anyone(in az) see the front page of the az republic today

[future boater]

seems the aclu thinks the quotes of psalms 68:4, 66:4, and 104:24 are unconstituional. they were removed from the plaques the three most popular view points at the south rim of the grand canyon. what a crock of ........what is this country coming to?

[randy77zt]

sounds like something they politicians would do in california.i heard they dont give government workers m.l.king's birthday off in az-is that true?i hope az isnt swinging to the left like ca is already.if so you will have smog devices on boats soon.

[Terrible Buddhist]

well, the more californians MOVE to AZ, the more left AZ is becoming. HOWEVER, as a conservative & a Catholoc, it baffles me that we would WANT religious references being tied to government. The idea of being a conservative is wanting as little government in our lives as possible. We are a democracy, and beleive in freedom of religion. Say 100 years down the road there are more Muslims living in the US than Christians, do you want to see verses from the Kuran at the Grand Canyon? I will never be able to figure out how as conservatives we want the Government to take on a limited role in our lives, yet want it to regulate issues like religion and abortion. These are private issues that should not have big brother sponsership. This is not to say we should not have personal opinions of them, and not to say we shouldn't try to evangelize (I use that word in its secular meaning) others to our opinions, but I for one do not trust government enough to handle such issues...especially when they can't even run amtrac! And another, even scarier thought...what happens if there is another Clinton in the white house...do you want HER to be your moral compass?

[Kurtis500]

well, the more californians MOVE to AZ, the more left AZ is becoming. Unless you got a boat or love the water...DONT! :D :p

[Catmando]

Terrible Buddhist:
well, the more californians MOVE to AZ, the more left AZ is becoming. HOWEVER, as a conservative & a Catholoc, it baffles me that we would WANT religious references being tied to government. The idea of being a conservative is wanting as little government in our lives as possible. We are a democracy, and beleive in freedom of religion. Say 100 years down the road there are more Muslims living in the US than Christians, do you want to see verses from the Kuran at the Grand Canyon? I will never be able to figure out how as conservatives we want the Government to take on a limited role in our lives, yet want it to regulate issues like religion and abortion. These are private issues that should not have big brother sponsership. This is not to say we should not have personal opinions of them, and not to say we shouldn't try to evangelize (I use that word in its secular meaning) others to our opinions, but I for one do not trust government enough to handle such issues...especially when they can't even run amtrac! And another, even scarier thought...what happens if there is another Clinton in the white house...do you want HER to be your moral compass? As a Liberal Atheist, I agree with this post(except for the Clinton reference). You can put all the ten commandments and Christian torture symbols(crosses) you want on your own private land/property. They DO NOT BELONG ON PUBLIC LANDS.

[91nordic29]

future boater:
seems the aclu thinks the quotes of psalms 68:4, 66:4, and 104:24 are unconstituional. they were removed from the plaques the three most popular view points at the south rim of the grand canyon. what a crock of ........what is this country coming to? FROM THE AZ REPUBLIC
Thanking heaven for godless Canyon
E.J.
Montini
Republic
columnist
Jul. 15, 2003 12:00 AM
Like you, I saw the front-page article in Monday's Arizona Republic describing how plaques with Bible verses on them were being removed from the Grand Canyon, and I thought to myself, "Thank God."
Like you, I switched on the radio while driving to work and heard local talk-show hosts furiously discussing the plaques and their impact on the separation of church and state, and I thought to myself, "Hallelujah."
Then I got into the office and a number of you had left messages on my answering machine or sent e-mails stating without qualification that a guy with my job had a professional obligation to write something about this outlandish controversy. And I thought to myself, "Amen."
I pushed my chair away from my desk, got down on my knees and (after some frightful under-the-desk revelations involving long lost snack food) thanked the Man Upstairs for answering the prayers of people everywhere.
Apparently, we are no longer losing a soldier a day in Iraq, because if brave, young Americans still were being killed in what so many of us consider to be a godforsaken country, then surely we wouldn't have time to obsess about a few plaques that even those of us who have actually been to the Grand Canyon didn't know existed.
Sometime overnight, the Big Fella must have cleared up that whole Arab-Israeli situation, too. And folks in Afghanistan evidently aren't fighting one another anymore or trying to kill American men and woman. And I guess we've got nothing to worry about over in Liberia or any other country.
And no problems at home, it seems. While the rest of us slept, the Head Honcho must have cleared up any lingering issues we have had with affirmative action, discrimination or immigration. If not, the folks at the Arizona Civil Liberties Union would not have had time to send letters of concern to the National Park Service complaining about the plaques.
Similarly, the Almighty must have cleared up any messy situation going on with federal land use, timber sales, commercialization, pollution or preservation of the nation's most precious natural resources. If not, the Park Service wouldn't have had the time to answer some cockamamie correspondence about Bible verses.
It must be the Lord Himself who blew out the forest fires. We just haven't noticed yet. That's got to be it because no intelligent, concerned individual in this state would waste time complaining about the fact that rock formations named after Hindu gods would not be changed when the beautiful area in which we live is going up in flames and dying of thirst from a multiyear drought.
I feel really bad about this. People are always telling journalists that we don't pay enough attention to the good news. Clearly that is true. If it were not the case, we'd have noticed that the Supreme Being took a few moments to rid us of all crime, poverty, illness and cruelty. He must have. If there were actual problems in this world, would the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary, the pious order of nuns who mounted the plaques, take the time to issue a statement saying that they were "stunned"?
Then again, the TV sets in the newsroom Monday showed scenes of forest fires. They showed soldiers taking cover in Iraq. This, while some people argued about plaques, as if such things are needed to inspire those seeing the Grand Canyon. Still, I knelt down and thanked the Lord. I had to. It turns out that it wasn't the prayers of the pious that God had answered, but those of talk-show hosts and newspaper columnists.

[Terrible Buddhist]

so which God exactly answered those prayers...Jesus, RA, Allah, Zeus? Oh, I know...ask the government, they will tell you.
The other side of that argument...we should focus on more important things right now (as if there are many more important things than our freedoms) is short sighted at best. It humors me to no end when people come on the news and say idiotic garbage like...we can't be looking for Bin Laden AND fight Saddam at the same time! I am guessing those people either 1) have no concept of our armed forces or 2) Can't walk and chew gum at the same time...it could be both.

[Terrible Buddhist]

Oh...as to MLK day, if I remember correctly (I moved a couple years ago), people get MLK day off, but lost Presidents day...which to me is a travesty. The reason WHY they even have MLK day though was because the NFL Black players said they would boycott coming to Arizona for the superbowl if Arizona did not declare MLK day a holiday. And in the hipocracy files, the same black leadership that fought so hard to have the man who pushed for equality among the races, now applaud the Supreme Court's decision to allow affirmative action to continue. Why is this decision so offensive? Because either races are equal or they are not. I prefer to think we are. So, how about this: Racism is racism, no matter what race it is being practiced against. We are all entitled to equal opportunity and should be judged on the merit of our own abilities and work...that is after all the capitalist way, and while my paycheck says I live in a socialist society, my voters registration card says differently.

[hes4u]

I'm a Christian; that's why my name is hes4u. Do I think there's a problem with having verses in public? Yes and no. I do respect others feeling because that's what our great country was founded on. But if some one wants to climb a cliff along the Colorado river and risk his or her life and write a verse, or anything else thats pretty much O.K. with me. As long as its clean for the kids!
One thing that I can tell you is that our great fore-fathers who found this country and wrote the Declaration of Independence in 1776 had great faith in God. They even made statements that for a document of such perfections was not written by man alone.
I also thank our fore-fathers for reconizing Liberal Atheist like Catmando, and giving him the freedom to speak with freewill and to go to hell if he so choses. I personnaly chose HEAVEN.
And for the torture symbol, that God Jesus did for me and you. I think it was more painfull to carry all our sins to the cross than to die on it.
Thanks God for all the great boating that you give us in this great country.

[eliminatedsprinter]

I'm mostly a libertarian and I think MLK's day is a fine holiday. However, if it were up to me, Frederick Douglass would have been the first black American to have his own holiday. He actually came from slavery and accomplished at least as much (probably more) in a much more difficult era.
[ July 15, 2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

[Dave C]

The constitution says Freedom of Religion... not freedom from religion.
It means that you are free to practice what ever religion you want to, including not having one. It was meant to restrict religious persecution by the government sanctioning one religion over another.
It doesn't mean that we get rid of all signs of everyone's religion in public places as the ACLU seems to think.

[Catmando]

eliminatedsprinter:
I'm a mostly a libertarian and I think MLK's day is a fine holiday. However, if it were up to me, Frederick Douglass would have been the first black American to have his own holiday. He actually came from slavery and accomplished at least as much (probably more) in a much more difficult era. Absolutely. Douglass knew all the women's rights pioneers too-Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, et al. He supported them because he saw his victory over slavery in their fight.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Dave C:
The constitution says Freedom of Religion... not freedom from religion.
It means that you are free to practice what ever religion you want to, including not having one. It was meant to restrict religious persecution by the government sanctioning one religion over another.
It doesn't mean that we get rid of all signs of everyone's religion in public places as the ACLU seems to think. The ACLU only even pretends to support the odd numbered ammendments.
It's nothing more than a leftist legal action committe. Even when they support far right wing groups it's only so they can stir up crap and embarrass the right.
Again however, I must admit this is just my informed opinion. I don't have enough absolute proof to call it a rock solid fact, no matter how obvious their pattern is.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Catmando:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by eliminatedsprinter:
[Absolutely. Douglass knew all the women's rights pioneers too-Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, et al. He supported them because he saw his victory over slavery in their fight. I've got to admit I like it that we can agree on that.

[mickeyfinn]

I agree the first ammendment was intended to keep the government out of the church. It was not meant to keep the church out of government. Religous references are everywhere in our government.
In god we trust
One nation under god
just to name two.
This will probably get me slammed by some here but I believe that if the majority of people in a given area wish to have religous quotes or pictures or whatever in the government owned buildings, parks etc it is their right. If the minority of the people are offended by it then they are free to find other places to visit or live. The states in this country are supposed to have a lot of lattitude in governing themselves and the original idea was that our leaders recognized that people with similar interest tend to congregate together in the same areas and to allow them to rule themselves as they saw fit. If a majority of people in a given area are Muslim and they wish to have the Kuran displayed it should be their right. If that majority changes over time and the new majority wishes to remove it that should also be their right. I get so tired of the atheist and the other Hell bound people doing every thing in their power to discredit the idea of God and people's belief in him.

[mickeyfinn]

double post
[ July 15, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: mickeyfinn ]

[Dave C]

I try not to use words like God & Jesus because an Atheist might "offended." wink The atheists need to lighten up a little.
I don't beleive in Buddha or Allah but I don't get my panties turned in a bunch when someone mentions them.

[Terrible Buddhist]

Places like the Grand Canyon are NATIONAL parks, so, a particular relgion should not have government money spent on its rhetoric, and I mean ANY religion. Where the founding founders Christian...ABSOLUTLEY, and henceforth WHY we see references to God...One nation under God was not added to the pledge until the 50s though...NOT by the founding fathers. Further, the people who settled this land at the time all represented some form of Christinianity, and so freedom of religion was at the time a very tolerable thing. Remember however, at the time people were cast out of England for the WAY they worshiped God. Today we have people who say, if you don't like my God, get out of my country! So, in a historical context of the constitution, it was meant to provide both freedom of and freendom from religion...yes, it was supposed to keep religion out of government...as a reaction to the way the churches ruled England. It was then that the leader of the country, chose the entire populations religion. This is a thought that makes people cringe today, yet we are ok with having the Government endorse certain religions. That is why we have the SEPERATION of church and state. I think most of us would be upset to find a pentagram at a lookout at the grand canyon...but what happens if most of the people in the area are satanists, and want one erected there with government money? Satanism is not a real religion? Ok, who provides the litmus test, and at what point does someone say a religion that shields priests who diddles little boys is not a religion, but an organization of perdophiles.
As to the people here going to heaven and those going to hell, you should re-read the passages in the bible about who Jesus saved...heres a hint...it wan't the pious and judgemental. And the next time you say the our father, remember the line...forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us. Jesus was not talking about climbing a fence to go for a swim in the neighbors pool. Further, why ARE you a Christian...well, probably because you were born into a Christian family, the same reason why many Muslims are muslim. *side note: I trully believe we are all worshiping the same God, just in different ways. The methods of worship were created to fit with a certain culture, and essentially get the same message across...love each other*
So, I will end with a quote from Niels Bohr, "Stop telling God what to do"