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View Full Version : Why is HTM sueing L.A. county?



sandblasted
03-05-2003, 05:29 PM
Read this in the L.A. Daily News today:
Article claims HTM is sueing the county because they allowed high speed testing at Castaic Lake. The basis for the lawsuit seems to be that since HTM is being sued by the estate of one of the deceased boaters then L.A. county should pick up the tab if HTM loses since the county allowed it to happen..
I just love these quotes from the lawyer for HTM..
"If HTM Corporation is held liable then the county is liable to us" said Neil Klein of the law firm for HTM. "The county encouraged these high speed tests of extremely fast boats on the water".
So let me get this strait...Steve Coulumbe designed a boat to go extremely fast (some say it hit 130 mph the day before the accident)Steve then built the boat to go extremely fast and Steve was at the throttles when the accident occurred (according to county investigators).
so why is the county responsible? Because they have deep pockets? There is nothing the county did that contributed to this accident. Steve Coulumbe was going to test that boat at high speed anywhere he could. Castaic just happens to be the closest lake to Acton.
I'm sorry anybody had to die in that accident but I think the fault lies directly with the designer and builder of a boat that obviously failed at what it was suppose to do..Travel at high speeds safely.

NashvilleBound
03-05-2003, 05:34 PM
I too am sorry anyone died that day but Steve was breaking the rules he was well aware of. What a load of kah-rap. Man I hate lawyers!!! Except mine of course :rolleyes:
[ March 05, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: NashvilleBound ]

JetBoatRich
03-05-2003, 05:36 PM
Does not make sense that HTM has the right to sue. They designed, built and drove the boat? They are at fault, maybe I can sue them for taking my time to write this :D

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 05:38 PM
I am sorry for the family's of the one's who lost their family members, but HTM is killing the sport they cater to with this Lawsuit.
They build high performance cats; this lawsuit will just in turn make it more difficult for anyone to insure these cats, and suing the city is just going to unnecessarily nazi-ize lake enforcement on speed and everything else. If HTM is serious and continuing with this suit, I would never consider them or recommend them as boat to buy to anyone.
What they are doing is a perfect example of what is wrong with society today and the reason there are so many liar (lawyers..sorry jordy had to steal it), avoiding accountability when you are at FAULT.
[ March 05, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

Hallett19
03-05-2003, 05:40 PM
Please tell me you didnt see this coming from a mile away, it was only a matter of time before someone sued HTM and I seriously doubt their insurance covers accidents like that, so, pass the puck of resposibility to the county, see if they cant get anything out of them, and you know what, I bet you some bleeding heart jury will find the county at fault for not keeping them from at safer speeds or no speed signs posted, there is always a loophole or a group of damn hippies that will award HTM the case. It is very unfortunate that people died, but unfortunatley people are told they can "sue the shit" out of people in situations like this and they usually win.

unleashed
03-05-2003, 05:41 PM
Is this really a lawsuit?? If it is and they are succesful in their suit then look for speed limits on every lake in the nation. This could potentially be the downfall of performance boats if this lawsuit is succesful. I think it was horrible that we lost people in the boating world but the responsibility lies with the driver. People have to understand there are always going to be risks going that fast. The responsibility lies with the driver of the boat unless the boat had a proven faulty part that caused the accident.
Deano
unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) devil

77charger
03-05-2003, 05:45 PM
I think this is why our insurance rates suck!I am sure they knew that they have a 35mph speed limit on castaic and if you are going to go over 100 or even 80 for that matter you are running a risk of getting hurt no matter the boat!Excessive speed and boats can be dangerous!What was sickening was earlier when i had heard about a lawsuit some of the family memebers wer quated as saying that that boat was designed to cruise 45mph and wouldnt go past 65mpf(BS!)then why two HUGE BLOWN MOTORS ? and another said his dad would not go in a boat that was capable of going faster(MORE BS)I feel sorry for the familys loss but when you play to go fast there is an ultimate cost!
To hold the county responsible is an attorneys way to line his pockets as well as fine someone else to blame besides the actual operators of the boat.I myself know that there are speed limits and do i obey them?NO and if i get injured in the process well i have myself to blame rather than hold the state,chp,local police,etc who failed to issue me a citation.
Most boats today will break the 35 mph limit and some can easily break 70
:confused: I havent been to castiac in years but i am sure they had signs posting the rules(i havent seen a lake without them)You know them counter clockwise rotation,noise,speed limit,drinking,etc.
Go ahead and flame me for my thoughts but they are my opinions :mad:
77(is pissed at frivolous lawsuits)charger

DEEZ NUTTS
03-05-2003, 06:00 PM
No point in owning an HTM now. The thing will be to fast for any lake in a couple of years.
I guess I'll start to learn more about electric motors now, so as to get a jump on the future of marine high performance. Dont worry the HB crew will get hooked up with my latest solar panels and hopped up golf cart motors. :D

Bense468
03-05-2003, 06:16 PM
Lets sue the lawyer for even bringing this to court.

126driver
03-05-2003, 06:23 PM
Hallett19:
Please tell me you didnt see this coming from a mile away, it was only a matter of time before someone sued HTM and I seriously doubt their insurance covers accidents like that, so, pass the puck of resposibility to the county, see if they cant get anything out of them, and you know what, I bet you some bleeding heart jury will find the county at fault for not keeping them from at safer speeds or no speed signs posted, there is always a loophole or a group of damn hippies that will award HTM the case. It is very unfortunate that people died, but unfortunatley people are told they can "sue the shit" out of people in situations like this and they usually win. True dat. Sorry to sound like a dick guys, but if anyone is suprised by this they are incredibly, extremely naive. Spill a hot cup of coffee (HELLO! IT'S F'N COFFEE!) on your lap and sue 'cause no one warned you it was that hot. Walk down a supermarket isle and have a litre bottle of Coke break, and you're picking out the color of your new Ferrarri. Until there are MAJOR torte reforms passed, the deep pockets, not the responsible party, will continue to pay. We live in the age of litigation because someone got fat eating too many Big Macs, or because some kid's wacko dad thinks it's offending to say "One Nation, under God."
Un-effin-real. :mad:

sandblasted
03-05-2003, 06:33 PM
The only ones that will be happy when this mess is over is the friggin lawyers. Man, I hate lawyers... burningm

Boatcop
03-05-2003, 06:41 PM
Any time an "accident" happens on publicly owned property (which Castaic is) it's common practice to include the entity that owns the property in a suit. Whether it's a park, bike path, lake, or anything else.
While the County would ultimately win such a suit, it would be very costly, since any decision in the County's favor would be appealed.
What usually happens in situations like this, is the "damaged" party, files a damage claim with the County. The County can either accept the claim as is. Negotiate a smaller settlement. Or decide to do nothing. In other words, ignore it.
Only if they ignore it, can the damaged party sue in court. I think it's something like 90 days to act on the claim before suit can be filed.
After suit is filed, the County has to decide whether it's cost effective to fight it, or just settle. Usually they settle. Suits get paid off for pennies on the dollar. So a County that's sued for mutlti-millions can pay out $250,000 - $500,000. Which is actually less than the legal costs to defend it, and all the appeals.
This is what the greedy trial Lawyers hope for. argue
The Counties have insurance to cover these things, and it's usually the risk-management sector of the Insurance Company that decides how to handle the case.
So what happens next? The Insurance premiums for the County go up. And you know what that leads to? Yep. You (LA County Residents) get to have your taxes increased so in essence, you are paying for the lapse in judgment of a boat maker. :mad:
It aint fair. That's just the way it is.
[ March 05, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Boatcop ]

Mandelon
03-05-2003, 06:51 PM
That makes me ill. What a precedent! If the county is responsible for a speeding boat on a lake, would not the state be responsible for a speeding car on the freeway? Where would it end????
How can the operator and willing passengers of any vehicle not assume the responsiblity for their own illegal actions?
We've heard about this same type of lawsuit against the motorcycle manufacturers......with overpowered street bikes..... If it is true, I would hope its thrown out...

LUVNLIFE
03-05-2003, 06:51 PM
It's bullcrap. Speed limits will follow, this is what causes insurance rates to go up and this is why we have red tape and paper work because everyone has to cover their ass.

ROZ
03-05-2003, 06:59 PM
So, if I have an accident on the freeway while traveling at a rate of 95 miles per hour, I guess I can sue the state for not pulling me over between the time I went beyond the POSTED speed limit and my accident? Can the victims of drunk driving accidents sue the city or state for not getting the drunk driver off the road before he caused the accident? Sounds like that's what someone is trying to do....I realize what boatcop said is how things work(sueing everyone envolved to get some damages), but please.....
I know we all don't mean to sound bitter, but they all new the consequences....

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 06:59 PM
We live in a pathetic world, and its our own fault. Very few people want to take responsibilty for there own actions. Those people in that HTM died and everyone is sorry it happened, and if that would have been you and I in that boat and those same people were still alive they would be out there testing again,they died doing something they enjoyed. If Charley offered me a ride in his new 110mph Dcb I would go tomorrow and the line behind me would be around the building. We all know the risk,and its something we love to do. The real sad part about all this is that they will probally win,which means everyone loses.

Boatcop
03-05-2003, 07:04 PM
Police Agencies have been sued in the past for "Failing to enforce."
What happens is the family of a person killed by a drunk driver, sues the police because, if they had been there and stopped the drunk driver, then the accident wouldn't have happened.
These are summarily thrown out. The police have a duty to protect the "Public at large", not individuals.
Similar suits have been filed against states, counties, or cities for failing to maintain streets and/or roads, and the condition of the roads lead to an accident.
However, it has to be proved that the entity was negligent in road maintenance, and that negligence lead to the condition that lead to the accident.
I really don't see how the County can be held negligent in the HTM case, unless it WAS true that the authorities routinely allowed HTM, or other boat manufacturers to exceed the 35 MPH limit in testing their boats.
I'll be following this case closely. The results should be interesting.

mike37
03-05-2003, 07:05 PM
Sandbar Junkies:
We live in a pathetic world, and its our own fault. Very few people want to take responsibilty for there own actions. Those people in that HTM died and everyone is sorry it happened, and if that would have been you and I in that boat and those same people were still alive they would be out there testing again,they died doing something they enjoyed. If Charley offered me a ride in his new 110mph Dcb I would go tomorrow and the line behind me would be around the building. We all know the risk,and its something we love to do. The real sad part about all this is that they will probally win,which means everyone loses. so is it ok for your family to sue charleys family if you crash and die becouse it would be charleys falt ?

beyondhelpin
03-05-2003, 07:05 PM
Beyond the fact that it is BS for HTM to sue the county, The family suing HTM is wrong too. I'm sure everyone in that boat knew what they were going to be doing on the lake that day.
I do lots of risky things in my life but I know that I and I alone am responsible when I am doing something risky. Anybody want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. Actually don't do that anymore after a low speed malfunction on a jump. But I took the risk. The parachute manufacture did not make me strap it on!

Kilrtoy
03-05-2003, 07:35 PM
BOATCOP,
You are right, except this L.A..
Los Angeles City, Los Angeles County and Los Angeles Unified School District are self insured.
Castaic, stand by, you thought they were hard last year, it is going to be HELL this year

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 07:36 PM
posted by Sandbar Junkies:
We live in a pathetic world, and its our own fault. Very few people want to take responsibilty for there own actions. Those people in that HTM died and everyone is sorry it happened, and if that would have been you and I in that boat and those same people were still alive they would be out there testing again,they died doing something they enjoyed. If Charley offered me a ride in his new 110mph Dcb I would go tomorrow and the line behind me would be around the building. We all know the risk,and its something we love to do. The real sad part about all this is that they will probally win,which means everyone loses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so is it ok for your family to sue charleys family if you crash and die becouse it would be charleys falt ?
My laywer would say take every pennie you can get and my opinion you should shoot the laywer. If you gave me 9 lives I would be right back in line for 8 more rides. That HTM wasn't a death trap it was just real bad luck. The people in the boat new the risk and were not forced to get in the boat. Explain to me why its the countys fault because if they couldn't get out at Castaic they would have gone to Elsinore, Parker or Havasu,and tested.

SK48
03-05-2003, 07:42 PM
I did not read all of your posts, but I hate to tell everyone that the Lawyer (scum) representing HTM is the head of the National Water Ski racing association. I have supported water ski racing for a lot of years, but I am done. Why would a boat racer turn on his own sport. What a jerk.

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 07:48 PM
BECAUSE HE IS A LAWYER. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY,AND PEOPLE NEED MONEY MORE THAN THEY NEED MORALS.
[ March 05, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Sandbar Junkies ]

Just Tool'n
03-05-2003, 07:53 PM
I have a question for someone that works for a large county agency. How does it cost money for the county to defend itself? Do they go out & hire a lawyer to represent them. What about the lawyers that are on staff that work for a county agency. Dont they aready get paid. Is that not what they are paid for, so why does it cost the county money to represent itself?
Just another question that boggles my mind on how we do accounting.

Jordy
03-05-2003, 07:58 PM
This goes so far beyond irony it's sickening. Yes it was a bad deal, but time to suck up and deal with the consequences of the actions taken. I know it's pretty uncommon here today. Thanks to the availibility of liars, dammit, lawyers with less than questionable ethics who are willing to represent these types of cases, which are becoming more and more frequent, and without some kind of serious tort reform laws, as mentioned earlier, it's only going to get worse. It's been brought up, but suing McDonalds for hot coffee, suing fast food companies because you're fat? WTF???? You can bet these people are raising some first class kids with absolutely no accountability at all. ADD didn't exist when I was a kid. It was made up as an excuse for poor parenting and a lack of attention that was experienced by latch key kids with a television babysitter (granted there are some exceptions before I get flamed).
This whole thing is bullshit and has the potential to wreck the boating industry. As Boatcop pointed out, in reality, this case will be settled out of court, without regard to the lack of merit and circular reasoning, but because it's cheaper to pay than fight it. What a bunch of crybaby horseshit. Step up and accept some responsibility. Set an example for your kids. You know, or did at one time, that this isn't the right thing to do, but it's so easy and it's a temporary fix. It's chicken shit is what it is.
I've never been a big fan of HTM, but at this point I'd buy a Baylitter or some other chopper-gun mass produced boat before I'd look at them because I know Baylitter isn't looking to wreck the boating world as we know it. I hope you all feel the same. burningm

mike37
03-05-2003, 08:04 PM
My question is that
A lot of folks on this board are mad at HTM for suing LA County
But its OK for the family of the passengers to sue HTM and you know dam well that they all knew exactly watt they were going to do in that boat that day.
And do you think that the park rangers were unaware of the fact that HTM was doing hi speed tasting most likely they were on the sidelines cheering them on
So if the family weren’t suing HTM
HTM would not have to spread the blame to protect them selves something you would all do if in the same shoes as HTM
This was a tragic accident so let them rest in peace and drop all the law suites

Jbb
03-05-2003, 08:12 PM
Very sad......again .In MY opinion.....The Captain of the Vessel is responsible ....period...Be it bad judgement ,bad design bad execution of a maneuver....He is ultimately responsible for the safety of his passengers and boat.Realistically speaking ...If HTM, DCB, Eliminator, ect Invited me on a test drive on one of their rockets ...I would be there tomorrow!...This is what we love to do.. Things really get uncomfortable when the lawyers get involved....I was involved in the Demise of Eastern airlines years ago as a stockholder, employee and pension holder.....When all was said and done I had to settle for a few pennies on the dollar for pay and pension owed me.The Creditors were owed millions of dollars along with vendors and suppliers ...they settled for a few cents more than I did ......The lawyers ......Were all paid in full.....
[ March 05, 2003, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: JETBOAT BRIAN ]

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 08:12 PM
I don't believe the other families should be suing HTM either. I was on the boards at the time and remember the posts that were put up two days before of the speeds they were attaining that they were having a blast and that they were going out again after further dialing in.
All those guys knew what they were getting into; shit! they got into a boat that was not fully complete (seats) with protection and knew they would get near 130-150. You knew it going in...it is the same as racing. As for the Park Rangers, they were not driving the boat. They should not be held liable.

Jordy
03-05-2003, 08:15 PM
mike37:
But its OK for the family of the passengers to sue HTM and you know dam well that they all knew exactly watt they were going to do in that boat that day. My above post was referenced at all parties involved in this case, and all other stupid "blame somebody else for my mistake" kind of litigation.
HTM is merely perpetuating it with this case.
I don't even live in L.A. County, or Cali for that matter, but the effects of this case have the potential to be so far reaching that it pisses me off all the same.

Dusty Times
03-05-2003, 08:22 PM
I won't say everything I really feel in fear of looking like an extreme dick.
But with the direction the lawyers are going now I should sell my boat and buy a pedal boat before thats the only thing aloud on the water (just wanted to buy mine now before popularity raises the price).
I hate lawyers but would like to be on that jury. burningm

77charger
03-05-2003, 08:24 PM
mike37:
My question is that
But its OK for the family of the passengers to sue HTM and you know dam well that they all knew exactly watt they were going to do in that boat that day.
So if the family weren’t suing HTM
HTM would not have to spread the blame to protect them selves something you would all do if in the same shoes as HTM
The guys who went on that boat were all boaters and some even had very fast boats themselves they all knew the danger involved.One of them posted the night before how they did 149.99 and were on the rev limiters so they wanted bigger props to break 150mph.They took the risk of going for that speed and their families i am sure were aware of the danger so for them to sue htm IMO is wrong!
I myself am getting a drag boat ride for this season a flatbottom that will be very fast.it belongs to my boss and I too know that when i make a pass it could be my last!My family knows the danger of it and one thing for sure is i will not want them to sue the owner of this boat and if i have to put this legal paper before i drive i will.Since i am resposible for my own actions and am not being forced to drive it i am choosing too!

Boatcop
03-05-2003, 08:36 PM
Los Angeles City, Los Angeles County and Los Angeles Unified School District are self insured. Either way the taxpayers will get the bill, in one way or another.
What about the lawyers that are on staff that work for a county agency. Dont they aready get paid. Is that not what they are paid for, so why does it cost the county money to represent itself?
Most Lawyers in a County employ are prosecutors in the DA's Office.
Not a lot of experience in litigation defense. Also not a whole lot of call to employ one (or more) full time. Counties either contract with private litigation defense attorneys, or hire one (or more) as the need arises.
There's not a lot of money in lawyering for a public agency, compared with private practice. Most lawyers in public employ have limited experience and are there to get that experience, so they can move on into private practice, where the big bucks are.
These high dollar suits sometime drag on for years. A county doesn't want to have to break up their defense team and start from scratch half way through the suit, when one of the attorneys leaves for bigger and better things.
They'll get better results by hiring outside for the particular case. Kinda shows how they regard their staff lawyers, huh?

al cole'holic
03-05-2003, 08:47 PM
This thread is all to familiar as we got into it pretty good in July/August about this....never heard what did ever happen with the $10 million lawsuit that was in the papers back then regarding Ken Lane's wife and son-in-law suing the county for not enforcing the speed limits..good to see that since then and now we all have the same point of view: bullshit.

Just Tool'n
03-05-2003, 08:52 PM
Boatcop, Thanks for answering a nagging question, I could of called my mom who is a paralegal, but then again she will probably start nagging to me herself!
Thanks again.

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 08:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I won't say everything I really feel in fear of looking like an extreme dick.
But with the direction the lawyers are going now I should sell my boat and buy a pedal boat before thats the only thing aloud on the water (just wanted to buy mine now before popularity raises the price).
So when your foot slips of the pedal racing MR BROWN and you sprain your ankle who are you going to sue.... :) :D

C2
03-05-2003, 08:59 PM
Geesh, no suprise. It wasn't a question of ***if***, but rather ***when*** they would sue :rolleyes:
If a city or county decides to defend a claim, one of their most productive strategies is simple. Out litigate the other party. They old saying “you can’t fight city hall” has a lot of truth to it.
Boatcop is right, either way, the citizens will pay. Hiring outside counsel is smart, some of the largest firms get the cream of the crop from the best law schools in the nation, but they also come at a hefty price.
Hopefully the County will takes a stand on this one. In my opinion, I’ve always thought they were looking at some potential liability, we’ll see what happens and hopefully I am wrong.
Didn’t we beat this topic to death about a year ago?
C2

Jordy
03-05-2003, 09:00 PM
Sandbar Junkies:
So when your foot slips of the pedal racing MR BROWN and you sprain your ankle who are you going to sue.... :) :D I'd start with the boat manufacturer. Then I'd find out who makes their pedal assemblies, name them, the dealer who sold me the boat, name them, the salesman for selling me an obviously defective boat, name them, the shoe/sandal manufacturer that I was wearing at the time for not making a safe shoe, name them, the store that sold me that unsafe shoe, name them, and I could keep going. burningm
see how absolutely stupid this is? Funny thing, you'd probably get money from most if not all parties named as it's easier to settle than fight. What an absolute mockery of justice.

Jordy
03-05-2003, 09:01 PM
C2:
Didn’t we beat this topic to death about a year ago?
C2 Maybe a little over 6 months if that long... :confused:

Kilrtoy
03-05-2003, 09:01 PM
The goverments lawyers suck, that is why they pay the big firms, the big bucks, to do all the real work. The ones on the payroll just answer questions, like can we put this water fountain next to the mens or womens room. Yes the taxpayers(US) will pay for their mistakes in more ways than one, property tax, luxury tax, couty tax, lake entrance fees etc......

al cole'holic
03-05-2003, 09:03 PM
C2:
Didn’t we beat this topic to death about a year ago?
C2 ....actually, 7 months. My biggest concern with this old topic is......what the f*#k happened to Chestah Cheetah?

Just Tool'n
03-05-2003, 09:03 PM
Heck maybe it was the bottle of Coca-Cola he drank that got him all excited to go fast, They should look into that theory also.

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 09:04 PM
I am going to sue the guy who sold me that totally bitchen 600 engine..since I lost that race against the pedal boat. eek! :D eek!

Jordy
03-05-2003, 09:04 PM
Just Tool'n:
Heck maybe it was the bottle of Coca-Cola he drank that got him all excited to go fast, They should look into that theory also. A relative of the "Twinkie Defense." Interesting. :D

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 09:05 PM
How about MR. BROWN Its his fault you were pedaling so fast. IT has to be all his fault. Sorry Mike but you are the bad guy here.

Dusty Times
03-05-2003, 09:06 PM
F**k It.
If this happens I'm going back to hunting.
Lawyers that is and there is no limits.
Just bring lots of amo.

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 09:07 PM
I knew eventually I would end up with No Dough because I became a Doe in someone's lawsuit. :) :confused: :( :D

Jordy
03-05-2003, 09:10 PM
Sandbar Junkies:
How about MR. BROWN Its his fault you were pedaling so fast. IT has to be all his fault. Sorry Mike but you are the bad guy here. You need a different lawyer. Didn't you see the millions of dollars I was going to make for him with my shotgun blame everyone tatics? Too bad I didn't go to law school. Oh wait, I couldn't get it because I have a conscience and I like to be able to sleep at night and look people in the eye.

Just Tool'n
03-05-2003, 09:10 PM
It is never easy being named in a suit, Heck the old lady looked into something 2 years ago, then this summer it cost me 12k in legal fees, & another 12.5K to settle before it went to court. now I keep her on a short leash!

C2
03-05-2003, 09:14 PM
al cole'holic:
C2:
Didn’t we beat this topic to death about a year ago?
C2 ....actually, 7 months. My biggest concern with this old topic is......what the f*#k happened to Chestah Cheetah? I met that guy at the boatshow...he mentioned something about work instead of being on the boards, lol :D :D :D
Guess he's still alive, maybe he'll make a special appearance for this argument!
C2

Sandbar Junkies
03-05-2003, 09:16 PM
I was out boating on the day to sign up for law school. There lose. :D

superdave013
03-05-2003, 09:18 PM
SK48:
I did not read all of your posts, but I hate to tell everyone that the Lawyer (scum) representing HTM is the head of the National Water Ski racing association. I have supported water ski racing for a lot of years, but I am done. Why would a boat racer turn on his own sport. What a jerk. What's that guys name again?? I just want to swing by and say hi this weekend. :mad:

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 09:33 PM
Here is the thread from the prior discussion on this topic...
BTW..The Lawyer's name is Johnathon Cole who is affiliated with Ski Racing
Thread Link (http://forums.***boat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003076#000000)

rrrr
03-05-2003, 09:47 PM
Do something about it! Join a group to fight this BS, and maybe it will be stopped. There is a bill in Congress right now to limit medical malpractice damages to actual damages with a cap of $250,000 for pain and suffering.
No way is any sumbitch on God's earth worth a settlement of anything over a few million (yours truly included). Hell, just TODAY my 19 year old son was telling me about a friend of his that collected $80K last week in a settlement. He was standing up in a Jeep hauling ass and got bounced into the roll bar.
Lost his spleen, got a shitload of money for being a teenager. If that had happened when I was his age it would have been an ass kicking for all involved and nothing else.
Check out the website for tort reform here in Texas....
Texans against lawsuit abuse (http://www.tortreform.com/)

Infomaniac
03-05-2003, 09:52 PM
What a scum bag lawyer. I hope he is watching.
I am offering a ride in a boat for that thumb sucking wuss. He will cry for his mommy.
Everyone in that boat wanted to be there.

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 09:55 PM
Info, sad thing about this particular lawyer, is it was noted that he has a stable of high-speed Ski-Race boats, so he is no stranger to the triple digit club...just done for greed because our system allows people to avoid accountability and responsibility.

C-Ya
03-05-2003, 10:47 PM
I hate to see everyone just bad mouthing Lawyers. I happen to be married to what I consider a fine defense lawyer, which if this accident had taken place in Arizona, her firm would probably represent the county or state.
Everybody certainly has the right to sue for anything whatsoever. A good plaintiffs attorney will make sure that their suit is designed to overwhelm the county with discovery, depositions, and many legal manuvers, so that the county will find it cheaper to settle the suit.
The county of Los Angeles absolutely opened itself up to litigation by not enforcing it's own speed limit, which through discovery, they will find out that this was a common practice with the different boat manufactures. That's just the facts. No surprise.
Boatcop is correct when he say's that this will probably settle because at a minimum cost of $300.00 per hour to defend, it is not hard to get a legal defense bill that quickly exceeds 6 figures.
It is not a tough stretch to see the case for the family of the man that was just there to go for a ride (I feel very bad that I have forgotten his name). They lost a husband and father that day and probably would not have, if the speed limit had been enforced.
So instead of blaming the lawyers for taking what is considered in any legal circle, a very valid case. Steve and HTM are the blame, but there are clearly some mitigating circumstances giving HTM an interesting paradox in their defense of the suit against them.
If, when they crashed, they had run into another family that was observing the speed limit, would the county have any liability toward them? It will absolutely be proven that Lake Castaic knowingly was not enforcing the speed limit for certain parties, or we, as people on the boards, would not have heard about all the speed runs at Castaic previously.
Now if Steve Columbe's family sues the county, that is a bogus lawsuit in my opinion, but it still would not surprise me.
To call all Lawyers scum is ignorance, especially when every single one of you will need the services of some sort of lawyer, at some time in your life. Like it or not!
Anyways, since I seem to be the only voice of dissention here, I look forward to many of you letting me know that it is now time for me to see my proctologist about the cranial extraction that I am sure that you will feel that is long over due. Just remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Thanx
C-Ya

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 11:05 PM
C-Ya, a Proctologist is a good start :) like you said everyone has there opinion, and I respect yours.
I cannot fathom the loss those families are feeling. Also, if they hit another boat while speeding, I would still question the how much liability the lake would have. It's like suing the cops for a street race while they were not patrolling. If they were letting those guys run around on a Lake full of boats, and not patrolling, they are liable.
My concern is with the families of the folks in the boat. They went there knowingly, and knew they were going to go 120+, and knew the boat was experimental. The Lake is not responsible to them.
Also, the only reason I will probably need a lawyer someday, is because some greedy lawyer who has convinced some idiot plaintiff there are fields of golds in my insurance company's.
Last, your wife may be a good attorney, but that is the exception and not the norm in that field. I have attorney friends and their west side firms and lawyer friends don't even talk right and wrong...they look at and decide on cases by the following rule...Does the case have pockets to pic? Yes/No :)
[ March 05, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

superdave013
03-05-2003, 11:10 PM
C-YA, the guy that was just going for the ride was Mr Pumps. I could be wrong but I don't think it's his family that's sueing.

rrrr
03-05-2003, 11:13 PM
C-Ya:
It is not a tough stretch to see the case for the family of the man that was just there to go for a ride (I feel very bad that I have forgotten his name). They lost a husband and father that day and probably would not have, if the speed limit had been enforced.
Free will. Personal responsibility.
Remember when that meant something?

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 11:14 PM
The article from July said it was the Lane family; I thought he was the engine builder who built and dialed in these big blower setups..
[ March 05, 2003, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

superdave013
03-05-2003, 11:22 PM
Mr Brown, they were not going just a little over 120. On the Wensday before the Friday crash they went 149 mph. Mr Pumps said they were going to change props and go back out on Friday. When I asked about how they got away with going that fast on a 30 mmph lake he told me they had an in at that place. That was quoted in the news paper from Barney's site and some stuff from this site also.
I'm sorry to say that yes it was me that told him that sounds like a good way to get killed among other things. :(
Everyone in that boat knew that they were getting into.
I'm not saying whos fault it is. Just that's what was some of the things that were said 2 days before the crash.

mbrown2
03-05-2003, 11:33 PM
I remember that thread, a lurker then, and I remember all of that dialogue...was there not a ranger, cop or park patrol that also chimed in...and I also remember the speeds being mentioned, but did not want to bring up the fact that they themselves were talking about trying 150 that day, just figured I would be conservative with all the figures being tossed around during and after the investigation....it was funny reading your and Mr. Pumps exchanges in the two day thread ....then all of the sudden a new thread was started right after the accident..then it was dreadfully errie going back to the inital post...I think the post even had the speed in the title.

superdave013
03-05-2003, 11:45 PM
I still have the sticker on my truck.
Yes, it was and still is pretty ****ing errie.
Alot of people got killed last year in boats.
2 of the very best race boat drivers were killed. Mike Hoban and Lance Falknur.
I lost Chris Cline, a very good friend of mine in another crash out at Parker.
I hope this year is a better year for that sort of thing.

C2
03-05-2003, 11:47 PM
Maybe the aricle would help;
County role claimed in lake deaths
By Amy Raisin
Staff Writer
CASTAIC -- The company whose speeding boat flipped last year on Castaic Lake and killed all four men aboard has filed a claim against Los Angeles County alleging it promoted high-speed boating on county property.
After being named in a lawsuit filed by one of the victims' families, Acton-based High Torque Marine filed a claim against the county seeking indemnity and contribution should HTM be held liable to pay damages.
The company's claim is the most recent stemming from the January 2002 high-speed crash that killed HTM owner Steve Coulombe, 38, HTM employees Nelson Brinkman, 30, and Ken Lane, 41, and 47-year-old Chuck Wiseman, a friend of Coulombe's.
The family and estate of Wiseman -- owner of Castaic-based Mr. Pumps Concrete and father of two -- filed a lawsuit against HTM in November alleging negligence and wrongful death.
"If HTM corporation is held liable (in the Wiseman suit), then the county is liable to us," said Neil Klein of McKasson and Klein, the law firm hired by HTM. "The county encouraged these high-speed tests of extremely fast boats on the water."
An attorney with the County Counsel's Office on Tuesday confirmed it had received HTM's claim against the county, filed on Feb. 20, but would not comment further.
According to the county Sheriff's Department's official report of its accident investigation, the 30-foot, twin-hulled prototype was traveling at least 90 mph when it flipped and sank in more than 250 feet of water.
Based on interviews with colleagues and friends, as well as the nature of Coulombe's injuries, the report says that Coulombe was likely operating the catamaran when the vessel became airborne and broke apart.
"Speed was the primary causal factor for this accident," the report said. "The loss of life is the result of gross negligence and if the operator had survived he would have been charged with vehicular manslaughter."
The body of Lane -- whose widow filed a $10 million wrongful death claim against the county last summer -- was recovered by lifeguards within minutes of the crash. The deep water, however, hampered a team of specialized divers who recovered the final body from the murky lake bed one week after the accident.
The deadliest accident in the man-made lake's nearly 30-year history prompted sweeping changes at the popular recreation spot. While Los Angeles County lifeguards still patrol the waters, county park police took over citation responsibilities and launched its own patrol boat.

superdave013
03-06-2003, 12:06 AM
I guess I was wrong about who was not sueing then.
Funny thing is Chuck wore a Helmet and LifeLine safty jacket when he ran his boat at Firebird. When he rode in the boat that crashed he didn't wear any safty gear at all. That boat was even faster.
If I ever get killed going fast in a boat I hope my wife does not sue anyone. (she says she won't)
I know the risks and she does too. That's the main reason I'm not racing anymore.

Rexone
03-06-2003, 02:48 AM
sandblasted:
Read this in the L.A. Daily News today:
Article claims HTM is sueing the county because they allowed high speed testing at Castaic Lake. The basis for the lawsuit seems to be that since HTM is being sued by the estate of one of the deceased boaters then L.A. county should pick up the tab if HTM loses since the county allowed it to happen..
I just love these quotes from the lawyer for HTM..
"If HTM Corporation is held liable then the county is liable to us" said Neil Klein of the law firm for HTM. "The county encouraged these high speed tests of extremely fast boats on the water".
So let me get this strait...Steve Coulumbe designed a boat to go extremely fast (some say it hit 130 mph the day before the accident)Steve then built the boat to go extremely fast and Steve was at the throttles when the accident occurred (according to county investigators).
so why is the county responsible? Because they have deep pockets? There is nothing the county did that contributed to this accident. Steve Coulumbe was going to test that boat at high speed anywhere he could. Castaic just happens to be the closest lake to Acton.
I'm sorry anybody had to die in that accident but I think the fault lies directly with the designer and builder of a boat that obviously failed at what it was suppose to do..Travel at high speeds safely. The way I'm reading this is that HTM isn't being the first to sue and is basically being forced to because it's being sued by the heirs of one of the persons that died. Otherwise HTM (if it loses) would be forced out of biz more than likely. So isn't this being caused by the estate of the deceased person that's suing HTM in the first place (undoubtedly with the encouragement of their lawyer)?
My opinion: Every time you get in a boat of that nature you need to be responsible for what might happen. I'm sure every one of the guys in that boat realized there was no seats, inadequate safety equip etc. and that the boat was not a 75 mph cruiser! None were greenhorns off the beach to my knowledge that were forced to go in the boat against their will or without knowledge of what was safe and what was not.
Maybe I'm missing something but that's what I see here? I think it's sad that we live in a society where no one can stand up and be responsible for what they do. Our justice system condones and encourages everyone to just "blame it on someone else"... from this issue to the McDonalds hot coffee, concept is identical. I think we the people of this country need to insist that our politicians get the rules changed because this concept is bs. The only ones making any money and driving all this is the lawyers (and that's only because our laws and government allow it). After all half the politicians are lawyers (imagine that). Money talks, justice is secondary. A little backwards I think. :mad:
This is a great country but crap like this really pisses me off.

Infomaniac
03-06-2003, 05:22 AM
I guess the Highway Patrol is liable for everyone in the U.S. that gets killed speeding. They are allowing it to happen.

THOR
03-06-2003, 05:47 AM
Well, I will chime in now.
I have read the posts and have a take on this subject. I am currently in the expert witness business and work as a Human Factors Engineer/Scientist. Without having a degree in law I can say with a high degree of reliability that many that have accussed this lawyer of being a scum bag are a little off base. By no means am I calling you liars, so please dont take it that way. I deal with the shit all day, every day and the law is a very tricky and liberal thing. I believe that HTM is sueing because they have a valid claim about testing and safety issues regarding the body of water. This doesnt mean the Steve did not know the risks involved, this means that someone at the lake told him it was okay to test there. Those are two completely different issues.
Here are my opinions without seeing the case file:
1. Castaic failed to warn -- this is a huge issue among defense lawyers. I speak from experience here.
2. There were no posted signs stated speed limits -- this piggy backs on the aforementioned
3. Castaic allowed Steve to test and had prior knowledge that he was going to be traveling at high rates of speed. Therefore, they were able to foresee the risks involved.
I know these things sound unreasonable, but that is the law.
Dont hate me for this post, I was merely giving you a take from someone in business. I am not taking sides either, just merely trying to provide some insight.

ezstriper
03-06-2003, 05:54 AM
Hey guys I feel for the family and there loss, but they should not trash H/P boating because
somone pushed the envolope beyond the limits.
You build something like this, you know shit can
happen-MISTAKES at this speed are costly ! years ago I worked on a drag boat team, and while on tour I saw several guys die, not a great feeling
even a couple of friends, but nobody sued, they all knew the risks, as did the people involved
in this. Americans need to take responsibility
for there actions and not look for the BIG payout when they screw-up. The bad situation here will be when the insurance co.'s who will pay-out put pressure on the local politions and the shit will go down hill from there because we all know those assholes are just looking for a vote getting crusade that the general public will go for-And we the boaters we are are NOT them, Good Luck, Rob

HavasuDreamin'
03-06-2003, 06:40 AM
Two thumbs down for the lawsuits.......both HTM's lawsuit and the heirs lawsuit. Our judicial system sucks. How the system works and the fact that it is easier/cheaper to settle frivilous suits out of court is effin disgusting. :mad:

Infomaniac
03-06-2003, 06:54 AM
Thor - My comment about the attorney is not just because he is an attorney. This guy is actively involved in fast high performance boating himself and knows the how this can have an extremely negative effect to thousands of other boaters.

THOR
03-06-2003, 07:34 AM
Infomaniac:
Thor - My comment about the attorney is not just because he is an attorney. This guy is actively involved in fast high performance boating himself and knows the how this can have an extremely negative effect to thousands of other boaters. I was not getting on you at all. I just wanted to give you all a take from someone in the business. I know exactly where you are coming from and fight with that dilema on a daily basis.

DogHouse
03-06-2003, 07:42 AM
Thor, I can see your points being valid arguments in court if the conditions at the lake somehow caused or contributed to the crash. Do they still hold up if it was the boat itself that failed, or driver error, or something else that would have happened at any other lake besides Castaic on that day? I'm no legal eagle, just curious how blame gets assessed in court.
-brian

schiada96
03-06-2003, 07:44 AM
This is bullshit the two guys built a boat together with 1000 hp motors and not so great drives. And now we are getting screwed at this
lake. Last time I was there there was a sign about the 35 mph limit on the lake. All four guys had knowledge about what they were doing in the boat that day. I know this sounds harsh but they were bragging about 150 the day before it happend.
On these boards I talked with Steve about being careful. And sales of fast boats to the general public and the liability to him.

mbrown2
03-06-2003, 08:32 AM
THOR:
I know these things sound unreasonable, but that is the law.
That is the problem, no common sense used when determining lawsuits, and even you being in the business can see issues with case you laid, and the law is just as much to blame; and no where did you place any blame on the persons that built a superfast boat, jumped in it with no safety gear and started hauling off speed passes. Signs or No Signs, these guys were going to go that fast, they are responsibile for their own demise.
[ March 06, 2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

THOR
03-06-2003, 09:12 AM
DogHouse:
Thor, I can see your points being valid arguments in court if the conditions at the lake somehow caused or contributed to the crash. Do they still hold up if it was the boat itself that failed, or driver error, or something else that would have happened at any other lake besides Castaic on that day? I'm no legal eagle, just curious how blame gets assessed in court.
-brian Yes they do hold up. There lies the battle between experts in make valid and scientifically based points. If you are going to argue driver error, you must prove it. If you are going to argue mechanical failure, you must prove it. So on and so on. You must prove everything and have a solid basis for doing so. Huge money will be spent just preparing for this stuff. Well into the six figures.

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 09:20 AM
without reading all the posts, I need to throw in my .02. It is very sad that people lost their lives in the crash and I feel for the families. With that said there are alot of factors involved. I dont believe in sueing people but they do have a case. If Castaic in fact let them run the boat at speed they are at fault. If a CHP let you run your car down the freeway at 150MPH, he would be responsible. Unless you signed a release of liability that released the CHP from any liability if you where to crash. I know its bullshit but it is the law.
As far as the passengers on the boat. I do believe it is the drivers fault if they crash or get injured. Everyone put their lives in his hands while he was driving. That is why most of us dont drive our boats at speed with people on board...why...because you are responsible for the well being of those people, Unless they signed a release of liability to you. In all honesty,I do feel it was the drivers responsibility to drive the boat safely. I dont believe in lawsuits but their is one here that can not be avoided. HTM is being sued..they inturn have to sue the county, there is no other route.

Jordy
03-06-2003, 09:29 AM
OC-PARTYCAT:
I dont believe in lawsuits but their is one here that can not be avoided. That makes less sense than what you typed next. :confused:
HTM is being sued..they inturn have to sue the county, there is no other route. How is there no other route? HTM accepts the responsibility for the crash and deals with the consequences rather than pointing fingers and the county and saying it's their fault for not stopping us? What a crock of shit.
I must be missing something being in Arizona and all, but I really don't feel the need to have a babysitter (ie. the government in this case) tell me what I can and can't do every waking moment. It was brought up by someone in the thread from last summer that it was the county's fault because the patrols didn't stop and go over the boat with a fine tooth comb and keep them off the lake. You guys with that "the government needs to tell me what to do" state of mind wouldn't last long in Arizona or any other state for that matter.

miller19j
03-06-2003, 09:36 AM
jordanpaulk:
I must be missing something being in Arizona and all, but I really don't feel the need to have a babysitter (ie. the government in this case) tell me what I can and can't do every waking moment. It’s pretty simple Jordy its called taking responsibility for your actions, something that you and I were taught when we were children. But apparently no one else believes in it. :rolleyes:

Jordy
03-06-2003, 09:39 AM
miller19j:
It’s pretty simple Jordy its called taking responsibility for your actions, something that you and I were taught when we were children. But apparently no one else believes in it. :rolleyes: I had a posted a pretty bitter and jaded rant on the first page of this whole bullshit thread. So bitter and jaded in fact I was going to sign RD's name to it when I was done. :D

miller19j
03-06-2003, 09:41 AM
jordanpaulk:
miller19j:
It’s pretty simple Jordy its called taking responsibility for your actions, something that you and I were taught when we were children. But apparently no one else believes in it. :rolleyes: I had a posted a pretty bitter and jaded rant on the first page of this whole bullshit thread. So bitter and jaded in fact I was going to sign RD's name to it when I was done. :D I read it and thought it pretty much said it all.

Jordy
03-06-2003, 09:42 AM
miller19j:
I read it and thought it pretty much said it all. Great, now you're agreeing with me??? I'm not changing my signature though. :D

mbrown2
03-06-2003, 09:43 AM
OC-PARTYCAT
[QBHTM is being sued..they inturn have to sue the county, there is no other route. [/QB]Completely disagree...Take the hit, go out of business, start over, and own up to your actions, but do not just line the pockets of lawyers. The end game to all this is nobody is going to end up rich, except the lawyers...own up, and take the hit.

miller19j
03-06-2003, 09:49 AM
jordanpaulk:
miller19j:
I read it and thought it pretty much said it all. Great, now you're agreeing with me??? I'm not changing my signature though. :D Dam I hate it when that happens! :D

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 09:59 AM
take the hit?
I have to give to you mbrown2, your a real cowboy
In reality that just would never happen. Im sure the lawsuit would not only put them out of buisness, but it would levy their accounts for years to come. There is no starting over.Your life will be destroyed.
That makes less sense than what you typed next.
why. Im typing as a third party. It is a real ****in shame that this is happening but it is. And their is no way to get around it. There were lives lost at the hands of the driver, and the county. If they where in Havasu that would not be the case. Im speaking my opinion on the law as I see it.
[ March 06, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: OC-PARTYCAT ]

miller19j
03-06-2003, 10:02 AM
OC-PARTYCAT:
Im not speaking my opinion here, just the law as I see it. I don’t want to split hairs here but this comment makes no sense.
I don’t follow your logic “not speaking my opinion” and “the law as I see it”
[ March 06, 2003, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: miller19j ]

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 10:05 AM
it is kinda early still...

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 10:06 AM
Im just showing my opinion on the law as I see it... ok, thats what I meant

miller19j
03-06-2003, 10:09 AM
OC-PARTYCAT:
it is kinda early still... wink :D Just giving you a hard time.

mbrown2
03-06-2003, 10:09 AM
OCPartycat,
I respect your opinion, and I feel no different towards you for having it; just as mine is different.

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 10:13 AM
The only ones that will come out ahead is the lawyers. I agree with you 100% on that.
I do agree with you about taking the hit too. Its just an imposible thing (in my opinion) for them to do. <---did I just contredict myself?
[ March 06, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: OC-PARTYCAT ]

Jordy
03-06-2003, 10:15 AM
OC-PARTYCAT:
In reality that just would never happen. Im sure the lawsuit would not only put them out of buisness, but it would levy their accounts for years to come. There is no starting over. In reality, that's what should happen. They made the mistake, they should pay the price, not everyone who owns a boat or lives in L.A. County. Why is it up to the taxpayers to make sure a business survives, especially after a stunt like this? RESPONSIBILITY is the word of the day here. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?
Your life will be destroyed.You're right. If I did something like this, my life would be destroyed. I'd own up to my mistake and deal with the consequences. That's how it's supposed to work.
There were lives lost at the hands of the driver, and the county. If they where in Havasu that would not be the case. Was the county driving the boat? Oh, you mean because they weren't there to slap their hands and tell them that they shouldn't be running a boat at 150 mph with no safety equipment, no chase boat, no seats, no, dare I say, common sense? Common Sense can be the next word of the week.
You're right to an extent because if they wiped themselves out in Havasu, they would be laughed out of the courtroom in an Arizona court for trying something like this. Doesn't mean they wouldn't try.
Im not speaking my opinion here, just the law as I see it. So please forgive me for seeing it like it is. That is some deep circular reasoning there. You see it like it is, which isn't your opinion, but the law? That's how I broke it down. Perhaps I'm wrong. If I am, I'll admit it and not blame Miller. Get my point?

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 10:21 AM
Im with you bro, and it is bullshit. But there is a speed limit out there, and from Ive read the law on the lake was giving them the ok to make the speed runs. I think it is the responsability of the driver but...since they gave them the ok, they have a part in it by law dont they?

Liberator TJ1984
03-06-2003, 10:25 AM
mbrown2:
I am going to sue the guy who sold me that totally bitchen 600 engine..since I lost that race against the pedal boat. eek! :D eek! It's OK ..The pedal boat company is getting sued by the dude peddeling his ass off that day...seems he tore a tendon in his knee , and got blisters on his feet :D
If I call BDS and get a pulley to overdrive my blower they know I will be going faster..does that make them liable if I crash... I don't think so

Jordy
03-06-2003, 10:29 AM
OC-PARTYCAT:
I think it is the responsability of the driver but...since they gave them the ok, they have a part in it by law dont they? I think the county would be named had they wiped out an innocent bystander and I wouldn't see the problem as much with the family of that bystander going after HTM and the County respectively, as they weren't involved with the act. Then, the fact that the speed limit was ignored would become an issue.
The fact that HTM is suing the county because they are being sued for something they were responsible for is what I have a problem with. The fact that the attorney is involved in performance boating makes it that much more ironic. The fact that HTM is being sued by the family of a guy who was there and knew the risks is absurd. You wanna play, you're going to pay. It's just a matter of when and how bad.

h2oski2fast
03-06-2003, 10:29 AM
I don't know if most of you realize the impact this is having on the rest of the boating community. I have to first start by saying I will never buy an HTM, and anyone who in the near or far future buys one will definately get a piece of my mind. If you already owned one, then I can't be disgruntled towards you.
As far as the county being responsible, thats a load of crap. EVERY state/ county owned lake in California has an unposted speed limit of 35mph, even if it is not enforced.
The responsiblity lies 100% in the owner and driver on the craft. The boat was not even complete and no one in the boat was wearing a life vest. In my opinion that was just a blatant sign of ingorance. I know that 2 lives could have easily been saved that day. They should have stayed back at the dock. The others should have been wearing life vests. Were thay that arrogant that they thought they could survive a 130mph+ accident? I realize that the incident was unforseen, but anytime you're out doing high speed testing, all precautions should be taken to ensure as much saftey as possible.
Now the real kicker is, a good friend of mine, who has a good driving record, can't get a decent rate for insurance do in part to the irresponsible actions of the team at HTM. Insurance quotes ranged from $3500 to over $5000 for a 28' Cat with a VXP500hp powerplant, that will only go 71mph on gps.
I'm sorry that lives were lost! I believe Steve was a great innovator in the boating world. I'm at the same time sickened, and frankly pissed off, at the actions and arrogance of the HTM team, and not to mention the bloody vultures AKA laywers. It's effecting all who love boating.

OC-PARTYCAT
03-06-2003, 10:40 AM
How can I say this with out gettin flamed.......Everything or almost everything said above is just the way I see the law. Im am not in anyway agreeing with HTM, the County, or the Lawyers for sueing. I feel it is the responsability of the driver and only the driver of that boat for what happened. but the county ****ed up "legally" by promoting it.
One thing I do agree with is the families of the passengers on the boat.

superdave013
03-06-2003, 10:57 AM
h2oski2fast:
I don't know if most of you realize the impact this is having on the rest of the boating community. I have to first start by saying I will never buy an HTM, and anyone who in the near or far future buys one will definately get a piece of my mind. If you already owned one, then I can't be disgruntled towards you.
As far as the county being responsible, thats a load of crap. EVERY state/ county owned lake in California has an unposted speed limit of 35mph, even if it is not enforced.
The responsiblity lies 100% in the owner and driver on the craft. The boat was not even complete and no one in the boat was wearing a life vest. In my opinion that was just a blatant sign of ingorance. I know that 2 lives could have easily been saved that day. They should have stayed back at the dock. The others should have been wearing life vests. Were thay that arrogant that they thought they could survive a 130mph+ accident? I realize that the incident was unforseen, but anytime you're out doing high speed testing, all precautions should be taken to ensure as much saftey as possible.
Now the real kicker is, a good friend of mine, who has a good driving record, can't get a decent rate for insurance do in part to the irresponsible actions of the team at HTM. Insurance quotes ranged from $3500 to over $5000 for a 28' Cat with a VXP500hp powerplant, that will only go 71mph on gps.
I'm sorry that lives were lost! I believe Steve was a great innovator in the boating world. I'm at the same time sickened, and frankly pissed off, at the actions and arrogance of the HTM team, and not to mention the bloody vultures AKA laywers. It's effecting all who love boating. Well I think we all know pretty damn well how this is impacting us. You should have gone to that lake in a 60mph jet boat after that all went down. Yes, even the little guy was getting ****ed because of it. It reaches far more then your pals insurance.
Maybe you can voice your feelings to that vulture (laywer) this weekend at the ski races. I sure plan to.
I wounder if someone gets all jacked up during the race if he could be sued as he's the head man at the event?

Thunderbutt
03-06-2003, 11:44 AM
We talked about this some time ago. What it amounts to is you have four guys that are experienced boaters and some park officals that were slack on their duty. The four guys must have been out of their minds to go that fast without seats let alone jackets and helmets. That isn't even called lake of judgement, it's stupidity!
I was in the process of looking at property in Ca. After seeing this I think I'll stay here at LOTO. This will affect all of Ca. Az, and Nev. and will eventually filter down to Mo. but it will take at least 5 years. (as that is how far behind the times we are here) You guys will be going 35 MPH from here on. Sorry

sandblasted
03-06-2003, 12:08 PM
Thunderbutt:
We talked about this some time ago. What it amounts to is you have four guys that are experienced boaters and some park officals that were slack on their duty. The four guys must have been out of their minds to go that fast without seats let alone jackets and helmets. That isn't even called lake of judgement, it's stupidity!
I was in the process of looking at property in Ca. After seeing this I think I'll stay here at LOTO. This will affect all of Ca. Az, and Nev. and will eventually filter down to Mo. but it will take at least 5 years. (as that is how far behind the times we are here) You guys will be going 35 MPH from here on. Sorry I pretty much forgot about all the legal bs surrounding this crash until I opened the paper yesterday. I still cannot believe HTM thinks the county in any way contributed to this accident. Are they seriously saying that Steve was not going to test his "high speed" boats at high speed? He would have tested it any where he could..what if he had tested at Havasu and the same accident occured? who's fault is it? Lake Havasu?
Somewhere, sometime in the last 30 years a little thing called "personal accountability" began to dissapear in America. Too many people don't want to take responsibilty for their bad decisions..then they screw up and their friggin lawyers make sure the rest of us pay for it in one way or another...I wonder if every HTM sold from now on will have a warning sticker saying "do not operate at high speed"?

C2
03-06-2003, 12:59 PM
Two quick opinions of mine;
I also believe in accountability. But for any bunk lawsuit to go forward requires participation by a WILLING PLAINTIFF! Not simply a lawyer acting on his own. The plaintiff can dismiss a lawsuit anytime, for any reason. If everybody has bad opinions of lawyers because they got screwed in a divorce case…guess what? It wasn’t the lawyer who screwed you; it was your ex-spouse, directing her lawyer to do so.
I think it is wrong that HTM has filed a countersuit for indemnity. They might have filed it, but there is no way they will be able to convince anybody that they didn’t know they were breaking the law. Undoubtedly the County will also cross-complain (counter sue) HTM, claiming that except for the actions of HTM, there wouldn’t have been any accident in the first place. Standard finger pointing in an injury suit, nothing out of the ordinary.
Last year I cam across an interesting article about the crash. I used to believe the County was going to take it pretty good on this one, but now I’m not so sure and hope the County defends the suits. Read thru this article carefully and read into the comments made by the parties interviewed, interesting stuff;
Copyright Daily News Apr 14, 2002
CASTAIC - Three months after the high-speed crash that killed four men on Castaic Lake, boating industry insiders are noticing a backlash against performance boating.
Bob Teague, 54, owner of Valencia-based engine and parts manufacturing company Teague Custom Marine, said the conditions leading up to the Jan. 11 accident were anything but standard.
"The HTM event, while it was very tragic, is so untypical of the performance boater," Teague said. "I don't think what happened up there on the lake should negatively reflect on anyone else in the boating or performance boating business."
Steve Coulombe, owner of the boat manufacturing company High Torque Marine, was testing a 30-foot catamaran prototype with three other men on Jan. 11 when the craft flipped and sank more than 250 feet to the lake's bottom.
Investigators said the boat was traveling between 90 and 120 mph that windy Friday afternoon. The speed limit at Castaic Lake is 35 mph.
Coulombe and his team were regulars at the lake, as the HTM boats were constructed just north of the Santa Clarita Valley. But unlike certain bodies of water - Lake Havasu, Lake Mead, Lake Elsinore, for example - Castaic Lake does not allow boat makers to test their creations at high speeds.
Teague, a columnist for Powerboat magazine and its lead test driver for the last 10 years, said most performance boats are tested in a controlled environment - permits are pulled, emergency response crews are on scene and the area is closed to the general public.
"Testing is a totally regimented thing," said Teague, a retired Los Angeles Fire Department captain. "I'm certain that Castaic Lake - the lifeguards, the supervisors, everyone associated with the facility - I'm certain they would not condone them going up there and making those high-speed runs.
"They had one patrol boat on the water," the day of the accident, he said, referring to the Castaic lifeguards. Hoping to help prevent another tragedy, Teague is working to get radar guns for the lifeguards.
Responding to previous media reports, Teague said it is unfair to blame the lifeguards or lake officials simply because they did not see the boat traveling at high speeds on a weekday, when few boats were on the water.
After the accident, Los Angeles County Sup. Michael D. Antonovich ordered a team of Los Angeles County parks police officers to augment lifeguard patrols, which will begin Saturday.
"Having the park police on the lake, if it results in a safer recreational boating environment for the average user on the lake, I think that's a positive thing," Teague said.
Castaic Lake officials have, over the years, asked Teague and other lake regulars, like bass fishing organizations and summer camps, to use the west launch ramp for their daily operations.
Teague said that request has been construed by some since the HTM crash as a license to speed.
"I don't feel I get special treatment up there," he said. "I was asked to utilize the west ramp for my business activities to help alleviate congestion."
Mika Yamamoto, regional park superintendent at Castaic Lake, said the lake asked Teague to comply with the request, but only to make launching easier for the general public at the main ramp.
Teague said he will weather the negative backlash stemming from the HTM crash, but he also noted some positive changes since the deadly accident, such as a greater demand for life jackets and a heightened sense of caution among boaters.
"I've never had a pleasure boat accident," Teague said. "Those of us in the business have the responsibility to set the positive example for the less experienced boaters."
--------------------------------------------
C2
[ March 06, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: C2 ]

C-Ya
03-06-2003, 02:45 PM
"Maybe you can voice your feelings to that vulture (laywer) this weekend at the ski races. I sure plan to." From Superdave013
Besides making an ass out of yourself, what else do you plan on accomplishing by doing that? Do you think that he is just going to walk off the case....get real!
Here is a scenario for all of you to ponder:
I am sitting on my dock when an old friend drives up as the passenger in 25', 1100hp Cat. He asks if me and my 2 buddies want to go up to Roadrunner for a burger. On the way, the driver, to whom I do not know, drives like a complete a$$hole, driving recklessly, showing off, not obeying any sort of boating rules, culmanating with an accident that is completely his fault. My 2 buddies and myself are killed as a result. IS THAT MY FAULT BECAUSE I ASSUMED THE RISK WHEN I GOT INTO THIS DICKHEADS BOAT? Because after reading many of the posts on this subject, I believe that many of you have a false sense of personal responsibility, which becomes even more off track when wanting to only blame the lawyers.
Just so there is not doubt as to how I feel about irresponsible boat drivers, I would expect my wife and lawyers for my friends next of kin to go after the boat driver until "he was jerking off his dog to feed his cat, while living in his car!"
If that were to happen, I am sure that many of you would be posting in the dickheads defense!
(I guess my friends reading this will now take me for more cautious boat rides....THANK GOD)
At least, there is finally a subject on this board that is certainly more intellectual than what is normally on these boards.
By the way, does anybody know why they bury lawyers 12' under when they die......because deep down they are really good people!
Superdave013, I will see you at the ski races this weekend, I'll buy you a beer!
C-Ya

Boatcop
03-06-2003, 03:43 PM
IMHO, and in the eyes of law, the operator of a vessel is 100% responsible for the safety of his crew and/or passengers. This falls back on Maritime Admiralty Law, and Federal Navigation Rules,
It makes no difference if they were willing participants or not.
Regarding suing LA County, I'm sure there's some fine print somewhere, either in a flyer, handout, some regulation, or posted on a sign, that entrance and use of the park and it's facilities is conditional, and can be revoked at any time. Also posted would be safety rules, laws and regulations. It would also have wording to the effect of:
"Users of the park, lake, and associated facilities agree to abide by these rules, and hold harmless LA County, LA Parks and Recreation, and the State of California. Use of the facilities is at your own risk"
In order to override these conditions, gross negligence on the part of LA County would have to be proved.
From what I know about the HTM crash. La County was not negligent in any manner.
As far as the lawyers are concerned, they would be doing their clients a disservice if they failed to at least attempt to recover from any and every possible source.
Unfortunately, as in almost all general law suits, the only ones walking away smiling are the lawyers.

playdeep
03-06-2003, 10:18 PM
Adding a little fuel to the fire...
The tragedy that took the lives of those on board the HTM...was not the first case of overt stupidity overriding common sense pertaining to that particular mfg.
There was a prior incident in which two people who were being given a test ride...were hospitalized with serious injuries after being thrown from the boat...when the test driver(HTM employee)suddenly decided to execute a high speed turn while failing to inform those on board of the impending maneuver.
[ March 06, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: playdeep ]

rrrr
03-06-2003, 10:49 PM
C-Ya:
Here is a scenario for all of you to ponder:
I am sitting on my dock when an old friend drives up as the passenger in 25', 1100hp Cat. He asks if me and my 2 buddies want to go up to Roadrunner for a burger. On the way, the driver, to whom I do not know, drives like a complete a$$hole, driving recklessly, showing off, not obeying any sort of boating rules, culmunating with an accident that is completely his fault. My 2 buddies and myself are killed as a result. IS THAT MY FAULT BECAUSE I ASSUMED THE RISK WHEN I GOT INTO THIS DICKHEADS BOAT? Because after reading many of the posts on this subject, I believe that many of you have a false sense of personal responsibility, which becomes even more off track when wanting to only blame the lawyers.
Just about everyone has expressed the opinion that the operator was indeed responsible. The consensus of those responding has also been that the passengers were aware of the risks and chose to participate in the test runs.
The fact that HTM is suing the operators of the lake is asinine. Clearly it is a ploy to have the local government absorb some responsibility for negligence that was the fault of the operator and manufacturer of the boat.
Your scenario ignores the facts: The lake operators have no responsibility for the accident. If the actions described in your hypothetical situation took place, would it be proper to file a lawsuit against the authorities that oversee the Colorado River?
By the way, if I was in the situation that you proposed I would have no problem grabbing the boat driver by the short hairs and informing him I wished to return to shore. So to answer your question, yes, it could partially be your fault that you were injured or killed in an accident.
I don't have a problem speaking up when my safety is compromised.

Thunderbutt
03-07-2003, 12:28 AM
Another thing that I don't under stand. If I am going to make a speed run to see how fast my boat will go, I don't pile three more guys in that will add 500 or so more lb's. Have they released anything on the investigation, like why didn't he have the seats in? Where they drinking? RiverDave you talked to Wiseman the day before, didn't he say anything about the condition of the boat, like no seats.
The law suites won't stop at HTM or the County they will go after Mercruiser drives, the company that made the steering the props and maybe the motor components, any one of these could have caused it. And probably the people that made the seats that were left in the shop.
Where do the other Hot boats test? Did this put a stop to there testing? I'm talking about the 100 MPH boats. Will Hot Boat magazine make all of the models ware life jackets.BOO BOO. Who will be the Hot Boat test driver that will take the HTM down to the wood if they say it will go 150. In the Jan issue it went 102. Will Lake Havasu stop them from running the performance test.
I sunk my boat at Castaic in 1981 and when the lifeguard was pulling me back to the ramp he asked how fast was I going? When I told him as fast as the boat would go he didn't say or do anything.

Seadog
03-08-2003, 09:33 PM
We should make a national legal service and then pay all lawyers minimal wage. Not much incentive if you don't get a big percentile of the ripoff. I love when they trot out these poor victims and talk out of the side of their mouths about the poor victims. The poor victims get recompse for the actual cost of the accident . The money is in the "punitive damages". This is suppose to send a message to the manufacturer or doctor or whatever. What message is made by taking money from education or health care or reducing the usability or availability of products? Greed is good? If they ever award the punitive damages to victim funds and education, instead of lawyers, I may decrease my view that the legal system is full of slimeballs.

NMlakerat
03-09-2003, 03:01 AM
I knew Steve well and on occations have been on castic with him and several boats he had built. I have personally driven an HTM on that lake exceeding 100 mph I agree everyone in that boat knew exactly what they were doing and the risks along with going fast. It saddens me greatly that there was loss of life I knew 2 of the four that passed and I feel for the familys. I now have changed some of my actions when going fast like Lifeline vest and Helmet. to protect me and family
many times have I gone 120+ on the lakes without safety equiptment. I can tell you that castic lake patrol watched as we would exceed speed limits on that lake without interfierence. that is fact. but I can also tell you that we all knew that their was a speed limit and we were willing to face the penilitys for breaking it. sorry the ultimate price for speed was paid everyone has to be responsible for their own actions not through law suites it just hurts everyone else not involved. how can anyone say anyone was negligent in this case everyone knew that a reputable boat manufacture was testing a new twin engine boat that would exceed 120+ and with speed and testing can come disasters everyone in that boat was familar with boats and the potentals involved yet they concentually agreed to go test and go fast without safety equiptment each and everyone was and is responsible for their own actions.

Wicky
03-09-2003, 03:04 PM
I only read the first couple of posts. If this is true I am peeling the "In Memory of HTM" stickers off my boat and pray the mofo lawyers behind these suits DIE!!!!

superdave013
03-09-2003, 05:43 PM
C-Ya:
"Maybe you can voice your feelings to that vulture (laywer) this weekend at the ski races. I sure plan to." From Superdave013
Besides making an ass out of yourself, what else do you plan on accomplishing by doing that? Do you think that he is just going to walk off the case....get real!
Ha Ha, so this is what you were talking about last Friday night. Don't worry, I have thick internet skin. It will take alot more then that to get me pissed at ya.
Hey, It was great seeing you again and thanks for the spot to watch the races and drink tons O silver.
It was nice to meet your wife too. You both are a kick to be around. Oh, when I talked to her about this Ski race guy behind the lawsuite she said "That's calling the kettle black now isn't it?"

Wicky
03-10-2003, 11:20 AM
Click here to see what else the lawyers are trying to ruin!! (http://www.tlpj.org/pressreleases/sprietsma_12-03-02.htm)

Essex502
03-10-2003, 11:58 AM
Maybe if all of the board's participants take the time to call HTM and tell them how disappointed we are that HTM is suing L.A. County someone will take notice. Remember ... WE are their potential customers. We can speak up and tell HTM that we don't appreciate our tax dollars being spent for this.

Wicky
03-10-2003, 12:03 PM
Instead of taking off the "In memory of HTM" sticker, I think I will put a red circle around it with a red slash through the middle. That is a better way of sending a message.

Elsinore Cop
03-10-2003, 01:02 PM
I have been following the HTM - Castaic incident of 01/11/02 very closely. Lake Elsinore has a high speed zone used frequently for performance testing. In an effort to keep this high speed zone open, there will be some limitations. I will post these new rules under a separate thread.
As for Castaic, you can be assured that there will be a finding of liability if it is proven the lifeguards had the legal ability to enforce the speed limit, were present at the time, and chose not to.

superdave013
03-10-2003, 01:26 PM
Wicky:
Instead of taking off the "In memory of HTM" sticker, I think I will put a red circle around it with a red slash through the middle. That is a better way of sending a message. I don't agree with that. Those guys that died are not the ones with the law suite. Maybe take off everything but the HTM and then do the circle/slash deal on it.

rivercrazy
03-10-2003, 01:34 PM
Wouldn't it be kinda foolish to jump in a boat you know goes over 100mph without knowing the driver very very well? I know I wouldn't that irresponsible.
C-Ya:
"Maybe you can voice your feelings to that vulture (laywer) this weekend at the ski races. I sure plan to." From Superdave013
Besides making an ass out of yourself, what else do you plan on accomplishing by doing that? Do you think that he is just going to walk off the case....get real!
Here is a scenario for all of you to ponder:
I am sitting on my dock when an old friend drives up as the passenger in 25', 1100hp Cat. He asks if me and my 2 buddies want to go up to Roadrunner for a burger. On the way, the driver, to whom I do not know, drives like a complete a$$hole, driving recklessly, showing off, not obeying any sort of boating rules, culmanating with an accident that is completely his fault. My 2 buddies and myself are killed as a result. IS THAT MY FAULT BECAUSE I ASSUMED THE RISK WHEN I GOT INTO THIS DICKHEADS BOAT? Because after reading many of the posts on this subject, I believe that many of you have a false sense of personal responsibility, which becomes even more off track when wanting to only blame the lawyers.
Just so there is not doubt as to how I feel about irresponsible boat drivers, I would expect my wife and lawyers for my friends next of kin to go after the boat driver until "he was jerking off his dog to feed his cat, while living in his car!"
If that were to happen, I am sure that many of you would be posting in the dickheads defense!
(I guess my friends reading this will now take me for more cautious boat rides....THANK GOD)
At least, there is finally a subject on this board that is certainly more intellectual than what is normally on these boards.
By the way, does anybody know why they bury lawyers 12' under when they die......because deep down they are really good people!
Superdave013, I will see you at the ski races this weekend, I'll buy you a beer!
C-Ya

mike37
03-10-2003, 04:43 PM
Am I missing something?
Wasn’t it one of the passenger’s families that filed a law suet against LA County first?
So WHY don’t you call the family members that are suing and complain to them?
HTMs suit is secondary to the problem not primary
Steve maid the mistake not his family so let them live in peace
you are punishing the family for something they did not do and that’s not right

Wicky
03-10-2003, 06:10 PM
Let me get this straight. The article claims HTM is filing suit against the county. If the suit is won, every single one of us on this board WILL be affected in one way or another. Even without a decision in HTM's favor, we will all be affected.
I'd say it is plain old selfishness on HTM's part and the other families who filed suit. No amount of money will bring their loved ones back. It was not the county's fault. Even if they did allow this to happen, they were only allowing HTM to research and develop for a business that put food on the table. That food will now be taken away from other HiPo manufacturers. Now, without Steve, HTM is shitting in their own back yard and it STINKS of greed. I gave money to the HTM fund and I didn't recieve any kind of THANK YOU from any surviving HTM family members nor did I expect any.
SD, I understand what you are saying but, we are now talking about your privelages and my privelages taken away because of money hungry attorneys reaction to an ACCIDENT. The attorney's could careless about you or I. All they care about is their financial statement Sad but, true.

Seadog
03-10-2003, 09:16 PM
You relly cannot blame HTM for following the advice of their lawyers. In every case, you can be sure some shylock is the one that initiated the lawsuit with all the reasons why it should be done. I personnaly think that we should all have the ABA symbol with a target around it posted on everything. As I type this, I have seen two lousy commercials from law firms with outrageous claims.

ssmike
03-10-2003, 09:25 PM
Wicky:
Click here to see what else the lawyers are trying to ruin!! (http://www.tlpj.org/pressreleases/sprietsma_12-03-02.htm) Wicky,
You need someone to explain this one to you....That lawsuit is just about "preemption", nothing more.
It does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT, create a new avenue or method of recovery.
Get a clue.

sandblasted
03-10-2003, 09:29 PM
Seadog:
You relly cannot blame HTM for following the advice of their lawyers. In every case, you can be sure some shylock is the one that initiated the lawsuit with all the reasons why it should be done. I personnaly think that we should all have the ABA symbol with a target around it posted on everything. As I type this, I have seen two lousy commercials from law firms with outrageous claims. The American Bar Association pegs the number of lawyers in the U.S. at 1 million...
The U.S. has 70% of the world's lawyers but only 5% of the world's population...
We have 30 times more lawsuits annually than Japan, one of our primary trade competitors.
American business spends billions of dollars a year fighting lawsuits and trying to make products that will not cause liability lawsuits.
and you know what? all those costs end up getting paid by the American consumer in one way or another..higher taxes to pay for lawsuits against L.A. County for this HTM accident is a perfect example of that..

Wicky
03-11-2003, 04:53 AM
ssmike:
Wicky:
Click here to see what else the lawyers are trying to ruin!! (http://www.tlpj.org/pressreleases/sprietsma_12-03-02.htm) Wicky,
You need someone to explain this one to you....That lawsuit is just about "preemption", nothing more.
It does NOT, repeat, DOES NOT, create a new avenue or method of recovery.
Get a clue. Sorry I don't have a law degree but,
I see more laws everyday protecting me from myself, thanks to bloodsucking greedy lawyers like yourself. IF that is being clueless than I'd rather be poor and clueless than a rich psuedo-intellectual like you. Doh.
Signed,
Clueless
[ March 11, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

OC-PARTYCAT
03-13-2003, 09:43 AM
Ive been in several lawsuits regarding construction. The only ones that win are the lawyers. They are a brotherhood that takes everyone for a ride. Everytime I walk into the courtroom with a lawyer, they look at each other and just smile. It is a joke, but its reality. When ever possible lawsuits should be avoided and things settled out of court. Ive expressed my opinion on the issue and still agree that the families of the passengers in the boat have every right to seek compensation from HTM (the driver).
As far as HTM sueing the county, I will not comment on that anymore.

Wicky
03-13-2003, 09:52 AM
Thank you OC party cat.
Clueless,
Wicky