Have todays waterski enthusiast been brainwashed?

[Boater2003]

All through the years, people have been led to believe that the only boat design on the market that operates well for competitive skiing is the inboard. A few of the inboard boat manufacturers have concentrated their efforts in producing a boat that will handle the demands of today’s competitive skier, and they’ve done quite well. But by staying with the same basic design and technology of a straight inboard, skiers have been short changed.
The basic design of the inboard is ancient. The only bottom design that has ever worked well with the inboard is the Warped Vee design, in which the front portion of the planning hull has a Vee shape, and as it continues back, it flattens out almost completely. This bottom shape is inefficient and rough riding. This bottom design operates best with a center-mounted engine that takes up desirable interior space. To make the boat turn and handle well it has to have two or three fins mounted on the bottom towards the front to give it a pivot point to turn on. Since the inboard boat has no directional qualities built into the hull, the ski bar has to be located towards the front of the boat, usually over the fins. This prevents the skier from pulling the boat from side to side. Back seat passengers have to then dodge the rope.
Besides the interior room discomforts, the inboard boat has many design problems. The first problem is a major one - overheating. This is largely due to inboards’ picking up their cooling water through the bottom. Since it uses surface water, debris can get picked up and clog the cooling system.
Hull vibration is another inherent problem in design. Due to the location of the prop under the hull, extreme vibration can be felt. It is caused by the turbulence and constant cavitation against the surface.
There has never been successful positive steering in reverse on an inboard hull. Another problem is the the exhaust system~ two rubber hoses connected to fiberglass mufflers that deliver the noise and cooling water outside the boat. Besides the excessive noise problem, both the rubber hose and fiberglass mufflers cannot withstand the extreme heat buildup from loss of cooling water.
Keeping a dry bilge is impossible in an inboard due to the number of thru-hull ports such as rudder, prop shaft, exhaust, cooling, ect. These are only a few of the drawbacks to an inboard boat.
There is a state-of-art ski boat now availible that solves all of these problems. The prototypes of this fantastic new design were built in August of 1981. The have been under rigorous testing ever since. This state-of-the-art technology is extremely efficient and offers a superb ride. It has absolutely no hull vibration. It leaves a turbulence free wake and table with no rooster tail. It has no noisy exhaust system. The boat will maintain planning speed in the 12 to 14 mph range. The boat weighs 2300 lbs . With comparable horsepowered engines it will run 13 to 15 mph faster than the best inboard, making its top speed around 60mph. This computes to a 17% more effeicent hull- thus 17% better fuel economy. The boat handles and performs like a sports car and holds all of waterski magazines records for speed, acceleration and handling. It has less bow rise than most inboards and can move up to 20mph in REVERSE! That’s fast enough to pull a wakeboarder!
Dollar for Dollar this boat will outperform out handle and has more storage, leg room and creature comforts than any inboard on the market. It will run in shallower water and give a smoother ride than any inboard. And Yet people still like driving inboards???
Ive been in the boating industry for around 20 years and have driven a large number or tournament approved and recreational ski boats and cant seem to find another boat to match it. This model of boat wont cause inboard manufacturers to go bankrupt but it will give that serious skier something to consider. Why spend your money on a boat that wont perform?
Note: In case your wondering the name of this boat ill tell you. It’s manufactured by Moore Marine Marketing in Mcqueeney, Texas. Its called the Ski-Pro Extreme. http://www.extremeskiboats.com/20ftextreme.jpg
[ August 04, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Boater2003 ]

[Boozer]

http://www.extremeskiboats.com/

[summerlove]

V-Drives can handle unlimited HP. Not much else to say. Besides, who the hell wants clamshells anyway.

[Phat_Kat]

RiverDave:
Post some pictures of it or a link to a website or something.
RD hey dave didn't everyone say it would go back to 0 at 10K posts? Guess the jokes on them eh?

[HM]

Now that is some funny shizzy!
Ignorance at its finest. :D

[HM]

BTW - several competitive ski boat mfg's have messed around with the "new" technology of stern drives. They are targeted towards the more recreational people - but have not made it into competitions (real sanctioned competitions) because they miss the performance required by competitive skiers - as that is the compromise to attain better high speed performance. Notice they are really after the bare-footers anyway, and most of the competitive bare-footers use boats DESIGNED for the performance required for them.
Looks like a nice boat! (looks like a Tige' hull with a stern drive.)

[I_C_E_Y]

An 18 ft Biesmeyer is the only way to go when skiing.

[roln 20s]

Why spend your money on a boat that wont perform?
Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this response. First off, how are you related to the Ski-Pro. I actually got to drive one back in 1994 while we were beginning our boat search. Good top in, but no qualities that I saw compared to a comp ski boat.
Everyone knows that comp ski boats are not made for top end power. However, there are a couple out there that will run up near that 60 mph mark (Malibu Corvette Edition).
The reason that the inboard hulls are designed the way they are is for the ski wake. But not for it to necessarily be small or big, but because of the shape they want to obtain. Any comp boat will have a ski wake that rolls over smooth and there isn't any "wave effect" (wake rolling over the outside caused by sterndrives) that the skiers will have to deal with.
Cavitation, exhaust problems, cooling problems,water constantly in the bilge, etc??? My basis for my statements are as follows- 1) my best buddy has owned the right to the Mastercraft promo boat since I was in 7th grade in Arizona. I learned behind the Mastercraft and have never experienced the problems you are mentioning.
2) my family owns a Malibu Echelon LX ski boat with over 700 Hours and haven't experienced any of the above problems.
The boat you are referring to has been around a long time and has never been that successful, atleast on the west coast where I live and boat. For what reason, I have no idea. I will not dis the boat by any means, but have a hard time with your quote I started this post off with.
As for engine in the middle- you got most of it right. Its there to center the weight in the boat. At 36mph, you don't want the weight in the back of the boat because the skier will pull it out of line. The fins are in place solely for the purpase of the skier not to pull the boat side to side, and to guarantee a straight consistant pull. You get a better pull and can stay consistant with the pylon in the middle. It was made to seem like the boat will not perform (as in drive) without the fins, and pylon in the middle, which is BS. The boats handle as well as any boat out there, if not better.
The market has been expanded greatly by innovation for the market, but not new to boating. Want more room in the boat without the engine in the middle, buy a V-Drive. Plenty of room, more top end, and still GREAT performance for any aspect of water sports. The open bow--people consider these boats family boats not just skiing machines because of the open bow design.
Brainwashed?? No, but know what performance and qualities they are buying with and for their $$$, absolutely. They are buying a performance ski boat with the appetite for family fun. Until a boat offers the performance, ski ability, storage, value and family atmosphere and is proven better, comp ski boats are here to stay.
I remember this Ski-Pro back in the day that was yellow and had banana George barefooting next too it. Great pic!
Roln 20s

[roln 20s]

Looks like a nice boat! (looks like a Tige' hull with a stern drive.)
Tige is located in Texas.
Roln 20s

[HM]

roln 20s:
Looks like a nice boat! (looks like a Tige' hull with a stern drive.)
Tige is located in Texas.
Roln 20s What a coincidence! LOL!

[HM]

Now that is what I call minimal bow rise!!
http://www.extremeskiboats.com/20ftextreme.jpg

[HM]

Hey Patrick - you and I are on the same page!
I typed up a near identical response, then deleted it for a short response of ignorance.
I hear the same dealio about wakeboard boats. Same thing, they don't realize that a big wake is not enough....the shape, speed consistency, and etc. are just as important. If someone is recreational, they can get away with something else as the boat is used recreationally most of the time. Lots of boats make pretty good wakes. But only a handful make ideal wakes.
Thank god my buddy spent the coin on a Tige' 22 IR, as my wife would not put with us owning 3 boats!! Once I started boarding behind the Tige', I saw and rode the difference. If you don't know anybetter, it is not that big of deal.
Kind of like never boarding/skiing behind a boat with perfect pass...after you do, you have to have it!!

[roln 20s]

I hear the same dealio about wakeboard boats. Same thing, they don't realize that a big wake is not enough....the shape, speed consistency, and etc. are just as important. If someone is recreational, they can get away with something else as the boat is used recreationally most of the time. Lots of boats make pretty good wakes. But only a handful make ideal wakes.
Exactly! And another funny thing-- these wakeboard and ski boats just keep getting more expensive, yet you keep seeing more and more of them. Something must be right about them. I will admit one reason I want a cat (my first personal boat will be) so that I don't have to go 20mph on a saturday or 17 at Havasu on the weekends. I want to cruise at 60-hehe. But no matter what, I will ONLY ski behind a comp boat- PERIOD. Nothing compares and now and nothing will- IMO.
Roln 20s (one happy comp ski boat owner that can't wait to own a cat :D )

[ssmike]

roln 20s:
Why spend your money on a boat that wont perform?
Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this response. First off, how are you related to the Ski-Pro. Here is his email address from the profile...
ryan@extremeskiboats.com

[Boater2003]

well ill say my last name is moore.

[Boater2003]

but am i wrong anywhere in my thinking, is anything i said false???

[roln 20s]

but am i wrong anywhere in my thinking, is anything i said false??? Yes, read my above Novel post. I'm disagree with a lot of the stuff you said as I pointed out, but definately am not knocking your product. I think with the ski market like it is, you could have a lot of success if its marketed correctly. But its hard to compete against Malibu and even Mastercraft. They are proven in ALL respects and have built reputations off of quality and performance. And I must say Malibu's interior and detail work is UNTOUCHED in the Market. They make all their own products. Have you seen the billet pieces in the interior that have Malibu engraved in them plus the rigid beveled edges? Just awesome.
Do you have dealers? If so, do you have one in AZ? If not, you should seriously consider it, there is a huge market here. Truely unbelievable between AZ and So Cal!
Roln 20s

[Boater2003]

Roln 20s
Todays v drives are tanks. They rare up on take off,and dig the deepest hole on take off out of any ski boat around. Why did inboard makers switch to V-drives, because of the room and stroage of a stern drive. You made a comment of bad wakes from a stern drive. Ski-Pro is the only AWSA, and ABC approves stern drive on the market. Out of the four boats that are ABC approved ill let you see which boats barefooters prefer
Pay close attention to wakes and table comments. Barefoot Boat rankings (http://www.barefootcentral.com/Boat_Review/boatreview_Frame.htm)
A barefooter is the absolute pickiest skier around, he feels every dip and bump the boat puts off. Endurance racing requires speed and a good ability to break waves. Just do some research. As far as personal preference, just go drive a Ski-Pro you'll see the difference. I promise you that is you drive and ski a Ski-Pro you'll never want another inboard again.

[HM]

Boater2003:
but am i wrong anywhere in my thinking, is anything i said false??? Pretty much everything was false or a blatant manipulation. Other than that, you were o.k. :D
If your point is to say that competitive boats don't give the performance that recreational boaters/skiers want, then I just say "duh."
If they(you) choose more of an educated angel of balancing performance desires for the recreational minded instead of bashing the performance that is required for serious and competitive ski use.
I am not a ski nazi by any means, but I know the difference.
It is o.k......MasterCraft has a couple of stupid marketing angles that takes advantage of the uneducated, who would probably be better suited with an Extreme Ski boat. They talk about the unsafe propeller on stern drives that can KILL your children. And that it is unsafe to go into water less than 5 ft with a stern drive as they will hit bottom (they have a graphic that shows a sterndrive 5 ft under water).
I think the most false statement was about the ski boom infront. No boat can match the lateral stability of this design. In competitions and even practice, there are only 2 people (max) in the boat so the "dodging the rope" comment is useless. All the ski boats have a rear tow eye for when the boat is used recreationally and is as laterally stable as any other stern drive.
Oh yah. all that cooling/heeting problem statement was totally full of crap.
I personally have problem with companies that manipulate the truth. Those in the know, see right through it. Companies that abuse that will never come close to maximizing thier sales regardless of how great a product they make.
So, if your target is the uneducated boat buyer, then, you have a good chance, unless they walk into a Sea Doo showroom.

[roln 20s]

You made a comment of bad wakes from a stern drive. No, thats not what I said. I just pointed out the differences in shape.
This topic has to do with brainwashed waterski minds, and you are trying to compare your boat to the best barefooting marks. Which, as I pointed out earlier I know Banana George used your boat. I'm not debating any barefoot characteristics as the only barefooting I do is 6 feet left of the boat on a boom. But I don't think you can try and compare your boat to todays comp ski and wakeboard boats.
Having a great barefoot wake means nothing for great ski wakes and boarding wakes. Knowing barefooting, I know you want as small as wake to roll over as possible when you are going through the wake, which could translate into good waterski wakes, but not sure on the roll of the lip (as I referred to earlier). With experience, these lips kick the skis an don't allow you to effortlessly fly through the wake. I'm talking for me, and I would compete and complete the slalom course at 28 off, so at one point I knew how to ski :D
But overall, great barefooting reviews will not sell to the common weekend family skier. That means nothing to them. If I could barefoot behind the boat, that would mean everything, but since i can't, it doesn't do anything for me. Again, I think your product is rather revolutionary and has been. But unfortunately for yourself and SkiPro- comp ski boat companies transformed to V-Drives and are real hard to beat. I agree they aren't the best for skiing (but are better than the standard family runabout) and aren't the best for barefooting, but any good barefooter back 85-100 feet could handle the soft wakes without a problem. But you don't have to convince me of your product, you have to convince the media entranced public. And when Powerboat magazine calls Malibu the tow boat of the year 9 of the last 11 years, its hard for anyone to tap this market.
The V-Drives have heavy back ends, which does displace more water for larger wakeboard wakes with the hull to guarantee the soft roll lip. More room inside and still a good ride, again, its hard to compete.
And yet, companies realize this and have made interior alterations: Malibu with their XTi design, Tige with their Type iR design. The companies are trying different things to guarantee the performance quality with more room. And yes, two Tow boat of the Year awards for the XTi Malibu mean the performance is there, and yes the public has bit on both designs.
I promise you that is you drive and ski a Ski-Pro you'll never want another inboard again.
Bring a brand new 21 to Phx and I will gather some people to come and test ride and drive it. I would be happy to and I'm sure Holy Moly and numerous others would be more than interested in trying. Plus, we are on this site because we love performance and speed, so we are a pretty good test team. My bro has a couple wakeboard sponsors highly ranked in AZ, and lives and dies MALIBU, not Mastercraft or anything else, and would love to see what he has to say.
Do you have a dealer network?
Roln 20s

[HM]

Ski-Pro is the only AWSA, and ABC approves stern drive on the market. Out of the four boats that are ABC approved ill let you see which boats barefooters prefer
Pay close attention to wakes and table comments. Looks like you have mastered the performance required by bare-footers. Killer!! What does that have to do with regular skiers?

[HM]

LOL....Roln & HM on a mission of truth....
"YOU WANT THE TRUTH?........."

[Boater2003]

Actually Ski-Pro is a factory direct company and every boat is custom built by the owner right at the manufacturer, so there is no dealer network. We have a problem with sending out a bunch of identical boats and we like building unique projects. However, i do believe there are a few promo people in the lake havasu area and i could probably arange a demo.

[miller19j]

Boater2003:
Endurance racing requires speed and a good ability to break waves. As in Ski Racing? I have never seen a Ski Racer behind a comp ski boat. :confused:

[roln 20s]

Actually Ski-Pro is a factory direct company and every boat is custom built by the owner right at the manufacturer, so there is no dealer network. Cool, that is awesome. I am a big fan of this custom process. But how much exactly can each boat vary? Graphics? Stereo? Etc???
Cuz I know that you can order any boat direct from the factory and make it as custom as you want for many ski boat manufacturers. The only difference is you have dealers to help display the products and then you can choose each and ever aspect of the boats you wish. I agree, the majority of comp ski are most likely bought from the showroom floor, but I do know numerous people that have purchased boats and ordered them to their specs. Its a much better feel as an owner and I give you and SkiPro props for this method. Then they know you and you know them! Good relationship tool.
When I go to Havasu at the end of the summer, I'll let you know and maybe I can meet up with a promo boat just so that I can speak with a direct knowledge of the product.
Happy Boating
Roln 20s

[Boater2003]

The base boat consist of a 4.3L V-6, (which gets great fuel economy and has a top speed of 44mph) A basic interior, carpet and a windsheild, so to speak. Customization consist of engine upgrade up to an all aluminum 400 Cu In Supercharged monster of a motor generally with a top speed of around 80mph. Interior layout, colors, and material, Lighting options include front and rear headlights, and specifying interior lighting. IF you want ballast tanks, tower, telescoping forward air pylon, manual or electric barefoot boom, types and styles of instruments, steering and throttle systems. Graphics are customer drawn. Pretty much any option accessory or idea you can can come up with is done by you.
It makes it fun to build these boats, but one of the drawbacks is it slows production so we cant kick out 3-4 boats a day like Nautique and Mastercraft. Building a sterndrive also requires the boat to be much more structual than that of an inboard due to all the power going through the transom. So our boats cost more to build and our profit structure is only about 30% of Mastercrafts and Nautiques. But we like doing what we do and offering the boat we do. Weve been family owned and operated since the start and we still are.

[Boater2003]

As in Ski Racing? I have never seen a Ski Racer behind a comp ski boat Sadly there are very few websites that post ski racing but there are several Slalom and barefoot speed skiers out there that ski behind our boat. Naturally the insane skiers that can travel at speeds exceeding 80mph dont ski behind our boat as it wont run but around 80MPH with the biggest motor we offer. Here is a website with endurance barefooting that is growing increasingly popular, its like a relay race for 18-31miles depending on the course Endurance Races (http://www.barefootcentral.com/endurance_races.htm) .

[6 balls]

Sounds like you're building a pretty decent Barefoot boat.
For serious slalom skiing I think I'll stay with the ancient inboard :D
By the way... how's that wake when you're pulling wakeboarders in reverse? :rolleyes:

[TCHB]

I had a SANGER 21 TX inboard outboard tournament ski boat. The boat was Powerboat ski boat of the year in 1985 and 1986. The boat ran a honest 60 MPH on radar with 350 Merc Cruiser Package and would plane at 14MPH.
Call Sanger they still have the boats.

[h2oski2fast]

Boater2003:
but am i wrong anywhere in my thinking, is anything i said false??? Oooookkkkk! This post was rather entertaining. Was wondering about the statement "There is a state-of-art ski boat now availible that solves all of these problems. The prototypes of this fantastic new design were built in August of 1981"? A fantastic new design that was built over 20 years ago?
As for 60mph, yawn...... Don't get me wrong, I still turn bouys every now and then, but woud rather ski behind a twin-turbo 21' Shiada and jump the wake. While you're sittin on the beach waiting for the water to flatten out, I'll be out skiing. To each their own.
I understand your enthuiasm for your family's product, but statements of tournament boats being in inferior to your's would be better left to the trailer boats magazine crowd, not to this forumn which is a very informed group.

[h2oski2fast]

[ August 05, 2003, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: h2oski2fast ]

[THOR]

RiverDave:
Well I don't care about all that soft wake, lippy wake, etc... b.s. :D
Am I the only one that's straight floored by the 20mph in reverse?
Can this boat get on plane backwards or what?
RD You would probably have to retract the trim tabs soas not to make the rear of the boat dive down. :D
I would like to see the prop that make this thing go in reverse that fast.

[h2oski2fast]

RiverDave:
Well I don't care about all that soft wake, lippy wake, etc... b.s. :D
Am I the only one that's straight floored by the 20mph in reverse?
Can this boat get on plane backwards or what?
RD This reminds me of a quote from the movie Tin Cup.
"Hey Dave, have you ever parred the back nine with a seven iron?", ........."Well, no Roy, it never even occurred to me to try"

[Ian]

I have to chime in here, because I started competitive water skiing when I was 11 and have had the oppurtunity to ski behind nearly every boat on the market. A lot of the problems mentioned by boater2003 such as vibration, leaking, noise, etc... are just plain false. Vibration in a tournament ski boat is most often associated with a bad prop or poor alignment between the engine and the prop shaft, noise is not really an issue in the newer boats, though I'll admit some of the older ones were a little loud (did anyone notice the loud motor on the extreme boats website). Our present tournament ski boat is a 86 Mastercraft (which hasn't used wood in their construction since the early eighties) with over twelve hundred hours and it has never overheated, never leaked, and never had an issue with the exhaust falling a part. Now on the topic of the poor ride, ride quality is never an issue at the private lakes where nearly all serious water skier do their skiing. I will admit that I/O's have a nice flat table that works well for barefooting, but not as well as the even smaller and flatter barefooting wake found behind an outboard. Now as far as skiing goes I will guarantee that an I/O will never have as good a wake as a quality inboard ski boat like Mastercraft, Ski Nautique, Infinity, or Malibu to name a few. Trust me I have skied through the course at 35' off at 36mph behind good tournament boats and I can guarantee I wouldn't be able to do it behind an I/O. If anyone ever has questions about tournament ski boats feel free to email me, like I said I've skied behind them all.

[THOR]

Ian:
I have to chime in here, because I started competitive water skiing when I was 11 and have had the oppurtunity to ski behind nearly every boat on the market. A lot of the problems mentioned by boater2003 such as vibration, leaking, noise, etc... are just plain false. Vibration in a tournament ski boat is most often associated with a bad prop or poor alignment between the engine and the prop shaft, noise is not really an issue in the newer boats, though I'll admit some of the older ones were a little loud (did anyone notice the loud motor on the extreme boats website). Our present tournament ski boat is a 86 Mastercraft (which hasn't used wood in their construction since the early eighties) with over twelve hundred hours and it has never overheated, never leaked, and never had an issue with the exhaust falling a part. Now on the topic of the poor ride, ride quality is never an issue at the private lakes where nearly all serious water skier do their skiing. I will admit that I/O's have a nice flat table that works well for barefooting, but not as well as the even smaller and flatter barefooting wake found behind an outboard. Now as far as skiing goes I will guarantee that an I/O will never have as good a wake as a quality inboard ski boat like Mastercraft, Ski Nautique, Infinity, or Malibu to name a few. Trust me I have skied through the course at 35' off at 36mph behind good tournament boats and I can guarantee I wouldn't be able to do it behind an I/O. If anyone ever has questions about tournament ski boats feel free to email me, like I said I've skied behind them all. I got out of water skiing (which I used to do competitively) because I was tired of the huge chop and wind blown conditions on the big lakes. I chose to get a big boat now. Not that big though.
Where do you ski locally.

[DerkintheJerk]

I dont know about your boats but i own a 1999 Ski Nautique with the hot tub open bow style and it is one of the biggest pieces of trash ive ever owned. Most of what this guy has said fits my boat with the exeption of the exhaust priblems, it is noisy in the back seat to the point that you cant hear the radio, the passengerside floor is turning loose and there are stress cracks on the outside, i sucked up a dorito bag into the cooling and cooked the motor, overall the boat has cost me way too much money just in repair.
I board behind an extreme that lives in my neiborhood occasionally and it throws a fat wake with the tanks full and the pylon up, the driver is about 200lbs (that always helps) but he is a good guy, the boat rides alot better than mine.

[EricU]

Each boat style and drive has it's pros and cons.
I currently own a 89 21' Schiada river cruiser with a blown, intercooled EFI Big Chevy. I also own a 03 Air Natique Team edition with all the bells and wistles.
Both are nice boats. I end up spending most of my time on the Natique, with two smal boys and a wife. I love to go wakeboarding and the Natique is a great family/wakeboard/ski boat. It doe's ride like a pile compared to the Schiada. But he Natique is far superior for skiing/wakeboarding (as far as my family is concerned).
But I do love screwing around on the Schiada, love the sound of the big block (wife hates it!), love the speed and acceleration, and I love flying across Berryessa in a two foot chop!
Both boats are V-drives and backing up is screwed compared to some of the other boats that I have had (jets), but how often do you back up?
I almost sold my Schiada about a month ago, due to it mostly sits in my garage. But if I did sell it, I would get a nice big block jet (shoulder burning Bassets and all!) to park next to the Natique, just because of the speed!
Eric.
[ August 05, 2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: EricU ]

[DerkintheJerk]

You would probably have to retract the trim tabs soas not to make the rear of the boat dive down.
I would like to see the prop that make this thing go in reverse that fast image location (http://www2.volvo.com/volvopenta/global/en-gb/marineengines/powerforleisureboats/planing/gasoline_sterndrive/57dp/)
Their are not trim tabs on an extreme, the back just goes up, like the picture in the top of this forum, but only throw the boat in reverse

[Ian]

I got out of water skiing (which I used to do competitively) because I was tired of the huge chop and wind blown conditions on the big lakes. I chose to get a big boat now. Not that big though. I don't ski much on public lakes and rivers due to the conditions, but I have been known to blow the dust of the ski at the Kings River and Colorado River. If I really want to ski, I meet up with friends at the private lakes in Bakersfield.