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Over 18
10-07-2003, 07:12 PM
well, cnn is reporting that davis and bustamante have been defeated by arnold. i wont even go into a long rant about what we can expect... all i have to say is:
1 - we have become the laughing stock of the united states , maybe the world
2 - we have proven that elections can and will be undone if they result in the election of a democratic candidate
3 - we now have someone in office who is willing to work for zee people. some of us (conservatives) dont know whats good for us though or understand that the government requires money to operate
sucks for us.
[ October 07, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Over 18 ]

Over 18
10-07-2003, 07:17 PM
im trying to be optimistic about this though. now we have a republican scapegoat and hopefully it will be a good long time before another one is elected
[ October 07, 2003, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Over 18 ]

ROZ
10-07-2003, 07:26 PM
Wow, Glad to see you're so optimistic.....
1 and 2. Please tell me how we are the laughing stock of the world? The way I see it, the recall is proof the system can work.... Too bad the voter turn out wasn't this great a couple years ago. We wouldn't be in the mess we're in...
3. Money to operate. God damn right...State operation expenses should come before most all social programs...Not the other way around...
You're no conservative....
Originally posted by: Over 18
have been defeated by arnold. i wont even go into a long rant about what we can expect...

RiverToysJas
10-07-2003, 07:28 PM
What'eva, we vote how we want!!!
I think Carl Weathers needs to run for Governor somewhere! Eventually the whole cast of Predator will hold office.... wink :D :D
At least now I don't have to move my family to Arizona!!!
RTJas :D
[ October 07, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

ROZ
10-07-2003, 07:30 PM
Over 18:
im trying to be optimistic about this though. You sound like it... :rolleyes:
Over 18:
now we have a republican scapegoat and hopefully it will be a good long time before another one is elected Scapegoat??How do you see that Mr conspiracy man... :rolleyes:
Long time before another is elected? Another what, scapegoat, democrat or republican? You don't make any sense....

ROZ
10-07-2003, 07:34 PM
RiverToysJas:
At least now I don't have to move my family to Arizona!!!
RTJas :D That's the same thing I was thinking!!!! Although I could sell my ca. house and pay cash for a house and live like MR Big :D

H2Oaddict
10-07-2003, 07:35 PM
Over 18:
well, cnn is reporting that davis and bustamante have been defeated by arnold. i wont even go into a long rant about what we can expect... all i have to say is:
1 - we have become the laughing stock of the united states , maybe the world
2 - we have proven that elections can and will be undone if they result in the election of a democratic candidate
3 - we now have someone in office who is willing to work for zee people. some of us (conservatives) dont know whats good for us though or understand that the government requires money to operate
sucks for us. Someone should have Terminated this guys gene pool

H20Advantage
10-07-2003, 07:36 PM
I hope this sends a message to all elected officials. If you mishandle your powers in office and not listen to the people, we will vote you out.
Maybe this will make others think twice before putting their agenda before the good of the people who actually voted for them.
I wonder how many of those receiving the free hand outs actually take the time to vote??
I glad to see my vote has been counted.

RiverToysJas
10-07-2003, 07:36 PM
ROZ:
RiverToysJas:
At least now I don't have to move my family to Arizona!!!
RTJas :D That's the same thing I was thinking!!!! Although I could sell my ca. house and pay cash for a house and live like MR Big :D Yeah, but the commute would kill us!!!! wink :D
RTJas :D

Mandelon
10-07-2003, 07:36 PM
Looks like Gary Coleman is coming in at sixth place.... :D

RiverToysJas
10-07-2003, 07:41 PM
Mandelon:
Looks like Gary Coleman is coming in at sixth place.... :D He's 10th right now on CNN, Gallagher is only 5 behind him.... :D

Lakeshow
10-07-2003, 07:47 PM
How best to reply?
1. The laughing began with a Governor and Legislature that took the worlds seventh largest economy and passed a bunch of leglislation that started chasing our business' out of the state. Gray Davis is an Ignorant Self Obsessed Asshole and deserves to be run out of the state entirely not just the Governors mansion.
2. The recall is not the undoing of an election rather it is the process created by a government for the people and by people (not just democrats)in which the majority of voters in the State of California have voted to fire an idiot before he can, if he hasn't already, do irreversible damage to the state.
3. How ironic is it that members or supporters of the "Peoples Party" err Democrats are the ones that try to appeal to the minority vote i.e. latinos and african americans yet they have been the ones quick to make light of a "legal" immigrants accent.
3.a. Not to be too condescending , however, as regards the issue of the necessity to have money to operate a government:
That MONEY comes from taxes paid by BUSINESS' and peoples salaries which are paid by BUSINESS'. If the cost of doing BUSINESS is too high or higher than say Arizona those business' are going to leave, and they are, and there will be a shrinking tax base or money to operate the government - GET IT?
I can't tell you how happy and proud I am that the majority of the voters in the State of California have sent a message to the people of both parties that they are accountable to us, the electorate and we have tools, our votes, that we can and will use in order to try and point our state in the right direction.
Sorry for the venting but I am sick and tired of the same bullshit err propaganda err brain washing that I have been hearing from the guests on CNN, MSNBC, and, yes, FOX News.

77charger
10-07-2003, 07:49 PM
well i agree this sends a message to the ploiticians who cater to special interest and pay to play politics.the voters will not take it anymore.Gray davis better get in the unemployment line before it gets cut off :D
77(going to get another cold beer)charger

PipesClean
10-07-2003, 07:53 PM
!
[ October 07, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: PipesClean ]

al cole'holic
10-07-2003, 07:55 PM
Hey Over 18, you ever heard of a Ronald Reagan??

Kilrtoy
10-07-2003, 07:57 PM
So the gropinator is going to solve our problems YEAH RIGHT...........
This whole thing was a joke.....

mbrown2
10-07-2003, 07:59 PM
A Great day for California.. :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

77charger
10-07-2003, 08:01 PM
Kilrtoy:
So the gropinator is going to solve our problems YEAH RIGHT...........
This whole thing was a joke..... So was Grey Davis

CMABadseed
10-07-2003, 08:01 PM
mary carey for lieutent gov eek!

mike37
10-07-2003, 08:06 PM
Kilrtoy:
So the gropinator is going to solve our problems YEAH RIGHT...........
This whole thing was a joke..... Are you afraid for your job?

mike37
10-07-2003, 08:07 PM
mbrown2:
A Great day for California.. :) :) :) :) :) :) :) hell yes

Cas
10-07-2003, 08:14 PM
Gray wasn't done by any means. He just signed a bill that makes it mandatory for samll business' to provide health insurance for employees...say good-bye to more jobs.
He has also appointed 260 (I think that was the number) more people into office since the recall became a reality.....hopefully some of those people are going to do the right thing.....quit

Kilrtoy
10-07-2003, 08:15 PM
Are you afraid for your job?
HELL NO
Ask Minnesota how they feel after making the same mistake.
The difference
the BODY,
a NAVL SEAL,
Town councilman
MAYOR
at least he had some idea of what he was doing.

NorCal Gameshow
10-07-2003, 08:17 PM
Over 18:
2 - we have proven that elections can and will be undone if they result in the election of a democratic candidate
there are about 1 million more registered democrats than republicans in california ...

RiverToysJas
10-07-2003, 08:20 PM
Kilrtoy:
Are you afraid for your job?
HELL NO
Ask Minnesota how they feel after making the same mistake.
The difference
the BODY,
a NAVL SEAL,
Town councilman
MAYOR
at least he had some idea of what he was doing. You don't do much research do you? The Reblican party has been grooming Arnold for many years. Ever been to a Repulican Congressmen's office? Two photos in everyone I've seen, That congressmen with Ronald Reagan and that Congressmen with Arnold. If experience in polital office is what makes you a good Politician, why does Gray Davis suck so hard? With all of this under his belt, you'd think he'd have a clue too: Gray Davis served as Lieutenant Governor (1995-99), State Controller (1987-95), State Assemblyman (1983-87) and Chief of Staff to Governor Edmund G. Brown Jr. (1975-1981). That's over a quarter century of public service, and still he's an idiot!
RTJas :D
[ October 07, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

ROZ
10-07-2003, 08:27 PM
Kilrtoy:
So the gropinator is going to solve our problems YEAH RIGHT...........
This whole thing was a joke..... Only if you approached it as a joke...Didn't you say you planned to vote for Larry Flint?
Arnold solving problems, we'll see. Without Davis or Bustamecha we believe that our homes and jobs won't be taxed out of state...
The democratic process has been exercised and will hopefully be a wake call to both state and federal governing bodies in this great country of ours...

77charger
10-07-2003, 08:32 PM
ROZ:
Arnold solving problems, we'll see. Without Davis or Bustamecha we believe that our homes and jobs won't be taxed out of state...
The democratic process has been exercised and will hopefully be a wake call to both state and federal governing bodies in this great country of ours... Very true

MagicMtnDan
10-07-2003, 08:35 PM
LANDSLIDE BABY!
I'm tired of trying to reason with people who have no clue. I cannot believe anyone voted against the recall or for Bustamante. I understand why people would have voted for other candidates (many I talked to voted for them as a way to register their protest and/or lack of candidate they like).
Sure you might not like Arnold but wouldn't you like to see him succeed? If/when he succeeds we all benefit.
Sure you may be a Democrat but keep in mind it's not about which party is better or right (they're both off base much of the time) - it's about trying to put this state back on a road to financial recovery. It's going to take a lot of work and I suggest you stick around and keep your eyes and ears open - you're now going to find out just how many problems this state has and what a fiscal hole California is in. There are HUGE problems ahead for all of us. You might want to pitch in and try and make it better - we've got three years to see an improvement.
This is indeed a GREAT DAY FOR CAL-EE-FORNIA!!!

77charger
10-07-2003, 08:38 PM
forgot to add we will most likely still have lakes to boat on since Comrade davis has to pull his head out of the enviros asses and vacate,hopefully arnold will remove that siera club member from head of the fish and game department so maybe more fishing will be availible for me,and so on and so on.I have been getting sick and tired of more of my freedoms disappearing under davis.I have many hobbies that have been affected in the last 5 years and i look foward for a change.And yes iknow it wont happen overnight,in a month,but were off to a start :)

Kilrtoy
10-07-2003, 09:01 PM
I was voting for Flynt, but right as I was about to punch that card I saw MARY CAREY, so she got my vote.....
let the landslide of money now begin to leave the states pocket......I wonder what the final total is going to be.....

BiggusJimbus
10-07-2003, 09:04 PM
For this to have occured,
There has to be more than a few Democrats voting for Arnold. Look at the number for Bustamante. Nowhere near the party split. And nowhere near the typical party voting participation split.
Looks like the people mostly want their state back from the special interests. With any luck, the trend will catch on and we can get the whole country back.
Will Arnold be a good governor. Might not matter if the message was strong enough.
You can't screw the people and get away with it.
I can hope, can't I.

MagicMtnDan
10-07-2003, 09:16 PM
Kilrtoy:
I was voting for Flynt, but right as I was about to punch that card I saw MARY CAREY, so she got my vote.....
let the landslide of money now begin to leave the states pocket......I wonder what the final total is going to be..... Unbelievable. I won't even ask why you feel the way you do - I just don't care since you threw your vote away on a porn "star" - how fitting for a guy who brags about being from Chatsworth, the porn capital of the world.
And then you say let the landslide of money now begin to leave the states pocket- dude, the money's been leaving since Gray Gumby Davis took office. He's been paying back special interests for donating money to his campaigns for years!
I cannot believe you're worried suddenly worried about money leaving the state now that Arnold won the election. Where have you been for the past years?

6 Dollar Boat
10-07-2003, 09:31 PM
IT"S A GREAT DAY FOR CALI...
Over 12 and Kidtoy,
Davis has bankrupted this state, Arnold has a big job ahead of him. This is a big step in the right direction. Sorry if your state janitorial jobs will be effected... :D :D :D :D

gigamurph
10-07-2003, 09:47 PM
"1. The laughing began with a Governor and Legislature that took the worlds seventh largest economy and passed a bunch of leglislation that started chasing our business' out of the state. Gray Davis is an Ignorant Self Obsessed Asshole and deserves to be run out of the state entirely not just the Governors mansion."-Lakeshow
I have reserved my opinion on this fiasco from the beginning, but if you read the above quote taken from Lakeshow's earlier post, you will see why I believe that we are no better off today than yesterday. Gray Davis did not bring this state to where it is now alone. We have a new governor who has to contend with the same Legislature that Gray Davis did. New ringmaster, same "dog and pony show". I just hope that we can weather this whole thing and come out of it alive......and the only viable thing I heard from Arnold was his stance on improving education which will take alot more money than this state claims to have. New governor; new programs; new agenda; STILL NO MONEY! It wouldn't be the first nor the last time I was mistaken, but for California's and Californians' sake, I hope my fears aren't realized. New governor; same problems; same uncompromising inability to do anything about it! frown

BajaMike
10-07-2003, 09:57 PM
Hey, "Over 18", where did you go, you moron (and I hear you're not "over 18"), obviously not mentally over 10!
And "Lakeshow"...what you said...right on!!!!
:D
Mike

CA Stu
10-07-2003, 10:01 PM
Kilrtoy:
So the gropinator is going to solve our problems YEAH RIGHT...........
This whole thing was a joke..... Tut tut tut.
To protect and SERVE, baby!
Serve: (from Dictionary.com)
8 entries found for serve.
serve ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sûrv)
v. served, serv·ing, serves
v. tr.
To work for.
To be a servant to.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Do what your public tells you to, man.
You work for us, just like Governor Davis used to.
All I can say is too bad we didn't recall all the other borderline socialist politicians (Boxer and Feinstein) too.
I am more proud today to be an American than I was yesterday.
From the Gettysburg Address:
"and that
government of the people, by the people, for the people shall
not perish from the earth."
Right on, and hooray!
CA Stu

Kilrtoy
10-07-2003, 10:11 PM
Hate to burst your bubble, Im not worried.
Also its Building and Ground Worker, not janitor.
I have never bragged about being from the porn capitol, I simply answered a question. But I will now, I live seconds from almost every studio, I see them all in the coffee shop, market, pet store kids school and hang out with a few of them and I thinks its cool. Dont be a hater. Ok here it is, I could care less about this election. I wish ARNOLD all the luck with his tuff new job, Im sure MARIA will due fine....

Dr. Eagle
10-07-2003, 10:16 PM
Over 18:
im trying to be optimistic about this though. now we have a republican scapegoat and hopefully it will be a good long time before another one is elected Why don't you just make the 10 mile trip over the border and STAY THERE!!!!!
You seem to have the common sense of a lemming, keep it up...

CA Stu
10-07-2003, 10:26 PM
Kilrtoy:
Hate to burst your bubble, Im not worried.
Also its Building and Ground Worker, not janitor.
For some reason I thought you were a motorcycle cop?
Sorry.
CA Stu

Faster Daddy
10-07-2003, 10:27 PM
Hey "Over 18" - I'd say that Grey and Cruz would give you an "A" for memorizing the party lies and propaganda. Fortunately for us, theres only a few of you left out there still buying the bullshit!

Dr. Eagle
10-07-2003, 10:40 PM
Faster Daddy:
Hey "Over 18" - I'd say that Grey and Cruz would give you an "A" for memorizing the party lies and propaganda. Fortunately for us, theres only a few of you left out there still buying the bullshit! I think there are a very small core of rabbid lefties still believing their own bullshit. I like to call that the BOOBS...(Believing Our Own Bull Shit) syndrome...seems like a lot of people have finally seen the light! There are a hell of a lot more newly registered Republicans than Democrats, I think the ratio was along the line of 75% Republican 25% Democrat. If this woke up the people with common sense who have always sat the elections out and motivated them to vote, I just hope it keeps up!

locogringo
10-07-2003, 10:49 PM
I am so glad we will be putting this topic to rest! I won't have to listen (for a while at least) to all the "type before you think" posts as of late.
GO ARNOLD!

NorCal Gameshow
10-07-2003, 10:50 PM
so far, over 117,000 have voted for camejo
that's the biggest suprise today :confused:

Ziggy
10-08-2003, 10:26 AM
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/343Ahhhnold-med.jpg

OGShocker
10-08-2003, 10:34 AM
Ziggy:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/343Ahhhnold-med.jpg LMAO... at over18!
I LOVE GREEN!!! (http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/recall/mapN4.htm)
The people of California have spoken, now listen to Arnold!

Dr. Eagle
10-08-2003, 10:38 AM
OGShocker:
Ziggy:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/343Ahhhnold-med.jpg LMAO... at over18!
I LOVE GREEN!!! (http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/recall/mapN4.htm)
The people of California have spoken, now listen to Arnold! Roger that LMAO at over 18. He can't see that the current legislature and governor flew the plane into the ground and now it will be someone elses mess to try to clean up. So when does the blame game start on Arnold...today, tomorrow????
OGShocker it is more like I love commies...lol...just kidding!!!!!!!!! argue :D :D :D :D

mirvin
10-08-2003, 10:40 AM
You get no support here......

summerlove
10-08-2003, 10:42 AM
Ok, I had to chime in...
You all know where I stand on this - I voted against the recall, my wife did also. She voted for Arnold, and I voted for Cruz - to even our votes out. I can't stand Cruz, but I didn't believe Arnold was the right choice. I just wish we had a candidate that we could rally behind (those of us non-Arnold supporters, that is). I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I do, however, hope Arnold makes the tough decisions. Also, he says he wants to represent all of California. I believe him. I wish him the best of luck and hope that he's the most successful Governor in California history.
Personally, the election didn't turn out as I would have liked, but that's what the democratic process is all about. I'm not gonna whine about it and cry bum deal. The voters have spoken and that's the final say in the matter.
Good luck Arnold!

Dr. Eagle
10-08-2003, 10:51 AM
summerlove:
Ok, I had to chime in...
You all know where I stand on this - I voted against the recall, my wife did also. She voted for Arnold, and I voted for Cruz - to even our votes out. I can't stand Cruz, but I didn't believe Arnold was the right choice. I just wish we had a candidate that we could rally behind (those of us non-Arnold supporters, that is). I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I do, however, hope Arnold makes the tough decisions. Also, he says he wants to represent all of California. I believe him. I wish him the best of luck and hope that he's the most successful Governor in California history.
Personally, the election didn't turn out as I would have liked, but that's what the democratic process is all about. I'm not gonna whine about it and cry bum deal. The voters have spoken and that's the final say in the matter.
Good luck Arnold! Thanks for the input and thank you for voting. I agree the candidate pool here in this state is pretty thin.
Also, Differences in opinion are what make the world go around.
As far as the recall, nearly every governor in the last 40 years has faced a recall effort. This was more of a grassroots revolt against the mismanagement. Really the right time to do that was last year, it was obvious that Davis was incompetent. But there were too many people that did not involve themselves enough to either vote or figure out that there was a problem with Gray.
Honestly it is a sad day for California. It is sad it got this far down the drain pipe, and it's sad it came to this drastic step. It cannot be taken lightly. It is not a time to celebrate, but to fix the mess.
I say the same thing, Good Luck Arnold! He has his work cut out for him. I think he will have a difficult time getting things on the right track, in fact I have little confidence that it will ever get beyond partisan bickering.

OGShocker
10-08-2003, 10:54 AM
Dr. Eagle
Roger that LMAO at over 18. He can't see that the current legislature and governor flew the plane into the ground and now it will be someone elses mess to try to clean up. So when does the blame game start on Arnold...today, tomorrow????
OGShocker it is more like I love commies...lol...just kidding!!!!!!!!! argue :D :D :D :D To understand my "I LOVE GREEN" comment you need to look at this link.web page (http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/recall/mapN4.htm)
The "Green" party are a group of WACKOS!

Dr. Eagle
10-08-2003, 11:23 AM
OGShocker:
Dr. Eagle
Roger that LMAO at over 18. He can't see that the current legislature and governor flew the plane into the ground and now it will be someone elses mess to try to clean up. So when does the blame game start on Arnold...today, tomorrow????
OGShocker it is more like I love commies...lol...just kidding!!!!!!!!! argue :D :D :D :D To understand my "I LOVE GREEN" comment you need to look at this link.web page (http://vote2003.ss.ca.gov/Returns/recall/mapN
4.htm)
The "Green" party are a group of WACKOS! I looked at the link, but not until after the post as I thought you were referring to the green party getting 2% of the vote. I wasn't directing any disrespect your way at all. Sorry if I seemed to be dissing you!
Yes in this case Green was a good thing! Notice the red seems centered on San Francisco? Parhaps appropriate!
As far as the green party, when I was making the incorrect assumption (you know what assume spells) you were referring to the green party was that I am in complete agreement with you. When you talk about the greens, they make no bones about being socialist...I just think the Greens are really more like full on communists. Just my opinion. That was the reason for the "commie" comment. And I am still LMAO at over 18.
I guess this could be classified a distracted posting! Got the granddaughter on the knee bouncing here....sorry.
[ October 08, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

paradigm shift
10-08-2003, 11:46 AM
gigamurph:
"1. The laughing began with a Governor and Legislature that took the worlds seventh largest economy and passed a bunch of leglislation that started chasing our business' out of the state. Gray Davis is an Ignorant Self Obsessed Asshole and deserves to be run out of the state entirely not just the Governors mansion."-Lakeshow
I have reserved my opinion on this fiasco from the beginning, but if you read the above quote taken from Lakeshow's earlier post, you will see why I believe that we are no better off today than yesterday. Gray Davis did not bring this state to where it is now alone. We have a new governor who has to contend with the same Legislature that Gray Davis did. New ringmaster, same "dog and pony show". I just hope that we can weather this whole thing and come out of it alive......and the only viable thing I heard from Arnold was his stance on improving education which will take alot more money than this state claims to have. New governor; new programs; new agenda; STILL NO MONEY! It wouldn't be the first nor the last time I was mistaken, but for California's and Californians' sake, I hope my fears aren't realized. New governor; same problems; same uncompromising inability to do anything about it! :( A good point and hopefully all the legislature got the message. CHANGE or be CHANGED. wink Hopefully all will vote from now on.

ROZ
10-08-2003, 11:48 AM
summerlove:
I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I don't understand why the worry. I think this is a clear message that citizens accross this great land are sick and tired of publicly elected officials looking out for their best interest, and not the best interest of the people...
Voter turnout was huge and so was the margin...
Atleast we don't have to say "Go Daryl!" :D
Over18 was just Trolling......
[ October 08, 2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 12:09 PM
Well Summerlove,
Looks like for two people that are inclined to different politics, we tend to agree alot. This entire recall came about because of the really poor candidates that have been offered to the citizens of this state for a long time. Davis was weak last year when the election came about. So who did the repubs put up against him? Bill Simon. Yeah, nobody could tell he was a spineless idiot, and maybe not just a little crooked right out of the box.
Arnold may not be a genius, but if he cares more about the state than he does about keeping his job or climbing the political ladder, he should put some people close to him that have the skills to improve the situation. I'm all for that. He's a republican in name only, and you know, that's OK with me. He's a fiscal conservative. To me, that's almost perfect. Balance the HONEST needs of the people with the ability to pay for it. Protect workers, jobs and businesses. At the same time protect privacy and personal freedom> Everybody really can win. Oh, and put people in charge of CA education that really are interested in improving it.
Now, to beat the legislature into shape. Sure sounds like a bunch of petulant losers want to **** this up just because they can't stand to see any republican sucess. That's pretty pathetic.

FingerTight
10-08-2003, 12:20 PM
An interesting fact or two.
According to CNN's results:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2003/recall/
Arnold beat the "NO" on recall vote.
Basically, he would have beat Davis in a head to head election.
As well, over a million people who voted "NO" on the recall did not vote for Bustamante.
Lazy democrats...
:D

gigamurph
10-08-2003, 12:32 PM
ROZ:
summerlove:
I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I don't understand why the worry. I think this is a clear message that citizens accross this great land are sick and tired of publicly elected officials looking out for their best interest, and not the best interest of the people...
Voter turnout was huge and so was the margin...
Atleast we don't have to say "Go Daryl!" :D
Over18 was just Trolling...... Roz; not to get anything started but I think what is bein' said is that it is an ugly precedent that we started waaaaay baaaaack when with the courts tyin' up, what was it; Prop. 184? Prop. 157? I don't remember to be honest with you. But since that happened, your vote has meant just that much less. Have an election; and if it doesn't come out the way someone hopes, take it to court and get it tied up or repealed. Elected official not 100%? Recall them. The courts and their puppet and their abusers (attorneys) are the ones enacting YOUR wishes, not your votes! Ugly precedent! Where and when will it all end? A number of your votes have been wasted for years due to that fact.....and before anyone asks, I have almost always exercised my right to vote, wasted or not.

ROZ
10-08-2003, 12:56 PM
gigamurph:
ROZ:
summerlove:
I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I don't understand why the worry. I think this is a clear message that citizens accross this great land are sick and tired of publicly elected officials looking out for their best interest, and not the best interest of the people...
Voter turnout was huge and so was the margin...
Atleast we don't have to say "Go Daryl!" :D
Over18 was just Trolling...... Roz; not to get anything started but I think what is bein' said is that it is an ugly precedent that we started waaaaay baaaaack when with the courts tyin' up, what was it; Prop. 184? Prop. 157? I don't remember to be honest with you. But since that happened, your vote has meant just that much less. Have an election; and if it doesn't come out the way someone hopes, take it to court and get it tied up or repealed. Elected official not 100%? Recall them. The courts and their puppet and their abusers (attorneys) are the ones enacting YOUR wishes, not your votes! Ugly precedent! Where and when will it all end? A number of your votes have been wasted for years due to that fact.....and before anyone asks, I have almost always exercised my right to vote, wasted or not. I agree with what you said. This is exactly why extreme measures need to be taken at times. It is the number of people who actually came out to vote is what should make the publicly appointed take second thought of their actions....We will be watchin.... I too have always voted....

summerlove
10-08-2003, 12:59 PM
ROZ:
summerlove:
I am a little worried about the message (recall) this sends across the political landscape.
I don't understand why the worry. I think this is a clear message that citizens accross this great land are sick and tired of publicly elected officials looking out for their best interest, and not the best interest of the people...
Voter turnout was huge and so was the margin...
Atleast we don't have to say "Go Daryl!" :D
Over18 was just Trolling...... Yea, he was trolling - I would never had posted that byline! I'd have my ass in a platter by now! :D
What I meant is similar to what Gig says, IMHO (for what it's worth), the recall effort sets bad precedent. Yea, it was originally intended for the recall of incompetent, illegal and immoral politicians (some could argue Gray fit the first wink ), but really, what it does do is take the risk of doing what a politician thinks is right away from him. In the future, politicians will be always watching their back for fear of recall, and that is not a good thing. Some of the hardest decisions made by a legislative body are not always the most popular. I just think the ballot box is the right place to either allow a person to continue or to remove them from office, at predescribed times. Mid term removals will not make things better, only create more dysfunction due to the hostile nature of the "take over". Mark my words, there will be a number of recall efforts now that this one has been successful around the country for the reasons I have described above.
I also disagree with term limits for the same reason - if you have a politician that is doing a great job for his/her constituency, why remove them? Same goes for the lousy politician, if they are doing a bad job, voters can decide to remove them or not. The term limits issue has created this mess of having to continually move around in public office, thus creating the mess we're in today. With limits, there's no accountability. When the politician makes a decision, the only thing they are looking at is their future - when the bad decision creates problems down the road, they'll be long gone and onto some other office, screwing that up as well.... :confused:

BoatFloating
10-08-2003, 01:34 PM
This isn't the first recall effort of a Govenor of Calif. Ronald Reagan, Jerry Brown and Pete Wilson to name a few. The difference is those never collected enough signatures to put it on the ballot. The differnce on this one was more than enough people wanted the recall and even more proved that by the results on the recall question. So to say this is bad, is wrong, it's more than right. I tell you if the other yahoo's in the Senate and House up there don't get their act together they will be voted out in their elections in 2004. They are just as much to blame as Davis. But once they knew they could pass anything and Davis wouldn't veto it they pushed all the shit thru.....
Here is a great fact for you. Davis received 3 million dollars for his last election from the Prision Guard Union. So guess what? when they got their new contract from Davis recently they received a 6-10% pay increase and got 90% salary at 50 years old retirement. There is not a union across the nation that gives 90% salary at 50 years old retirement. We call this Davis Payoff
Arnold is the MAN!

summerlove
10-08-2003, 01:58 PM
BoatFloating:
There is not a union across the nation that gives 90% salary at 50 years old retirement. We call this Davis Payoff
That statement is absolutley 100% not true! Until you know what you are talking about you should not comment on issues you know knowthing about.
Ask ANY cop, sheriff, CHP or fireman if they have 3% at 50 and 90% of them DO! It is a collective bargained benefit reserved for safety employees throughout the state.
It works like this: take the number of years in service and multiply by 3, and you get the % of retirement benefit. So, if a guy works for 25 years and retires at 50, he'll get 75% of his final pay for his retirement program. It's not a guaranteed 90%, you'd have to put in 30 years to receive that high a payout. Prior to the 3% @50, they had 2% @ 50. Remember, in govt, they don't have 401K, stock options, bonus plans, etc, etc, etc.
These guys, including prison guards, put their lives on the line every day for very little money so that they may have a nice retirement. It is a known statistic that safety employees die much earlier in life than their non-safety counterparts. I think they and thier families deserve it. Just ask those families who have lost a loved one in the line of duty if it isn't worth it.

miller19j
10-08-2003, 01:58 PM
summerlove:
I voted against the recall, my wife did also. She voted for Arnold, and I voted for Cruz - to even our votes out. Am I missing something here? If you and your wife voted against the recall why did you vote for another candidate? :confused:

FRENCHIE
10-08-2003, 03:20 PM
the best thing i heard all day..statistic...there were more people in the millions that voted to get Davis out and yes on the recall, cuz they were sick of him and his shit...than there was that voted him in originally!!!!! Aint that funny, the people have spoken!!! :mad:

eliminatedsprinter
10-08-2003, 03:30 PM
77charger:
forgot to add we will most likely still have lakes to boat on since Comrade davis has to pull his head out of the enviros asses and vacate,hopefully arnold will remove that siera club member from head of the fish and game department so maybe more fishing will be availible for me,and so on and so on.I have been getting sick and tired of more of my freedoms disappearing under davis.I have many hobbies that have been affected in the last 5 years and i look foward for a change.And yes iknow it wont happen overnight,in a month,but were off to a start :) I too have many hobbies and it is a fact that all of them are under attack from the same party (Democratic) and the political left. Jeeze, I remember when in the early 90s the left wing dems in Santa Monica almost banned rollerblading in their city.
Please Arnold!!!!! Or somebody!!! Protect me from those who want to protect me from myself!!!!

ROZ
10-08-2003, 04:10 PM
summerlove:
Remember, in govt, they don't have 401K, stock options, bonus plans, etc, etc, etc.
Neither does every private/public business....Just like everyone else, they can invest elsewhere and/or in addition to other pre-tax investment plans.......I have to...
I'm not saying that they don't deserve a pention, just posting regarding this part of your post...

BoatFloating
10-08-2003, 04:39 PM
summerlove:
BoatFloating:
There is not a union across the nation that gives 90% salary at 50 years old retirement. We call this Davis Payoff
That statement is absolutley 100% not true! Until you know what you are talking about you should not comment on issues you know knowthing about.Coming from your left wing pie hole is a funny statement. Somed your statment have about as much truth as Davis smear attacks.
This came from a good friend who has info to these facts. The difference in the cops contracts and the prision guards is the the amount of time served to get the pension. The prision guards is alot less time served. I know the cop pensions very well thank you.
I guess I need to spell it out for you! I used it as a example on how Davis could be bought off. It has nothing I repeat NOTHING to do with if they deserve it. So do yourself a favor and learn the facts. You sound like Davis.......

My Man's Sportin' Wood
10-08-2003, 04:49 PM
http://home.mchsi.com/~angieknoll/22_24_100803_arnold_confetti.jpeg
Cross our fingers!
At least his win gave us a couple more years before we have to sell our house.
When jobs leave, property values go down, we lose our butts. Jobs are the only reason the California real estate market is so hot. . .well, that and the weather. :)
[ October 08, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Mrs. Sportin' Wood ]

uclahater
10-08-2003, 04:58 PM
Over 18:
well, cnn is reporting that davis and bustamante have been defeated by arnold. i wont even go into a long rant about what we can expect... all i have to say is:
1 - we have become the laughing stock of the united states , maybe the world
2 - we have proven that elections can and will be undone if they result in the election of a democratic candidate
3 - we now have someone in office who is willing to work for zee people. some of us (conservatives) dont know whats good for us though or understand that the government requires money to operate
sucks for us. Another example of why stupid people shouldnt breed idea idea
[ October 08, 2003, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: uclahater ]

BUSTI
10-08-2003, 05:28 PM
Why should a politician have more job security than we do? My job security and the job security of all my employees is based on our competency and performance!! Not our popularity! finally our politicos will live with the fact they contract with the public is at will! Meaning that they can be fired at the discretion of their employers at will at any time the electorate thinks they are doing a bad job.
TO DAM BAD IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT!!! What? We going to start a fuc&ing union for politicians and offer them job protection? These fears of this destabilizing the state government is bullshit! Does it destabilize private enterprize when you are working under the watchful eye of an employer that sets high expectations and monitors your behavior and performance for fear that you might get fired if you don't cut the mustard? Hell no!! It does not!!!
Look Californians got mad!! And rightfully so. They said ' this bull he supposedly put on a hiring freeze in the state then hired 45,000 state workers in 5 years!!???!!!" "What the fuch?" He panicked during the energy and prevented the energy companies from buying low cost long term contracts because like an idiot he suspected a consperacy that they would screw the price up. So what happened he forced to them buy short and high!!! Every respected economist in this country including Milton Friedman has said this strategy was stupid!!!
He shamefully signed a bill for illegal DLs after refusing to sign it for two years. It was an ovious attempt to garner illegal votes. Nope the CA voter said Fuch it YOU ARE FIRED YOU INCOMPETENT LIENING ASSHOLE!!!
He is so bad for California business! How many of you have to meet a payroll? Well I do!! For over 100 people every month! Under this asshole my workmans comp insurance premiums have almost tripled!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where do you think that fuching money comes from? my brothers company owns 25 vehilces!!! Under this boob his car registration annually is raised by more than $150,000 fuching dollars..what is the impact to our business's because of this ass hole? We can't expand our companies!!! we can't give raises to our employees as we would like because we are to busy trying to keep up with the TAXING AND TAXING THIS ASSHOLE HAS STRAPPED ON OUR BACKS.
Look I sell mortgage backed securities for a living. Wall Street hates this guy! Why because he is single handedly responsible for the once most valued state issued bonds, CA Bonds, now being worthless on Wall Street!!! This is how a state raises money for thos of you that didn't take Econ 101!!!! Bonds are promisary notes to the purchasers that the state will pay them "x" % of interest at maturity. The credit rating on the bond (which is the states likelyhood to pay you back when buy one) is dependent on the states financial solvency. This asshole has drove the state to the brink of bankruptcy!!! Now Wall Street advises it's clients not to buy our bonds not unless CA OFFERS REDICULOUSLY HIGH INTEREST RATE MATGINS!!! MEANING THE STATE HAS TO PAY MORE FOR THE SAME MONEY THAT THEY USED TO GET SO CHEAP BECAUSE OUR CREDIT RATING IS SO ****ED UP!!!!!
The current situation financially is grave that we might be in bankruptcy court and then a judge will decide what bills get paid and in what amounts. This would devaste the state for decades and the judge would immeadiately cancel all state contracts including labor contracts and they would be rendered null and void. tens of thousans of stste vendors that are relying on the state paying their bills would go bk anfd the state would be plunged into a regional depresiion which could create a world wide depression. Do you know how many foriegn countries are holding CA bond that fear CA is going to default and not be able to payoff their debt on already existing bonds?
So when you say "it was a sad day for California"... with all respect SHUT THE **** UP YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE **** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE COULDN'T AFFORD TO KEEP HIMAND I WISH HE WOULD HAVE DIED AND SAVED US PRDUCERS THE EXPENSE OF THE RECALL BUT THEN WE WOULD HAVE BEEN STUCK WITH BUSTAMANTE!!!!!
DARRELL IYSSA IS OUR HERO
Sorry for typos but i am looking at my monitor with one eye the other has a patch on it as I jsut had surgery on it.

BUSTI
10-08-2003, 05:30 PM
My bother owns 250 vehicles sorry.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 05:52 PM
What country is this in and what exactly do the prison guards get, I highly doubt it is better than the cops.....
Also so you know so much about the prison guards please tell us how they got these raises and how they got this awesome pension you speak of....
the CHP has the best in the state.

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 05:57 PM
Will this do?
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Prison_System/CalifPrisonGuards.html

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 06:05 PM
Or maybe this...
http://www.ysedc.org/Leo_Chesney/big_pay_back.html
Maybe you ought to use a little google search before deciding what you are going to say.

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 06:10 PM
Maybe the CHP do get the best benefits. But they happen to be highly trained, and certainly more highly educated. They also have a much more dangerous job and higher standards to abide by.
So, they are irrevelant to the discussion about the Prison guard unions and thier ways with Davis. Which I believe was the inital reason for dragging them into this discussion.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 06:10 PM
But in reality it is the most powerful and influential lobbying group in the state
Very true.
They still dont make more than cops, they deal with the worst our human race has borne and yes they have a good retirement but far from the best......
Novey is a super player and lobbist are who work for him. The right lobbist can push anything thru. Article is old but acurate.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 06:15 PM
Its already been proven private prisons are great, if you want the fox guarding the hen house.
The article fails to mention that the state still funds the building of private prisions through other means, but that is a whole different discussion...

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 06:18 PM
Newer but accurate.
http://www.jillstewart.net/issue0123.html
Basically a ****ed up system.
I'll be interested to see if Arnold has any ability to back these guys down. Or if the legislature develops any balls of their own.
Time will tell.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 06:24 PM
Hell NO
That guy is the legal counterpart of HOFFA. He is like god and people(Politicans) come to him when they need things done....
He has the best lobbist and has pull all over the country......he goes places politicans wish they could go....

My Man's Sportin' Wood
10-08-2003, 08:18 PM
Kilrtoy:
But in reality it is the most powerful and influential lobbying group in the state
Sorry Kilrtoy, have to disagree with you on this one. I have read on many different occasions that Indian Tribes are the most powerful and influential lobbying group. At least they are the biggest donors. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics, but I think biggest donors = most powerful.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 08:58 PM
That came out in this election, they are huge donors, but they dont control the board yet, They are close, very close. The prison guards still have clout the indians can never attain, or that trump card....

Haullen270
10-08-2003, 09:06 PM
Yesterday was a great day!!! The recall will show all that if you can't get the job done, then you can be replaced.
Arnold is a Man's Man. He is the Man!!!

BoatFloating
10-08-2003, 09:35 PM
Kilrtoy:
What country is this in and what exactly do the prison guards get, I highly doubt it is better than the cops.....
Also so you know so much about the prison guards please tell us how they got these raises and how they got this awesome pension you speak of....
the CHP has the best in the state. Kilrtoy, How come you didn't take me up on the bet Davis would be recalled. You Said "I doubt he's going any where" on the thread of 1 more day to Davis is gone. You are correct, he isn't going any place until the election is certified 5 weeks. But then he's gone and so is the pay to play policy.
Kilrtoy, you and summerlove need to do your homework before you call me out on the facts. I must thank Bigjimbus for posting the few links on Davis corupt ways. Thanks again Big Jim Here is a quote from one of the articles.
Last year amidst the budget crisis, Davis and the Legislature ignored the furious Richard Polanco and gave the guards an outrageous, utterly unearned 34 percent, five-year raise with extra vacation, shorter hours and retirement at 50 with nearly full pay.(Some weeks later, the guards handed Davis the biggest check he has ever gotten from a campaign contributor, for $251,000.)[/QUOTE]
I did make one mistake and that was I said they got a 6-10% raise. It says 34% but that's over 5 years so 6-10% is a year raise depending on time served.
I do have a question for you Kilrtoy, Is your boat registered in CA or AZ? Just curious?????
It is some people that had their head in the sand to what Davis did for years. I'm glad to see a few pull their heads out and vote to oust Davis. It seems that there is still a few on the boards that need to read things before they vote blind.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 09:42 PM
You are right, he got smoked.
But he gave the guards a 34% pay raise. Wholly shit they were making 7.29 an hour. Shit in and out pays 8.25. These are the people that watch these shit holes. They deserved a raise. even with what they make now I WOULD NEVER WANT THERE JOB. That is some crazy shit.
Does anybody think they dont deserve that raise.

Kilrtoy
10-08-2003, 09:43 PM
My boat is here and I pay for it. But im not complaining.....

BoatFloating
10-08-2003, 09:48 PM
Kilrtoy, see we agree on something. I never said they didn't deserve it. My complaint is the way the union got it and the timing. Why not ask for it when the state was rolling in dough a couple years back. Davis didn't give it to him then, but when he needed the campaign money, poof! there it is and the State was in trouble..

BiggusJimbus
10-08-2003, 09:52 PM
They were making 7.29 an hour in 1980. In-N-out was paying about 2 buck, 2 fitty back then.
Looks to me like they are paying the guards between 25 and 40 bucks an hour.
Pretty good pay for a guy with a GED.
50,000 and up for 2050 hrs. per year (Typical way to calculate) With overtime, some of them are making over 70 K and a few over 100k. It's not like they are Muni bus drivers or SF city employees.
Plus, lots of vacation and a hell of a lot better pension plan than you will find in 99 percent of the private sector.
Sure makes the job a lot less shitty.
[ October 08, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: BiggusJimbus ]

MagicMtnDan
10-09-2003, 06:06 AM
Mrs. Sportin' Wood:
Jobs are the only reason the California real estate market is so hot. . .well, that and the weather. :) Not exactly. Try these reasons too:
* Supply vs. demand - low inventory & many buyers
* Low interest rates - make it a great time to buy
* More money available - people have sold stocks and have more money available to spend
* Rising home prices - enable people to sell theirs at a profit and move up to a new home
[ October 09, 2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: MagicMtnDan ]

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 08:40 AM
All this talk of fear of setting a precedent.
My big fear is that it won't. I'm hoping this will set the exact precedent the the polititions and bureaucrats fear it will!

BUSTI
10-09-2003, 08:49 AM
Sprinter, Bingo!!!!! you are right!

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 08:51 AM
I was sickend by Cruz Busti's "Tough Love" analogy.
Tough love is something you inflict on an addict or a misbehaving youth when they mess up. It is not something politicians should inflict upon the public after they (the politicians) screw up.
I wanted to smack Busti every time I heard him abuse that phrase.
[ October 09, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 08:57 AM
BUSTI:
Sprinter, Bingo!!!!! you are right! Thanks.
P.S. I'm sorry that I use your fourum name as a short for Cruz B. It's just that his name is such a pain to write out..... wink

summerlove
10-09-2003, 09:22 AM
BoatFloating:
[QUOTE]
Kilrtoy, you and summerlove need to do your homework before you call me out on the facts. Big Jim Hey BF: My facts were right. I was only commenting on your statement where you said, and I quote:
"There is not a union across the nation that gives 90% salary at 50 years old retirement. We call this Davis Payoff"
I only called you out on that qute - nothing more.
You go on to attack me, because I corrected your post. I did not get inflammatory, and then you say this about me:
"Coming from your left wing pie hole is a funny statement. Somed your statment have about as much truth as Davis smear attacks."
What have I said that is untrue? I have also not said anything bad about any of the candidates, and in fact, if you read my earlier post on this subject, I said the following:
"I do, however, hope Arnold makes the tough decisions. Also, he says he wants to represent all of California. I believe him. I wish him the best of luck and hope that he's the most successful Governor in California history."
What's so bad about that? I think I've brought a rather rational approach to the entire discussion. I haven't called anyone any names or impugned anyone's integrity. I have only tried to offer an opinion, generally, however, contrary to the majority of members on these boards. I have tried to make a correction if information is incorrect, as your's was.
Don't blast me because your statemet was incorrect, I was only making it known that there are more unions out there that have similar retirement plans (and or better) then the prison guards.
Hope this clarifies...

mirvin
10-09-2003, 09:35 AM
I was sickend by Cruz Busti's "Tough Love" analogy. NO Shit!! That's rediculous. What we need is "Tough Love" for our legislators, which is what we just gave em.
Saddest part about the whole Bustamonte platform was that lot's of people bought into it because they had cars valued under 20 grand!!

MagicMtnDan
10-09-2003, 09:47 AM
Kilrtoy:
You are right, he got smoked.
But he gave the guards a 34% pay raise. Wholly shit they were making 7.29 an hour. Shit in and out pays 8.25. These are the people that watch these shit holes. They deserved a raise. even with what they make now I WOULD NEVER WANT THERE JOB. That is some crazy shit.
Does anybody think they dont deserve that raise. I don't know if your numbers are correct but besides, this isn't about if they deserved a raise. This is about PAYBACK and Gray Davis' Standard Operating Procedure (SOP). There are too many examples of Gray Davis being bought by special interest groups and Gray Davis repaid their "investment" in him (donations) by giving them OUR MONEY.
Example: Davis gave the Prison Guards a HUGE, over-the-top raise (see other post with details).
Example: Davis gave Oracle Software a big order after they gave him a big donation. As I recall this one really got a spotlight shined on it and Davis and his cronies were squirming.
Don't you realize that the Indians giving Boostie and Davis money (yes, Davis got money too - just not as much as Boostie) meant that they EXPECTED to be well taken care of after Boostie (or Davis) were governor?
Why do you think that Bill Clinton tried so hard to help Davis stay in office? Because both Bill and Gray SOLD US OUT - Bill sold the Lincoln bedroom in the White House and allowed top secrets to go to the Chinese. Gray's a piker compared to Bill since he was only selling out Cal-lee-fornia and not the entire country.

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 09:48 AM
Summerlove/kilrtoy
Your arguments are always well stated and you avoid name calling. You and Kilrtoy have always had my respect on these boards, even though I disagree with many of your political choices.
Summerlove
I know you have been raised Democrat and as a state employee your politics reflects what you think is best for your family and the state.
I used to vote Dem as well for those same reasons. However, during the 90s my experiances quickly taught me otherwise. Obviously your's have been different than mine. That's all. I take no offense at you having a different political philosophy than mine. And I am looking forward to meeting you (and Kilrtoy) at the lake.
P.S. I put you both in this not for the purpose of lumping you together for your political views, but rather to save time and space because I've wanted to say basically the same thing to you both. :cool:
[ October 09, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

BoatFloating
10-09-2003, 10:43 AM
Summerlove, your right the pie hole comment is out of line and I aplogize I was fired up that night. We have different views of where the state is heading. I know Davis did a crappy job and needed to go, you may of felt different being a State employee. Your family and your well being might be affected and I can understand your point.
The point of pension is the guards need less time served to qualify for big pension and that is better than the majority of civil servants.
I think we all can agree something good needs to happen here in Calif...... :D

summerlove
10-09-2003, 10:53 AM
BoatFloating:
Summerlove, your right the pie hole comment is out of line and I aplogize I was fired up that night. We have different views of where the state is heading. I know Davis did a crappy job and needed to go, you may of felt different being a State employee. Your family and your well being might be affected and I can understand your point.
The point of pension is the guards need less time served to qualify for big pension and that is better than the majority of civil servants.
I think we all can agree something good needs to happen here in Calif...... :D I 100% agree - something needs to be done right - and right now! So much is said that Grey did this and that, alot of it is speculation and political conjecture. I don't know about the Oracle thing, but it is hard to get a contract with any govt agency - there is something called the competitive bid process. They are an approved supplier with the state, and the state can send thier biz to Oracle if they want. I don't know the circumstances behind it, but I find it hard to believe the Gov could direct IT staff on a statewide basis to buy big from Oracle.
All politicians accept contributions from many different companies and individuals, hoping they will remember them when the time comes. It's not right, but it's done by both parties.
Also, I am not, nor is any member of my family a state employee.
[ October 09, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: summerlove ]

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 12:17 PM
Summerlove
I'm sorry, I'm the one who said the state employee thing in my above post. :(
I thought you said you were once, in another thread. I must be mistaken. You once mentioned your qualifications and your job and somehow I thought it was with the state. Is it with another more local agency? (If you can answer without being uncomfortably specific). :cool:
[ October 09, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

summerlove
10-09-2003, 12:42 PM
eliminatedsprinter:
Summerlove
I'm sorry, I'm the one who said the state employee thing in my above post. :(
I thought you said you were once, in another thread. I must be mistaken. You once mentioned your qualifications and your job and somehow I thought it was with the state. Is it with another more local agency? (If you can answer without being uncomfortably specific). :cool: No problem, I work for a city, the closest people get to their government. For what it's worth, IMHO, muni employees are very talented people who (for the most part)live and work in the community they serve. So, if I sometimes sound biased, it's because I am. I also realize at the higher levels of govt, there is a tremendous amount of waste and unfortunately once programs are established they are hard to eliminate - especially if they are entrenched.
I also acknowledge, that Govt, at any level, is unfairly blamed when things go bad, and when things are good, it's a cyclical thing. Govt does a tremendous amount of good in our society, there are programs to protect us, educate us, and provide freedoms for us. While it's not perfect, it's the best thing going. Everyone should learn more about their local government and the services they provide - you'd be amazed! In our case, and I bet in most other muni's, YOUR tax dollars are well spent and in a manner that is consistent with what the public expects! Do we make mistakes, hell yes we do, but we are right way more than we're wrong. (Lynwood excepted!)
Thanks for asking!

eliminatedsprinter
10-09-2003, 12:57 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
I work for the Federal Gov and the longer I work for the feds the more libertarian my views get. Especially after working for that last godawfull administration. Somehow they managed (through Al Gore's incompetent "reinventing") to make the agency I work for do a whole lot less at much greater expense.

Seadog
10-09-2003, 01:05 PM
I have to wonder if we were to make the law state that only a certain percentage of the state income could go to legislative pay and benefits, how much would that save. Imagine telling a congressman that because of less state income, he has to take a pay cut or lay aides off.

summerlove
10-09-2003, 01:18 PM
Seadog:
I have to wonder if we were to make the law state that only a certain percentage of the state income could go to legislative pay and benefits, how much would that save. Imagine telling a congressman that because of less state income, he has to take a pay cut or lay aides off. You're mixing apples and oranges. Congressmen are federal representatives, along with US Senators. State legislators are just that, state reps. By and large, politicians don't make that much money, so for 435 members of congress, their salaries are a very, very, very small drop in the overall budget bucket. Same goes for state reps, who make less than their federal counterparts. Just wanted to clarify, but I know what you mean, and really, while individually it may sound like alot, it's not all that much money. They need to maintain 2 residences, one in their home district and one in the D.C. area.
Here it is for Congress for the current year:
2003
$154,700 per annum $166,700 per annum for Leaders; $192,600 per annum for Speaker

ROZ
10-09-2003, 01:24 PM
summerlove:
(home)one in the D.C. area. I'm pretty sure they're on some type of full or partial reimbursment schedule for this expense...I'm sure their CPA knows how to take care of them.... wink
[ October 09, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

summerlove
10-09-2003, 01:26 PM
ROZ:
summerlove:
(home)one in the D.C. area. I'm pretty sure they're on some type of full or partial reimbursment schedule for this expense... Yea, you're probably right. I'm sure they get some sort of daily "stipend" that's not included in salary and flies under the radar...

OGShocker
10-09-2003, 01:32 PM
Sorry for the CUT & PASTE!!!!
When are Members of Congress considered vested and eligible to receive a pension? And how much is that pension? Monticello, Arkansas - 9/28/00
Members who have participated in the congressional pension system are vested after 5 years of service. A full pension is available to Members 62 years of age with 5 years of service; 50 years or older with 20 years of service; or 25 years of service at any age. A reduced pension is available depending upon which of several different age/service options is chosen. If Members leave Congress before reaching retirement age, they may leave their contributions behind and receive a deferred pension later.
How much they receive depends on a complicated formula based on when they joined Congress, how old they are at the time of retirement, how many years of service they had at the time of retirement (including previous military or other federal service), their salary, and which pension option they chose when they enrolled. In any case, a Member's pension amount may not exceed 80% of his/her salary upon retirement.
Since January 1, 1984, all Members of Congress also participate in the Social Security system and are required to pay Social Security taxes.
Members who were elected after 1984 are automatically part of the FERS, or Federal Employees' Retirement System. Members elected before 1984 were in the CSRS, or Civil Service Retirement System. In 1984, those Members in CSRS had to choose to remain with CSRS, or switch to FERS. The Members elected before 1984 could further choose between full CSRS benefits, plus Social Security or CSRS benefits offset by Social Security.
A further variant in the amount of retirement benefits received is whether or not Members under either system choose to participate in the voluntary Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) open to all federal employees. Members under CSRS may contribute up to 5% of their salary and FERS Members 10% of their salary into this tax-deferred retirement investment fund. The differential favoring FERS Members is because pension benefits paid out under the old CSRS system are higher than those paid out under the current FERS system.
Both CSRS and FERS have differing formulas combining age and service factors which further affect how much a specific Member's pension will pay out. Therefore, the only solid averages concerning benefit payments are those that come from the just over 400 retired Members now actually drawing pensions.
The average annuity for retired Members, as of 1998, was either $50,616 [for those that retired under CSRS] or $46,908 [for Members that retired under FERS]. However, these averages don't take into account any additional funds these Members may have also accrued through investments in the Thrift Savings Plan described above.
Congressional pensions are funded the same way as those of other federal employees: through a combination of general tax provisions and contributions from the participants. Members of Congress in the FERS plan must pay 1.3% of their salary to FERS and 6.2% in Social Security taxes.
For more detailed information concerning pension benefits and age and service formulas under both CSRS and FERS, I recommend you obtain a copy of "Retirement Benefits for Members of Congress", a report by Patrick Purcell of the Congressional Research Service. [CRS Report RL30631, July 31, 2000]. CRS reports are free, but can only be obtained by requesting them through the office of a Member of Congress.
You can identify and contact your own 3 Members of Congress on C-SPAN's Write to Congress page.