PDA

View Full Version : Trojan Horse Laws and Perhaps the Future of this Forum



Trailer Park Casanova
06-18-2003, 04:59 PM
My business took me to downtown LA last week and I decided to stop into the old Philipe' Sandwich Shop.
Back in one of the meeting rooms, several extreme environmental groups were having a combined strategy meeting.
They're planning a legal/financial/political strategy to get Lake Powell drained.
Sounds crazy Huh?
Well, before you reply for me to squat, poop and fall back in it, or point me into the wind and tell me to pee,, I've seen this before, and these people are very successful.
The main point of these extreme enviromental groups is they are anti motorsport. All it takes is one rap of a judges gavel from a decision based on an environmental Trojan Horse law like the Endangered Species or Clean Water act,, and brothers and sisters, you have a closure.
The American Sand Associations website board/forum one time ran just like ***boats. OP6 type events, people making connections, answering questions about the sport of duneing. It's now a legal defense club fighting these very environmental groups. Treasurer, President, Media Relations, chili cookoffs, fundraisers, Lawyers, Washington lobby reps,,,tens of millions of dollars yearly to fight closure.
Once a venue is closed,, you can just about forget re-opening it.
If a crown jewel like Lake Powell is closed,, the rest of the Colorado river closures they fight for will fall like cards in a windstorm.
99% of the offroad rideing areas in the US have been closed. Most of the small portion left is under attack, and the enviromental groups are winning.
To fight them it takes a well funded group that can hire Biologists, entimoligists (sic), on and on. It costs millions, and takes years to dis-prove every single point (usually lies) these groups dream up and file lawsuits under these laws.
I invite you to visit: www.americansandassociation.org (http://www.americansandassociation.org)
and you can visit what was once a website like this. Operated by a magazine and several business dedicated to sand motorsports, but is now a organization dedicated to keeping whats left of a big but once huge sport alive.
Glamis Dunes was the Lake Havasu of duneing,, they've damn near closed it all. Pismo Beach once an outstanding area,, now no bigger than Disneyland and under constant legal attack by the Sierra Club and the CBD for closeure.
No one thought it would really happen,,, it has, and it's coming to a motorsport venue close to your heart.
[ June 18, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Trailer Park Casanova ]

Ziggy
06-18-2003, 05:31 PM
A flickering light of hope is that there are some normal people sitting on the benches holding their gavels...the reversal of PWC usage in Powell is one example.
Granted, the enviromentalist are pesky but you have to believe real justice prevails long term.
Some of the closures were justified due to our own faults, to some degree---treading lightly means squat to some and ruin it for the masses who do care, ride responsibly or carry their trash out.
The enviromentalists exagerations as to what we may be disturbing, endangered species(such as glamis) and the like are being more thoroughly investigated, hence the reversal at Powell.
Honestly, the whole country and in particular California is becoming so over-regulated they can't hardly keep up with their own regulations...then come in the "peoples watchdog" type attorneys and find a loophole to sue...whether there have been complaints or not. It will be the end to a lot of things and very likely not just motorsports...it could be just being able to park within walking distance to the beach or the park your kid plays ball in or anything we take for granted.
The written laws we have from years past have been disected by the lawyers and applied to todays thinking, so along came all these Class actions and peoples groups. The laws were never intended to be applied in this fashion when written but todays twisting of words finds its way into the system and worked over until they make their money from innocent biz owners, laborers or whoever has a pocket.
The recent vote to legislate the huge payments for "pain/suffering" might, just might, be the first step in reversing the terrible trend that has landed upon us..lets hope that some common sense is reinjected to those in the positions of power.

Forkin' Crazy
06-18-2003, 05:55 PM
TPC, I have to agree with you on this issue. This is a problem. In the National Refuges they all but removed all travel concerning gas powered vehicles. The "unroading" of National Forests is another. Clinton stopped hunting and trail use by claiming some of the refuges to be National Monuments.
Kinda funny, the gov built roads and bridges for people and the handicapped to acess theses National Refuges and Nation Forests, and now they are removing the same bridges and piling dirt and not maintaining trails to complete the "unroading". Giving the bill to the hard working tax payer while they sit on their asses trying to figure other ways to screw us up. burningm
One more thing. I have noticed in my state that the National Refuges have been buying up land at an alarming rate. More habitat for the black bear. I wonder what is going to happen when this animal's numbers increase and they get to be too plentiful. There is no telling how much money they spend on the bears. One got hit on a local highway and the Federal Game Wardens were there in less than 15 minutes. Come to find out they have transmitters on them that not only tell location, but heart rate, temperature, etc.
Yet they will let some of the old people go with out proper health care or medicine. Makes sense to me...LOL! :o

Seadog
06-18-2003, 08:14 PM
Don't expect too much from our court system. I just read about why the Michigan University quota system made it to the Supreme Court even tho it is totally bogus. The head of the district court went around the rules to appoint himself to the case, then failed to disclosed information until the conservatives on the court had been required to reclused theirselves by senority rules. This Carter appointee was proved to had violated numerous rules which should have taked him off the bench. However, the conservative attorney who oversaw the review let him off the hook. This so called judge then attacked the review as a right wing consiracy. Justice is not only blind, but full of ****.

Phat_Kat
06-18-2003, 08:20 PM
Trailer Park Casanova:
My business took me to downtown LA last week and I decided to stop into the old Philipe' Sandwich Shop.
Back in one of the meeting rooms, several extreme environmental groups were having a combined strategy meeting.
They're planning a legal/financial/political strategy to get Lake Powell drained.
Sounds crazy Huh?
Well, before you reply for me to squat, poop and fall back in it, or point me into the wind and tell me to pee,, I've seen this before, and these people are very successful.
The main point of these extreme enviromental groups is they are anti motorsport. All it takes is one rap of a judges gavel from a decision based on an environmental Trojan Horse law like the Endangered Species or Clean Water act,, and brothers and sisters, you have a closure.
The American Sand Associations website board/forum one time ran just like ***boats. OP6 type events, people making connections, answering questions about the sport of duneing. It's now a legal defense club fighting these very environmental groups. Treasurer, President, Media Relations, chili cookoffs, fundraisers, Lawyers, Washington lobby reps,,,tens of millions of dollars yearly to fight closure.
Once a venue is closed,, you can just about forget re-opening it.
If a crown jewel like Lake Powell is closed,, the rest of the Colorado river closures they fight for will fall like cards in a windstorm.
99% of the offroad rideing areas in the US have been closed. Most of the small portion left is under attack, and the enviromental groups are winning.
To fight them it takes a well funded group that can hire Biologists, entimoligists (sic), on and on. It costs millions, and takes years to dis-prove every single point (usually lies) these groups dream up and file lawsuits under these laws.
I invite you to visit: www.americansandassociation.org (http://www.americansandassociation.org)
and you can visit what was once a website like this. Operated by a magazine and several business dedicated to sand motorsports, but is now a organization dedicated to keeping whats left of a big but once huge sport alive.
Glamis Dunes was the Lake Havasu of duneing,, they've damn near closed it all. Pismo Beach once an outstanding area,, now no bigger than Disneyland and under constant legal attack by the Sierra Club and the CBD for closeure.
No one thought it would really happen,,, it has, and it's coming to a motorsport venue close to your heart. we should tell those arab psychos that the environmentalists want to destroy their oil "gig" and that they should blow them up. We wouldn't be lying and we'd solve our problem.
[ June 18, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Phat_Kat ]

eliminatedsprinter
06-19-2003, 08:32 AM
These people may be nuts, but they are organized, well funded, and have a ton of control in one of the nations major parties. They are working together to use the environment to push their authoritarian utopian agenda. A good friend of mine, who is of mixed race, recently joined a group for multi-racial people (to meet girls) and the next thing he knew they were bombarding his e-mail with things like "help stop the Bush tax cuts for the rich", "stop republicans from denying women the right to choose", "we must stop Bush from giving away the environment", and the rest of the DNC talking points (aka wildly exaggerated propaganda) etc... When he e-mailed the oganization and politely asked them "what these issues had to do with being of mixed race?" you should have seen the looney, angry response he got back from one of the group's leaders. He, of course, quit and is currently waiting to get his dues money back.
My point here is, that these are not just independent groups working for single causes. They are more like a network of people pushing for an overall authoritarian far left agenda.
I must admit I'm at a loss as to what we should do about it.
Some things I have done are
1. Vote (always against the party that panders to them).
2. Contact my reps on issues.
3. Speak out when I can (like now).
I've probably become a bit of a bore to some with stuff like this, but hey, this sort of mass stupidity bothers me. What else can a guy like me do? :confused:
And besides that, my boat's been in the shop for 3 weeks cry cry
[ June 19, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

Boozer
06-19-2003, 08:47 AM
If Democrats get control again we are all going to be ****ed. Cencorship will go to the extreme and the enviromentalists will shut down everything they can. What next shut down Disneyland because they waste to much electricity?
Teach your kids about politics because Hillary Clinton will be a strong contender for president. Not only will the democrats vote for her but so will the republican women just because they want a female in office. Along with all the feminists and shit. A woman in office is fine by me but not Hillary Clinton.
If that woman wins we can kiss our freedoms goodbye. We can also kiss our hard earned dollars good bye because the lazy ass homeless dirt bags will get all your money to pay for their healthcare, clothing, and well being. Might as well quit your job becasue youll get better healthcare through the gov then your employer. Why work for your money when the democrats wanna give u other peoples money for free??

Ziggy
06-19-2003, 10:00 AM
Read this morning that the Government is cutting back the funds for property aquisitions...

Blown 472
06-19-2003, 10:18 AM
Hummmm maybe turn off the tv, and get involved???

eliminatedsprinter
06-19-2003, 10:20 AM
That will somehow no doubt be labled by the dems as "destroying the environment". Imagine the left's horror at letting individuals (other than themselves) actually own property in places they (the left) don't approve of. eek!
Oh the humanity jawdrop .

eliminatedsprinter
06-19-2003, 10:29 AM
Blown 472:
Hummmm maybe turn off the tv, and get involved??? Been there done that. Still do'in it. Just getting a bit discouraged :( .
My boats broke and the main reasons I still live in this left run sh#% hole of L.A. is my family and the weather. Now it's gloomy again in the Valley yuk .
[ June 19, 2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

Boozer
06-19-2003, 10:48 AM
It's funny how money can change a person political views. Until about 2 years ago I was about as hard core democrat as you could possibly be.
Until about 2 years ago I was living at poverty level. The democrat party really seems to be helpful for the "below poverty" people with healthcare reform and all the wonderful ideas they have. Sure they tax alot but when you only make 40k a year the taxes arent all that bad.
Now that I am making decent money I realize that all that helthcare reform shit and the other BS that the democrats want to do will cost ME more money. MY money that "I" work for will be taken away so that some low life scum bag can have health insurance and a roof over his head. They will take my money to fund enviromental groups that are slowly closing down and putting a stop to the things I love to do. Why the **** do I want my money to fund things that I dont support?
To hell with the democrats. I am 100% Republican. I work for my money and I'd like to keep my money.
Since my Republican reform has taken place I have learned not to talk politics among my family members. They are democrats and vicious about their views. Democrats are some thick headed people and my family seems to think that because they are poor they deserve special treatment. I tell them that they are poor because the path they chose in life is the path that lead them to their present and their poor lifestyles. Neither myself or anyone else should ahve to be penalized and pay money because someone else made the decision to be poor. They dont like it when i say that so I keep my mouth shut.
Where's Catmando when you need him?

Blown 472
06-19-2003, 11:03 AM
democrate, republican, what ever, people in politics dont give a **** what you think or want, how long have they be throwing their stupid topics around and doing jack shit about it?? they bring them up during elections and then after they are put into office buy the lemmings hoping to get some of what they are spewing, the lobbiest come in throw some money around and the true agenda of the country is set.
This country is run by big oil, big corps and lobbiest. What we need to do is have these people sign a paper saying they are going to do what they are campaining for and if they dont they get removed.

eliminatedsprinter
06-19-2003, 12:32 PM
Boozer
I also used to be very involved in Dem party politics. One key word in your above statement is "seems" . As in "the democratic party really seems to be helpful for the below poverty level people" etc... pig_flyi
Seems is a key word because most of their claims are bogus.
Their actual agenda for minorities and the poor is to keep them, seperate, poor, and as dependent on goverment aid as possible, in order to keep them as a captive voting block.

058
06-19-2003, 12:32 PM
Boozer, Welcome to the club. I stopped taking the democrats seriously when they made statements like "the Republicans want to push grandma down the stairs" and "Republicans want to starve school children" I stopped voting for Demos because usually the first thing they do when they take office is raise taxes.[Clinton 1992] The Demos say only the rich get tax cuts but Clinton re-defined the rich as anyone making over 32K annually. They say the tax cuts don't benefit the poor, so be it as the poor don't pay taxes. How do you give a tax cut to someone that doesn't pay taxes. As for Big oil or corporations running the country thats fine with me. Rather have the money people run the country than a bunch of misfit loosers who don't know how to make or manage money. I learned along time ago that if you want to be a winner you hang out with winners, if you want to be a looser, hang out with loosers. A perfet example of Denmocrats thinking is now going on in Calif. they are on the verge of bankrupting the state and they are looking for any way possible to blame the Republicans. That ain't gonna happen because they have run this state for the last 40 years and they have found newer and better ways of squandering all the tax money and are borrowing more to waste. The sad thing is the people keep re-electing these idiots to office. I guess its true We get the govt. we deserve. yuk :mad: burningm

058
06-19-2003, 12:35 PM
eliminatedsprinter:
Boozer
I also used to be very involved in Dem party politics. One key word in your above statement is "seems" . As in "the democratic party really seems to be helpful for the below poverty level people" etc... pig_flyi
Seems is a key word because most of their claims are bogus.
Their actual agenda for minorities and the poor is to keep them, seperate, poor, and as dependent on goverment aid as possible, in order to keep them as a captive voting block. Amen to that!!! Keeps them dependent on the government. Thats how the Demos operate.

Trailer Park Casanova
06-19-2003, 02:55 PM
When I was a renter years ago I wanted rent control and voted Demo,, when I bought a house, Prop 13 saved my butt and I became a conservative.
Off road motorcycle sales have sored 300% yearly for the past 4 years according to 60 minutes news show two weeks ago.
The trades report ATV sales growing about 28% per year for the past three.
In opening courtroom arguments to close off road areas,, the enviros always state it's a dying sport.
Pismo Beach access has just about had it. Hardly anything left to ride/drive/camp on,,, and it's run on a month to month basis because of a battery of lawsuits trying to close whats left.
The main argument that the Snowy Plover bird only nests on the Pismo Dunes has finally been disproved,, and what was proven is it nests just about anywhere BUT coastal areas.
Millions of dollars to prove this lie the enviros used to close the place,, but still no chance of seeing Pismo reopen.
CORVA, the California Offoad Vech association has links, and gives financial support to groups the fight closure of rivers and lakes.
I bring this up because Castaic Lake in LA County is slated to close Jun 30 for funding issues. The enviros need only to step in and file a lawsuit and it'll never reopen.
[ June 20, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Trailer Park Casanova ]

eliminatedsprinter
06-19-2003, 03:03 PM
Castiac closing on June 30. jawdrop I must really have been caught napping sleeping . That means more slow boaters will be clogging up the good (less lousy) lakes...Damn burningm

Sleek-Jet
06-20-2003, 08:08 AM
The latest roomer from last fall was that the current water level at Powell would be the new high water mark, i.e. the lake would never be re-filled to it's historic level.
I belong to the BlueRibbon Coalition. These are the guys who are fighting to keep the public lands and lakes open to the public, not locked up. They started out advocating for 4-wheelers, but now do it for all sorts of motorized recreation. A good group of people. Here's their web site www.sharetrails.org. (http://www.sharetrails.org.)

Forkin' Crazy
06-20-2003, 11:25 AM
Check this out....Woods Hole Oceanagrafic Institution (http://www.whoi.edu/)
I was a little more familiar with this site. It had published several studies, one in partucular was shearing of zooplankton by propellers.... :rolleyes:
Ah, here we go: The Environmental Impacts of Boating (http://www.whoi.edu/coastalresearch/)
Hey, I found it!!!...... :D
These word were taken directly from the begining as a disclaimer!!!LOL!
"I want to preface my talk with the disclaimer that it is about a subject for which I have absolutely no data and very little experience."
To read more: click here (http://www.whoi.edu/coastalresearch/)
I am not saying this institution is totally a bad thing, but I think they get carried away.......LOL!

Forkin' Crazy
06-20-2003, 11:33 AM
OK, they are giving me the run-around.
try this (http://www.whoi.edu/coastalresearch/boatingimpact/L.MadinChapter.pdf)
[ June 20, 2003, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Forkin' Crazy ]

Boozer
06-20-2003, 12:10 PM
I think a lot of this is also a money game. Since all of the closures in So-Cal the only good riding anymore is becoming track riding. Funny how all the tracks are now raising their prices.
The track thing is BS anyhow. They "claim" tracks are safer because they are a controlled enviroment. I disagree. The tracks are getting so damn crowded that if you eat shit you are likely to get run over by some old ****er on a big ass YZ450F that he doesn't even know how to ride he just bought it because it sounds cool.
It's all BS.

eliminatedsprinter
06-20-2003, 12:29 PM
Forkin Crazy
I skimmed the site.
My dad is a Biology and science teacher (reciently retired from L.A.U.S.D., now working for cal tech part time).
This reminds me of when we used to go out in our boat (a 19 1/2 foot Gulfstream Caribbean) and collect plankton for his classes to study. Then we would throw down the throttle and go "swell hopping". Damn that boat handled good for a 1972 runnabout. :D
[ June 20, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

Dave C
06-20-2003, 01:23 PM
They say that raising your taxes will solve your problems. Have your taxes ever solved any of your problems?
I am a tax preparer and let me tell you that this tax cut for the rich nonsense is just a bunch of propaganda.
The "poor," which is someone who has very little income, don't pay taxes but receive gifts that amount to welfare.
Our system is designed to tax the hard working. A lot of the tax cut was targeted at the hardworking wage earners and productive members of our society, which of course takes funds away to spend on fancy welfare programs. In short, the tax cut was fair.
The truth is that if a "rich" person earns 10 times more than you, they don't pay 10 times more in taxes, they pay 30 times more than you do. Additionally, the "rich" however it is defined pay most of the taxes in this country.

eliminatedsprinter
06-20-2003, 01:42 PM
Well said Dave C. :D
I'm far from rich. In fact I'm just scraping at the bottom of what most people would consider middle class. Yet these last tax cuts have helped me plenty. I'm in the income bracket where a small amount of chump change, for a limosine liberal, is enough to make a big differance in my quality of life.

eliminatedsprinter
06-20-2003, 01:49 PM
Conversely, the tax increases our traitorous ( democrat controlled) state legislature devil is in the proccess of passing are going to hurt my family big time.
[ June 20, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

Seadog
06-20-2003, 01:50 PM
The sad facts of life is that environmental groups and their ilk will never settle for a reasonable compromise. They always set their goals at the unreasonable level. Then when a compromise is reached, they scream and yell about raping the wilderness. If they agree to a compromise, they have achieved a goal and are no longer needed. Then the funds dry up and they are out of the limelight. In OKC, the NAACP refused to sign on to a police oversight committee because of a minor incident. What they meant was solving a problem was not profitable. That is why Hamas will never give in.

eliminatedsprinter
06-20-2003, 01:55 PM
Seadog
As usual you are correct. That is why they need to be fought and fought hard.

Trailer Park Casanova
06-20-2003, 06:33 PM
Sleek-Jet:
The latest roomer from last fall was that the current water level at Powell would be the new high water mark, i.e. the lake would never be re-filled to it's historic level.
I belong to the BlueRibbon Coalition. These are the guys who are fighting to keep the public lands and lakes open to the public, not locked up. They started out advocating for 4-wheelers, but now do it for all sorts of motorized recreation. A good group of people. Here's their web site www.sharetrails.org. (http://www.sharetrails.org.) Yep that's right I had that wrong.
If you look at several anti boating enviro websites,, they call themselves a Bluewater coalition. They're not THE Bluewater coalition.

Forkin' Crazy
06-20-2003, 09:07 PM
Sleek-Jet, thanks for the link!

Sleek-Jet
06-21-2003, 04:38 AM
Trailer Park Casanova:
Sleek-Jet:
The latest roomer from last fall was that the current water level at Powell would be the new high water mark, i.e. the lake would never be re-filled to it's historic level.
I belong to the BlueRibbon Coalition. These are the guys who are fighting to keep the public lands and lakes open to the public, not locked up. They started out advocating for 4-wheelers, but now do it for all sorts of motorized recreation. A good group of people. Here's their web site www.sharetrails.org. (http://www.sharetrails.org.) Yep that's right I had that wrong.
If you look at several anti boating enviro websites,, they call themselves a Bluewater coalition. They're not THE Bluewater coalition. Forkin',
no problem.
TPC
It's kind of to bad about the name. I would suggest that anyone that boats should think about joining. Strength in numbers, and we can fight these lake draining SOB's on their own turf.
The enviro-nazis do want to drain Lake Powell, they're trying to sneak it in the back door, just like you said.
[ June 21, 2003, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: Sleek-Jet ]

Seadog
06-23-2003, 06:07 AM
I thought this was interesting. I have been following this for months. It is a prime example of the fringe element and the liberal courts run amok. It also has grave implications for all states that are at risk of water shortages, especially CA or AZ. I love that the city, state and federal government thinks that the decision is wrong and the lead enviro says that "They will thank us in the morning". Arogant ass. NM loses at 10th circuit court (http://www.abqtrib.com/archives/news03/061303_news_minnow.shtml)