Hemi or Diesel? Milage vs. cost....?

[Outnumbered]

Were gonna trade the 02 Durango in on a 03 Quad-Cab 4x4 Dodge 2500 SB. The Diesel is about $4,500 more than the Hemi. The Hemi has more power than I need, the diesel has way more than I need. We pull a 21' now and will likely get a 24' soon. I don't think we want to go any bigger on the boat size.
Here are my concerns:
1) Hemi gets worse milage, I'm guessing 12mpg (anybody have one?) Diesel gets about 15-20mpg from what I hear.
2)Hemi comes with the 5-spd auto which is the same tranny that is in my Durango 4.7. It works great but with over 100 more horsepower--how will it hold up?
3) Diesel costs $4,500 more eek!
4) Diesel stink, noise, and grime on the boat while towing.
5) The wife will be driving it a lot...she may not dig the diesel stink and noise.
Lets hear some opinions :D
Thanks!
OL

[HotHallet]

GET A DIESEL. I went all the way to Parker from L.A> on a half a tank. Not towing but still that is better than you will do with any gas motor.

[Havasu Cig]

Get a diesel...We are on our third one now and would never go back. You get used to the noise, and I have never had diesel film on the boat (maybe that is a Dodge thing :D ).

[HammerDown]

Diesel...that was easy enough!

[Trash]

1) Hemi gets worse milage, I'm guessing 12mpg (anybody have one?) Diesel gets about 15-20mpg from what I hear.
Something else to consider. It will take X amount of HP to tow the boat in a given condition. The diesel will attain that HP at a lower RPM than the gas motor. Since every engine has a certain number of revolutions to it's life, the diesel will last longer, plus most are built like tanks anyway. It's a lot more comforting hearing my diesel pull up hill at 2000 rpm than my gasser at 3800-4000!
) Diesel costs $4,500 more This was a concern too, but for my particular driving payback based on lower fuel prices and better mileage had a breakeven point at 66,000 miles.
) Diesel stink, noise, and grime on the boat while towing.
The stink is a non-issue. You won't smell the diesel when driving anymore than any other exhaust. It is noisier, probably the most valid complaint. I love the sound, others don't. At highway speeds it is NOT an issue though. Grime on the boat is a NON ISSUE. It simply doesn't happen (at least for me).

[CA Stu]

Diesel, hands down.
New ones ride OK, and like the others said, there is no film on my boat either. There is some on the rear quarterpanel of the truck sometimes, but I have a lead foot.
Get the diesel now and reap the benefits for years to come.
Good Luck
CA Stu

[91nordic29]

DURAMAX diesel!! :D

[STV_Keith]

You're on the right track. The ISBe Cummins in that Dodge can't be beat. The track record is great. Power? The HO makes 280hp to the rear wheels, and almost 500ft-lbs through the auto or 6-speed.
Smoke - not an issue on a new truck, especially stock. The injection pressure is way up on the new HPCR (high pressure common rail) systems, so smoke is down.
Noise - The ISBe is QUIETER than a Dmax.
Mileage - typically 16-18mpg stock for those these days w/3.73's. The 4.10 trucks get less though.
Longevity - The Cummins will outlast the gas motor about 3 to 1.
I've got a little experience with these trucks, and it's all positive.
Keith Lockliear
Diesel Dynamics (http://www.dieseldynamics.com)

[Jordy]

STV_Keith:
I've got a little experience with these trucks, and it's all positive.
Keith Lockliear
Diesel Dynamics (http://www.dieseldynamics.com) Just a little huh? :D
I would never buy another truck that wasn't a diesel. :D :D :D

[Outnumbered]

Thanks for the input. Looks like diesel is the winner :D . Now, I just found out that you can't get the HO in Cali and to top it off the Cali version even has 10 less HP than the non-Cali non-HO. Its only 235/460 HP/TQ in Cali vs 305/550 for the HO. Looks like I'll be going to Vegas. Anybody know a Dodge dealer in Vegas or AZ?
Thanks
OL

[STV_Keith]

Yep, go to Saitta-Trudeaux in Pahrump (on the 160). Tell them to beat Dave Smith in ID and they should be able to get you a great deal. Also, make sure you get a 49 state HO with the 48RE (48RE is only auto behind the HO). I know they carry CA trucks too. You might even have to go as far as registering it in NV for the first 6 months.

[Boozer]

Just curious..
The Hemi get's what kind of Gas mileage? I have a 5.9 in my Durango right now and pulling my 20' Bayliner I get about 8 MPG. Is the Hemi any better? I'm now wishing I would have bought a diesel but at the time towing a boat wasn't an issue.
Also.. If the hemi has the same tranny as the Durango I definitely wouldn't buy that combo. My Durango is stock with the exception of cold air intake and a glass pack muffler. At WOT when towing the transmission ocassionally slips out of gear and I have to let off the gas to let it re-engage. So I definitely wouldn't trust that tranny behind a Hemi.

[Outnumbered]

The 5.9 gets about the worst mileage from what I hear. Also, if its in the Durango its full time 4x4 which is even worse. My tranny is holding up fine with the 4.7 at 35k miles. Its been a great truck but its a lease and we have to get out of it 'cause we are driving it too much. The Ram will be a keeper and we will buy it so there will be no worries on the lease deal.
OL

[Outnumbered]

Hey, STV Keith. Thanks for the info. If I buy a local diesel in So Cal how much would it cost to get close to HO power out of it? I'm thinking it may be a pain to buy out of state. What do ya think?
Thanks,
Ol

[Boozer]

Old Lavey:
The 5.9 gets about the worst mileage from what I hear. Also, if its in the Durango its full time 4x4 which is even worse. My tranny is holding up fine with the 4.7 at 35k miles. Its been a great truck but its a lease and we have to get out of it 'cause we are driving it too much. The Ram will be a keeper and we will buy it so there will be no worries on the lease deal.
OL Mine isn't full time 4wd. I have a 4 wheel drive shifter.

[STV_Keith]

The Durango's are 4WD, meaning shiftable. My 5.9 Durango regularly gets 13mpg in town, 16mpg on the highway and 10mpg pulling 5000#.
There were some built (R/T's I believe) that were All wheel drive, meaning full time AWD.
The 4.7 motor seems stronger than my 5.9 in feel, and gets 2-3mpg better mileage around town from the few I've driven. Anyway you slice it, it's smaller and still doesn't get the mileage of the mighty Cummins.
OL, yes, you can get the SO (standard output) version and upgrade it...just be aware that with the same mods, you will always be behind an HO or even the 49-state SO truck. A CA SO truck with our True Torque Module will make about the same as a 49-state HO will stock. Currently, 200rwhp gain and 500ft-lbs is as much as we can provide for the customer (at about $4700 for parts). So if you start at 200rwhp + 200rwhp, you are at 400rwhp. A 49-state HO starts at ~275rwhp + 200rwhp and ends up about 475+rwhp.
See? :)
No there's something else...for the cost of a blower on a gasser, you can add 200+rwhp and 500+ft-lbs to a Cummins, and the mileage typically gets BETTER! jawdrop
[ July 09, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: STV_Keith ]

[Outnumbered]

Thanks Keith. On your site it looks like the True torque or the Ulimate fueling module would be all I need. I am not looking at a race rig I just want to have decent power and it seems the Cali truck is the dog of the bunch. The $649 to $799 price tag may be worth the convenience of buying local. Especially since the HO costs about $700 more than the SO.
But what about longevity and warranty? Can the dealer tell if this module has been installed? It looks like you can just take it out when you take the truck in for service. Is it hard on the motor? Cummins web site says the HO has some special pistons and such to handle the extra power.
http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/dodgeram/cummins24vturbodiesel.cfm
Any thoughts on that?
Thanks again,
OL
[ July 09, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Old Lavey ]

[STV_Keith]

The TTPM for the 03 truck is only $549. There is no Ultimate for the 03 (yet). Lifetime warranty on the unit. The cool thing is, it plugs in using stock harness plugs, to two sensors on the top of the intake manifold. Unplug it before going to the dealer...they can't even tell it was there. It takes roughly 2 minutes.
With the Cummins, anything under 600rwhp in a daily driver application will live about as long as it would if it were stock (350-400k miles before any real work, ie. valve job).
The pistons get a different oil sprayer on the HO, but not really anything that makes a difference in power or longevity. The power difference is in the computer program ONLY.
[ July 10, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: STV_Keith ]

[Outnumbered]

Thanks Keith, that is good news because I am finding out more and more that the HO is hard to get into Cali. I am trying to hook up a SO truck right now and after I do I will give you a call. $549 sounds like a good deal for the power gains.
Thanks again,
John (OL)

[STV_Keith]

Try to option the 48RE trans if you can...it's WAY better than the 47RE. The 47RE is good for 275rwhp, the 48RE is good for 400rwhp!

[Outnumbered]

Hey Keith,
Well, I did it. Tonight I picked up an '03 Dodge Quad 2500 4x4 Cummins SO. Nice truck. Plenty of power. Its got the 48RE with 3.73s and stock tires for now. I'm kind of freekin' on the milage computer though. It is only showing about 10 mpg and got down as low as 7.5 mpg on the way up to Arrowhead. I was cruising and didn't push it at all. Cruised 60 up the hill no problem, barely pushing the "gas". My buddy gets 16-18 mpg mountain driving with his. On the TDR forum no one is getting below 14 and many are over 20. I am thinking something is wrong. Is this just a brake-in thing or should I take it back on monday and have the dealer take a look?
Thanks,
OL

[STV_Keith]

Gotta check that thing at the pump. Don't rely on the overhead. Go 500 miles, then hook up to the heaviest trailer you can find to start breaking it in. The Cummins needs load to break it in properly. The sooner you do that, the sooner the mileage and power will start to come up.

[clownpuncher]

DDP
[ July 14, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: clownpuncher ]

[clownpuncher]

Pro's of a diesel
1 Torque
2 Better mileage
3 Cheaper fuel
4 Your dog will hear you comin down the block and meet you at your front door
Con's
1 Higher start-up cost
2 Not all gas stations carry diesel
3 Noise
4 And finally, you always gotta shut it off so's the lady can here you at the Del Taco drive-thru
JBR, I'd stay away from the 6.0 Powerstroke. I haven't heard one good thing about it, only bad. The 7.3 has been around for years and runs great.
[ July 14, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: clownpuncher ]

[JetBoatRich]

clownpuncher:
JBR, I'd stay away from the 6.0 Powerstroke. I haven't heard one good thing about it, only bad. The 7.3 has been around for years and runs great. I trying to find information now, both good and bad. A friend of mine just bought one and loves the thing frown

[Outnumbered]

Thanks Keith,
My fault. I re-set the computer after reading the book and we drove to Big Bear and back (60 miles rnd trp) and averaged 14.5 MPG with the AC on mountain roads :D
I know its not a Geo Metro but 7.5 MPG had me thinking something wasn't right.
FYI for others looking at Diesels: We decided on the dodge because its about $5,000 less than the Chevy, has a better warranty, and has a solid front axle (sits way higher than Chevy and easier/simpler to lift). And oh yea...the Cummins is the sh@t :D
Have not heard much good about Ford so we didn't even look at 'em.
OL

[STV_Keith]

clownpuncher:
Con's
3 Noise
4 And finally, you always gotta shut it off so's the lady can here you at the Del Taco drive-thru
JBR, I'd stay away from the 6.0 Powerstroke. I haven't heard one good thing about it, only bad. The 7.3 has been around for years and runs great. FYI, the 7.3 is no longer available (there may be a few left on the lots, but it's being phased out).
The new HPCR Cummins in the '03 Dodges is QUIETER than a Duramax for instance...no more shutting it off. :)

[Outnumbered]

It's much quieter than I expected. Keith is right, the Chevy is louder. And doesn't Isuzu make the Chevy motor??? That alone would scare me eek!
We love this truck :D
OL

[HP350SC]

Funny how nobody talks about the 75$ oil changes,the $4500 extra on sticker,double the price for fuel/air filters.But yeah,IF you drive a lot and keep your truck a long time it will break even.Also if your financing the truck,how much more interest are you paying on the $4500?Just some food for thought!

[HP350SC]

As far as mileage on the hemi,my friend and I got 10mpg avg. on 2100 mile trip last week.This was towing a 26' travel trailer from Portland OR. to Brea CA. and then towing a 22' boat back with us.Definitely sucked the gas but plenty of power.His is the half ton 4 dr. and was very comfortable.But what the F..k is up with the roads down there? We got such severe bucking I thought we were going to lose the trailer!(We took I-5 to Imperial hwy.)Up in OR. we get a sign that says BUMP! I guess it would cost too much to put them every 50 feet!!!!

[Trash]

HP350SC,
Re-read the posts. The extra start-up or initial cost of the diesel was mentioned. Break even point can be attained. As I stated, the extra cost of the diesel was paid for in fuel savings at around 66,000 miles for my application. After that it's saving me money vs. the gasser.
I have yet to pay $75 for an oil change. I'm sure I could pay that much somewhere, but I don't. Filters cost more but they are also gigantic. I spend about the same amount of money on filter and oil for my gasser as I do for my diesel. Oil change interval is the same for both. The best part is not having to change spark plugs on the diesel :D

[Outnumbered]

Anyone looking for an update:
2,000 miles on the truck and milage is getting better like STV said it would. On our last trip to Vegas it got 16.9 mpg. That is cruising 80+. I noticed that the mpg on the computer was showing over 18 mpg when I slowed to 70-75. Its an easy 400+ miles on a tank with plenty of fuel to spare. Gotta love that kind of mileage with close to 500 ft/lbs or torque at your disposal. :D
Did I mention that I love this truck :confused:
OL
[ August 06, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Old Lavey ]

[Just Tool'n]

Be afraid of an Isuzu Diesel?
They make alot of diffrent diesels. All the way up to ones they put in giant ships.
They are the largest diesel mfg in Japan. & they do build quality diesel engines.
I think that GM owns 49 or 51% of them, & everyone I have talked too loves their duramax.
I just wish I could get the cummins with the allison in a chevy, now that would be an unstopable package too beat.

[Outnumbered]

Just Tool'n:
Be afraid of an Isuzu Diesel?
They make alot of diffrent diesels. All the way up to ones they put in giant ships.
They are the largest diesel mfg in Japan. & they do build quality diesel engines.
I think that GM owns 49 or 51% of them, & everyone I have talked too loves their duramax.
I just wish I could get the cummins with the allison in a chevy, now that would be an unstopable package too beat. I was basing my opinion on the cars and trucks I see here in the States. Everone I know that has had one has had problems. Maybe their commercial stuff is top notch, but is that the quality build you are getting in these USA pick-up trucks? I don't know but time will tell.
I have had 5 new chevy p/u trucks since 1992 and everyone of them has had some kind of minor to major problem within the first 36k miles. My Durango was my first Dodge and I leased it becuase I wasn't sure of the quality. Well I beat it pretty hard for 36k and it didn't miss a beat. That is the main reason I bought another Dodge. I hope it is a good truck like the Durango because I plan on keeping it for a while.
OL

[Phat_Kat]

Old Lavey:
Were gonna trade the 02 Durango in on a 03 Quad-Cab 4x4 Dodge 2500 SB. The Diesel is about $4,500 more than the Hemi. The Hemi has more power than I need, the diesel has way more than I need. We pull a 21' now and will likely get a 24' soon. I don't think we want to go any bigger on the boat size.
Here are my concerns:
1) Hemi gets worse milage, I'm guessing 12mpg (anybody have one?) Diesel gets about 15-20mpg from what I hear.
2)Hemi comes with the 5-spd auto which is the same tranny that is in my Durango 4.7. It works great but with over 100 more horsepower--how will it hold up?
3) Diesel costs $4,500 more eek!
4) Diesel stink, noise, and grime on the boat while towing.
5) The wife will be driving it a lot...she may not dig the diesel stink and noise.
Lets hear some opinions :D
Thanks!
OL I just got my HEMI on sunday and so far it's a great truck. It's got so much power that slamming the throttle is almost irresistable to even the most mild of drivers. I say get a HEMI, I haven't really had enough time to figure out gas milage and all that but so far it runs beutifully and rides like a luxury car. They're supposed to get the same milage as the 4.7 but I can't really say for sure.

[Outnumbered]

Already got the Diesel. I know they are both good in their own way. I think I would have been happy with either. But this truck will be a keeper, so I think the diesel was the better move for me. Thanks for your opinion.
OL

[roostwear]

Can't handle diesel fumes, even if the truck is only used for towing. We'll be getting the hemi quad cab in 2-3 weeks. I can't complain about my '01 with the 5.9, and have heard the hemi is even better.

[Outnumbered]

I too was concerned about the fumes before I bought this truck. We have all seen the old POS diesel chugging up the hill pouring black smoke out the back.
I think the fume thing is associated with the old school diesels. This thing does not smoke and the exhaust smells no worse than any gas truck I have ever had. The new technology has come a long way. My wife drives this thing more than I do and she loves it. Kid taxi and grocery getter. Not a single complaint from her about the exhaust.
OL

[STV_Keith]

Hehe, the new trucks aren't even in the same class. I, on the other hand, just got a '94 Dodge with the 12v. Doesn't smoke now, but will soon (that's what they do with 600rwhp)! :)

[Outnumbered]

Hey Keith,
How long should I wait to put a module on this thing? That cheap power upgrade is just too much to resist :D . Also, will the re-tune from the module extend the oil change interval. I was reading on the TDR boards that the Cali trucks foul the oil quick due to the way they are programed. Is that true? I know my oil is pretty black now. I actually wanted to change it sooner--2,000 miles already. I always try to change that break-in oil ASAP. I gotta make time to get it done. Damn those miles went by quick.
OL

[STV_Keith]

You can put the box on at ANY time. Our truck had one at 13 miles. :) We do our oil at 1000mi, then every 3k after that with Chevron Delo 400 15w40. Make sure - DO NOT run a Pennzoil filter. We use only the Fleetguard Strataport LF-16035 on our '03 truck.

[Dan C.]

This may be a dumb question, but how can you tell the difference between the regular Cummins and the HO by looking at them?
-Dan

[HammerDown]

Dan C.:
This may be a dumb question, but how can you tell the difference between the regular Cummins and the HO by looking at them?
-Dan Beats me...but I asked an owner of a HO Cummins about his fuel mileage...he wasent to happy about it. About 11 mpg if that!...but he did say it runs and pulls like a Raped Ape.
I'll keep my 7.3 until they straighten out the 6.0 issues. Then its another Ford for me.

[Outnumbered]

Hammer Down,
Sounds like he either has 4.10 gears and/or he drives it pretty hard because I am getting 16/18 mpg with my SO (3.73 auto) and the HOs are supposed to get even better mileage (assuming you are not doing burn-outs at every stop light). From what I have read, the more power these things put out the better the mileage gets.
Dan C,
I don't know if there is a way to tell. I just know yu can't buy an HO in Cali and its pretty hard to register one here too. F@ck Cali and all their rules. :mad:
OL

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
You can put the box on at ANY time. Our truck had one at 13 miles. :) We do our oil at 1000mi, then every 3k after that with Chevron Delo 400 15w40. Make sure - DO NOT run a Pennzoil filter. We use only the Fleetguard Strataport LF-16035 on our '03 truck. Thanks, we may be moving out to the Seven Hills area soon. I will probably wait until I get out their for the convenience. I just was curious about the break-in period and the oil getting black so fast.
OL

[Dan C.]

A little info on how to tell the difference between the HO and non-HO Cummins.
-Dan
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/yabbse/index.php?board=17;action=display;threadid=18207

[little rowe boat]

Go diesel either cummins or powerstroke. stay away from the duramax.I took part in a consumer survey and got to drive all 3 under identical conditions pulling 10,000 lb covered trailers up hills on the frwy each time on the identical route.The duramax was outperformed by the cummins and the powerstroke handsdown.

[STV_Keith]

To tell the difference, look at the engine itself. There is a black sticker/plate (called the CPL plate) mounted on the motor, to the drivers' side of the valve cover. It will say ISB 235/250/305 depending on what you have.
4.10's will usually suffer in MPG.

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
You can put the box on at ANY time. Our truck had one at 13 miles. :) We do our oil at 1000mi, then every 3k after that with Chevron Delo 400 15w40. Make sure - DO NOT run a Pennzoil filter. We use only the Fleetguard Strataport LF-16035 on our '03 truck. Keith, do you have a good source for bulk purchase for these filters. Say 5 or 10 at a time? I tried to find an on-line supplier but had no luck. I'm sure the local Diesel shop will charge retail plus for these.
Thanks,
OL

[STV_Keith]

E-mail me at work and remind me to look into it. We normally buy them in case lots...not sure what the price is. keith@dieseldynamics.com

[B-rad502]

If mpg is not a concern, and you want to save on the initial cost of the vehicle and get a gas motor, I would do the V10. I love mine, yeah it only gets around 10 mpg daily driving, 8-9 mpg towing 6000 lbs., 13-15 mpg not towing on the highway. I still love it and it will pull a house, has 455 lbs of torque. I would take the V10 over the hemi any day if I was buying a gas motor. :D
http://www.lasvegas***boats.com/iB_html/uploads/post-1-91624-Dscn1300.jpg

[jackpunx]

STV_Keith:
E-mail me at work and remind me to look into it. We normally buy them in case lots...not sure what the price is. keith@dieseldynamics.com Keith, or anyone with an opinion
I hate to ask this.. But ... with your experience.. What is the best Diesel truck right now?.. Pros and cons, Milage,power,longgevety,looks..
I have had either a GM or Chevy ... I’m really thinking of switching over to F-3504x4 dually 4 door. Its a great looking truck.. I wasn’t impressed with the sales guys at either Dodge ,Ford or GM.. I told them I was trying to collect info to compare all the trucks.. It didn’t seem like any of the 3 could give me good info.. But the Ford looks nice.. I have a couple of buddies that use them for work.. They love them.. But I would rather stick with the GM or Chev.. I currently have a Gmc 3500 4x4 long bed with lift,exhaust,intake,leather, .. the works .. 7.4 .. and I am lucky to get 8 mpg.. I asked them what they would give me in trade.. 11k.. Im almost feeling like a hostage to this truck.. I love it .. it has 66k miles .. Never given me any problems.. Sorry about the long question/statements..
Any thoughts? Im really liking the Ford .. I saw one lifted.. looked really good..
Thanks
[ September 19, 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: jackpunx ]

[JetBoatRich]

jackpunx
I picked this up a couple weeks ago:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/78MVC-144L-med.JPG
The truck is great, average 16 MPG right now with the 6.0. If you come out to the lake Sunday check it out. It is fully loaded :D

[jackpunx]

JetBoatRich:
jackpunx
I picked this up a couple weeks ago:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/78MVC-144L-med.JPG
The truck is great, average 16 MPG right now with the 6.0. If you come out to the lake Sunday check it out. It is fully loaded :D Nice Ride! .. I wont be able to make this weekend.. boat is still in the shop so Im going Karting.. But we'll be out next weekend... Are you going up to BV next week?

[STV_Keith]

Well, on the looks/styling department, that's all personal preference. If I was in the market for a new truck today, doing what I do and seeing what I see, I'd go to the Dodge dealer and make my purchase.
The Cummins will get better mileage, last longer and has more upgradeability than any of the other engines out there. The brakes on the new '03/'04 truck are the biggest out there too.

[jackpunx]

STV_Keith:
Well, on the looks/styling department, that's all personal preference. If I was in the market for a new truck today, doing what I do and seeing what I see, I'd go to the Dodge dealer and make my purchase.
The Cummins will get better mileage, last longer and has more upgradeability than any of the other engines out there. The brakes on the new '03/'04 truck are the biggest out there too. Thanks Keith
when you say upgradeable.. Do you mean like turbo/performance?.. The bottom line is.. I would rather have something that will get great mileage for city driving and a beast for towing.... I think that the Dodge is a little less expensive as well..
I will take a closer look at them.. I was not impressed with the sales guy I talked to ..

[jackpunx]

Also.. with Dodge.. what do you think about buying used?.. are there any changes to the new ones coming out that I should wait on?

[Outnumbered]

jackpunx:
STV_Keith:
E-mail me at work and remind me to look into it. We normally buy them in case lots...not sure what the price is. keith@dieseldynamics.com Keith, or anyone with an opinion
I hate to ask this.. But ... with your experience.. What is the best Diesel truck right now?.. Pros and cons, Milage,power,longgevety,looks..
I have had either a GM or Chevy ... I’m really thinking of switching over to F-3504x4 dually 4 door. Its a great looking truck.. I wasn’t impressed with the sales guys at either Dodge ,Ford or GM.. I told them I was trying to collect info to compare all the trucks.. It didn’t seem like any of the 3 could give me good info.. But the Ford looks nice.. I have a couple of buddies that use them for work.. They love them.. But I would rather stick with the GM or Chev.. I currently have a Gmc 3500 4x4 long bed with lift,exhaust,intake,leather, .. the works .. 7.4 .. and I am lucky to get 8 mpg.. I asked them what they would give me in trade.. 11k.. Im almost feeling like a hostage to this truck.. I love it .. it has 66k miles .. Never given me any problems.. Sorry about the long question/statements..
Any thoughts? Im really liking the Ford .. I saw one lifted.. looked really good..
Thanks Jackpunx, This is my first Diesel (2003 Dodge Cummins) and I and my wife love it. Since I got the hard toneau we have been getting 18-20 mpg on the fwy cruising 75. City driving it gets about 14-16. Towing our 21' it got about 13-14mpg on our last trip. Pulls the grades nice. Its a 4x4 auto too so a 4x2 or stick would likely do better. Keep in mind that the Cummins has a 5/100 engine warranty and Dodge gives a 7/70 powertrain. I don't think the others have as good of a warranty. Ours is loaded with leather, power pedals, Infinity sound, heated mirrors, etc. and it was about 5k cheaper than a GM duramax with similar options. Also the GM trucks are lowriders with independent suspension. You have to lift them to look good or run bigger tires. The Dodge sits way higher (hard to see in this picture but it does) and is much cheaper to lift if you choose to do so. Also, the axles are way tougher than the independent stuff on the GMs. Just my 0.02,
OL
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/2754MVC-003F.JPG

[jackpunx]

Thanks for the .02 Im trying to make sense out of a new purchase soon. My truck runs fine.. looks great.. has all the goodies.. but its a gas engine.. I’m lucky to get 8mpg..and the more miles I put on it .. the less it will be worth..
Thanks again
Mark

[BowTie Rick]

Hey OL,
If your reading the TDR boards, make sure you stay away from those AFE filters (site sponsor). They barely stop hot dog wrappers. eek! I have the low down on them and its not good. If you want flow and protection, nothing beats a K&N. Don't fall for AFE's sales pitches, they're basically outright lies. They have zero integrity and stop at nothing to try to get sales. Their pleat design is flawed (too round). You cannot have that much flat surface facing particulates with a surface loading filter. Their new diesel filters use synthetics which never come clean and flow 10% lower each cleaning. The 1000 CFM filter only flows 725 CFM after only 3 services.

[STV_Keith]

jackpunx:
Thanks Keith
when you say upgradeable.. Do you mean like turbo/performanceCorrect. The '03 Cummins can easily make 500rwhp/1000+ ft-lbs of torque and get 18-20 MPG doing it. At that level, expected lifespan is still well over 400k miles.

[STV_Keith]

The used Dodge's are good too...the farther you go back though, the less refined they are. I drive a '94 now, but would have liked a 98 with the newer dash/interior.
OL, we put 315/75/17s on my bosses '03 here at work and they work well.

[jackpunx]

STV_Keith:
jackpunx:
Thanks Keith
when you say upgradeable.. Do you mean like turbo/performanceCorrect. The '03 Cummins can easily make 500rwhp/1000+ ft-lbs of torque and get 18-20 MPG doing it. At that level, expected lifespan is still well over 400k miles. thats great info.. thanks.. What about the rest of the truck?
I see that you are an all around Dodge fan.. is that objective? or just personal pref

[Jrocket]

Keith,
How are you guys doing with the Ford 6.0? Im gonna order one in January,or as soon as the new 04 motor comes in the truck.

[Outnumbered]

BowTie Rick:
Hey OL,
If your reading the TDR boards, make sure you stay away from those AFE filters (site sponsor). They barely stop hot dog wrappers. eek! I have the low down on them and its not good. If you want flow and protection, nothing beats a K&N. Don't fall for AFE's sales pitches, they're basically outright lies. They have zero integrity and stop at nothing to try to get sales. Their pleat design is flawed (too round). You cannot have that much flat surface facing particulates with a surface loading filter. Their new diesel filters use synthetics which never come clean and flow 10% lower each cleaning. The 1000 CFM filter only flows 725 CFM after only 3 services. Thanks BTR. I'm not a member there I was just lurking before I bought my truck to check out the feedback on the new Dodges. Have not heard much negative at all.
Regarding air filters, mine is still stock. Cummins website says that K&N or any aftermarket filter is not recommended and may void the warranty :confused: (never heard this before on a gas motor). I run them in my jeep and have had them in a few other vehicles and have never had a problem.
Regarding lube filters, I took STVKeiths advise and just picked up a case of Fleetguard (Cummins) Stratopore filters. They are the upgraded version of the stock replacement. Theye were $12.98 ea in a 12 case here at the local Cummins dealer.
OL

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
The used Dodge's are good too...the farther you go back though, the less refined they are. I drive a '94 now, but would have liked a 98 with the newer dash/interior.
OL, we put 315/75/17s on my bosses '03 here at work and they work well. STV, you must have read my mind (or seen my wimpy 265's :D ), I was looking at 315s and had read on a few message boards that some people have rub and others don't. To me, the 2500 4x4s sit so high that there is plenty of room. My tires look way too small on this truck. What brand and what rim did he run? Did he have to trim the fenders?
Thanks,
OL

[STV_Keith]

jackpunx:
thats great info.. thanks.. What about the rest of the truck?
I see that you are an all around Dodge fan.. is that objective? or just personal pref More like I'm a Cummins fan. I think the '03 truck is the best Dodge has turned out yet. The 01.5's to 02 were one step down, then 01 back to 98 were another step back, then 97 back to 94. I have a '94 (co. truck) and it's ok...some issues with the suspension, etc. If I were buying a truck, I'd look for a '98 quad cab short box w/Cummins. For towing, buy a 5-spd. For a hot rod, buy the auto and plan to spend $5k upgrading.

[STV_Keith]

Jrocket:
Keith,
How are you guys doing with the Ford 6.0? Im gonna order one in January,or as soon as the new 04 motor comes in the truck. We have a box (50/75/100rwhp gain), cat-back exhaust, gauges and airbox kit for them already. Check out the website. Diesel Dynamics (http://www.dieseldynamics.com)

[STV_Keith]

Old Lavey:
Thanks BTR. I'm not a member there I was just lurking before I bought my truck to check out the feedback on the new Dodges. Have not heard much negative at all.
Regarding air filters, mine is still stock. Cummins website says that K&N or any aftermarket filter is not recommended and may void the warranty :confused: (never heard this before on a gas motor). I run them in my jeep and have had them in a few other vehicles and have never had a problem.We sell the AFE's here and they are as good as a K&N in filtering and flow. Most of the reason Cummins doesn't like K&N was the Dodge truck. The airbox has a big lid with only 4 hold-downs, so not so good on the clamping side of things. The K&N filters have a stiff durometer surround and don't seal all that great, so some air/dirt could go around if the installer didn't use the grease provided. The AFE filters use a softer durometer surround, so they seal better.

[STV_Keith]

Old Lavey:
STV, you must have read my mind (or seen my wimpy 265's :D ), I was looking at 315s and had read on a few message boards that some people have rub and others don't. To me, the 2500 4x4s sit so high that there is plenty of room. My tires look way too small on this truck. What brand and what rim did he run? Did he have to trim the fenders?Didn't touch the fenders. Installed BFG A/T 315/75/17's on the stock rims. No issues.

[BowTie Rick]

STV_Keith:
Old Lavey:
Thanks BTR. I'm not a member there I was just lurking before I bought my truck to check out the feedback on the new Dodges. Have not heard much negative at all.
Regarding air filters, mine is still stock. Cummins website says that K&N or any aftermarket filter is not recommended and may void the warranty :confused: (never heard this before on a gas motor). I run them in my jeep and have had them in a few other vehicles and have never had a problem.We sell the AFE's here and they are as good as a K&N in filtering and flow. Most of the reason Cummins doesn't like K&N was the Dodge truck. The airbox has a big lid with only 4 hold-downs, so not so good on the clamping side of things. The K&N filters have a stiff durometer surround and don't seal all that great, so some air/dirt could go around if the installer didn't use the grease provided. The AFE filters use a softer durometer surround, so they seal better. The AFEs do not have a one piece seal. They use a four pour process and glue the corners together. They can and WILL come apart down the road. That is a breach of seal if I ever heard one. We have spoken to Cummins and the actual issue they have is customer neglect. Letting tons of dirt build up can cause all the oil to be "wicked" off and a dry filter does not filter properly. Also, the sealing grease must be used and people may neglect to do that. We use it on this filter due to an un-true lid surface. The lid tends to distort as it ages and the grease maintains a barrier should that happen. Newer K&N's use a poron gasket (foam) that is replaceable instead of the grease when air box distortion is an issue. AFE says they design their filters better so they do not need gaskets or grease ever. How can you make a filter from urethane and have it flexible enough to to fill air box distortion gaps like the foam seals of a throw away filter? Interesting they are telling you their seal is softer than ours. I just talked to someone last week how got the line the AFE was harder and therefore better. I am telling you, these guys have no integrity and speak from both sides of their mouths. They cannot even get thier sales pitches straight. Lastly, I have independent lab tests showing they do not filter as well as K&N. A paper filter maintains a constant filtration level throughout its life. A K&N gets better as it gets dirty due to the surface loading and wicking off of the oil. An AFE gets worse because the pleat shape will not support much surface loading and they have a lower initial efficiency than K&N brand new. This is not meant as a flame. I just know the facts because that is what I do for a living. I can tell you absolute horror stories about Kool Blue and Green filters. If K&N was bad, they would not be coming up on their 40th year of doing business. I give AFE 1 - 2 more years before they fold.

[Outnumbered]

BTR, has K&N made any progress with Cummins regarding the warranty issues? I would trust K&N over another brand because of their track record and my personal experience with them. I would like to use a K&N in the truck when I put a power module in here soon. How about an aftermarket air box that does not have sealing issues?
STV, will an aftermarket air filter like K&N or AFE help a stock motor? Or should I wait until I get your power module to do the air filter?
Thanks,
OL

[BigBoyToys]

Old Lavey:
Were gonna trade the 02 Durango in on a 03 Quad-Cab 4x4 Dodge 2500 SB. The Diesel is about $4,500 more than the Hemi. The Hemi has more power than I need, the diesel has way more than I need. We pull a 21' now and will likely get a 24' soon. I don't think we want to go any bigger on the boat size.
Here are my concerns:
1) Hemi gets worse milage, I'm guessing 12mpg (anybody have one?) Diesel gets about 15-20mpg from what I hear.
2)Hemi comes with the 5-spd auto which is the same tranny that is in my Durango 4.7. It works great but with over 100 more horsepower--how will it hold up?
3) Diesel costs $4,500 more eek!
4) Diesel stink, noise, and grime on the boat while towing.
5) The wife will be driving it a lot...she may not dig the diesel stink and noise.
Lets hear some opinions :D
Thanks!
OL Get the Hemi, that way you can get one of those cool "Yeah, it's got a Hemi" stickers and you can tear up a drag car in the 1/4 mile (at least that's what the commercial shows) eek! :rolleyes: :D
Just Kidding. Really, the Diesel is the way to go. Depending on how many miles you drive, the difference in the MPG will save you the difference in the initial cost in no time. Diesel is currently $.50 cheaper per gallon than gas here in my area. As for the Mrs. driving it now and then and not liking the smoke and noise, buy her a Yugo and tell her that this is YOUR truck. eek! :D :D

[STV_Keith]

OL, on your truck, the airbox is the worst part, not necessarily the filter. On the '03 trucks, we try NOT to sell just a filter as it won't do much for the truck.
BTR, that's your field so I'll leave the specs to you. I can tell you from our testing, the AFE flows as well and seems to filter as well. We have not tried their new Pro Guard 7 filter yet. One thing AFE has K&N beat on HANDS DOWN is product development. AFE took 5 months longer than we did to produce an airbox for the 2003 Dodge Diesel trucks. K&N was even farther behind. The problem is the size of the co. in my opinion. They just don't respond quick enough to new products. AFE is better, but still not what we would like to see.
Just my .02

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
OL, on your truck, the airbox is the worst part, not necessarily the filter. On the '03 trucks, we try NOT to sell just a filter as it won't do much for the truck.
BTR, that's your field so I'll leave the specs to you. I can tell you from our testing, the AFE flows as well and seems to filter as well. We have not tried their new Pro Guard 7 filter yet. One thing AFE has K&N beat on HANDS DOWN is product development. AFE took 5 months longer than we did to produce an airbox for the 2003 Dodge Diesel trucks. K&N was even farther behind. The problem is the size of the co. in my opinion. They just don't respond quick enough to new products. AFE is better, but still not what we would like to see.
Just my .02 So I'm a little confused. You didn't really answer my question on the benefits of the filters on a stock vs BOMBED motor. Also, do K&N and AFE both offer aftermarket boxes since the stock set-up sucks? And do they run a cone instead of a flat filter?
:confused:
Thanks,
OL

[STV_Keith]

I know AFE has an airbox for the 03. I would guess K&N does too. We built our own when neither could build one as quick as we could, and we needed one to make our turbo kit work.
For a stock truck, a drop in would be fine...but if you're going to upgrade the power, go straight to an air box.

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
I know AFE has an airbox for the 03. I would guess K&N does too. We built our own when neither could build one as quick as we could, and we needed one to make our turbo kit work.
For a stock truck, a drop in would be fine...but if you're going to upgrade the power, go straight to an air box. I didn't see it on your website, how much? Does it run a cone?
OL

[Outnumbered]

Old Lavey:
STV_Keith:
I know AFE has an airbox for the 03. I would guess K&N does too. We built our own when neither could build one as quick as we could, and we needed one to make our turbo kit work.
For a stock truck, a drop in would be fine...but if you're going to upgrade the power, go straight to an air box. I didn't see it on your website, how much? Does it run a cone?
OL http://www.dieseldynamics.com/popup/images/DA03.jpg
Found it, sorry. Will it void the warranty? Will it work with a K&N cone?
Hey BTR, what does K&N offer for the 03 Cummins? I would rather go with K&N like I said before.
OL
Thanks
[ September 24, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Old Lavey ]

[STV_Keith]

It's our own airbox with an AFE filter we spec'd out. I have not heard of anyone having any warranty problems with any of the airboxes for the '03 as of yet.
[ September 24, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: STV_Keith ]

[buck183]

jackpunx:
STV_Keith:
E-mail me at work and remind me to look into it. We normally buy them in case lots...not sure what the price is. keith@dieseldynamics.com Keith, or anyone with an opinion
I hate to ask this.. But ... with your experience.. What is the best Diesel truck right now?.. Pros and cons, Milage,power,longgevety,looks..
I have had either a GM or Chevy ... I’m really thinking of switching over to F-3504x4 dually 4 door. Its a great looking truck.. I wasn’t impressed with the sales guys at either Dodge ,Ford or GM.. I told them I was trying to collect info to compare all the trucks.. It didn’t seem like any of the 3 could give me good info.. But the Ford looks nice.. I have a couple of buddies that use them for work.. They love them.. But I would rather stick with the GM or Chev.. I currently have a Gmc 3500 4x4 long bed with lift,exhaust,intake,leather, .. the works .. 7.4 .. and I am lucky to get 8 mpg.. I asked them what they would give me in trade.. 11k.. Im almost feeling like a hostage to this truck.. I love it .. it has 66k miles .. Never given me any problems.. Sorry about the long question/statements..
Any thoughts? Im really liking the Ford .. I saw one lifted.. looked really good..
Thanks Having read a few shoot outs between the big three in the 3/4 package with diesels one thing has been made very obvious.....if your buying a truck to do serious towing go with either Chevy or Ford. The Dodge tranny doesn't have the braking feature like the Ford and Chevy. Having used both of these trucks to haul large loads I can tell you it makes a BIG difference. If you don't know any different if probably won't matter. But once you've driven one with the tranny brake feature while towing you won't go back.
I like both the Ford and Chevy myself. Just bought the Ford. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy the GM either. The Ford has a red line that is 1000 rpm higher than the Chevy and Dodge too. But, the Ford makes power a little later in the RPM range than the other two also. If you read some of the shootouts you will see this mentioned A LOT. The Ford was preferred by most that drove it over the other two.
Dodge has one thing and one thing only going for them. The Cummins engine. When they start putting a truck around it that's worth something they'll have something going for them.
Think resale also. Which truck can you buy the cheapest? The Dodge. Buy cheap and it will be worth less when you go to trade. Someone once told me if the competition feels like their product is worth less than yours, then let them sell it for less.
Buck
[ September 24, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: buck183 ]

[johnboy]

Old Lavey:
I too was concerned about the fumes before I bought this truck. We have all seen the old POS diesel chugging up the hill pouring black smoke out the back
IOL When a diesel is smoking, black dark tree huggin greeny hating smoke that just means you are starting to make power! Nothing like sitting next to a MIATA and filling the cab with BLACK GOLD as some little fast and F&*KED Bastrd wandering what your are pushing....Ahh I love the smell of diesel smoke and tend to make as much as I can! As a side note the first tree huggin sob that puts a sticker on either one if my vehicles will remove it with a cold piece of round Titanium pushed into the base of thier neck!
IF THEY DO NOT LIKE MY DIESELS, THEN GET THE F&^K OFF THE ROAD!
Put your f-ing GEO in the garage!
[ September 24, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: johnboy ]

[johnboy]

Incase you did not understand get the Diesel...

[STV_Keith]

buck183:
Having read a few shoot outs between the big three in the 3/4 package with diesels one thing has been made very obvious.....if your buying a truck to do serious towing go with either Chevy or Ford. The Dodge tranny doesn't have the braking feature like the Ford and Chevy. Having used both of these trucks to haul large loads I can tell you it makes a BIG difference. If you don't know any different if probably won't matter. But once you've driven one with the tranny brake feature while towing you won't go back.
Buck Actually Buck, the 48RE trans in the '03 Dodges DOES have TCC lockup during decel in 4th, 3rd and 2nd gear. The "shootouts" must have been for the older trucks.

[jackpunx]

buck183:
jackpunx:
STV_Keith:
E-mail me at work and remind me to look into it. We normally buy them in case lots...not sure what the price is. keith@dieseldynamics.com Keith, or anyone with an opinion
I hate to ask this.. But ... with your experience.. What is the best Diesel truck right now?.. Pros and cons, Milage,power,longgevety,looks..
I have had either a GM or Chevy ... I’m really thinking of switching over to F-3504x4 dually 4 door. Its a great looking truck.. I wasn’t impressed with the sales guys at either Dodge ,Ford or GM.. I told them I was trying to collect info to compare all the trucks.. It didn’t seem like any of the 3 could give me good info.. But the Ford looks nice.. I have a couple of buddies that use them for work.. They love them.. But I would rather stick with the GM or Chev.. I currently have a Gmc 3500 4x4 long bed with lift,exhaust,intake,leather, .. the works .. 7.4 .. and I am lucky to get 8 mpg.. I asked them what they would give me in trade.. 11k.. Im almost feeling like a hostage to this truck.. I love it .. it has 66k miles .. Never given me any problems.. Sorry about the long question/statements..
Any thoughts? Im really liking the Ford .. I saw one lifted.. looked really good..
Thanks Having read a few shoot outs between the big three in the 3/4 package with diesels one thing has been made very obvious.....if your buying a truck to do serious towing go with either Chevy or Ford. The Dodge tranny doesn't have the braking feature like the Ford and Chevy. Having used both of these trucks to haul large loads I can tell you it makes a BIG difference. If you don't know any different if probably won't matter. But once you've driven one with the tranny brake feature while towing you won't go back.
I like both the Ford and Chevy myself. Just bought the Ford. But I wouldn't hesitate to buy the GM either. The Ford has a red line that is 1000 rpm higher than the Chevy and Dodge too. But, the Ford makes power a little later in the RPM range than the other two also. If you read some of the shootouts you will see this mentioned A LOT. The Ford was preferred by most that drove it over the other two.
Dodge has one thing and one thing only going for them. The Cummins engine. When they start putting a truck around it that's worth something they'll have something going for them.
Think resale also. Which truck can you buy the cheapest? The Dodge. Buy cheap and it will be worth less when you go to trade. Someone once told me if the competition feels like their product is worth less than yours, then let them sell it for less.
Buck thanks for the post.. After we get through Xmas... I will start looking more seriously.... I just hate putting another mile on my truck.. when I know what I really want.. I love my truck and its set up perfect.. I would love to do the same thing to a new one (deisel) It would cost me some bucks that I dont really have right now.... If the cost of gas continues to go up.. I might bite the bullet..

[BowTie Rick]

Old Lavey:
BTR, has K&N made any progress with Cummins regarding the warranty issues? I would trust K&N over another brand because of their track record and my personal experience with them. I would like to use a K&N in the truck when I put a power module in here soon. How about an aftermarket air box that does not have sealing issues?
STV, will an aftermarket air filter like K&N or AFE help a stock motor? Or should I wait until I get your power module to do the air filter?
Thanks,
OL K&N has a complete intake system for the 03 Dodge diesel. http://knfilters.com/images/aircharger/63-1060.jpg Send me a PM and I'll get you a Hot Boat deal. wink As for product development, look at the K&N vs. the AFE. Ours includes a roto-molded plastic intake tube that replaces everything from the throttle body out. AFE is only a cone filter and heat shield. What do you think would take longer to develop? What do you think makes more performance? Replacing the stock intake tube is a huge gain. Stock is full of resonators to quiet the turbo noises. Problem is, they create turbulence and slow velocity causing a lag in throttle response. Allowing the air to take a straight path increases throttle response. Also, we will dyno test several different designs until the best is determined. AFE did not even have a dyno last I knew. As for a drop-in replacement filter, ours is still at an outside, independent facility undergoing flow, filtration and retention testing. All AFE does is make one and release it without following up on how it will actually perform.
Think about what K&N does for the industry. We sponsor 2 NHRA events plus contingency at all, 2 APBA race boats (Daytona Sun Times and Laveycraft), we are OE on the Merc HP500 and GM HP3, IHBA contingency, Grand Am, all IRL cars use K&N, 9 F1 teams use K&N, and the list goes on.

[STV_Keith]

BowTie Rick:
Ours includes a roto-molded plastic intake tube that replaces everything from the throttle body out. AFE is only a cone filter and heat shield. What do you think would take longer to develop? What do you think makes more performance? Replacing the stock intake tube is a huge gain.Hey Rick, not to be a pain here, but are we even talking about the same truck? The Cummins (or any current light duty turbo diesel truck made at this time) doesn't have a throttle body at all. The inlet goes straight on to the turbo.
Now, we don't sell the AFE kit either...we make our own. However, I'll be the first to admit that an airbox makes NO HP difference on the dyno below about 500hp. EGT drop - yes, spoolup - yes, HP - NO.
[ September 25, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: STV_Keith ]

[BowTie Rick]

My bad, I just am used to saying the phrase "throttle body out". :o The picture and vehicle I was talking about is the 03 Dodge diesel and it wound be from "turbo out" in this instance. 30 lashings with a wet noodle for me. :p

[40oz'nHO's]

diesel

[buck183]

STV_Keith:
buck183:
Having read a few shoot outs between the big three in the 3/4 package with diesels one thing has been made very obvious.....if your buying a truck to do serious towing go with either Chevy or Ford. The Dodge tranny doesn't have the braking feature like the Ford and Chevy. Having used both of these trucks to haul large loads I can tell you it makes a BIG difference. If you don't know any different if probably won't matter. But once you've driven one with the tranny brake feature while towing you won't go back.
Buck Actually Buck, the 48RE trans in the '03 Dodges DOES have TCC lockup during decel in 4th, 3rd and 2nd gear. The "shootouts" must have been for the older trucks. The Shootout that I used most for reference in my post used all 03 model trucks. All truck were Crew Cab, 3/4 ton, Short Bed, 4x4 loaded trucks.
I drive all three makes on a daily basis. I have yet to see a Dodge with the braking feature. Am I missing something? Is there two transmissions? Did the testers, who do this for a living, miss something? I hear my customers who own the Dodge mention this frequently too. They wish they had that feature.
The Shootout made very clear, on several occasions, that this was a handicap for this vehicle compared to the other two.
I work on new trucks for a living. I am either under, on, or in these trucks everyday. It's my job to know what these manufacturers are changing on a yearly basis. I have to keep up with my market.
Buck

[STV_Keith]

buck183:
I drive all three makes on a daily basis. I have yet to see a Dodge with the braking feature. Am I missing something? Is there two transmissions? Did the testers, who do this for a living, miss something?
Buck Maybe so. The HO autos are the new 48RE. The 47RE was offered in the SO and CA models until March or so. Since then, everything has got the 48RE, which is the trans with the TCC lockup during decel feature. Any mag article out over a month or so ago likely tested the 47RE as the 48RE was not widely available back then.

[hot_diggity_dog]

Well, on the looks/styling department, that's all personal preference. If I was in the market for a new truck today, doing what I do and seeing what I see, I'd go to the Dodge dealer and make my purchase.
More like I'm a Cummins fan. I think the '03 truck is the best Dodge has turned out yet. The 01.5's to 02 were one step down, then 01 back to 98 were another step back, then 97 back to 94. I have a '94 (co. truck) and it's ok...some issues with the suspension, etc. If I were buying a truck, I'd look for a '98 quad cab short box w/Cummins. For towing, buy a 5-spd. For a hot rod, buy the auto and plan to spend $5k upgrading.
I Love my 98. It has all of the upgrades you can put on it with over 200K miles. 400+HP
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/013_13-200679.JPG
Diesel Trucks (http://forums.***boat.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000034)
HDD :cool:

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
buck183:
I drive all three makes on a daily basis. I have yet to see a Dodge with the braking feature. Am I missing something? Is there two transmissions? Did the testers, who do this for a living, miss something?
Buck Maybe so. The HO autos are the new 48RE. The 47RE was offered in the SO and CA models until March or so. Since then, everything has got the 48RE, which is the trans with the TCC lockup during decel feature. Any mag article out over a month or so ago likely tested the 47RE as the 48RE was not widely available back then. STV is right. All new 2500+ Cummins/Dodge trucks come with the new 48 and its a strong package. It shifts very firm and it has good braking, although I do not tow anything over 5-6k lbs. But we do live at 5,100' elevation and drive it "down the hill" a few times a week to about 1,500' elevation on a 15-20 mile trip. That is a pretty good grade and I have to say the truck handles awesome. Brakes are unbelievable for a truck this size. The suspension and transmission both feel tight.
After owning several new GM trucks and driving a few Fords I would have to say that I am sold on Dodge/Cummins. The features, the value, and the looks just blow the others away.
JMO,
OL

[STV_Keith]

hot_diggity_dog:
I Love my 98. It has all of the upgrades you can put on it with over 200K miles. 400+HP
HDD :cool: ALL of the upgrades? I think not. ALL of the upgrades on your 98 would put you over 800hp!

[hot_diggity_dog]

ALL of the upgrades? I think not. ALL of the upgrades on your 98 would put you over 800hp!
I should have used most!! wink
But I have all I care to put on it at the moment. :rolleyes: :D
HDD :cool:

[Outnumbered]

jackpunx:
STV_Keith:
jackpunx:
Thanks Keith
when you say upgradeable.. Do you mean like turbo/performanceCorrect. The '03 Cummins can easily make 500rwhp/1000+ ft-lbs of torque and get 18-20 MPG doing it. At that level, expected lifespan is still well over 400k miles. thats great info.. thanks.. What about the rest of the truck?
I see that you are an all around Dodge fan.. is that objective? or just personal pref This guy knows his stuff:
www.dieseldynamics.com (http://www.dieseldynamics.com)
Check out the videos!
http://www.dieseldynamics.com/videos/1333-shane.mpg
OL
[ September 26, 2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Old Lavey ]

[Dr. Eagle]

I have a Chevy Suburban with the 8.1L gas engine. I personally hate dealing with diesels. The fuel is harder to find, it stinks to high heaven if you get it on your hands. I say stick with the gas engine. Just make sure the tow rating is high enough for a larger boat if you plan to get one.
I had to buy the new suburban after forking out a hell of a lot of money for my boat. The old suburban I had could not pull my 30' eliminator.

[STV_Keith]

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll wave as I go by. :)

[Dr. Eagle]

Ok if you say so, except I pass most traffic going over the pass to Lake Tahoe with my 9500 pound 30 foot eliminator boat.
The diesel/gas decision is a personal preference. I dislike diesel for a lot of reasons, and other people love their diesels for the obvious positives. There is no arguing with the torque that the engines produce. And the fuel efficiency is better.
Personally, I hate the smell of the fuel, which won't even come off of your hands with soap, the noise, the black soot all over the boat, limited number of places to buy the fuel, etc. But as far as going up that grade up Highway 50 up to Tahoe, I have a feeling you will be behind me...
[ September 26, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
Ok if you say so, except I pass most traffic going over the pass to Lake Tahoe with my 9500 pound 30 foot eliminator boat.
The diesel/gas decision is a personal preference. I dislike diesel for a lot of reasons, and other people love their diesels for the obvious positives. There is no arguing with the torque that the engines produce. And the fuel efficiency is better.
Personally, I hate the smell of the fuel, which won't even come off of your hands with soap, the noise, the black soot all over the boat, limited number of places to buy the fuel, etc. But as far as going up that grade up Highway 50 up to Tahoe, I have a feeling you will be behind me... I think you better watch the video of his truck doing 103+ in the 1/4 mile before you make that claim :D
I have bought the Dodge Cummins Diesel since I first started this thread and I have no regrets. The truck does not smell, does not leave black soot on the boat, and the fuel does stink but so does gas if you get some on your hands. The power is no comparison, trust me. The diesel out pulls the gasser at twice the mpg, period.
I've owned lots of gas trucks and this was the first diesel. I was a skeptic, but not any more. My wife even loves it and she's pretty spoiled wink .
I appreciate your opinion, but the new diesels have come a long way in refinement. They are not the old stinky dogs of 10+ years ago.
OL

[Dr. Eagle]

You are right, the new diesels are not the stinky dogs they used to be. The new electronic controls and fuel injection systems coupled with the turbos have helped to clean them up.
Like I said it is a matter of personal preference. My friends that have diesels love them and can't understand why I (and a substantial number of my other friends) don't. Just a matter of personal preference. I respect the fact that you like them so much.
103 in the quarter, that is impressive! I guess as long as I start in front I can probably keep you from passing!
I will say that the chevy 496 is pretty unique in its torque output vs. most other gas engine. It is only about 100 ft lbs less than the duramax diesel. I always say it will pass everything but a gas station.
most of the smaller displacement gas engines tow nothing like the new chevy big block. The 350 in my old suburban had a hard time getting out of its own way while towing a 3500 pound boat.
[ September 26, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

[Dr. Eagle]

Just so you understand my dislike of diesel fuel, the main reason I hate the smell of Diesel oil goes back to my early days following high school.
I was a carpenter apprentice (later journeyman, later foreman and later supt.) and I worked on large commercial projects. I mostly worked on large concrete forming projects.
We oiled the form plywood with something called "form oil" which was really diesel fuel with some heavier oil dissolved in it. I used to come home covered in that stuff, day after day. I got to loath the smell of diesel from that and I have never gotten past it.
As far as tow vehicles, you cannot beat the pull of the new generation of diesel engines. I was almost ready to break down and buy a GM or Chevy crew cab 2500 with Duramax, but I just couldn't get over that memory of being bathed in that form oil (diesel) smell way back when.

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
Just so you understand my dislike of diesel fuel, the main reason I hate the smell of Diesel oil goes back to my early days following high school.
I was a carpenter apprentice (later journeyman, later foreman and later supt.) and I worked on large commercial projects. I mostly worked on large concrete forming projects.
We oiled the form plywood with something called "form oil" which was really diesel fuel with some heavier oil dissolved in it. I used to come home covered in that stuff, day after day. I got to loath the smell of diesel from that and I have never gotten past it.
As far as tow vehicles, you cannot beat the pull of the new generation of diesel engines. I was almost ready to break down and buy a GM or Chevy crew cab 2500 with Duramax, but I just couldn't get over that memory of being bathed in that form oil (diesel) smell way back when. Ah, the truth comes out :D . I knew there was more to this storry :D .
But seriously, I would probably hate the smell too if I had a job like that. That would suck. Not to mention the health hazards of having that stuff on your skin all the time.
OL

[Dr. Eagle]

BTW What year Lavey do you have?

[STV_Keith]

Hehe, Hey OL, 103 was without the nitrous. 111mph with the squeeze...11.96 @ 111. Anyway, with 1560ft-lbs of torque, it would pull like a freight train.
There is no comparison here with a stock truck. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about stock trucks. My '94 is the weakest thing I drive around the shop and it's only 900ft-lbs. Plenty to go fast up the hills.

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
BTW What year Lavey do you have? It's an '87. The photo is from a few years ago. I have since put in a new interior. FYI, you can click on the member rating link to see a member's profile. In his profile you can see his boat description and photo if he took the time to set one up.
OL

[Outnumbered]

STV_Keith:
Hehe, Hey OL, 103 was without the nitrous. 111mph with the squeeze...11.96 @ 111. Anyway, with 1560ft-lbs of torque, it would pull like a freight train.
There is no comparison here with a stock truck. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about stock trucks. My '94 is the weakest thing I drive around the shop and it's only 900ft-lbs. Plenty to go fast up the hills. Looks like a lot of fun. I would like to see the faces of some of these muscle car guys when you are blowing by them in a stock-looking diesel P/U eek!
OL

[Dr. Eagle]

That's right I forgot about that feature.
The reason I ask is I am looking at an older lavey that is in Yucaipa (I think)somewhere around San Berdo. I am going down this next week for my dad's birthday.
The hull looks the same, graphics are different.
He had done the upholstery and regelcoated the deck a few years ago. The digital pics look real nice, but I have found that they can be pretty deceiving.
I just sold the Eliminator because the wife hated it. It killed me, but it was doing nobody any good sitting in its storage in my back yard depreciating and not getting used. The only boat she ever liked was my old 21 foot open bow daycruiser.
So I am trying to find another one, but I will not buy new again and take that huge depreciation hit. That killed me.
Have you ever replaced the little windshields on yours? That was one thing that looked questionable on the one I am looking at. Other than maybe the trailer paint.
I see from your profile that you have one of those OMC King Cobras. I had the next one smaller on my 21' daycruiser (350 HO engine). That drive was very reliable. The Lavey I am looking at is old enough it has a mercruiser.
[ September 28, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
That's right I forgot about that feature.
The reason I ask is I am looking at an older lavey that is in Yucaipa (I think)somewhere around San Berdo. I am going down this next week for my dad's birthday.
The hull looks the same, graphics are different.
He had done the upholstery and regelcoated the deck a few years ago. The digital pics look real nice, but I have found that they can be pretty deceiving.
I just sold the Eliminator because the wife hated it. It killed me, but it was doing nobody any good sitting in its storage in my back yard depreciating and not getting used. The only boat she ever liked was my old 21 foot open bow daycruiser.
So I am trying to find another one, but I will not buy new again and take that huge depreciation hit. That killed me.
Have you ever replaced the little windshields on yours? That was one thing that looked questionable on the one I am looking at. Other than maybe the trailer paint.
I see from your profile that you have one of those OMC King Cobras. I had the next one smaller on my 21' daycruiser (350 HO engine). That drive was very reliable. The Lavey I am looking at is old enough it has a mercruiser. Yes I have replaced the windshields. The OEM manufacturer is stilll in business. Check out this thread for the info:
Windshield Thread (http://forums.***boat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006832)
As far as the drives, OMC have been around since the early days too. The Cobra drives were a hot trend in the 80s and were good drives in general. They had a problem with the shifters that was eventually figured out and recalled. But they never could shake the stigma. I think it put them out of business. My drive has been great and I am very happy.
Let me know if you have any questions on the boat. I have been thru this thing from front to back and have learned quite a bit.
OL

[Dr. Eagle]

Thanks for the windshield thread. The boat I am looking at is a 1980 but the hull doesn't look much different from yours. I had a friend that had this same boat in a 1985 edition it had that crappy silver OMC "better idea" drive that they only used for a couple of years before they came out with the Cobra. I am glad I did not ever have that drive, he had a lot of problems with it, it didn't trim the boat worth beans, and if that huge rubber gasket between the drive and transom went, the boat sunk.
The boat I am looking at, its windshields rake forward rather than raking back like yours. It really makes the boat look old, old school. My friend's 1985 had the same kind of windshields.
Older Lavey (http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/6/55505536.htm)
The guy that owns this is a fireman, and it looks like it is in awesome shape. I think he is asking a bit much for this year, but I may make him an offer. But I feel naked without a boat, I have had one for the last 20 years. I hate it! Hopefully the wife will come back out to the water now that the boat won't scare her.
Yeah, there were a few recalls on the OMC Cobra drive, one for the shift cable, which is why all of the new ones are red. And one for the gear sets. They replaced the straight cut gears with a beveled set.
Unfortunately the gear set recall was a "silent" recall and OMC would not replace the gears after a certain time. My old 21' Daycruiser with the omc went for between 700 and 800 hours before the gear sets and dog clutch croaked. So I got to pay for it.
But I sold that boat to my neighbor and it is still going strong with about 1100 hours on it.
[ September 29, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
Thanks for the windshield thread. The boat I am looking at is a 1980 but the hull doesn't look much different from yours. I had a friend that had this same boat in a 1985 edition it had that crappy silver OMC "better idea" drive that they only used for a couple of years before they came out with the Cobra. I am glad I did not ever have that drive, he had a lot of problems with it, it didn't trim the boat worth beans, and if that huge rubber gasket between the drive and transom went, the boat sunk.
The boat I am looking at, its windshields rake forward rather than raking back like yours. It really makes the boat look old, old school. My friend's 1985 had the same kind of windshields.
Older Lavey (http://adcache.boattraderonline.com/6/3/6/55505536.htm)
The guy that owns this is a fireman, and it looks like it is in awesome shape. I think he is asking a bit much for this year, but I may make him an offer. But I feel naked without a boat, I have had one for the last 20 years. I hate it! Hopefully the wife will come back out to the water now that the boat won't scare her.
Yeah, there were a few recalls on the OMC Cobra drive, one for the shift cable, which is why all of the new ones are red. And one for the gear sets. They replaced the straight cut gears with a beveled set.
Unfortunately the gear set recall was a "silent" recall and OMC would not replace the gears after a certain time. My old 21' Daycruiser with the omc went for between 700 and 800 hours before the gear sets and dog clutch croaked. So I got to pay for it.
But I sold that boat to my neighbor and it is still going strong with about 1100 hours on it. Yep, that is the scoop on the OMCs. You know all about their issues.
Regarding the boat, the hull looks identical. I think the windshields may interchange???
Are you sure its an '80? Check the last two numbers in the VIN. I have seen some mid 80s Laveys with a slightly different hull design. They must have made more than one style.
I would say $11k is not too high unless it needs lots of work. I would not let mine go for less than $15k because I could not replace it for less. Plus its a big-block. Not many of those around with the old Laveys. Most are 350s.
Finally, mine is now super clean and there just are not many clean old boats out there.
OL

[Dr. Eagle]

Good point on the price. It does look really clean, in the pictures, but I have been soooooo fooled by those digital photos before. The dash is kind of a mess from what I can tell, but I will be able to tell better in person. Don't know about the guages and wiring either.
If it is a 1980 (I wondered the same thing because the hull was so similar to my friends 1985, well identical actually) my concern is the outdrive. It is a gen 1 merc alpha. I can drop a crate small block in and bump up the HP but I will have to do something with the drive. Most likely go to a bravo, but now it is starting to get spendy.
Hull looks good and he did update the graphics on the boat. If it is clean I am going to make him an offer, even if there are some not so minor projects to do to get it up to my par. I have high standards as you do...it will look like new in the next year.
I just hope my bubble won't be burst as it was with the last Eliminator I looked at. It looked good in the pics, then when I got there it was absolutely trashed. We'll see.

[Dr. Eagle]

BTW, your boat is beautiful from what I can see in that little picture... Looks like you have really restored it.

[Outnumbered]

Dr. Eagle:
BTW, your boat is beautiful from what I can see in that little picture... Looks like you have really restored it. Thanks. It actually looks better now with an all new interior in the new bolster style (no tuck and roll). The trailer needs re-done. I think I'm going to have Extreme re-do it this winter.
OL