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HighRoller
02-27-2003, 08:37 PM
Mr.Spaise,
In the latest magazine you defended the actions of ***boat with regards to what we(the readers) saw as constant flattery of boats that might or might not deserve it.You supposedly backed up your commentary with excerpts from the latest evaluations.While this on the surface may have been justified,I took offense at your arrogant and condescending attitude towards us.(The apparently uneducated readers who don't read the magazine after all.)
To begin with,Mr.Spaise,the accusations of many are not unfounded,in my opinion.Wasn't there a boat in last year's evaluations that was so dangerous to drive you crowed about how you were going to take"a deep,dark bite"out of someone's ass?When,and in which issue did ***boat sink it's teeth into this manufacturer's hide??
Next,I'd like to know which section of your readership can identify with the testing of boats over 200,000 dollars?Not many,from what I see on the boards.Yet you dedicate a whole issue to this subject,and maybe this is where you get the feeling many of us aren't reading.How many readers have the resources to pay for over 100 gallons of fuel an hour,a tractor trailer to tow it with not to mention an oversize permit in many staes!!I bring this issue up because I know it must be nice as a staffer to get behind the wheel of a boat like this,but isn't the objective of ***boat to try to bring issues to the reader that they can identify with?
I have no problem with the assertion that the testing staff is hard working and very experienced.Indeed they are.I'm sure between all of them they have driven about every make model and type of boat on the planet.But that might be a disadvantage as well.A boat that is seen as"a pleasure"to drive by an experienced ex-racer might be a handfull to a novice boater.Therefore,I have repeatedly floated the idea of having at least one novice boater on in the mix for each evaluation so we know what he thought driving the boat for the first time without possibly having ever driven a boat like that.Don't you think boat manufacturers would kill for information like that?It's a win-win-win situation for boaters,***boat and the builders if,that is,***boat allows his unadulterated and unedited comments to reach the pages.
In conclusion,I have no wish to run HB into the ground.I'm not bragging but I've spent all of my 31 years as a boater in one way or another so I think I have an idea of what ***boating is about.It's not about big expensive boats,it's about people.All I want is a magazine that publishes information,stories and features that are relevant to these people.Of course,that's coming from a guy who admittedly did not read every page of the March issue.Sorry,offshore boats bore me.....

ACCEPTENCE
02-27-2003, 08:48 PM
Interesting thoughts, don't hold back.
More interesting will be the responce you recieve.

sandblasted
02-27-2003, 08:52 PM
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. many readers feel the same way but what's the alternative? Trailer Boats? wink

skeepwerkzaz
02-27-2003, 10:02 PM
I agree, mostly. I think that hot boating is more of a state of mind than a state of the wallet. REAL ***boating to me is about people being the main focus. I built it, WE built it, HE/SHE helped me, So and So hooked me up etc etc. I will go over and look at a guys boat like mine WAY before I go and look at some rich A-holes 200K Fountain. I know the guy like me has some effort into his and not just a big bill-fold. Hot Boat used to have ALOT of Tech type articles back in the 80's, now that is relegated to a few pages under "Jet Tech" or the likes, and unfortunately these precious pages (which by the way is one of the ONLY reasons I buy the mag) have some doorknob wondering why his boat is slow.
On the other hand, it is there business to sell not just magazines, but ad-space aswell. The guys that can afford big ads, make big boats, and Larry Flint lots of $.
Finally, is that really all that bad? They provide us with this forum, that is WAY better that the mag could ever be. We have a new "virtual mag" every day, not 11 months out of the year. I also think that our Bikini issue is better. They have been using the same old girls for years, and someone is always posting a new pic of a new hot chick. This place rocks, let the $$$$ guy spend his money on the Offshore issues.
Clay
[ February 27, 2003, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

***boat
02-27-2003, 10:11 PM
"A letter to Kevin Spaise... "
Did you send this to him or did you want me to? Kevin does not read the boards so if you do want me to forward something to him let me know. Alternativly if you do not want to post it click on this link for an email contact. http://www.***boat.net/contact.htm

Mandelon
02-27-2003, 10:12 PM
Somfin to be said for dat!!!
http://www.***boat.net/home_page/bikini_rotator/big/01[1].jpg
http://www.***boat.net/home_page/bikini_rotator/big/20[1].jpg
http://www.***boat.net/home_page/bikini_rotator/big/10[1].jpg
[ February 27, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Mandelon ]

Charley
02-27-2003, 10:20 PM
Ya know..... I personally am a little sick and tired of the constant bitching about the magazine.... you don't like it????? 2 scenarios.... make yer own magazine..... or .....don't buy this one.... ok fine a little e-public opinion here and there is all good but the reality is that you can't make everyone happy ...period.... your'e screen name is high roller but your'e afraid of expensive boats??? did I miss something? The real deal is that Magazines are supposed to give us all some thing to relate to and something to Dream of..... HOT BOAT does both... if you dont believe me look at the current reader rides....
http://www.***boat.net/hbcove/index.cfm
13 of the 15 boats featured are 25' or less RIVER boats...Which is totally cool but WTF?? is it ok to have some "DREAM" boats in the magazine too guys?? :confused:

superdave013
02-27-2003, 10:26 PM
Charley:
Ya know..... I personally am a little sick and tired of the constant bitching about the magazine.... you don't like it????? 2 scenarios.... make yer own magazine..... or .....don't buy this one.... ok fine a little e-public opinion here and there is all good but the reality is that you can't make everyone happy ...period.... your'e screen name is high roller but your'e afraid of expensive boats??? did I miss something? The real deal is that Magazines are supposed to give us all some thing to relate to and something to Dream of..... HOT BOAT does both... if you dont believe me look at the current reader rides....
http://www.***boat.net/hbcove/index.cfm
13 of the 15 boats featured are 25' or less RIVER boats...Which is totally cool but WTF?? is it ok to have some "DREAM" boats in the magazine too guys?? :confused: ditto! If you don't like it don't read it. If you think you can do it better I'll be the first one to read yours too.

mbrown2
02-27-2003, 10:31 PM
Ditto..The magazine is trying to do the right thing and find a balance....It seems like there is a lot of "biting the hand that feeds you" going on around here....Everyone has options, and opinions, and whatever they put in the magazine is really not that important...it ain't like they are curing world hunger with my subscription fee, and I bet the couple billion people in China don't give a shit what goes in hot boat...
Also, if they only put 25' and under, Charlie might not get his boat in the mag j/k. :)

Charley
02-27-2003, 10:34 PM
mbrown2:
Ditto..The magazine is trying to do the right thing and find a balance....It seems like there is a lot of "biting the hand that feeds you" going on around here....Everyone has options, and opinions, and whatever they put in the magazine is really not that important...it ain't like they are curing world hunger with my subscription fee, and I bet the couple billion people in China don't give a shit what goes in hot boat...
Also, if they only put 25' and under, Charlie might not get his boat in the mag j/k. :) bastard
:D

Jordy
02-27-2003, 10:36 PM
mbrown2:
Also, if they only put 25' and under, Charlie might not get his boat in the mag j/k. :) Toby still would. Wouldn't that be close enough??? :D :D :D

mbrown2
02-27-2003, 10:37 PM
jordanpaulk:
mbrown2:
Also, if they only put 25' and under, Charlie might not get his boat in the mag j/k. :) Toby still would. Wouldn't that be close enough??? :D :D :D LMAO...I could not let him get down off his 29' soap box without a heckle.. :)

Jordy
02-27-2003, 10:38 PM
and anytime we're giving Charley a hard time about his boat, we have to share it with Toby. :D

HighRoller
02-27-2003, 10:44 PM
Skeep,that's exactly my point.FroggyStyle has a"***boat".He designed the paint,stereo,and pretty much everything to his specs.I am more impressed by his boat than any of the yachts in the latest issue.I may have a modest jet boat,but if something goes wrong I know how to handle it and if someone asks me a question I can answer it down to the inch.I'm a ***boater and the guy with the 26 Daytona and Teague 740 is a boughtboater.I love to screw with these guys and ask them all the tech questions about the engine when everyone's around."wow,how big is that engine?"
"Dude it's like a 600,it's fast."
"Really,damn that blower looks pretty big"
"Yeah it's like a 600"
"Those aluminum heads look pretty sweet,what are they?"
"They're 600 edelbrocks with the cnc valve job and the three angle port polish exhaust guides"
"Wow.It sounds like it has a big cam too"
"Yeah,it's fat.It's a 600 lifter with a three quarter cam"
"Sweet,what kinda drive you runnin?"
"It's that new IMCO Bmax Bravo 600 with hydraulic prop and trim drive"
"Damn,I bet it hauls ass"
"Yeah dude,I hit like 150 yesterday"

bordsmnj
02-27-2003, 10:54 PM
idea hey if i bring both of my boats(37'total)can i be in some poker runs this year? :p
coundn't resist :D

Mandelon
02-27-2003, 11:14 PM
Only if you're running 600's.... :D :D

Sleek-Jet
02-27-2003, 11:15 PM
One thing the magazine has over the forums is this: No matter what is on or between the cover, it's still easier to take the magazine to the crapper than the computer. :D

HighRoller
02-27-2003, 11:25 PM
Ever heard of a laptop?

bordsmnj
02-27-2003, 11:35 PM
no,does it run on 600"s?? eek!

bordsmnj
02-27-2003, 11:36 PM
Hey mandelon,how bout if i put a three fifty in each one(working or not)???? Thats 700? pig_flyi
[ February 27, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: bordsmnj ]

Kilrtoy
02-27-2003, 11:38 PM
I have to disagree with CHARLEY and the rest of the people that followed him. If I want to dream and don't get me wrong, I do, I will buy the late Bob Nordskogs' POWERBOAT MAGAZINE. Hot Boat is geared to the grass roots boater and a small step above, referring to new river and lake boats (22 and under)or at least when I started subscribing it was. Once you get to 25 and above you are speaking of OFFSHORE. The overwhelming majority wants small boats. Larry has the money, what happen to what the people want, isnt that what he started his platform on. Yes, I know it was also about the Ammendments and so forth, but that was his basis. :D

Froggystyle
02-27-2003, 11:48 PM
Last year we had a discussion as to whether or not my boat was to be considered a "Hot Boat" or not. I guess by virtue of it in the magazine it would pretty much be a given, but I personally don't consider it one.
I have a 21' Daycruiser. It is essentially a fast, sport-utility vehicle for the water. Safe, roomy, not underpowered, good handling, dry and catchy graphics and stereo. All are traits of a nice tricked out Yukon or Durango. I don't consider a Durango a Hot Rod either by the way.
A Hot Rod is a 32' coupe with a tricked out blown engine. It is a big block Chevelle with tubs. It is a dumped Cheese Whiz orange 55 Chevy. It is graphics, engine and overkill.
A Hot Boat, in my opinion is under 19'. Some 21' V-drives apply, but only because they have OTT headers and shiny motors you have to clean water spots off of. A Hot Boat should have room for no more than four comfortably (but you have crammed 8 in) and your colors should be as loud as the headers. Outboards, no matter how fast are not Hot Boats. Just as a Ninja can never be a Hog. Different genre.
Maybe.... MAYBE 30 of those boats were bought from manufacturers this year. What was built was not built for a huge profit, and I would wager ended up costing the manufacturers money somewhere down the road. You build those boats for love, not money.
With no sales, there will be no advertising. With no advertising, there will be no evaluations. No evaluations, no writeups.
I hand it to Hot Boat. There is exactly zero advertising money involved with printing an article about a small boat. It is space you could have gotten some money for from the Laveys and DCB's of this world. But they do put the features in. They do pay for the shoots, and they do pay for the writeups. That is 100% in deference to you, the gentle reader.
Tough balancing act. Stay afloat, or stick to your roots.
Stay afloat is my answer.

Kilrtoy
02-27-2003, 11:50 PM
RIVERDAVE,
I have to disagree with you, I buy Superchevy and Mustangs 5.0. If those two Rags were to talk about Saleens 350K car or the new 150K Corvette, I would be pissed and you better be sure every subscriber would let them know. To compare H.B to Car and Driver is wrong, compare them to POWERBOAT. I BUY POWERBOAT TO DREAM AND ASPIRE OF ONE DAY, I BUY ***boat TO RELATE WITH.
H.B get back to grass roots, what the average AMERICAN MAN can afford and work on himself. boxed

Kwicherbichen
02-27-2003, 11:53 PM
I say burn your bras and don't try this LINK (http://www.kwicherbichens.com)

HBjet
02-27-2003, 11:54 PM
RiverDave:
the vast majority of themGood Dave.....Nice Save!
HBjet :D

HBjet
02-27-2003, 11:57 PM
Kilrtoy:
RIVERDAVE,
I have to disagree with you, I buy Superchevy and Mustangs 5.0. If those two Rags were to talk about Saleens 350K car or the new 150K Corvette, I would be pissed and you better be sure every subscriber would let them know. To compare H.B to Car and Driver is wrong, compare them to POWERBOAT. I BUY POWERBOAT TO DREAM AND ASPIRE OF ONE DAY, I BUY ***boat TO RELATE WITH.
H.B get back to grass roots, what the average AMERICAN MAN can afford and work on himself. boxed Dude, go to bed, you need to drive to Vegas tomorrow...

bordsmnj
02-27-2003, 11:59 PM
ah. froggystyle,kilrtoy thats hitting it right in there.

HBjet
02-28-2003, 12:08 AM
Froggystyle:
Last year we had a discussion as to whether or not my boat was to be considered a "Hot Boat" or not. I guess by virtue of it in the magazine it would pretty much be a given, but I personally don't consider it one.
I have a 21' Daycruiser. It is essentially a fast, sport-utility vehicle for the water. Safe, roomy, not underpowered, good handling, dry and catchy graphics and stereo. All are traits of a nice tricked out Yukon or Durango. I don't consider a Durango a Hot Rod either by the way.
A Hot Rod is a 32' coupe with a tricked out blown engine. It is a big block Chevelle with tubs. It is a dumped Cheese Whiz orange 55 Chevy. It is graphics, engine and overkill.
A Hot Boat, in my opinion is under 19'. Some 21' V-drives apply, but only because they have OTT headers and shiny motors you have to clean water spots off of. A Hot Boat should have room for no more than four comfortably (but you have crammed 8 in) and your colors should be as loud as the headers. Outboards, no matter how fast are not Hot Boats. Just as a Ninja can never be a Hog. Different genre.
Maybe.... MAYBE 30 of those boats were bought from manufacturers this year. What was built was not built for a huge profit, and I would wager ended up costing the manufacturers money somewhere down the road. You build those boats for love, not money.
With no sales, there will be no advertising. With no advertising, there will be no evaluations. No evaluations, no writeups.
I hand it to Hot Boat. There is exactly zero advertising money involved with printing an article about a small boat. It is space you could have gotten some money for from the Laveys and DCB's of this world. But they do put the features in. They do pay for the shoots, and they do pay for the writeups. That is 100% in deference to you, the gentle reader.
Tough balancing act. Stay afloat, or stick to your roots.
Stay afloat is my answer. I like what you said Wes. How many Ford dealers today are pushing to sell 67' Shelby's? None of them, but they are still selling the basic Mustang. Not a lot of boat MFG's are building Hot Rod Jet Boats, but they are still building your basic family jet that have the option to become each owners definition of a hot boat, like yout boat Wes. If it had stock marine power and the standard stereo package and regular interior lighting, then most of use wouldn't consider it a hot boat, but since you have added you personal touches and mods, you turned into a hot boat (in my opinion) with Big power, Big stereo, and Big apperence mods.
F*%k It! If it's too loud for the neighbors and makes girls get wet, It's a Hot Boat! :D
HBjet
[ February 28, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: HBjet ]

Ian
02-28-2003, 12:23 AM
What a great topic! Kuddos to Froggy for a great reply! I, like Froggy, am in the middle on this topic. A few years back I was really into water skiing, we have a Mastercraft and used to belong to one of those private water ski lakes in Bakersfield and I did plenty of tournament skiing. One of the benefits of tournament skiing is you get a chance to ski behind all the boats; you soon realize the best boats (Mastercraft, Ski Nautique, Malibu) and you also realize the worst boats (I'll leave those out so as not to offend anyone). We'll every year Water Ski magazine comes out with their boat review and wouldn't you know it they all get great reviews. As a young kid I didn't understand this because I know some of the boats getting five stars are garbage. Now that I've grown up I realize magazines are just trying to make a buck like us, and we all know it's not wise to bite the hand that feeds you.
In the case of Water Ski magazine, as a family we decided we didn't want the mag anymore because the pages were filled with Sea Doo adds and false reviews; as a Hot Boat reader we have that same option, but lets not forget all the great things Hot Boat has done for us, mainly this forum. I too would love more articles on Hot Boats, mainly v-drives, the new boats really are like SUV's for the lake, but that's whats popular so thats what creates the revenue. Ofcourse many of us want more article on boats that cost less than $20,000, thats what a lot of us own, but if you've been to Havasu lately you know their are plenty of people out there running boats that cost in excess of $100,000 and I'm sure they could care less about a 76 flatbottom. I thinks it's important not to bag on anyone for giving their opinion as long as it's constructive, let's not forget we're all Hot Boaters. Sure on one side their are guys like Charley with boats that are worth four times as much as every car I've ever owned combined (sweet boat) and on the other side their are guys like my dad and I with less exspensive boats, but we all like having fun.

HighRoller
02-28-2003, 12:24 AM
Froggy,I hear what you're saying.But a few months ago the ***boat of the month was a 103MPH family jetboat.It got 2 pages and probably cost 60,000 to build while a fleet of cats got about 30 pages or more.ALL of them cost more than the jet and only a couple of them ran faster.So which is the REAL ***boat?A boat that accelerates from 0-60 in less than 7 seconds and runs 103mph top end or a boat that runs 15 seconds 0-60 and tops out at 110mph for twice the cost??I know you have told me you've blown off outboards and 25 foot runabouts all day at the river with your jet.Do you still think they are ***boats when they cost more than your boat????

HighRoller
02-28-2003, 12:47 AM
Blue is definitely not my color RIO.I'm just venting because I remember the old days of ***boat and I'm a diehard traditionalist.Trust me,if I had the backing of a few people I'd have a magazine dedicated to REAL ***boating and ***boats.To start with:
Mead,Mohave,Laughlin,Topock,SandBar,Havasu,Parker ,Blythe,San Antonio,Nacimiento,Sacramento Delta, McClure,Shasta,and any others who were a hotbed of ***boating.In other words,any places where ***boats were a majority.30ft boats and longer are for the ocean.Guess you got in just under the wire Charley!!!!

Charley
02-28-2003, 01:55 AM
Well then.... fair enough....First off Riodog...I apologize....just seemed like I was getting called out...If that wasn't yer intention...I'm truly sorry.... Now.... I'm not gonna pretend to know everything about boats, I don't! but I am a River Rat, I love hanging there, Iv'e been going to the lake/river since 1973( I was 7)....had my first boat in 85 (I was 19) and since then never been boatless...well except for a few months recently :mad: ...I guess my point is I love the river, I love the people...newbies or not as long as they have fun and have some respect for my wife my kids and mother earth.....Oh and I love the new bigger style boats/cats too..I'm a hot-boater, like it or not....it takes guys like you and guys like me to make ***boat magazine what it is... I will talk boats with anyone, I just love boats........Highroller I guess I can relate to your feelings if I put it into other terms..... remember mr. Neil Young singing " Hey hey, my my .....Rock and Roll will never die"
well as much as I want to hold onto that....it's gonna! Rap/hip hop is here it's what the kids like, we hate it....thats why they like it.....Rock is probably gonna die..... I hate it ....but I'm not gonna deny it, just gotta deal with it.....I hear ya about old classic jet boats they are cool, but times change..... wink maybe we need to get you a ride in a Mach 26 or a 25 daytona eek! eek! :D

HighRoller
02-28-2003, 02:00 AM
Very well put Charley.And don't think I'm slammin you in any of my posts because you have an expensive boat.I'm a great fan of the capitalist system and own my own biz like you.I'd love to take a ride in a Mach 26 as long as it accelerates from a dead stop to 60mph in less than 8 seconds and does over 100mph.That's my idea of a ***boat.Can you hook me up?

Backtanner
02-28-2003, 03:50 AM
First...
Charley:
The real deal is that Magazines are supposed to give us all some thing to relate to and something to Dream of..... I think the thing going back and forth here is that HB is trying to tell us all that we all dream of some 40' monstrosity. Not true. My dream boat will never be bigger than about 22', and I know I can't be the only one. When I go to the river, the small hippie boats still have the majority but probably don't get even half the advertising. Yes I'm sure that there is is a much larger profit margin for the larger boats, but I wonder how many of these sell compared to smaller models.
Second ...
Froggystyle:
A Hot Rod is a 32' coupe That is one huge coupe. J/K :D

XTRM22
02-28-2003, 06:14 AM
Man there are so may opinions and feelings to respond to, and so many cheap shots available :-),
it's like going to going to Furrs cafeteria! Ok, seriously "Hot Boat" is a state of mind to a degree. I think my 19' 350 mag Galaxy was a hot boat, I'm sure my 22' DCB Extreme is a ***boat. I'm also certain that both Frogystyle's old boat and new line of boats, and Charley's soon-to-be 29' Mach are ***boats. I read thre Mag cover to cover every month, and look forward to getting it. Seems like cheap entertainment to me, so I do have to agree with some earlier statemwnts, if you're tired of it quit reading it! Finally, don't pick on Charley for getting on his soap box, it's the only way he can reach the key board! eek! Oh no! I didn't just say that did I? And I have to see Charley tomorrow. LOL
***boat, Love it or Leave it! :D :D :D
Chuck

roostwear
02-28-2003, 07:08 AM
The never ending debate surfaces again! My take on this is similar to many of yours, but ya gotta realize NONE of us have the same definition of what a ***boat is. For me, it's up to a 20 footer and built BEFORE the 90's. I guess my definition is arbitrary.... can't tell you why a 21 footer isn't a ***boat, but it doesn't matter. It just isn't (for me). I've seen many boats with TT's and they are ***boats,as well as many more with OT's that are too. That doesn't apply to my definition. It's kinda like my my definition of a hotrod.... I like Fords with big blocks, and they haven't built one worth a damn since 1970. Could a 5 liter kick my 68 BB fastbacks ass in a race? Possibly, but it doesn't change the fact that I have a hotrod, and the 5 liter is a post 70 production car.
I posted a picture of "Riverrod" magazine and quite a few of you jumped on it wanting to know where you could buy it. Obviously you can't (it was made to test a theory), but it showed there is demand for something like it. You won't see that content in ***boat magazine, because it has been diluted to appeal to the masses. The typical success story. The only way Riverrod magazine (or something like it) hits the newsstands is if it is started fresh.
We all know how it goes in a capitalist society... if you don't like it, boycott it to change it, or buy something else. Unless it seriously hits the pocketbook, the only changes will be superficial at best. I doubt ***boat will change their formula much. They feel it works the way it is. Add a little old content to try to appease the bitchers and moaners, but DON'T threaten the advertising dollars. That is the definition of mediocrity. There are some that are working on a new publication this is what ***boat was. Will it be exactly what each of us want? Never.............
Sorry for the log winded post, but if RD can do it, so can I!

Zuumer
02-28-2003, 08:20 AM
WOW...pretty interesting thread ! !
Everybody step back and take a looook...
Think we could do this in Iraq or Afganistan or ..... ? ? ?
Sure is GREAT to be an AMERICAN and have the ability to express our differing opinions OPENLY.
God Bless America.

skeepwerkzaz
02-28-2003, 09:37 AM
My new ***boat will be a 32' coupe with every g-damn 600 available. :D :D
Really though, I think that we are all at fault for the demise of "Hot Boating," none of us can keep our traps shut about how cool the rivers and lakes are. These ultra $$$ idiots think that a 42' cig is JUST RIGHT for the Parker Strip. Lets start being super a-holes to everyone and scare them away :p :p

mbrown2
02-28-2003, 09:41 AM
I am going to see if Infomaniac can build me one of those 600's, so I can hook it to my Imco SC 600, and then my Mach 600 will be the baddest 600 on the water... :)
Hey, anybody try that new Coors Lite 600; low carbs, big buzz..cool :)

XLGPP
02-28-2003, 09:55 AM
Skeep,that's exactly my point.FroggyStyle has a"***boat".He designed the paint,stereo,and pretty much everything to his specs.I am more impressed by his boat than any of the yachts in the latest issue.I may have a modest jet boat,but if something goes wrong I know how to handle it and if someone asks me a question I can answer it down to the inch.I'm a ***boater and the guy with the 26 Daytona and Teague 740 is a boughtboater.I love to screw with these guys and ask them all the tech questions about the engine when everyone's around."wow,how big is that engine?"
"Dude it's like a 600,it's fast."
"Really,damn that blower looks pretty big"
"Yeah it's like a 600"
"Those aluminum heads look pretty sweet,what are they?"
"They're 600 edelbrocks with the cnc valve job and the three angle port polish exhaust guides"
"Wow.It sounds like it has a big cam too"
"Yeah,it's fat.It's a 600 lifter with a three quarter cam"
"Sweet,what kinda drive you runnin?"
"It's that new IMCO Bmax Bravo 600 with hydraulic prop and trim drive"
"Damn,I bet it hauls ass"
"Yeah dude,I hit like 150 yesterday"
So are you saying that, just because I dont know all the technical stuff about motors that I am not a valid boater??? I grew up raised by my mother so I never really learned about engines. I'll be the first to admit I dont know shit about alot of the technical aspects, BUT i do love to be on the water. I started with a p.o.s. mariah and then worked my ass off and saved till I could get the boat I wanted (Cougar 27mtr) I get twelve vacation days a year, which I plan out every one of them for "boating". Yeah I spent alot of $ on my boat, and yeah I dont know every ratio and demension. BUT I HAVE WORKED MY ASS OFF TO GET THIS BOAT AND BOATING IS THE ONLY RELIEF I HAVE FROM THE THINGS I SEE BAD IN THIS WORLD.... so dont tell me im not a real boater.

HavasuDreamin'
02-28-2003, 10:23 AM
How did this topic go from "being offended" by Spaise's article, to the "same old" big boat vs. small boat thing? :confused:
We have had the big boat vs. small boat argument on the boards more times than I care to remember. Nothing is ever resolved, and as Charley said the bitching gets old.
Personally, I thought there were good parts of the most recent issue and bad parts. I skipped the boat tests, but read the informative articles.
This leads me to Spaise's editorial. I thought he came off as an arrogant, out of touch, jerk. On page 10, right column, near the top, he says....."If you're an informed custom buyer, you're not buying bad boats. The reputable builders, the ones you read about in these pages, aren't building them."
We all know this is completely false. People seem to be getting screwed right and left on the board. Take American Offshore for example. ***boat has tested several of these boats, and some of the employee's of the company are trying to fix the problems created by a fraudulant owner. How about the multiple people on the boards that have complained about M*GIC, and C*BRA.
Spaise's article was offensive and way off base! As for the perpetual argument regarding big boats vs. small boats, I don't care for the offshore mega $$$$$ boats, but I understand why they are in there and read the other sections of the magazine.
:cool:

1stepcloser
02-28-2003, 10:42 AM
Charley:
Ya know..... I personally am a little sick and tired of the constant bitching about the magazine.... you don't like it? Don't buy it.
The real deal is that Magazines are supposed to give us all some thing to relate to and something to Dream of..... HOT BOAT does both. I agree, completely.

cigarette1
02-28-2003, 11:48 AM
I stopped my subscription to Hot Boat because there WERE NOT enough big $ offshore boats covered. Now I go to the newsstand and browse through the latest issue and if there is something that intrest me, I'll buy it.
I'm older than most of you and still can't afford a $200k+ boat, but that doesn't stop me from dreaming and wanting one. When the day comes that I can afford to buy one, I'll be an educated buyer.
Like someone refered to above, I don't buy Road&Track to drool over the latest Grand Am.
I do ride on some of the finest big $ offshore boats in the SoCal area and then get back in my (once was a big $ boat) offshore PROJECT without being jealous and Playa Hatin (some rich A-hole $200k Fountain). Everyone with a $200k boat is not rich, their priorities are just different.
Don't hate the Playas' Hate the Game

sandblasted
02-28-2003, 12:44 PM
Like I said earlier...Whats the alternative for us? Trailer Boats?
I do think ***boat has drifted too far into the "offshore boats" but I can live with it as long as they continue to have articles on jets, v-drives and other smaller boats...all I'm looking for is some good balance of older customer hot rod boats and newer boats..
As too anything over 25ft not being a ***boat, what's up with that?...I can't afford one right now but a Howard 26ft cat with a blown motor definetly makes my list of ***boats!

djm-or
02-28-2003, 01:24 PM
I like "high-Rollers" message to the magazine "elite".I used to have a subscibtion to Powerboat and we've all seen how they've changed over the years.. Same with "Hot Boat", slowly they are going to the money too, not to what got them there. I cancelled my subscrip. a few years ago. I am a typical "hot boater" who scrimps and saves for a $500 upgrade and wonders how someone can order a $ 75 k crate motor...

SoCalOffshore
02-28-2003, 03:14 PM
If some of you are correct and the only "true" hot boat is a 21 foot or under jet boat, then why didn't they name the magazine "Jet Boat" to begin with. I think they chose not to, because a "hot boat" is not so limited in length or propolsion. Maybe the term "hot boat" is all inclusive of large or small, but limited only in terms of high performance. I can think of many 19 or 21 foot boats that would not qualify. As I can think of many 30 foot and larger that would not qualify as well.
Can we all just get along?

mbrown2
02-28-2003, 03:28 PM
Not sure about ***boat tests, but there is a magazine out there that covers ***boats, build-ups, projects, unfinished boats, and parts...its called Boat Trader.

68campbell
02-28-2003, 03:35 PM
One thing most of us "small boaters" have to remember...
Big, high dollar boats suck until we can afford one for ourselves.
P.S. I will always have a keep a small boat in my armada.

CA Stu
02-28-2003, 04:51 PM
skeepwerkzaz:
These ultra $$$ idiots think that a 42' cig is JUST RIGHT for the Parker Strip. Lets start being super a-holes to everyone and scare them away :p :p Or just take them out to the parking lot and give them a tune-up. :mad:
CA Stu

Charley
02-28-2003, 05:58 PM
HighRoller:
Very well put Charley.And don't think I'm slammin you in any of my posts because you have an expensive boat.I'm a great fan of the capitalist system and own my own biz like you.I'd love to take a ride in a Mach 26 as long as it accelerates from a dead stop to 60mph in less than 8 seconds and does over 100mph.That's my idea of a ***boat.Can you hook me up? AH hell i dunno, my last one had a 600 something in it though and it did like wheelies.... :D

***boat
02-28-2003, 06:15 PM
This topic's title was "A letter to Kevin Spaise", but you never sent it to him? My point being that if you want to send something look at the bottom of this page and click on the contact button!

HighRoller
03-02-2003, 04:14 AM
What???Dude it took a lot of effort to compose that thing.First I had to down a 6 pack just to wash down what Spaise was feeding us in HotYacht,err ***boat.Then another 6 pack while I browsed the online dictionary and thesaurus for impressive words to make me sound articulate.2 glasses of Jack and Coke later I had that thing whipped out and was in the process of posting it when I passed out.Luckily my head landed on the mouse and right clicked it!!Now you want me to duplicate that effort?My liver would file a restraining order against me if I even thought about it!!!!But I'll see what I can do.....

Mandelon
03-02-2003, 06:29 AM
Cut and paste, bro, cut and paste!! Click it and forget it!!! wink

GlastronGuy
03-02-2003, 07:46 AM
Hot Boat has a magazine?

HighRoller
03-03-2003, 01:22 AM
Hey Charley I have a pair of blower motors for sale.600's with tunnel ram blowers and carbureted fuel injectors.Nitro system,custom milled hydraulic flat tappet roller cams and forged billet pistons with shot peened aluminum rods.Bored and stroked block with line bored water passages and reverse flow intercooled dry sump cooling systems.I also had the rods and mains dyno tested and cnc etched.I'm warning you,these things make serious power.I had to run dual hydraulic props and stainless IMCO drives on my boat!!Let me know if you're interested :D

h2oski2fast
03-03-2003, 11:38 AM
I hate to break it to everyone, but the prices of boats are not going to stop climbing. Most of the boaters now adays want to go fast. Going fast costs money. Take a look at one of the more popular boats hear on the west cost, 25 or 26 (depending on the year boat it is) Eliminator Daytona. Most of those boats don't leave the factory under $90,000. And the average would be well over the 100k mark. A boat that is under 24ft, in this day and age, is considered a novelty item, not practical at all. Basically like 34 Ford that was mentioned earlier a weekend driver, the 19' flatties are just the same only they just get driven earlier morn or late late afternoon. I have nothing against little sized boats, as I have had my share, incuding a 18' 6" Emkin Flat with a tunnel rammed 454 and a 21' Connely Daycruiser with a twin turbo 454. Now in another post they would not concider the Connely to be a "Hot Boat" for the simple fact that it seats 6 people, but the boat did well over 100mph. I currently have a 27' Advantage Victory with a 509ci twin turbo gentry motor in it. Do I concider it a "Hot Boat"? You bet your A$$! Was it expensive? Well, to me, yeah. To others, no. Its a relative term. I chose to get into a business where I could afford the "expensive" toys that I have.
I love seeing all the big, bad, over the top boats! It gives me something to strive for. Yes, I hope one day to be able to drive a $1 million Skater over the century and a half mark. I know just about every reader of Hot Boat is looking to squeeze a few extra mhp out of the boat. Where do you think all the technology, fiberglass layup and drive units (drive, being a general term) comes from? Do you think it comes from the 19'-21' range of boats (which was concidered by one to be the only "Hot Boats") and trickles up to the Fountains, Outerlimits and Stakers? I highly doubt it! Shiada even layed up a few carbon fiber boats. Do you think they came up with the idea, no the using of that technology in boats came from the Offshore industry. You may not like offshore boating, and that's your opinion, but I do. I've talked with Jim Wilkes (as he has been a friend of the family many years), he was saying how the V-drive tech section of the magazine was getting smaller. He went one to say that it was because there was not as much interest in boats with that technology. I since have notice that more people are getting renewed interest in them.
Should a magazine limit itself to a certain genre of boating that is not mainsteam? In my opinion, NO. Offshore style boating seems to becoming more mainstream than the 19' to 21' "Hot boats". An example of this would be: How many companies are there that build flat bottoms, jets, v-drives and small boats in general? There are a handful in this day. And, of those who do, do they also build a boat over 30'? Many do, and there are some that don;t even bother any more, because it is not financially rewarding. My third question would be: What percentage of sales are the smaller crafts compared to the bigger crafts? I think it's pretty obivious what their answer would be. There are many manufacturers that started in the boating industry when the smaller boat was fad. Now have moved into boats that are substancialy (sp?) bigger, and many models in between (Hallet 54', Commander 31', Advantage 40', Shiada 32', Cole 28', Howard 28', Sleekcraft/Magic 40' and Nordic 35'). I'll tell you that none of these manufacturers would even have these model boats, if they didn't sell.
The magazines follow the trends, were the money is. After all they do it for 2 reasons. One, because they love every aspect of the sport. And two, because they can earn a living doing what they love. Take either one of those away and there would cease to be a magazine.
My .02
[ March 03, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: h2oski2fast ]

HBCHRIS
03-03-2003, 04:48 PM
HB HAS ATTEMPTED TO TEST SMALLER, MORE REASONABLY PRICED BOATS FOR THE READERS THE LAST 7 YEARS. THE LAST TEST WE ATTEMPTED WAS FOR ENTRY LEVEL BOATS UNDER $30,000.00.
THERE WERE TWO MFR'S THAT SHOWED UP.
THE OLD FORMULA FOR PURCHASING A BOAT USED TO BE $1,000.00 A FOOT. WHICH HELD TRUE UNTIL THE EARLY 90'S.
HOWEVER MOST, IF NOT ALL, MFR'S DETERMINED IT TOOK THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO PRODUCE A 24 FT. BOAT OR BIGGER AND GET $40,000.00 OR MORE THAN PRODUCE A 20FT FOR $21,000.00. THE LARGER THE BOAT, THE MORE AMENITIES CAN BE SOLD. ADDITIONALLY, INSURANCE, LABOR, RENT AND ENGINES COST A LOT MORE.
HB PREFERS THAT SOME OF OUR CLIENTS WOULD BRING SMALLER BOATS, BOTH FOR THE READERS THAT REQUIRE THIS AS WELL AS THE BENEFIT TO THE MFR TO BUILD BRAND LOYALTY AS THE HB READER FLOURISHES FINANCIALLY.
HB USED TO BE A DRAG BOAT RACING MAGAZINE WHICH FEATURED RACING AND PARKER RIVER RUNNER BOATS. NORDIC, RMC, RUSH, KURTIS KRAFT, STRAIGHT LINE, ROGERS, COLE, SANGER, BAKER, KUSTOM KRAFT AND HI-TECH MARINE WERE AMONG THE BOATS FEATURED.
THESE COMPANIES EITHER NO LONGER EXIST OR NO LONGER MAKE ANYTHING REMOTELY CLOSE TO WHAT WAS BUILT BACK THEN.
ADDITIONALLY THE MAGAZINE WAS IN TERRIBLE FINANCIAL SHAPE AND PUBLISHED ABOUT EVERY OTHER MONTH EVEN THOUGH WE WERE MONTHLY.
AS FOR EDITORIAL CONTENT OF THE MAGAZINE, LARRY FLYNT HAS ZERO INPUT. IT IS DETERMINED SOLELY BY THE EDITORIAL STAFF. WE CANNOT FORCE THE BOAT BUILDERS TO BRING PRODUCT THEY NEITHER BUILD OR REFUSE TO FEATURE.
ON A POSITIVE NOTE, READERS OF OLD WILL BE PLEASED WITH UPCOMING ISSUES WITH A NEW SECTION THAT WE HAVE ADDED BASED PARTIALLY ON THE POSTINGS ON ***boat.NET.

GlastronGuy
03-03-2003, 04:52 PM
HBCHRIS:
Hb has attempted to test smaller, more reasonably priced boats for the readers the last 7 years. The last test we attempted was for entry level boats under $30,000.00.
There were two mfr's that showed up.
The old formula for purchasing a boat used to be $1,000.00 a foot. Which held true until the early 90's.
However most, if not all, mfr's determined it took the same amount of time to produce a 24 ft. Boat or bigger and get $40,000.00 or more than produce a 20ft for $21,000.00. The larger the boat, the more amenities can be sold. Additionally, insurance, labor, rent and engines cost a lot more.
Hb prefers that some of our clients would bring smaller boats, both for the readers that require this as well as the benefit to the mfr to build brand loyalty as the hb reader flourishes financially.
Hb used to be a drag boat racing magazine which featured racing and parker river runner boats. Nordic, rmc, rush, kurtis kraft, straight line, rogers, cole, sanger, baker, kustom kraft and hi-tech marine were among the boats featured.
These companies either no longer exist or no longer make anything remotely close to what was built back then.
Additionally the magazine was in terrible financial shape and published about every other month even though we were monthly.
As for editorial content of the magazine, larry flynt has zero input. It is determined solely by the editorial staff. We cannot force the boat builders to bring product they neither build or refuse to feature.
On a positive note, readers of old will be pleased with upcoming issues with a new section that we have added based partially on the postings on ***boat.net.
My ears are ringing.

h2oedits
03-03-2003, 05:31 PM
Reply, letter to Kevin Spaise
Laughlin, I'm sorry you were offended on some level by my tact in pointing out that (a) anyone who is spending money buying a performance boat, as expensive as they are should be an astute buyer, and (b) any astutue buyer can read our test reports and come away with an absolute sense of which ones WE would buy, were we in your shoes.
As to the content of the magazine, the push and pull between advertising and editorial is as old as publishing itself. Our coverage is, to a certain extent, driven by what our advertisers are building. The magazine is an exercise in creativity, a reflection of our sport; it is also a business enterprise, which must change with the market to survive. You may have noticed the shift in recent years to bigger, more expensive boats: curse it, deny it, defile it, or otherwise, but you need only look around to see that the boats that appear in our magazine are the same that are being built right there in Orange County, and the same ones you see at Havasu. (And yes, we dedicated MOST of one issue to offshore boats: would you not agree that at least one eleventh of our readership might be interested in them, despite your aversion to them?
Judging by a lot of the responses in this thread , here's some good news: our May issue, and all issues thereafter, will contain a 24 page HOT BOAT CUSTOM section, which will focus on reader-prepared (or desinged) customs, clean original classics, and anything else that we feel falls within the realm of "hot boat."
Thanks for the great participation and exchanges in the boards. It's awesome to see so many hard core hot boaters out there. Hopefully you'll like some of the changes and additions we're making to the site, and the new section of the magazine.
Kevin Spaise
Editor at Large
Hot Boat Magazine
Kevin@***boat.net

Jordy
03-03-2003, 05:36 PM
Cool. Thank you Kevin and Chris for coming on here and making the point so succinctly. It's been beat into the ground quite a bit here lately, but it's nice to see that you folks are aware of the feelings and are open to working with some of the suggestions of the readers on the board. :D
Jordan

Charley
03-03-2003, 05:57 PM
HighRoller:
Hey Charley I have a pair of blower motors for sale.600's with tunnel ram blowers and carbureted fuel injectors.Nitro system,custom milled hydraulic flat tappet roller cams and forged billet pistons with shot peened aluminum rods.Bored and stroked block with line bored water passages and reverse flow intercooled dry sump cooling systems.I also had the rods and mains dyno tested and cnc etched.I'm warning you,these things make serious power.I had to run dual hydraulic props and stainless IMCO drives on my boat!!Let me know if you're interested :D that sounds good but I think I want like a 700 something now... I already had a 600.....and 700 is like 100 better than that :D
[ March 03, 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Charley ]

Jrocket
03-03-2003, 06:36 PM
***boat:
Kevin does not read the boards He's member #391...Id say he lurks now and again.. :D

MANIC MECHANIC
03-03-2003, 06:44 PM
I'm sure that my boat would not be considered a HOT BOAT by anyone here on the boards. but I gained most of my knowledge of setup and my increased love of boating from ***boat, and would probably have never undertaken the project boat that I did several years ago. I have a '72 chrysler hull that I bought for $100, I spent two years working nights and weekends when I could, replacing the stringers, floor, and transom, repairing all the cracks in the hull, and bouhgt a blown up 115HP EVINRUDE that I rebuilt myself.It's not much compared to the boats that most of you have, but with foot throttle, solid mounts and dual cable steering(which I would have learned I needed the hard way without ***boat)I can get 60MPH and have seen about 7 feet of air off of boat wakes all under total control( scares the s**t out of my friends)I too like the MEGABUCKS offshore boats but would like to see more GRASSROOTS boats! Tim

mbrown2
03-03-2003, 08:29 PM
Good job Kevin....just make sure you keep testing those 600 thingy's...boy they're fast... :)

HighRoller
03-03-2003, 09:02 PM
I applaud Kevin for coming on and addressing my comments.At least he's one step above a lot of people who might have hid behind his desk.As far as the big vs. small issue,it was only a part of my issue with the magazine.I completely understand the balance HB has to retain between making money and pleasing readers.I own a trucking company and fight the same battle everyday.I have shippers who want better service at ridiculously low rates while my fuel prices are sky high.I am also a realist when it comes to boating trends.I like a lot of the 23-27ft boats and if it weren't for the fact that I boat year round primarily on the river I might entertain buying one.I'm mainly disappointed in the fact that ***boat has gotten so focused on the boats that they have lost sight of my main point.Boating is about the people,not the boats.I know human interest or regatta stories do not pay ad dollars but I think a lot of people would want to see more of what goes on at the river.I also think that ***boat has etched out a very pronounced and exclusive niche market for itself and shouldn't be so paranoid about advertisers or manufacturers leaving on a whim because a harsh word or two.Like I said,DCB isn't gonna yank their ad and put it in TrailerBoat mag!!!***boat has a duty to the readers to report accurate,unbiased opinions and facts about the boats they test for safety and economic reasons.My case in point is that even after all this back and forth with editors and staffers and all we still haven't heard who manufactured the danger boat....or what happened to the 27 Shadow project boat,which from what I heard turned out to be a total slug and was temporarily shelved.

HighRoller
03-03-2003, 09:19 PM
By the way Charley,I think there's a kit to upgrade your 600's to 700's.It includes bored and stroked pushrods and all you have to do is find a machine shop to port out your head gaskets and set the torque on your intake bearings.

HBCHRIS
03-03-2003, 10:02 PM
I READ THE SANDBAR ONCE A WEEK. THIS WEBSITE IS AN EXTENSION OF HB AND ITS IMPORTANT THAT SOMEONE FROM THE MAGAZINE CHECKS ON WHAT THE READERS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT.
AS FOR CRAIG; HE NEVER CONTACTED ME.
AS FOR EDITORIAL CONTENT, BRETT, KEVIN AND MYSELF ALL HAVE INPUT. HOWEVER IN DEFENSE OF KEVIN, HE IS MORE INCLINED TOWARDS THE OLDER DAYS OF HOT BOAT FOCUSING ON THE 17' TO 21' HOT RODS.
KEVIN AND MYSELF HAVE BEEN TOGETHER ON THE MAGAZINE FOR 18 YEARS NOW. HE HAS FOUGHT BOTH FOR THE EDITORIAL INTEGRITY OF THE MAGAZINE AS WELL AS MOST RECENTLY, THIS WEBSITE.
I ACTUALLY CONTEMPLATED KILLING THIS SITE AFTER HEARING COMPLAINTS FROM SEVERAL OF OUR ADVERTISERS REGARDING SLANDEROUS POSTINGS. KEVIN CAME TO ALL OF YOUR RESCUE FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT CARE ABOUT THIS SITE. HE STATED THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO AIR THEIR OPINIONS, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE WRONG FROM THE MAGAZINE'S VIEWPOINT OR CLIENT'S.
AS FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATIONS, THERE HAVE BEEN 4 REPORTS PULLED AT THE REQUEST OF THE CLIENT SINCE THE PERF EVALS INCEPTION THAT I CAN RECALL.
A MANUFACTURER, ADVERTISER OR NOT, HAS THE RIGHT TO REQUEST PULLING HIS REPORT. 2 OF THE PREVIOUS ARE AT LEAST 10 YEARS OLD. THE THIRD,WHICH WAS PULLED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, WAS THE LAVEY CRAFT. IT WAS LATER RETESTED AND REVIEWED.
THE OTHER REPORT PULLED WAS THIS YEAR. IT WAS A COMMANDER. THE REPORT WAS PULLED PRIMARILY OVER A RADAR FIGURE. THE EVALUATION WAS POSITIVE IN ITS ENTIRETY.
WHAT SOME OF YOU MAY OR MAY NOT REALIZE IS THAT MANY OF THE MFR'S DONT HAVE TIME TO PROPERLY TEST THE BOAT OR GET ALL THE BUGS OUT BEFORE WE REVIEW IT IN SEPTEMBER.
TO DESTROY THE BOAT EDITORIALLY WOULD BE DEVASTATING TO THE CLIENT. TO DESIGN AND BUILD A NEW MODEL CAN COST UPWARDLY OF $85,000.00.IF THEY ARE ABLE TO RECTIFY THE FLAW, WE WANT THEM TO. WE ARE NOT OUT TO ANNIHILATE A MFR IF THEY ARE A CREDIBLE BUILDER. WE REVIEW AND REPORT WHAT IS AVAILABLE ON THE MARKET FOR YOU THE CONSUMER.
CHEVROLET AND FORD SPEND MILLIONS IN DESIGNING NEW MODELS. THEY ARE ABLE TO THINK TANK AND CORRECT MOST, IF NOT ALL, FLAWS BEFORE HITTING THE CONSUMER MARKET. BOAT MFR'S DO NOT HAVE THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES THAT DETROIT DOES.
AS FOR THE MAGAZINE, MANY OF THE COMPLAINERS WILL BE SATISFIED WITH A NEW SECTION THAT KEVIN IS DEBUTING NEXT MONTH. I HOPE ALL OF YOU WILL BE PLEASED. IT IS A NEW SECTION WHERE WE HAVE ADDED PAGES TO NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE CURRENT EDITORIAL FORMAT OR READERSHIP.
CHRIS

mbrown2
03-03-2003, 10:04 PM
HighRoller:
By the way Charley,I think there's a kit to upgrade your 600's to 700's. HR, you are kill'n me with this stuff...I am never going to forget that initial post :D
[ March 03, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

HighRoller
03-03-2003, 10:41 PM
HBChris,I understand what you are saying but...is it your fault that a manufacturer showed up with a boat that was subpar?I know it takes money to R&D a boat,but please!So a company pops a boat out of the mold and ships it straight to the evals or what?HOW could anyone sell a boat they haven't thoroughly tested?How could a company risk being surprised(unpleasantly)by lackluster numbers?I'll never forget the comments about HTM Steve and how he came 3 days in advance to lake test his boat,put a setup on it that drove nicely and made sure it ran the number he wanted.He didn't have a huge budget but his boats were always among the fastest,hardest accelerating and nicest handling boats in the evals.What I'm saying is that by allowing the manufacturer to pull their eval there is no penalty for someone who brings a complete turd to the test.Doesn't that waste HB's time and money testing a boat?I'm not saying you need to devastate a boat,but you would never go on a date without looking in the mirror first would you?

Froggystyle
03-03-2003, 10:56 PM
HighRoller:
HBChris,I understand what you are saying but...is it your fault that a manufacturer showed up with a boat that was subpar?I know it takes money to R&D a boat,but please!So a company pops a boat out of the mold and ships it straight to the evals or what?HOW could anyone sell a boat they haven't thoroughly tested?How could a company risk being surprised(unpleasantly)by lackluster numbers?I'll never forget the comments about HTM Steve and how he came 3 days in advance to lake test his boat,put a setup on it that drove nicely and made sure it ran the number he wanted.He didn't have a huge budget but his boats were always among the fastest,hardest accelerating and nicest handling boats in the evals.What I'm saying is that by allowing the manufacturer to pull their eval there is no penalty for someone who brings a complete turd to the test.Doesn't that waste HB's time and money testing a boat?I'm not saying you need to devastate a boat,but you would never go on a date without looking in the mirror first would you? I couldn't agree more. I am willing to bet cash money, and a lot of it that that evaluation boat was not a pre-production test mule either. I bet that boat was a customers boat that had already been delivered and driven. Furthermore, I bet that boat's owner chalked up the "handling" characteristics for lack of a better term to a stepped hull.
You guys tested the boat though. You wrang it out and said it needed help. Luckily, the manufacturer was able to change it and the boat works OK.
What if you thought it was a little scary? What if it porpoised like hell, but it wasn't the first boat out? How would you be honest with the report, while not requiring essentially the manufacturer to fix all of the previous models?
It is not Hot Boat's position in the industry to provide R&D for the manufacturers. They should certainly be able to use your results to back theirs up, but what is going to the end consumer if they can't even give you guys a well built, well thought out, well conceived boat?
I can only imagine.

HighRoller
03-03-2003, 11:14 PM
Exactly Wes,how many times can a company "pull"it's results?What if they bring 5 boats in a row that are horrible and want to pull them until they get it right???How does this help the companies that bring a boat ready to kick ass??If it were my magazine I'd make sure they knew that once you handed the boat over that was the point of no return!!!The least ***boat could do for us is to tell us who pulled their results and why.Does HB want to keep ad revenue from companies that produce bad boats?I know that Wes wouldn't bring a new Trident boat to the evals without knowing it would perform beyond a reasonable doubt.Why should we expect less as readers?

Infomaniac
03-04-2003, 08:00 AM
SOME of you guys need a reality check on boat size. Get away from California, Florida and Havasu. There are more places to boat than that.
Just because you see boats there steadily increasing in size does not mean that is the way boating in general is headed. That is tunnel vision. Only noticing what is happening immediately around you. And only noticing what is going on with Hot Boat.
This may come as a shock to you but what mentioned above is not the entire boating industry. Get to the central U.S where there are probably more boats than anywhere else and what do you see? Not big dollar custom boats. But the everyday 21' open bow family rides or more jet boats and v-drives than you can count.
Not sure where I am headed with this but, What is happening in your boating environment is not "The Industry"
We have 5 very nice lakes within 45 minutes of my house. You will see 1 or 2 HTM's 2 Ultra's and 1 Cougar. The bigger lakes will have Scarab - Cigarette - etc. Everything else is your normal everyday boat. Cobalt - Bayliner - Baja - and tons of jets and v-drives. Does this mean this is the way the industry is going?

cigarette1
03-04-2003, 08:00 AM
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Consumer Reports
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Boating World
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Family Circle
I need tech articles, a few boat test of hot rod boats(flats to offshore), some nice pictorials, poker run coverage and race news.
I don't need a consumer report of mass produced boats(other mags do it), pictorials of the same splashed hulls with different paint(and T&A distractions) and I'm not interested in tournement ski boats.
But that's just me wink

roostwear
03-04-2003, 08:19 AM
There are alot of misconceptions about our hobby/industry, and I'm sure it is because of what Infomaniac pointed out..... everyone sees it from where THEY are, not as a whole. Here are retail figures from NMMA about what sells, what doesn't, and if you look around at the other statistics, you can see how boat size/drive type is trending. One interesting point, look at the size and drive change that reversed around 1999.
http://www.nmma.org/facts/boatingstats/2002/files/unitsales.asp
To REALLY see the global perspective, go to MAATS in Las Vegas on 7-9-03.
Sorry for the statistic geek intrusion, just didn't know how many of you know this info is available.

HBCHRIS
03-04-2003, 08:25 AM
HOT BOAT IS A NATIONAL HIGH PERFORMANCE BOATING MAGAZINE. IT IS OUR OBLIGATION TO COVER ALL ASPECTS OF HIGH PERF BOATS AROUND COUNTRY. NOT JUST HAVASU.
AS FOR HIGH ROLLER COMMENTS REGARDING HTM; HE IS PERFECT EXAMPLE OF MY POINT.
STEVE AT HTM, STARTED OFF WITH A SALVAGED AWESOME BOTTOM FOR DESIGN AND NEVER SPENT ANY SERIOUS MONEY ON TOOLING. HE FINE-TUNED THE SAME BOTTOM OVER AND OVER AND OVER.
HE BROUGHT THE SAME BOAT TO THE TESTS 5 YEARS IN A ROW; UNLESS YOU COUNT THE VARIOUS MOTOR/DRIVE COMBINATIONS WHICH BROKE 3 OUT OF THE FIRST 4 YEARS OR THE NEW DECK.
OF COURSE HE COULD GET THE BOAT READY FOR THE TESTS. WHAT BUGS ARE THERE TO WORK OUT ON A BOAT THAT WAS THE SAME YEAR AFTER YEAR. THE ONLY ADJUSTING WAS IN SPEED AND DRIVE/PROP SET-UP.
FEB 1998 SR-24
FEB 1999 SS-24 SAME BOTTOM; NEW DECK
JAN 2000 SR-24
JAN 2001 SS-24
FEB 2002 SR-24
JAN 2003 SS-24
AS FOR TRIDENT; HE HAS NEITHER BUILT A BOAT YET OR BEEN INVITED TO THE PERF EVALS; SO EVERYTHING WOULD BE SPECULATION AT THIS POINT.

superdave013
03-04-2003, 08:30 AM
cigarette1:
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Consumer Reports
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Boating World
It's Hot Boat Magazine .... Not Family Circle
I need tech articles, a few boat test of hot rod boats(flats to offshore), some nice pictorials, poker run coverage and race news.
I don't need a consumer report of mass produced boats(other mags do it), pictorials of the same splashed hulls with different paint(and T&A distractions) and I'm not interested in tournement ski boats.
But that's just me wink Pretty much me too!

twistedpair
03-04-2003, 08:37 AM
Hey Chris, CAPS LOCK=YELLING! wink :D

HBCHRIS
03-04-2003, 08:45 AM
I WRITE IN CAPS. SORRY. TOO LATE OR LAZY TO CHANGE.
CD

Liberator TJ1984
03-04-2003, 09:02 AM
Infomaniac:
SOME of you guys need a reality check on boat size. Get away from California, Florida and Havasu. There are more places to boat than that.
Just because you see boats there steadily increasing in size does not mean that is the way boating in general is headed. That is tunnel vision. Only noticing what is happening immediately around you. And only noticing what is going on with Hot Boat.
Down here out of approx. 50-60 boaters
3 maybe 4 21'Deep Hull Liberator Pickleforks
1 26' American Offshore Cat. Blown 540
2 24 or 26' Baja V-Bottoms stock power
All the rest what I would consider Hot Boats..Jets,Flats,Hydro's,Outboards and all the rest...like what ol' average Joe would have
This may come as a shock to you but what mentioned above is not the entire boating industry. Get to the central U.S where there are probably more boats than anywhere else and what do you see? Not big dollar custom boats. But the everyday 21' open bow family rides or more jet boats and v-drives than you can count.
Not sure where I am headed with this but, What is happening in your boating environment is not "The Industry"
We have 5 very nice lakes within 45 minutes of my house. You will see 1 or 2 HTM's 2 Ultra's and 1 Cougar. The bigger lakes will have Scarab - Cigarette - etc. Everything else is your normal everyday boat. Cobalt - Bayliner - Baja - and tons of jets and v-drives. Does this mean this is the way the industry is going?

cyclone
03-04-2003, 09:03 AM
Guys,
I'd like to say that i'm happy just to have a magazine that caters to my favorite hobby, even if its only a few pages a month. There is not another book out there that will show us what we are looking for. So take it for what it is, a good magazine that caters to everyone, not just you. Be thankful that you at least have a part of Hot Boat dedicated to your lifestyle. Beyond that, we have the best website out there, a place that tons of new friends have been made and fun has been had. So chill out on bashing the guys at Hot Boat because they are doing the job. Unless you have the cash and cajones to start your own magazine, don't whine about how someone else is running there's.

Liberator TJ1984
03-04-2003, 09:12 AM
Liberator TJ1984:
Infomaniac:
SOME of you guys need a reality check on boat size. Get away from California, Florida and Havasu. There are more places to boat than that.
Just because you see boats there steadily increasing in size does not mean that is the way boating in general is headed. That is tunnel vision. Only noticing what is happening immediately around you. And only noticing what is going on with Hot Boat.
This may come as a shock to you but what mentioned above is not the entire boating industry. Get to the central U.S where there are probably more boats than anywhere else and what do you see? Not big dollar custom boats. But the everyday 21' open bow family rides or more jet boats and v-drives than you can count.
Not sure where I am headed with this but, What is happening in your boating environment is not "The Industry"
We have 5 very nice lakes within 45 minutes of my house. You will see 1 or 2 HTM's 2 Ultra's and 1 Cougar. The bigger lakes will have Scarab - Cigarette - etc. Everything else is your normal everyday boat. Cobalt - Bayliner - Baja - and tons of jets and v-drives. Does this mean this is the way the industry is going? Down here out of approx. 50-60 boaters
3 maybe 4 21'Deep Hull Liberator Pickleforks
1 26' American Offshore Cat. Blown 540
2 24 or 26' Baja V-Bottoms stock power
All the rest what I would consider Hot Boats..Jets,Flats,Hydro's,Outboards and all the rest...like what ol' average Joe would have

twistedpair
03-04-2003, 09:21 AM
I really don't mind the content. For me it's like Playboy, I know I can't afford anything in it, but I still like to look!
I think distribution is the bigger problem. I used to subscribe, but a couple 'lost in the mail' occurences prompted me to kill that. I buy it when I see it on the newsstand,(which is not often) but I'm not going to go out of my way to find it.
I do think killing these boards would be a mistake. Look at how many new boats are in the molds or being delivered just for board members. I'll guarantee that talking to other owners on these board affected their decision. Many manufacturers don't seem to realize power (good/bad) of word of mouth. A happy customer is the cheapest advertising dollars you will ever spend.

Froggystyle
03-04-2003, 09:56 AM
HBCHRIS:
AS FOR TRIDENT; HE HAS NEITHER BUILT A BOAT YET OR BEEN INVITED TO THE PERF EVALS; SO EVERYTHING WOULD BE SPECULATION AT THIS POINT. Rest assured Chris... If I decide to advertise in Hot Boat, and somehow find a way to wiggle my way into an evaluation...
The boat will work. It will be ready to be evaluated. It will start, run and drive properly. It will also re-set the benchmark for what you consider "finished". Otherwise... see you next year. Missing the evaluations is not the death knell for a performance boat builder... building a sub-standard unsafe boat should be though, and I could care less how many boats they have built before that date. When a manufacturer is more concerned with getting a boat to the evaluations than providing a client with a safe boat, there are serious problems afoot.
Good day...

Froggystyle
03-04-2003, 11:07 AM
HBCHRIS:
HB HAS ATTEMPTED TO TEST SMALLER, MORE REASONABLY PRICED BOATS FOR THE READERS THE LAST 7 YEARS. THE LAST TEST WE ATTEMPTED WAS FOR ENTRY LEVEL BOATS UNDER $30,000.00.
THERE WERE TWO MFR'S THAT SHOWED UP.
Just thinking aloud here...
If you want to test boats under 21', and the manufacturers won't bring them, seems to me like a quick post on this forum would elicit a plethora of relevant, topical test subjects. You don't have to do every one of them of course... but given any weekend at the river I think you would end up with a high volume of really nice user-built boats that would hit the magazine with style and character.
There would have to be some kind of a sign-up form, with some photos of the rig, but making arrangements to get these guys out to the river is not very tough.
Just a thought...

skeepwerkzaz
03-04-2003, 11:27 AM
OK guys lets put up or shut up.
We seem to be all intelligent,(?) so lets start our own mag. A no holds barred, river boat only mag. We seem to have some techno savy types here, so we could start out as an internet based deal. I would buy it if it was right next to ***boat, would you? I volunteer for the job of roving reporter. I have a special column planned called "How to kill your liver, and engine in one weekend" Should be a good one. Did I mention the bikini issue? It is going to come in a plain brown wrapper. Who wants to be the ED?
Skeep

skeepwerkzaz
03-04-2003, 11:30 AM
My boat costs under $30,000 and they can flog it if they want to, just keep the cameras away from my paint job.......maybe I can have them pull the article if they don't approve of it! argue

skeepwerkzaz
03-04-2003, 11:31 AM
Multiple Ralphs are cool!!!!

HotHallet
03-04-2003, 11:56 AM
I two have started a few threads on this subject and couldn't agree with High Roller more. I am 26 years old and own a 19 foot Hallet bubble deck pump boat. We have lots of fun at the river but are by no means high dollar boaters. I too have been boating since a very young age and feel that boating is about the people and the friendships. Lose some of the coverage on the flamed out dick extension cats and vee bottoms and run some more features on old school pumps and bad ass flatties.Even if I could afford a big boat I don't think I would want one. I am sticking with classics and like many my dream boat is a '21 Foot Schiada with a V-drive and BBC. The last issue of HB was not so bad with a few articles on classics including the resto article on that '75 Kinsvater but we need more. The features need to be longer not just one shot of the boat and a laundry list of modifications. Tell a "story" with the article and include more photography.

69 Elim
03-04-2003, 01:11 PM
HBCHRIS:
ON A POSITIVE NOTE, READERS OF OLD WILL BE PLEASED WITH UPCOMING ISSUES WITH A NEW SECTION THAT WE HAVE ADDED BASED PARTIALLY ON THE POSTINGS ON ***boat.NET. one word, COOL!!! :cool:

Kilrtoy
03-06-2003, 11:47 PM
I buy POWERBOAT MAGAZINE to dream.
I buy ***boat MAGAZINE to read about what 95% of the USA can afford. I guess I can cancel my HB subscribtion and just keep PB if this trend keeps up. GET BACK TO BASICS, THATS WHAT WORKS.

mbrown2
03-13-2003, 09:37 PM
Received my issue April issue today; I liked the magazine already, but the custom scene really was a nice addition. Good job HB and keep up the good work. :)

boatnam2
03-13-2003, 09:43 PM
i got a new mag in the mail the other day,it was the mag that you could get 3 free issues a while back on one of the threads.talk about high end,it makes hb look like the boating mag of the welfare.

riverracerx
03-14-2003, 10:16 AM
I agree with everything written here, right up to the point where it becomes false. :D

Backtanner
03-15-2003, 05:28 AM
RiverDave:
skeepwerkzaz:
OK guys lets put up or shut up.
We seem to be all intelligent,(?) so lets start our own mag. A no holds barred, river boat only mag. We seem to have some techno savy types here, so we could start out as an internet based deal. I would buy it if it was right next to ***boat, would you? I volunteer for the job of roving reporter. I have a special column planned called "How to kill your liver, and engine in one weekend" Should be a good one. Did I mention the bikini issue? It is going to come in a plain brown wrapper. Who wants to be the ED?
Skeep Don't you find something morally or ethically wrong about suggesting starting a magazine on a message board currently owned and operated by what would be your future competition of sorts??
RD Maybe I'm guessing here, but I don't think he is looking for investors at this point. Just talking out of his ass as I often do. My friends and I would go out drinking and talk of how great it would be to own our own bar, but nothing came of it either. I think you can hear this statement another 50 times without anything coming of it.
On another thought, I just got my new Hot Boat and was looking at the new Custom Scene. This is what I wanted when I first subscribed 5 years ago. Everything from cool jet boats to offshore rigs. Of course I'll add my my own suggestion (and everyone seems to have one )... how about a 'How To' section?

steve0123
03-15-2003, 07:56 AM
Just my two cents worth...
When I was looking to get back into boating, I read everything I could find for about a year and then called Kevin at HB for some 'real' input. Then we drove all over the country visiting manufacturers...some treated us really well, some not very well. The point is that I probably called or talked to Kevin five times and he always went out of his way, playing phone tag, etc with honest advice and help. Considering he never met me, didn't know me from Adam (sorry adam...) I thought that was pretty cool!!

Floored
03-15-2003, 04:15 PM
my boat is an 18 ft jet and when looking to buy a mag I check to see if anything, technical or otherwise, pertaines to my particular boat, if not I don't buy it. I would love a mag that had dedicated articles for jets, flatties, and daycruisers. I may be living in the past but my "little" boat is what I dreamed of and now have.There are actually alot of us diehard 21 ft and under boaters out there, but unfortunately not enough to support a monthly mag, but why not a quarterly or semi anual mag to support our end of the hobby.We are into the tech and how to articles because we love wrenching on our boat and seeing the results, good or bad, and reporting to each other about it. I don't mind the larger boats, I just don't want one myself. I have what I always wanted and everyone has there own dream. I buy HR,PHR,car craft,hot boat,and others if the information I'm looking for is there.

Skullinator
03-15-2003, 04:46 PM
Thing's Change 15-20 years ago no one had a 25 or 30 foot boat,but now people can afford the larger boats due to better interest rates and longer terms. I think the magazine is starting to change along with what they see at the lake,and my opinon (worth 2cents if that) is since the early 90's boat's have been getting bigger every year and there going to keep growing as long as people can afford it.Last weekend i was in lake havasu and i'll bet 50% or more of the boats i saw were 25' or bigger.Don't get me wrong 2 years ago i sold my 21 foot jet boat to get my 25 foot Talon and it took 2 years to make the jump,and the reason is the water gets so rough you can't take a 21 ' boat out win there is a little wind and alot of boats anymore without beating your self to death. I think the change is good and if the Charecters change then the scene must change with it. My two cents

Risky Business
03-15-2003, 04:52 PM
Skullinator:
Thing's Change 15-20 years ago no one had a 25 or 30 foot boat,but now people can afford the larger boats due to better interest rates and longer terms. I think the magazine is starting to change along with what they see at the lake,and my opinon (worth 2cents if that) is since the early 90's boat's have been getting bigger every year and there going to keep growing as long as people can afford it.Last weekend i was in lake havasu and i'll bet 50% or more of the boats i saw were 25' or bigger.Don't get me wrong 2 years ago i sold my 21 foot jet boat to get my 25 foot Talon and it took 2 years to make the jump,and the reason is the water gets so rough you can't take a 21 ' boat out win there is a little wind and alot of boats anymore without beating your self to death. I think the change is good and if the Charecters change then the scene must change with it. My two cents Talk about Change, isn't your life about to do a 180? hehe
Thanks for the Presidente. As you can tell, I am bored out of my mind.......

shockwavebd
03-15-2003, 07:42 PM
Charley:
Well then.... fair enough....First off Riodog...I apologize....just seemed like I was getting called out...If that wasn't yer intention...I'm truly sorry.... Now.... I'm not gonna pretend to know everything about boats, I don't! but I am a River Rat, I love hanging there, Iv'e been going to the lake/river since 1973( I was 7)....had my first boat in 85 (I was 19) and since then never been boatless...well except for a few months recently :mad: ...I guess my point is I love the river, I love the people...newbies or not as long as they have fun and have some respect for my wife my kids and mother earth.....Oh and I love the new bigger style boats/cats too..I'm a hot-boater, like it or not....it takes guys like you and guys like me to make ***boat magazine what it is... I will talk boats with anyone, I just love boats........Highroller I guess I can relate to your feelings if I put it into other terms..... remember mr. Neil Young singing " Hey hey, my my .....Rock and Roll will never die"
well as much as I want to hold onto that....it's gonna! Rap/hip hop is here it's what the kids like, we hate it....thats why they like it.....Rock is probably gonna die..... I hate it ....but I'm not gonna deny it, just gotta deal with it.....I hear ya about old classic jet boats they are cool, but times change..... wink maybe we need to get you a ride in a Mach 26 or a 25 daytona eek! eek! :D Atta boy charlie, Thats how alot of people got started in boating now that I am a little older and can have a bigger nicer boat does not mean its not a ( HOT BOAT ) I don't think a hot boat has to be a 19 foot jet with a big motor ....... Been there done that