Support The Pledge of Allegiance

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

Sign the petition to keep or Pledge of Allegiance
=1&sign[memberID]=538041871&sign[partner_userID]=538041871]petition to keep it (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/901616815?ts=1050125032&sign[partnerID)
[ April 11, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Mrs Big Boy Toys ]

[Floater]

Stars & stripes. wink

[Forkin' Crazy]

I would not mind, but did you take a look at the rest of that site?
The Petition Site .com (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/)

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

I just signed to protect the pledge.I read the petition first before I signed it.I did see the rest of the site. but was only interested in saving our Pledge.ONE NATION UNDER GOD.IN GOD WE TRUST.
Note: This Support The Pledge of Allegiance petition was submitted by Leslie Mitchell. ThePetitionSite.com is a free service provided to help concerned citizens rally support for issues they believe in. The opinions expressed by this petition do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of ThePetitionSite.com or Care2.com. There is no express or implied endorsement of this petition nor any newsletter offers (except those from Care2.com) by Care2.com, Inc, ThePetitionSite.com, or our sponsors. If you believe this system is being abused, please send a message with the title and URL of this petition to support@earth.care2.com. If you disagree with the opinions of this petition, speak out in the Care2 discussion boards.
[ April 12, 2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Mrs Big Boy Toys ]

[Forkin' Crazy]

Woa, now. I was not trying to start something.
I just like to look in the pot before I jump into it! :cool:

[Catmando]

Thank you Mrs. BBT, I had no idea that site existed. I signed the petition against Wal Mart because I've seen what they do to the communties they invade.
I did not sign the Pledge petition because the words "under god" are still in it. Atheist and secular children feel very uncomfortable saying those words in their schools, and if they don't they get harassed by their peers. Adults are made to feel like outsiders too if they don't say it. I always finish before everyone else because I don't say "under god".
In God We Trust is not our motto either. E Pluribus Unum is.

[Seadog]

So cat, we are to deny God to the majority for the sake of the 1% that don't believe in a deity? Wal-Mart is to be denied resonable access to markets for the sake of those too inefficient to compete? You blame Wal-Mart and religion like a good comrade,

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

Catmando:
Thank you Mrs. BBT, I had no idea that site existed. I signed the petition against Wal Mart because I've seen what they do to the communties they invade.
I did not sign the Pledge petition because the words "under god" are still in it. Atheist and secular children feel very uncomfortable saying those words in their schools, and if they don't they get harassed by their peers. Adults are made to feel like outsiders too if they don't say it. I always finish before everyone else because I don't say "under god".
In God We Trust is not our motto either. E Pluribus Unum is. You don't know how all kids feel about says" One Nation Under God" because the kids in my school district what to keep it. So don't say you know what all children want because you don't. If you don't want to say it then don't thats your right but it's not right to take it from those of us that do want it. I take pride in saying the pledge and so do my kids.

[sidewound]

OOOOOOOOH NOOOOOOOO!
I'm not gettin involved in this.
Peace Man
CESAR

[Forkin' Crazy]

I think the Pledge of Allegence should stay as it is......
But if you think Wally World is OK?..... :confused:
They come into my small town. First they claim to have this big Made in USA BS, turns out it is made overseas, probably by slave children.
After they have run all the small "Mom and Pop" stores out of business, then they raise their prices as high (or higher) than the stores that are out of business (no competition...duh).
I have witnessed this first hand.
Another thing about Walmart. Ever notice they have 30 or more checkout counters? And only 20% are operating? :mad:

[Dusty Times]

Why was it fine for all these years and now it is not?
Do these same people pay for things with Monopoly money since they fill so uncomfortable with what money has to say on it?
I would never push religion on anyone but do not want something taken away from what we already have.

[Catmando]

Mrs Big Boy Toys:
Catmando:
Thank you Mrs. BBT, I had no idea that site existed. I signed the petition against Wal Mart because I've seen what they do to the communties they invade.
I did not sign the Pledge petition because the words "under god" are still in it. Atheist and secular children feel very uncomfortable saying those words in their schools, and if they don't they get harassed by their peers. Adults are made to feel like outsiders too if they don't say it. I always finish before everyone else because I don't say "under god".
In God We Trust is not our motto either. E Pluribus Unum is. You don't know how all kids feel about says" One Nation Under God" because the kids in my school district what to keep it. So don't say you know what all children want because you don't. You need to read my reply again.

[Catmando]

Seadog:
So cat, we are to deny God to the majority for the sake of the 1% that don't believe in a deity? Wal-Mart is to be denied resonable access to markets for the sake of those too inefficient to compete? You blame Wal-Mart and religion like a good comrade, How are we going to "deny god to the majority" with over 400,000 churches in this country?? If your male skygod wanted to show us his existence all he'd have to do is show up at the White House, right? Wait, don't we already have the Trinity up there; Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld?
And your crack about "blaming religion and Wal Mart like a good comrade" is totally out of line. Typical right-wing ploy; if you don't like what somebody says, accuse them of being a Communist. :mad:
[ April 13, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Catmando ]

[Seadog]

cat, yours is the typical liberal attitude that everyone that disagrees with your 'enlightened attitude' is a right wing nut. I do not believe in organized prayers in school, other than parochial schools. The phrase 'under God' does not endorse a particular deity, but does endorse the tenants of our society. Kids are not atheist by osmosis, but by brainwashing by adults with ulterior motives, just as taking a child to church is an influence. To deny the religeous influence in our government , laws and history is the height of revisionist crap.
Wal-Mart: If not Wal-Mart then it becomes Gibsons or K-Mart or Target. How many single chair barbershops do you see now? How many of the walkup dairy bars or home delivery of milk products? Do you gas at a self serve station with a convenience store? Change is survival in a consumer economy. I gripe like crazy about the flaws of Wal-Mart and mega-supermarkets, but the stores react to the public demands. If the public is fed up with Wal-Mart then swomeone else will move in to compete. Banning Wal-Mart to protect the small business only means that you move the tax revenue to the next town over.

[gnarley]

Ya'all know or I think you should but the pledge was altered, yeah I think you knew that. Yeah that pledge that your kids are saying & you & I grew up with might be returned to it's original format & those who had to learn a new one back in the 50's did it & they liked their original better but they learned the new one and recited it because they pledge their Allegiance to the United States of America, NOT God.
So are you saying that if the Pledge of Allegiance is returned to its original format that you will somehow become unpatriotic & children will really know the difference? Has anyone told the children that the one they’re saying isn't the real one, the original as it was intended & why it was changed in the first place under McCarthyism? What if I don't want to recite in ONE NATION UNDER GOD, or IN GOD WE TRUST? Does that make me unpatriotic? Wake up people, religion has no place in our government, look what it has done to the Middle East. They are fighting over Gods & Religion. :(
Think about it :rolleyes:

[C-Ya]

When I think of how many millions of people have been killed over the last several thousand years by those that are trying to inflict their religious beliefs on others, I say keep God out of schools and off this forum! Period!
The only brainwashing of kids that I see, is by the God Squad parents.
Good Luck

[Hal]

What it means (http://home.att.net/~Poofcatt/july.html)

[rivercrazy]

Couldnt agree with C-2 or Gnarley more.

[Seadog]

It amazes me how people can say that religion has no place in government. Our government is the the direct result of our religions and is fused in every basic law we follow. Separation of church and state is defined as a tolerance of all religions and no sponsored support to one to the exclusion of another. There are caveats to this tenant, as when a religion calls for human sacrifice or mistreatment of the helpless beings. Since atheism is the denial of a deity, you cannot say that they are being persecuted. That is like saying that the pledge should not be said because some people are anarchists.
It should be understood that I am not a church going person. I believe in a God and Christ, but do not find comfort in organized religion as much as I do in the beauty of life. However, many do derive comfort from the church and as long as they do not force their beliefs on me, I am amiable.

[superdave013]

rivercrazy:
Couldnt agree with C-2 or Gnarley more. Ditto! They were smart enough to have not put it in the original version. Then someone added it in the '50s. If they didn't do that we would not be having this debate right now.
This is not the first time this has been talked about on this board.

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

Seadog:
cat, yours is the typical liberal attitude that everyone that disagrees with your 'enlightened attitude' is a right wing nut. I do not believe in organized prayers in school, other than parochial schools. The phrase 'under God' does not endorse a particular deity, but does endorse the tenants of our society. Kids are not atheist by osmosis, but by brainwashing by adults with ulterior motives, just as taking a child to church is an influence. To deny the religeous influence in our government , laws and history is the height of revisionist crap.
Wal-Mart: If not Wal-Mart then it becomes Gibsons or K-Mart or Target. How many single chair barbershops do you see now? How many of the walkup dairy bars or home delivery of milk products? Do you gas at a self serve station with a convenience store? Change is survival in a consumer economy. I gripe like crazy about the flaws of Wal-Mart and mega-supermarkets, but the stores react to the public demands. If the public is fed up with Wal-Mart then swomeone else will move in to compete. Banning Wal-Mart to protect the small business only means that you move the tax revenue to the next town over. I agree with you 100%...... :D

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

Hal:
What it means (http://home.att.net/~Poofcatt/july.html) That it....I wish more people really knew what the words stood for... :D

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

This thread was created for those of us that want to keep the pledge the way it is now.I never intended to start fighting over who's views are right and who's were wrong .We all have our own views and thats great. I Believe in keeping it. I have no problem with those how disagree with me. Thats your right. Please don't put me down for my views. :D As for Walmart I shop there and alot of other stores to. It's where ever the sales are at. Hey I have 5 kids me and my Hubby, so I have to pinch pennies so If walmart as the better deal I'm there. :D P.S. I try and buy American made product as much as possible. :)
[ April 13, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Mrs Big Boy Toys ]

[gnarley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seadog:
Kids are not atheist by osmosis, but by brainwashing by adults with ulterior motives
What makes you so sure? Maybe those who force their kids to go to church are brainwashing their children? Who is to say what brainwashing really is. I was forced to go to church & all that was required to be a good catholic well into my late teen years, I feel like I was brainwashed!

[24RODjr]

DAMN!!!
I wish I got involved in this one earlier...
Has anyone brought up the fact that the original pledge did not have any reference to God in it? The phrase "One nation, under God..." was inserted during the McCarthy years.
Just thought you'd like to know....if ya'll didn't already.
-Chris
P.S. I'm not a liberal or a leftist nut. Just someone who has faith, but believes in seperation of Church and State.
Let the Flamin' begin!!

[Seadog]

Gnarly, I mentioned that in the same place. Children do not live in a vacuum. Good parents teach the ways of their religion(s) as a child grows without beating it in. This means going to church and honest discussions. It also means that at some point allowing the child or more accurately, teenager, should be allowed to explore their feelings about religion. Aetheism is an absence of religion and most children raised with it, reject it as adults. Religion is the ultimate comfort blanket. We need more parents to promote a healthy respect for it and not oversell it as a end all.
24rodjr: it has been mention ad nauseum. It is irrelavent to why it is being challenged and the ramifications to its removal. It is like the Blue Water people, take one bit of our freedoms at a time.

[MJ19]

I support the pledge and will say it the way I was taught regardless of the law. (If a huge "Alleluia Amen" comes flying out of my mouth afterwards...that is my right to free speech) :D
However, the "God" part was not in the original pledge...it was added MUCH later...so to remove it puts the pledge back into it's original state.
IMHO religion or lack of is the responsiblity of the parent to teach their child their personal beliefs.
Also IMHO I feel the more 'stink' we make of the pledge being one way or the other the worse the battle will get and the point of the pledge is that we are UNITED AS AMERICANS...not a nation that battles within itself, but a nation that allows for differences. :)

[gnarley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seadog:
Good parents teach the ways of their religion(s) as a child grows without beating it in. This means going to church and honest discussions.
Seadog You seem to be a nice enough guy but I posted to a quote from you because of what I read as a major slant towards religion as I am doing here also. So from what I read here you said only good parents teach the ways of their religion? So that tells me from what I have read that if parents raise a child with the absence of religion they are bad in your judgment? What brainwashing have you gotten? Who says that a child can't have a good upbringing without religion? It all depends on the parents and what their morals & values are; anyone can still have morals & values with the absence of religion.
It is this thinking & narrow-mindedness that continues to perpetuate religious debate & what is acceptable or unacceptable. If we all treat each other with respect courtesy & decency & leave religion out of it & leave it in one’s own mind & heart maybe then we will all get along as a species. No one has the right to judge others because they feel they are bad parents for not educating their children about the ways of religion, I thought that in some religions only God has the right to judge, not his followers. No one else has the right to force their views or opinions on me, would you like them forced on you?
It is irrelevant to why it is being challenged and the ramifications to its removal. It is like the Blue Water people, take one bit of our freedoms at a time
Dude your twisted! No one is taking any of your freedom away. In all fairness removal of God from government would help to better level the playing field for ALL who wish to play. Please leave God in your Church, how'd you like it if government said you could only pray 3 days a week at noon & 6 PM? You'd be asking them to stay out of your church or religious beliefs. Try switching sides & think about it or what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot.
[ April 14, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: gnarley ]

[Hotcrusader76]

gnarley
It is this thinking & narrow-mindedness that continues to perpetuate religious debate & what is acceptable or unacceptable. If we all treat each other with respect courtesy & decency & leave religion out of it & leave it in one’s own mind & heart maybe then we will all get along as a species. No one has the right to judge others because they feel they are bad parents for not educating their children about the ways of religion, I thought that in some religions only God has the right to judge, not his followers. No one else has the right to force their views or opinions on me, would you like them forced on you? [/QB]I agree with Gnarley on this. I personally grew up without religion, but I was brought up with the highest of morals and family values.
Some people don't understand it when I explain to them by Pro-Science insights and the fact that I pursue the answer through the materialistic universe and not the spiritual. Does this make me a bad person or my kid at that matter? Hmmm. I didn't think so.
I don't believe religion has any bearing on values or morals any different than non-religion.
Ok...time to end this one. Back to boating...the other religion. :D
~Ty

[78Eliminator]

I went to catholic school, and part of our curriculum was the study of catholicism and it's roots. I read about the crusades. The crusades and all the bloodshed involved "in the name of christ" convinced me that religion reigns in fear, ignorance and oppression. I decided that I didn't want any part of it, ever. If there was an original intent that was good, it is gone. I still see people with stickers in their rear windows that say "Harvest Crusade". I wonder if they really know what the crusades were really about. I wonder if they intentionally wish to associate their produce swap meet with the masses of christian soldiers who stormed into towns and murdered everyone in sight in the name of god. I say, "No thanks". I will take my "burning in hell for all eternity" chances. Thanks for the threat though. wink I have to agree with Ty and Gnarley on this one, and it feels good to see people who share my beliefs.

[SchellSchock]

If you don't want to say the pledge with..."God"...fine don't, and instruct your children as you see fit!
If you do want to say the pledge with..."God:...fine do, and instruct your children as you see fit!
What I can't stand is when some whinny ass liberal jerk starts trying to change the wording for all of us because their so called sensibilities are infringed upon!
This country was founded by people who wanted religious freedom and everything this country stands for is based on that. The pledge of Allegiance is a verbal statement of that.
Short of sacraficing animals and kids because you are a Satanist it is pretty much everything goes. So quit making a mountain out of a molehile for some sense of need for pubblicity.
Why do these morons feel it is their "RIGHT" to legislate their "F"ing opinion on me.
GET A "F"ing LIFE.

[superV]

Get the popcron! :D

[Blown 472]

Seadog:
Gnarly, I mentioned that in the same place. Children do not live in a vacuum. Good parents teach the ways of their religion(s) as a child grows without beating it in. This means going to church and honest discussions. It also means that at some point allowing the child or more accurately, teenager, should be allowed to explore their feelings about religion. Aetheism is an absence of religion and most children raised with it, reject it as adults. Religion is the ultimate comfort blanket. We need more parents to promote a healthy respect for it and not oversell it as a end all.
24rodjr: it has been mention ad nauseum. It is irrelavent to why it is being challenged and the ramifications to its removal. It is like the Blue Water people, take one bit of our freedoms at a time. Now this is an interesting take, I am in the middle of a very heated debate with my ex wife about her life style, ie the guy she is dating spends the night with her while my son is there, granted they are going to get married some day.
But here is the funny part of this, they go to church everysunday with his parents but yet continue to do this even after I have told them I dont think it is right and when I pin her down on the religous aspect of it there is always some bullshit excuss.
I dont go to church in fact I loath the people who dive into it hole heartly and are not able to think for themselves, feeble minded.
So to say that exposing your child to religon is good but yet send mixxed signals is just plain ****ed up, I dont expose my son to my life style, never have never will, but this is coming from an unbeliver.

[Seadog]

Do we not send our children to school because we don't like the fools there? I did not say that you cannot be a good parent if you do not go to church with your kids, but that a good parent should teach their children of their religion(s). Yes this means trips to church and it means an ongoing discussion about religion and moral values. You can tell a child about church, but they do need to experience it at least once. I was raised Church of Christ, but I have attended Baptist, Catholic and other services when invited by friends.
I deplore those who are Sunday Christians. This is why I do not attend much church. Church should not be a social club, nor should it be ignored in how we live our lives.
I would be against adding the words to the pledge, if that was happening. The pledge was not a part of the constitution. It has evolved over the decades. Where do we stop adjusting? It should not be changed for some idiot that just wants to prove that he can legally piss people off.

[Seadog]

BTW church and religion are not necessarily inclusive. What you believe in is your religion. It may be something that includes other like believers and therefore has a name and formal rules. It just needs to be consistant and not just a convenience.

[gnarley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seadog:
It should not be changed for some idiot that just wants to prove that he can legally piss people off.
Seadog are you familiar with Senator Joseph McCarthy? HE was the person responsible for McCarthyism; it was the communist witch-hunts of the 1950's. This fear of Communism ruined many lives and families. The Senate hearings on communism were run by Senator Joseph McCarthy. He did just what you are referring to. He was able to legally piss people off that were law abiding American citizens for no other reason than that they saw politics or religion differenly, which led to that Pledges change in that if they would not recite it they must be anti-American & a communist.
The Pledge was changed by some idiot who was able to do it legally! It was a very dark time in American history.

[SchellSchock]

RD...
..With all of that I believe I understand your opinion, but you understand that our Fore Fathers did not include that into the pledge right?
Some Whinny ass religious jerk on a tyrannical rampage had them added about 50 years ago..
Makes me wonder what your opinion would've been if we were living in the time shortly before them being added. You would probably be against the "change" as you view it as someone "changing" your pledge now.
I am aware that the wording of the pledge was changed in the 50's and I absolutley agree it was "Some whinny as tyrannical jerk who instigated the whole thing.
My opinion in the 50's,(assuming I was old enough to form an intelligent one), would have been the same. Why change something that was acceptable for a hundred years just because some moron thought that it was a way to identify who was a "pinko" and who wasn't. It all comes down to a matter of personal choice and I get infuriated when someone try's to legislate their CHOICE into my LAW.

[SchellSchock]

P.S. For the record I am a Christian...but I have disagreed just as fervently with fellow christians who wanted to legislate their opinion's on others. I was personally castigated at church for refusing to agree that abortion choice should be taken out of the hands of the pregnant mothers. It is a matter of choice and I believe that educating and logical persuasion are the way to progress not legislating. Never leave it the hands of Zealots,(no matter what persuasion)!
Just my $1.02. smile_sp

[C-Ya]

I thank God for religion, because the lake (or river) would really be crowded on Sunday's without it!
I wish more would convert.
C-Ya

[SchellSchock]

P.S.S. (Really one more thing and I'll climb off the soap Box.) I think we should leave the pledge alone as it stands now....If that is where it stops. But we all know how this works first we legislate this then that sets a precedant for that on and on ad naseum.

[MJ19]

We do have another right..."Free Speech" if you want to say God you can. :)
Take a momment and think of all the things we learn outside of school, taught to us by our parents, friends, family, life experiences, etc.
I often see these little drones in pre-schools and elementary schools saying the pledge one way or another with God and without having NO IDEA what they are reciting and worse not knowing what it stands for. To most of those children they could be reciting the "Three Little Bears". :(
Out of curiousity: :)
Why is it the school's responsiblity to teach the pledge to the children?
Why isn't it the parent's responiblity to instill a sense of pride along with whatever other beliefs they believe in?
Why don't we teach children the pledge when they are old enough to know what it means?
[ April 14, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: MJ19 ]

[Catmando]

C-Ya:
I thank God for religion, because the lake (or river) would really be crowded on Sunday's without it!
I wish more would convert.
C-Ya Good point. :D

[Mrs Big Boy Toys]

MJ19:
I support the pledge and will say it the way I was taught regardless of the law. (If a huge "Alleluia Amen" comes flying out of my mouth afterwards...that is my right to free speech) :D
However, the "God" part was not in the original pledge...it was added MUCH later...so to remove it puts the pledge back into it's original state.
IMHO religion or lack of is the responsiblity of the parent to teach their child their personal beliefs.
Also IMHO I feel the more 'stink' we make of the pledge being one way or the other the worse the battle will get and the point of the pledge is that we are UNITED AS AMERICANS...not a nation that battles within itself, but a nation that allows for differences. :) I agree with you MJ19...I have friends that feel different about this then I do but we are still friends.

[Seadog]

Every time someone argues against under God they talk about McCarthy. What if it was added during WWII, prohibition, or the Civil War? One person did not add it and it was not put there to ferret out commies. As I said before, I would have opposed it being added back then. I am very much aware of what transpired back then. Have you had to take a loyalty oath to the government? I have and it was the biggest piece of BS ever. I resented this because it meant nothing.
Saying that we are a nation under God does not pledge allegiance to any deity. It says that our nation was founded on religeous principles. Be it God or Buddah or Allah, it professes a confidence that this is not the highest level of conscienceness that we can achieve. It says that we recognize a higher spiritual plane that exists.
Think about what follows the phrase. Indivisable: Does everyone agree on the war with Iraq? With liberty and justice for all. This cannot be true if OJ and Clinton walks while many are prosecuted wrongly. We aspire for greatness while mired in the bog of earth.

[Wet Dream]

There is always a worse off side to it...if the jehovas witnesses had any say in it, we wouldnt have a flag, an anthem or be able to defend ourselves. They're a bunch of pussies too, kinda like the French, but worse. Thats communism. I stand for my country, my flag, my heritage, and if some douche bag thinks he can take it away from me or my family, we've got problems.

[eliminatedsprinter]

While we debate over these 2 words in the pledge a bunch of busybody far left extremists (called the california state legislature) are trying to raise virtually all taxes, wipe out our hobby through noise restrictions and phoney emmisions laws etc, and divide us all up into a "salad bowl" of bickering ethnicities.
[ April 15, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

[MJ19]

Right now as we post ***** away, the man that got "God" out of the pledge is in the court system trying to get "God" (In God We Trust) off of our money...so get ready to see a change in our currency soon :rolleyes:
[ April 15, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: MJ19 ]

[eliminatedsprinter]

Don't worry about what the left does to money. After all, their prime goal is to seperate you from it anyway. Remember in their eyes the money you work for and earn belongs to "society" not you.

[Catmando]

MJ19:
Right now as we post ***** away, the man that got "God" out of the pledge is in the court system trying to get "God" (In God We Trust) off of our money...so get ready to see a change in our currency soon :rolleyes: I certainly HOPE so. It's time we patched up Thomas Jefferson's Wall of Separation. Better yet make it a Constitutional Amendment.
No prayers in Congress
No Clergy in Congress
No Clergy in the Military
No public funds for religious organizations
I think Benjamin Franklin said it best: "When a religion is good it will support itself. And when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it, such that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one".

[MJ19]

IMHO I think the bigger stink we make one way or the other the bigger the divide becomes between Americans and that is Sad :( We should accept eachother's differences and move on to a more UNITED AMERICA :D
If someone wants to hold hands and pray before a meal in a restuarant I accept that, just as they accept the people that don't pray in public before a meal. :)

[Blown 472]

I think public breast feeding is ok too.