for negative, and "B" and "D" for positive, both of which go to the stereo load, and is the proper location for charging the system. If you were to charge from "A" and "D", you would charge it properly that way as well. What wouldn't work right would be to charge from "C" and "D" for example. Batteries "3" and "4" would get all the power, and until they were topped all the way off, Batteries "1" and "2" would be neglected, as the current would travel straight into the batteries they were attached through.
Did I lose anyone?
So in synopsis... you charge off of "B" and "C", not off "C" and "D", and with the battery terminal "AB" giving you 12V, you can apply Preparation "H" to [i]Midas 22[i] and make One Billion Trillion Gazillion Boop Bop Verzillion Gillion..... yen.
[ January 23, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

Ultra21

01-23-2003, 12:05 PM

Another option to the charging thing. I run two Optima's on mine with a Honda 1100 Watt generator which exhausts out the rear of the boat. It's connected to a battery minder which I've run all day (6 hours) without draining to the point of not being able to start. Last summer I was having distributor problems so didn't want to run the boat much and just sat in a cove providing the stereo. Can't hear the generator at all and I have 1300 watts powering 2 12" subs and 8 6x9's. The generator is about the size of a 5 gallon gas can. I can provide details and pictures if interested.

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 12:10 PM

Please do!

Nubbs

01-23-2003, 01:01 PM

Since I needed 12 volts to the stereo, I ran them parallel, and you can see the wiring between terminals "A" and "C" for negative, and "B" and "D" for positive, both of which go to the stereo load, and is the proper location for charging the system. If you were to charge from "A" and "D", you would charge it properly that way as well. What wouldn't work right would be to charge from "C" and "D" for example. Batteries "3" and "4" would get all the power, and until they were topped all the way off, Batteries "1" and "2" would be neglected, as the current would travel straight into the batteries they were attached through.
Did I lose anyone? Yes you did. It shouldn't matter what terminals you charge from, as long as you go across 12 volts. You can charge from AB, AD, CD, CB, or the +/- leads to the stereo equipment. Why do you say you must charge off BC?

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 01:09 PM

Because the electricity generated by the charger is going to take the shortest path, or the path with the least resistance. If you plug it in to B/C, the negative has to go all the way through all four batteries before it can meet with the positive. Same with the positive. The charge meets right in the middle, and all four batteries get an even charge. If you go the other way I showed that was acceptable, it will do the same thing. Any other way is going to charge one group more than the other, and will result in decreased performance from one set of batteries, which over time will cause premature failure.
All four start out the same, and all four, if drawn from and charged the same will remain essentially identical and have matched potential.
It is a tough explanation, but imagine what the elecricity if more likely to do... go into a battery, or go into a cable then the battery. By splitting the charge and draw like I showed you, you are forcing the charge to go all the way through all of the batteries...

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 01:12 PM

I just made it a little easier. Go from the "B" terminal, and trace the positive lead through batteries until you get to "C" Then, trace the negative both ways until you get to "B". They are the same distance and resistance from each other. Each has two batteries in the middle, each way.
I went so far as to cut all of my jumper leads identically in length, solder the ends and measure resistance to make sure it would work properly. Even at my highest draw/discharge ever, every one of the cells was identical on a hydrometer. So... it works.

Nubbs

01-23-2003, 01:22 PM

I think I know what you're getting at. The resistance of the wires will alter the charging characteristics? Would you agree with me in saying that if the wires had a resistance of 0 ohms, you could charge off any combination as long as you were across 12 volts? Check out this table for wire resistance. wire resistance (http://www.paigewire.com/copperAWG.htm)
Your resistance through the wires is negligible and you should get the same results from either charging combo: AB AD CD CB. :p

Nubbs

01-23-2003, 01:24 PM

I missed your previous post while I was writting my last post. It sounds like we're thinking the same thing here.

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 01:30 PM

I ruined a very expensive SVR stereo battery on my old truck because of this exact problem One was doing all of the drawing, and the charging. I figured... "I have 0 gauge wire, there can't be a drop in resistance..." which at zero amps is true. My cables have zero ohms of resistance at rest. Throw 70 amps through it though and you see some serious resistance figures pop up, and that becomes the problem.
Wes

Steamin' Rice

01-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Froggy,
Great explanation, everything you listed makes sense and it looks like you have your system figured out.....
One question: Where did you find the golf cart to steal the batteries from?? :D :D

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 02:33 PM

I had to find four...

Steamin' Rice

01-23-2003, 02:42 PM

That would explain why these guys are looking for you.. :D
http://www.securitymanagement.com/seminar_2002/151.jpg

Coach

01-23-2003, 02:46 PM

Thanks for all the detail!!!! I am looking to run just two of the golf cart batteries. I would run them in series so they can draw 12 V, right? Would it be worth it to put a volt meter on the system? How low can you drain the batteries before they stereo will stop working? Did you make the bracket that is holding your batteries? Very Clean!!!
Ultra 21 post some pics of your system. I really want to see this generator. I am hesitant of running a long exention cord 150+ feet over the water overnight.

Lightning

01-23-2003, 02:53 PM

Coach:
Thanks for all the detail!!!! I am looking to run just two of the golf cart batteries. I would run them in series so they can draw 12 V, right? Would it be worth it to put a volt meter on the system? How low can you drain the batteries before they stereo will stop working? Did you make the bracket that is holding your batteries? Very Clean!!! Coach,
That is the setup I used in my Ultra; Wes actually did all install work for me and did a killer job. I don't know if you saw the thread from a couple of days ago, it has some good photos of my setup. If you'd like a link, here it is (http://free.***boat.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000752) .
[ January 23, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Lightning ]

Coach

01-23-2003, 03:08 PM

Lightning-
Your set up is what has got me interested in all this battery talk. It appears to me that use are using the Switch to charge both the Deep Cycle and the Golf Cart batteries w/ the alt. This seems like it would be the ideal set up for me while at the river. Then I can charge the cells at home the rest of the time. As you can see is there any draw back?

Coach

01-23-2003, 03:10 PM

A few more questions Lightning. Did you make custom boxes for the batteries? And what charging unit are you using in the boat?

Lightning

01-23-2003, 03:24 PM

Coach:
Lightning-
Your set up is what has got me interested in all this battery talk. It appears to me that use are using the Switch to charge both the Deep Cycle and the Golf Cart batteries w/ the alt. This seems like it would be the ideal set up for me while at the river. Then I can charge the cells at home the rest of the time. As you can see is there any draw back? Actually, the primary source of charging the batteries is not the alternator. My river going situation allows me to plug in a charger relatively easily to the batteries at the end of the day. You would have to have a monster alternator to fully charge those batteries and the starting batteries efficiently at the same time.
I did not make the "custom" boxes for the batteries, I bought it at the the place I purchased my batteries.
As far as a charging unit for the boat, I use a Fully Automatic charger from Sears. The same one that Wes mentioned above which charges at 60 amps. It's the type that you can wheel around, not the dinky one that is about the size of a shoe box. If you go to any Sears and look at the charger display, its the one on the far right of the display. Cost is $200+. Let me know if you have any other questions.

woodster

01-23-2003, 03:27 PM

Lightning or Froggy where did u guys purchase your batteries from?Also wheres a good place to buy wiring at besides the big stero stores?Also what kind of lights did u use in your boat?
[ January 23, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: woodster ]

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 04:49 PM

woodster:
Lightning or Froggy where did u guys purchase your batteries from?Also wheres a good place to buy wiring at besides the big stero stores?Also what kind of lights did u use in your boat? Are you asking who does wiring? If so I highly recommend me. wink
If you meant where to purchase retail, I don't have a preference. I buy all my wire in bulk through a wholesaler because of the amount I go through with my business.
Batteries were purchased at Sunbelt battery on Magnolia in El Cajon. Ask for Shane, and tell him I sent you for a seriously homey hookup price.

Froggystyle

01-23-2003, 04:54 PM

Coach:
Thanks for all the detail!!!! I am looking to run just two of the golf cart batteries. I would run them in series so they can draw 12 V, right? [/b]
Correct.
Would it be worth it to put a volt meter on the system?
[/b]
I would, I did, and I have.
How low can you drain the batteries before they stereo will stop working? [/b]
Depends on the components. Most top end ones will clip before they do damage. Most lower end ones will keep on making noise until you create distortion by square-waving the signal and smoke some tweeters. I don't run mine below 10.5 That being said, I have never seen below 11.3 with it unless the bass hits, which causes a drop. Either way, it is a little above 11 most of the time.
Did you make the bracket that is holding your batteries? Very Clean!!![/b]
Thank you. Yes, I made it to fit the install and all four batteries.
[ January 23, 2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

Ultra21

01-25-2003, 11:09 AM

I tried to post a pic of my generator and charging setup but FAILED meserably. I am not worthy! The pics are in the Jet boat reader rides. You can use search word "generator". Sorry! I did everything I was told but when I right clicked on the picture (looking for "preferences") it wasn't an option. Everything else gave me the dreaded red X. Here's one last try.
http://free.***boat.net/cgi-bin/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Gearhead_Garage/Other_Equipment&image=generator_setup1.JPG&img=&tt=
oh well :confused:

Party Cat

01-25-2003, 12:08 PM

Here ya go.....
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/Boat2_001.JPG

Party Cat

01-25-2003, 12:10 PM

Here's the other pic....
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/generator_setup.JPG

woodster

01-25-2003, 12:21 PM

Dude that flame arrestor is sweet.. Where did you get that from?

Ultra21

01-25-2003, 12:30 PM

Thanks Party Cat! What was the trick? I powder coated the flame arrester in my garage. First polished it and then masked it with high temp tape and powdered it with the magenta then clear.

Ultra21

01-25-2003, 12:33 PM

The bottom pic is the battery minder. I keep it pluged it in all winter to keep everything up and running. Always ready to go.

BoatFloating

01-28-2003, 12:37 PM

Froggy, maybe you can help a brother out. This is what I'm running.
2 Delco's 30 series on #1 switch for boat
2 Yellow Optima's #2 switch for stereo
Stock 65 amp alt
I run a isolater so it charges weakest batteries first (in theory)
I run the battery switch in the #2 position all weekend so it charges just stereo batteries. I never have a problem with Delco's running down. But as you know the Optima's can't keep up with stereo use.
I have 4 JL 10's and 10 Eclipse Point Source 6's with tweets. Running 5 Crossfire amps and a Phoenix Gold Distribution center which has 15 farads built in.
So here is my idea replace Optima's and run 2 6v batteries for stereo that will charge off Alt (somewhat). Then when done for day put it on 50 amp battery charger at night. Do you think this will help or worsten stitution???????

Froggystyle

01-28-2003, 12:55 PM

BoatFloating:
Froggy, maybe you can help a brother out. This is what I'm running.
2 Delco's 30 series on #1 switch for boat
2 Yellow Optima's #2 switch for stereo
Stock 65 amp alt
I run a isolater so it charges weakest batteries first (in theory)
I run the battery switch in the #2 position all weekend so it charges just stereo batteries. I never have a problem with Delco's running down. But as you know the Optima's can't keep up with stereo use.
I have 4 JL 10's and 10 Eclipse Point Source 6's with tweets. Running 5 Crossfire amps and a Phoenix Gold Distribution center which has 15 farads built in.
So here is my idea replace Optima's and run 2 6v batteries for stereo that will charge off Alt (somewhat). Then when done for day put it on 50 amp battery charger at night. Do you think this will help or worsten stitution??????? I think it will be perfect. It will act as one battery in this case.
Let me know if you need any help with schematics or anything.

HOOTER SLED-

01-28-2003, 01:59 PM

MY head is spinning!! So much info. But I think I can figure it out. Hey Froggy and Lightning, thanks for all the info. I'm sure everyone interested in doing the same(including myself) really appreciates the time you spent explaining everything. You guys got some bitchen set-ups. Just curious Froggy, what's the ballpark cost on a set-up like this? Materials and labor. Batteries, wiring, your time. Thanks again, you the man.
Jason

ROZ

01-28-2003, 02:11 PM

BF, How may amps of current are you pulling? 5 amplifiers right? You may have the ability to pull 2x as much curreent as Froggy with 1/2 as much reserve by going with 6v x 2 while trying to stay above 11 volts...Seems like you may need to run a 4 battery layout like the Froggman's in order to maintain 1/2 the playtime that froggy has.....If infact you pull 2x as much current, that is.
Just the .02
Chris

BoatFloating

01-28-2003, 02:16 PM

Froggystyle:
BoatFloating:
Froggy, maybe you can help a brother out. This is what I'm running.
2 Delco's 30 series on #1 switch for boat
2 Yellow Optima's #2 switch for stereo
Stock 65 amp alt
I run a isolater so it charges weakest batteries first (in theory)
I run the battery switch in the #2 position all weekend so it charges just stereo batteries. I never have a problem with Delco's running down. But as you know the Optima's can't keep up with stereo use.
I have 4 JL 10's and 10 Eclipse Point Source 6's with tweets. Running 5 Crossfire amps and a Phoenix Gold Distribution center which has 15 farads built in.
So here is my idea replace Optima's and run 2 6v batteries for stereo that will charge off Alt (somewhat). Then when done for day put it on 50 amp battery charger at night. Do you think this will help or worsten stitution??????? I think it will be perfect. It will act as one battery in this case.
Let me know if you need any help with schematics or anything. Wes,
Is the (2) 6 volts as good as 2 Optima's for total playing time. I do understand the whole 6/12v thing but I'm trying not to put 6 batteries in boat, i got enough weight already. If you could email me schematics would be great. I did wire my motorhome with 2 6v but I didn't have stereo going to it. So I want to make sure I wire it correctly. If you are every in Poway and looking for Frozen Pizza (major brand that you see in stores) let me know and I'll hook ya up!!!!

BoatFloating

01-28-2003, 02:35 PM

ROZ:
BF, How may amps of current are you pulling? 5 amplifiers right? You may have the ability to pull 2x as much curreent as Froggy with 1/2 as much reserve by going with 6v x 2 while trying to stay above 11 volts...Seems like you may need to run a 4 battery layout like the Froggman's in order to maintain 1/2 the playtime that froggy has.....If infact you pull 2x as much current, that is.
Just the .02
Chris Chris, shit I have no idea how many amps I'm pulling. All I know is I turn it on and crank it and it can play for about 3 hours and the stereo batteries are done. And there is no way the Alt. can get them back up. We do run up to the gorge and that helps charge them a little. So I wonder if I could keep the Optima's and add 2 6v also. What would this do? Dam! Froggy I might be bigger but he goes longer. jawdrop
Chris thanks for your info and help. I still need to figure out the best way to go with batteries.

Lightning

01-28-2003, 02:49 PM

HOOTER SLED-:
MY head is spinning!! So much info. But I think I can figure it out. Hey Froggy and Lightning, thanks for all the info. I'm sure everyone interested in doing the same(including myself) really appreciates the time you spent explaining everything. You guys got some bitchen set-ups. Just curious Froggy, what's the ballpark cost on a set-up like this? Materials and labor. Batteries, wiring, your time. Thanks again, you the man.
Jason :D
Thanks for the compliment
:D

Froggystyle

02-24-2003, 06:41 PM

I just checked back in to this thread and there appears to be a couple of questions unanswered.
Cost... I figure it would cost between $500 and $700 for the complete system without a charging circuit, Meaning, no extra alternator to rig and adapt. The variance in price is to accomodate how far I would have to go, and what would have to be removed to wire to the amps. A bunch of extra fuse blocks or distribution blocks would be extra. If the stereo was wired, and all you needed was the batteries rigged, the rack built, a single shutoff switch installed, all terminated properly and trick... you would be closer to the $500 mark. Add complexity... add hours.

Hallett19

02-24-2003, 07:36 PM

I have seen froggy's work, been in the boat and he did the batteries in lignting's boat, he did all the wiring on my boat, but we didnt do the batteries in my boat, I run a crumby little stereo, but his system runs HUGE all day long!! When we get back to camp, put the charger on over night and be ready and charged for the next day, its crazy to hear that thing thrash all day, and I mean ALL DAY(if you don't know froggy, he enjoys his music)and the boat start right up, and its no surprize froggy does tight work, I'd let him take a stab at your ride, get you up and running like a champ. And from what I understand, kill those optimas, they are shit, I "adopted" froggys old Interstate batteries (great batteries)but am moving up to Trojans when these are tired. No matter what you do, good luck man.

BoatFloating

02-24-2003, 10:11 PM

Hallett19:
I have seen froggy's work, been in the boat and he did the batteries in lignting's boat, he did all the wiring on my boat, but we didnt do the batteries in my boat, I run a crumby little stereo, but his system runs HUGE all day long!! When we get back to camp, put the charger on over night and be ready and charged for the next day, its crazy to hear that thing thrash all day, and I mean ALL DAY(if you don't know froggy, he enjoys his music)and the boat start right up, and its no surprize froggy does tight work, I'd let him take a stab at your ride, get you up and running like a champ. And from what I understand, kill those optimas, they are shit, I "adopted" froggys old Interstate batteries (great batteries)but am moving up to Trojans when these are tired. No matter what you do, good luck man. I have to agree with you. Froggy gave me the hook up for the Trojan batteries. They are in the boat and ready to roll during summer. Until then I won't know if they will help. But I can tell you those Optima's are not even close to worth the money. I have no doubt that Froggy knows the battery set up. All I know is every battery set up hasn't worked that well and I can't wait to try this out. Go with Froggy if you want it done right he knows his shiznet.....

Froggystyle

02-24-2003, 10:23 PM

Thanks for the good words guys. Anytime!

beyondhelpin

02-24-2003, 10:32 PM

Ultra21
Do you have any problem with the fumes? I have thought of doing something like that but I did not want to get chocked out.

BoatFloating

02-25-2003, 08:58 AM

beyondhelpin:
Ultra21
Do you have any problem with the fumes? I have thought of doing something like that but I did not want to get chocked out. Beyond, look at the picture of generator you will see he has it vented out transom.
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Reader_Rides/Jet_Boats/Boat2_001.JPG

twistedpair

02-25-2003, 10:11 AM

Is that generator Coast Guard approved? I'd hate to give your insurance man ammunition for denying a claim if anything were to go wrong. frown

beyondhelpin

02-25-2003, 10:14 AM

BoatFloating
Beyond, look at the picture of generator you will see he has it vented out transom Yea I seen that, but when we are anchored cranking the tunes we are normally hanging out on the sundeck or swim platform right where the generator is exhausting. Drinking and carbon monoxide usually don't mix to good!!

Party Cat

02-25-2003, 10:20 AM

twistedpair:
Is that generator Coast Guard approved? I'd hate to give your insurance man ammunition for denying a claim if anything were to go wrong. :( It is not CGA.....I am going to be running the 2000 watt version of the same generator and will be making a bracket to hang it over the back of the boat. I don't want to give the ole insurance co. any reason to deny a claim if I ever have one.....

TrojanDan

02-25-2003, 02:08 PM

Ahh crap man. I just bought one of those Optima Blue Tops for my dedicated stereo battery and word is they suck? I bought it at Costco so I guess I can return it.
Where's the best deal for one of those Trojan batteries?

Froggystyle

02-25-2003, 02:18 PM

TrojanDan:
Ahh crap man. I just bought one of those Optima Blue Tops for my dedicated stereo battery and word is they suck? I bought it at Costco so I guess I can return it.
Where's the best deal for one of those Trojan batteries? It's not so much that they suck. For what they are, which is a compact battery that will not leak in any position, it works great. It is sealed so you can put it in a passenger area of a car without a problem, and a variety of other plusses. It is also hugely expensive.
The Trojan's have a great reserve capacity, excellent power delivery and they cost half as much as an Optima. I like the depth of reserve that the 6 volts provide, but the 12v work great for starting and stuff.
For Trojans, I go through Shane Smith at Sunbelt Battery in Santee. They ship everywhere. Number is 619.572.2792 cell or 619.258.7050 office.
Enjoy!

rivercrazy

02-25-2003, 02:35 PM

Optima's definately do not suck! I've had a pair for two years running stereo and they work great. They come right back up to full charge easily and can take a lot of deep discharge / recharging cycles without failure.
It just depends on what your goals are. Do you wanna be the sandbar DJ or have a good level of reserve for private beach/cove/boat music. If you wanna be the sandbar DJ then go big on power reserve like the 6V battery bank system.

TrojanDan

02-25-2003, 02:40 PM

Thanks for the info Froggy. I was in a bind and had to provide a battery ASAP so I picked up the Optima. I might see how it works this summer and if need be, go the 6V route you suggest. Our boat's currently in ROZ's warehouse getting a little something something. I'll post pix's on the RRX thread when complete. :cool:

TrojanDan

02-25-2003, 02:50 PM

Cool. Thanks RC. Definitely don't want to be the Sandbar DJ but will have the capability. I'll let someone with the 6V batteries do that. :D

BoatFloating

02-25-2003, 08:38 PM

IMHO, Optima for the money suck. I've had 3 different boats with good stereos and have tried all kinds of ways to keep the system running and for the last 2 years I had 2 Optima's and 2 Deep Cycle 30 series Delco's. Before that I had 4 30 series Delco's. I can tell you from experience that the Delco's were just as good as the Optima's for half the price. I'm just saying the Optima is not worth the extra money they get for them. I just got 2 Trojan 6v for the price as the 1 Optima and will have 1 1/2 more play time. I think you would be just as happy with 2 Delco 30 series or another good brand of 12v to start and run a average stereo set up.

beyondhelpin

02-25-2003, 11:39 PM

Boatfloating or anyone else
I am running about 1000 watts Rms which I crank pretty steadly. I am running one of the larger combination deep cycle starting batteries. Just not getting the playing time I would like. Would you go 2 6 volt Trojans or 12 volt?

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 08:23 AM

Make no mistake about it... running two 6v is like adding two batteries. Each one has more reserve capacity than anything else damn near, but you have to run two to get the required voltage.
If you are looking to come up a little, a single 12v will probably do the trick. If you are looking for "all day" playing... I would get a pair of the 6v. I am very pleased with mine, and everyone I have done an install for loves them as well.

Slick

02-26-2003, 08:57 AM

No doubt about it, Wes' 6volt system works well. If you're not going to run a dedicated system there is a lot better product for the money than Optima. I know a couple people that run Dual Pro Lightning Series batteries and can run their stereos hard all day. www.dualpro.com (http://www.dualpro.com) I'll be running two Lighting Group LS3100s for stereo and one LS2700 for starting and accessories. These batteries kick ass.

beyondhelpin

02-26-2003, 09:08 AM

Froggy
I am already running one battery dedicated to the stereo. I am considering whether I want to run two dedicated batteries. I was mainly wondering if two 6 volt or two 12 volt would be better. Whatever I do I want them to be charged in the boat if at all possible. Do you see a problem with that. I will also mount one of the built in marine chargers to plug in when the boat is out of the water.

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 09:34 AM

With one 12v starting battery, and 2 6v batteries you will have no problem charging from your existing system. Put them both (the six volts act as one) on a Perko switch and turn to "Both" or "2" to charge the stereo batts.
The problem with charging from the boat is that you often don't run it enough to charge them hardly at all. If you smoke your stereo batteries over, say, 8 hours at the sandbar pulling 40+ amps consistently than you will need to charge for 8 hours at 40+ amps to recover them. That is a lot of running around to charge your batteries!
I put mine on an Automatic 60 amp charger overnight, and they charge in around 5 hours.

ROZ

02-26-2003, 10:04 AM

Slick:
No doubt about it, Wes' 6volt system works well. If you're not going to run a dedicated system there is a lot better product for the money than Optima. I know a couple people that run Dual Pro Lightning Series batteries and can run their stereos hard all day. www.dualpro.com (http://www.dualpro.com) I'll be running two Lighting Group LS3100s for stereo and one LS2700 for starting and accessories. These batteries kick ass. The SVR's are pretty good as well....
SVR80
Voltage 12
Reserve Capacity 150
Amp Hour 80
CCA* 800
Max Amps 2600
Length 10.0"
Width 6.50"
Height 9.25"
Weight 57lbs
[ February 26, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

beyondhelpin

02-26-2003, 10:05 AM

I understand. The reason I would like them hooked up to the charging system is so that if the boat is running it will not be pulling the battery down. I want the reserve for anchor time. I spend about a third to half of my time running the boat. We still like to ski and wake board. Plus the wife just likes to cruise. But we can easy spend 12+ on the lake so I need a reserve that will give me almost 8 hours for my 1000 watt system. I would be cranking the system hard for about 4-5 hours approx.
Do you or anyone else know offhand if 2 banks of a 3 bank charger can be hooked to the 6 volt batteries? That way I am not trying to charge both batteries for stereo with just 10 amps over night. Most of the built in chargers run about 10 amps per bank.

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 10:41 AM

They say for every 100 watts of stereo, you burn 10A of draw. If you are truly bumpin 1000 watts, you will draw at 100 amps or so. Figure then, that whatever your run time, multiplied by the number of amp draw (realistically around 40 amps) is how long, and how many amps you will need to charge at. For example, 40 amps, 4 hours = 160 amp/hours or so. To charge that with a 10 amp charger will take 16 hours. To charge it with a 60 amp charger will take a little over 2.6 hours.
Plus, you have to understand that my sources indicate that nothing is worse for a deep-cycle battery than a slow charge. You want to charge them fast, completely and take it off of the charger. You would NEVER want to charge with a 2 amp maintenance charger. Always charge up with a real charge, and maintain with a small one.
This also brings into play the splitting of the charge. 30 amps, three batteries is 10 per battery. 10 amps/three batteries is obviously 3.33 amps per. The same works with the alternator. Most engines come with around a 50 amp max alternator. IF you are at cruising speed, and IF you have all of the other batteries isolated and IF you have no other draws... you will charge at 50 amps. Take one of those equations out (40 amps worth of stereo for example, combined with electronic ignition, electric fuel pump, lights, blower motors, bilge pumps, gauges, etc...) and you are probably just breaking even. Certainly not enough to charge the rig. Then, divide whatever amperage is left over by the number of batteries it is expected to "charge".
Count on your evening charge to replenish your batteries. Make sure you charge all the way up before storage, and don't charge with a maintenance charger.
Enjoy.

Slick

02-26-2003, 11:32 AM

Specs for Lightning series:
LS 2700
MCA 1180amps
CCA 930amps
Reserve Capacity 175 minutes
Size 6.93"H x 6.5"W x 13"L
Weight 53lbs
Cost Approx. $155.00
http://www.dualpro.com/images/LS2700.jpg
LS 3100
MCA 1500amps
CCA 1200amps
Reserve Capacity 200 minutes
Size 8.27"H x 6.81"W x 13.43"L
Weight 69lbs
Cost Approx. $185.00
http://www.dualpro.com/images/LS3100.jpg
[ February 26, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Slick ]

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 11:35 AM

By the way... as a small side note.
Optimas are around $110-145 a piece.
SVR's (the ones I tried) were around $200
I don't know how much the Lightnings are,
Trojans are around $65
This is the first case where I have found something to work a lot better for my application) and cost less.

69 Elim

02-26-2003, 11:51 AM

Froggy -
You mentioned that they ship Trojans all over. Do you know of anywhere in Central Ca they distribute? Or how much would it be to ship them? my guess is they weigh alot so cost alot to ship.

Party Cat

02-26-2003, 12:04 PM

69 Elim:
Froggy -
You mentioned that they ship Trojans all over. Do you know of anywhere in Central Ca they distribute? Or how much would it be to ship them? my guess is they weigh alot so cost alot to ship. Check out the Trojan web site for dealers....
Trojan Batteries (http://www.trojan-battery.com/default.htm)

BoatFloating

02-26-2003, 12:29 PM

69 Elim:
Froggy -
You mentioned that they ship Trojans all over. Do you know of anywhere in Central Ca they distribute? Or how much would it be to ship them? my guess is they weigh alot so cost alot to ship. Go to their website and you will find one closer to you. http://www.trojanbattery.com/ :D

BoatFloating

02-26-2003, 12:42 PM

Party Cat:
69 Elim:
Froggy -
You mentioned that they ship Trojans all over. Do you know of anywhere in Central Ca they distribute? Or how much would it be to ship them? my guess is they weigh alot so cost alot to ship. Check out the Trojan web site for dealers....
Trojan Batteries (http://www.trojan-battery.com/default.htm) Party cat beat me to punch. I need to learn to type faster.
Froggy, you brought up a intresting point about a over night charge. Do you know of any small (carry size) 50-60 amp automatic chargers. I know the two I have are a 10 amp automatic and a non-automatic 10 amp with a 50 amp starting setting. The 50 amp would work but not being automatic is not good. I know you talked about the big roll around ones but I'm looking for something more portable.
[ February 26, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: BoatFloating ]

69 Elim

02-26-2003, 12:54 PM

thanks guys for the link to the website. even found a dealer in my home town.

beyondhelpin

02-26-2003, 02:50 PM

BoatFloating
Froggy, you brought up a interesting point about a over night charge. Do you know of any small (carry size) 50-60 amp automatic chargers. I know the two I have are a 10 amp automatic and a non-automatic 10 amp with a 50 amp starting setting. The 50 amp would work but not being automatic is not good. I know you talked about the big roll around ones but I'm looking for something more portable
This home charger is the biggest bench charger I know of. There are probably bigger ones, but I haven't seen one.
century (http://www.hand-and-power-tools.com/power-supplies/century-87151-bench-charger.asp)
This is the route I am thinking about taking for charging batteries in the boat. 30 amps, transfer on demand, automatic, and maintenance mode.
onboard charger (http://www.basspro-shops.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=45195&hvarTarget=search)
I went to quite a few places today asking questions. I went to stereo and battery stores. I have come to the conclusion most people don't have a clue. One guy even told me their "Stinger" batteries charged almost instantly . Said if you run the battery down just start the motor for a few minutes! I replied: from what I know about batteries that is impossible. His response: I guess you don know anything about "Stingers" do you. I got out of there.

wsuwrhr

02-26-2003, 04:57 PM

Froggystyle, I sent you a private message awhile ago concerning your boat rigging deal. Did you get it, I didn't get a response from you. Just curious.
Brian

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 05:29 PM

wsuwrhr:
Froggystyle, I sent you a private message awhile ago concerning your boat rigging deal. Did you get it, I didn't get a response from you. Just curious.
Brian I just checked my PM's, and it doesn't look like I got it.
Send it to wes@tridentboats.com and I will get right back to you.

beyondhelpin

02-26-2003, 06:57 PM

Froggy
Thanks for your help. You helped clear up some things for me when the local experts dont seem to know which way is up. But hey if you need a trolling motor hooked up..........
[ February 26, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: beyondhelpin ]

beyondhelpin

02-26-2003, 06:57 PM

Dreaded double post.
[ February 26, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: beyondhelpin ]

WetWillie

02-26-2003, 07:06 PM

Froggy,
You are the man! That was some great info. I have been dieing to ask and I have not seen it talked about on the boards. Can I ask whats the deal with Trident Boats? I guess this is a new adventure for you? I heard something about duel pump jet?? eek! Can you elaberate? Or is it double top secret at this time?
WW :D

Froggystyle

02-26-2003, 08:36 PM

WetWillie:
Froggy,
You are the man! That was some great info. I have been dieing to ask and I have not seen it talked about on the boards. Can I ask whats the deal with Trident Boats? I guess this is a new adventure for you? I heard something about duel pump jet?? eek! Can you elaberate? Or is it double top secret at this time?
WW :D Trident Custom Boats is my new boat company. I don't want to go too deeply into it, but we will likely be offering the dual-drive jet as a stock power option.
Anyone who wants to be added to the update list, just e-mail me at wes@tridentboats.com and I will add you happily.
Squirts up, and thanks for the good words guys.
[ February 26, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]