Battle with the neighbors...

[Wet Dream]

Here's the low down on the battle. 506 and 506A are owned by my neighbor/ friend. 510 is my place. The only access I have to my back yard with any vehicle or machinery is through the alleys, that are listed by the borough. He (506) just put in a pool last summer and is going to fence off the alleys to keep the stupid dogs in and the kids out, eliminating my access. Although the alleys are not in use other than what we do, can I keep him from putting a fence up?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/352Alley-med.jpg

[dcb carrera]

I would think that is an access for the fire department and he can't fence it off.

[mike37]

I dont think he can that is an ezment the way it looks look on your deed of trust if you own it tells property lines and ezment for your property
just my .o2

[77charger]

Is there a way that if he goes ahead with it can he be talked into putting up a fence with gates that way he can have his fence but you can still have acces.

[Tom Brown]

Have you tried talking to him to see if he'll put some gates in so you and your neighbours can still have your access? Maybe there is a compromise that would make everyone happy. Additionally, having it fenced off like that would keep the riff-raff out of your back yard. If it were my house, I would worry about the criminal element using the easement to loot your joint.

[Wet Dream]

Crime is minimal here and fences are few and far between. He did say that there would be gates (locked) and I would have a key, but thats not the point. I have to look at the future when selling the house, would a potential buyer be hesitant if he had to access gates through a neighbors yard? If he fenced it off, would he block it any way so that I can't get through without having to move a bunch of crap? This is the same guy that told me that if I helped him build his shed for the motorcycles, I could keep mine in there too. That lasted less than a year. He moved my bike out and has sat outside all winter long. I just won't be pushed around when it comes to my property.

[MJ19]

Curious, could he compromise and put in an eletrical fence system so that you can have access with the push of a button?

[Wet Dream]

MJ19:
Curious, could he compromise and put in an eletrical fence MJ, you're a doll and you've got me laughing once again. If it were that easy, I would have no problem, but the only electrical fence system that he would put in would be hooked up to a minimum of 110volts and would shock the crap out of you if you touched it.

[Rexone]

I'd think your deed should have legal reference if that's an access easement to your property. If it is then I'd think he'd not be able to legally put the fence up. That alley seems like it was put there for a reason, otherwise why not just make the lots bigger originally? Just my guess.

[Hallett19]

that should be an easement for your property, at least that would be according to CA laws which I think are very similar across the country. A neighbor wanted to fence up an easment that we used to get to the bottom of my dad's yard and he was unable too.

[Seadog]

First off, if there are any utilities in the alley, he cannot fence it off without permission. second off, there is a law that states you cannot deny access where it has traditionally existed. For example, if previous owners had allowed the public or someone else to use a path through your property to access a beach or park or something, you can be stuck with that path for a long time. Your best bet is to talk to the local zoning board and find out what they say. Then think about getting a legal opinion. Once he fences it in, he may sell it and you could have no access at all.

[HammerDown]

Wet, SeaDog makes some valid points...I pretty much have to kiss my neighbors butt because he lets me keep a small section of fence down so I'm able to "jack" my boat in and out every weekend. I actually cut across a small section(10 ft.) of there property.
I hate to put my lips on anyone's A$$...but we do what we must to go Boating.

[Mandelon]

Go to the County Assessor's office or call a title insurance company and ask for help. You want to see what "Deed Restrictions" affect those lots shown in the map above. You are looking for an "Easement" which will hopefully be described in the deed restrictions.
The other point made above is for what would be called a "Prescriptive Easement", which you may have gained from your open and notorious use the alley for a statutory time period. You'd have to check the laws of your state to see if you qualify.
Obviously it would be great to keep the situation friendly, but there may be no other option than showing him the laws..(hopefully) ...Good Luck! :)

[Tom Brown]

If it were me, I'd see if Frank and 508 are on side with your gripe and try to stay united. If so, it will be more difficult for Ken to blame you directly. Otherwise it's the Ken versus Bill feud.

[Mandelon]

Just buy lot 511!! And then tell Ken to kiss your ass...

[Tom Brown]

Once you get this resolved, you should buy a T-square for the civil engineer who designed this neighbourhood.

[spectratoad]

I just spoke to my wife who is a civil engineer here with th City of Reno. She said, this is Reno rules, that he can't do that. That is an access easement. I would go to the city and see what their input is. If it has been a common access and there are utilities he can't block. I would try to ultimitely tell him to fence his yard and not the alley. Just because he put a pool in doesn't give him the right to block that alley, unless part of the pool is in the alley?!?! :D

[C-2]

What does your county assessor’s office say? You have a copy of the parcel map, so I am assuming you already contacted the assessor? If not, that should be your first step.
It looks to me like the alleys are regular public access (same as a road), and if your neighbor thinks he can put up a fence then he is mistaken. Granted they might not look like a road, but for public transitional purposes they are the same. Technically and legally you might not have any rights to the alleys either. As others have suggested, get a copy of you grant deed. It will enumerate any specific easement you have, if any. If you don’t have any easement on your deed then you don’t have a legal right to use the alleys for your own convenience (sorry, not trying to be a dick, only trying to help). If you do have an easement and he puts up a fence, then it could create a “cloud” on title (not just for you but for every easement holder including the knucklehead), meaning that no title insurance can be issued. No title insurance, no sale (or refinance) since nobody can guarantee that title is free and clear without any claims. He would be emancipating your easements rights.
Your neighbor is way off on this one. Does the county know about his plot to acquire an additional 3,100 sq feet of lot (minimum) without paying for it, or more importantly, without paying taxes on it? How about the neighbor at 504 and 504a, maybe they would like an extra 8’ feet of that alley?
Also as others have suggested, most likely there are utility easements in place, just because they haven’t been used for a long time doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Some utility easements/mineral rights easements last for periods of up to 100 years.
Now that private road you identify down the way is a whole different ballgame and probably falls within the adverse possession theory.
I do quite a bit of work for numerous cities and counties involving land use litigation. Feel free to ask away!
C2

[Big Proppa]

In my opinion I wouldn't imagine him owning any of the property other than whats designated in the boxes shown - he bought two lots - these two lots have seperate square foot dimensions - That is all he owns and does not have the right to fence across land un owned by him - I'm with MJ19 I think an electric gate would be cool though - maybe instead of fighting the issue switch it around to some sort of a benefit - electric gate and pool parties for all your ***boat buddies at his place :D
[ March 24, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Big Proppa ]

[Seadog]

Since it appears that he is the type to change his mind about deals without any consideration for you, I would not cut him much slack. If he doesn't like what you do, tell him that your lawyer said you had to do it to preserve the assetts of your property. He can fence in his yards to prevent trespassing without cutting off the alley. You should also get your neighbors involved if posssible. It does not sound like your are going to be able to maintain a cordial relationship with this guy no matter what you do, so protect your rights.

[dorC]

One quick hand written letter to the city will resove this. In order to put up the fence that he wants, he won't be able to get a permit. Cities don't like this very much. They will take corrective action. It may take a while, but let them do the leg work for you. If you want to save face, this could be a good way to do it. The city won't reveal who (if anybody) turned him in. Because it's across the alley, they might have just noticed it while performing maintenance.

[Wet Dream]

Here is the legal description of my property as stated in my deed.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/352Legal-med.jpg

[Liberator TJ1984]

Laws may be different in CA. ???
I tried to fence in an alleyway beside my shop, meter reader drives his S-10 truck down it and when it rains hard the ground gets soft and he breaks my water line to the shop...
Good friend on Fire Dept. said it cannot be blocked because it is there for Emergency Situations..
Ck w/ local FD or Police first and if it is Illegal, maybe suggest he check with them first ?? that way its not like you are the one ratting him out
Just my 2*
Gopherrr

[Wet Dream]

I appreciate everyones input on this. In response to some of the comments, This alley is not paved at all, its just like a grassy drive. His pool and house are situated on lot 506A. A shed is on 506. The only purpose I can come up with is that this alley was built do be able to deliver coal to the limited houses back in the day. My house was built back in the coal days and we are on a slope. I would buy 511 if given the chance, and I would build one hell of a garage. :D I totally agree with SeaDog, I need to protect my interests. Tom Brown, I don't have a clue how they came up with the lot sizes or shapes. Back then, drinking at work was probably acceptable. If it goes to the borough (east coast slang for city) decides to split the alleys and give the property owners equal share, thats ok, but I'm still screwed unless I can get 511 to let me buy a driveway through his yard. I sent Ken an email that reads" I hope you rethink your plans for your fence." We sent a few back and forth and a phone call or two. He said he's going to keep building it. I told him I'll have the city tear it down. He was pretty head strong until I scanned and emailed him the copy of the lot sizes and then he replied that he will check with the city today. I'm waiting for him to get home any minute. :D
[ March 25, 2003, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Wet Dream ]

[C-2]

It doesn’t look like you (or probably any of the neighbors) have an easement that gurantees you use of the alley. Good news is you don’t have to worry about a cloud on title if he puts the fence up, bad news is that takes away a strong bargaining chip in your favor.
I would continue to tell him not to do it, and if he does, revert to what dorC said with a letter to either the city or county, I would start with a city code enforcement officer.
He’s gonna be pissed eek! eek!

[Ziggy]

Most of the guys have made the point...it has been an easement for a prolonged period so it can't be blocked simply for that reason...and it may contain some sort of utilities that need to be left accessable for the city. If nothing else and he puts up the fence just contact the code enforcement dept.---they make him take it down in a hurry.

[Back To Havasu]

As a California attorney, I believe you would be best served by first going to your city or county officials and ask them to intercede so you won't be landlocked. If they are unable or unwilling to act, there is no substitute for obtaining legal advice from an attorney specializing in real property law in your state, and hopefully area. Laws do vary from state to state, and no amount of well-intentioned advice on this board will substitute for the advice of an attorney familiar with your laws. If you can't prevent the property owner from putting up the fence, you might want to ask your attorney about legal remedies, if any, against the prior owner who sold you the property, for failing (if that's the case) to advise you of the potential for landlock. Just my $.02. wink

[Wet Dream]

Sounds good guys, I'll keep you posted. Thanks again.

[Wet Dream]

UPDATE!!! I WON.
The neighbors decided to take a run to the Borough office and see what they can do about it. They were turned away and are disappointed. yuk Legally the alleys are closed and are split evenly to the properties that it runs with, but the added square footage is not added to your taxes. Even though you gain that ground, you CANNOT put a fence or block this portion of the property in any way. :)
[ March 24, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Wet Dream ]

[JetBoatRich]

Congratulations on the victory :D

[MJ19]

Wet Dream:
MJ19:
Curious, could he compromise and put in an eletrical fence MJ, you're a doll and you've got me laughing once again. If it were that easy, I would have no problem, but the only electrical fence system that he would put in would be hooked up to a minimum of 110volts and would shock the crap out of you if you touched it. You've got me laughing now...I didn't mean a shocking eletrical fence, I meant one that opens and closes with a clicker...a gate rather then a fence...like gated communities have :D
LOL at the thought of the kickback from the shock you'd get on a 100 volt fence eek! :D

[MJ19]

BTW ~ Congrats on the victory!!! :D

[Jrocket]

Wet Dream:
UPDATE!!! I WON.
The neighbors decided to take a run to the Borough office and see what they can do about it. They were turned away and are disappointed. yuk Legally the alleys are closed and are split evenly to the properties that it runs with, but the added square footage is not added to your taxes. Even though you gain that ground, you CANNOT put a fence or block this portion of the property in any way. :) I highly recommend taking a whole Saturday and driving back and forth as many times as you can in your car up and down that alley!!!!!! :p
BTW,dont forget to hit the horn, now and again, to get his attention!!!
:D

[Wet Dream]

Thanks MJ, LMAO Jrocket.