Should fire victims get building permits for free?

[Mandelon]

We have lost something like 2000 homes down here. Obviously most will be rebuilt. The City has stated that they will waive plan check, school and permit fees for the fire victims.
On one hand:
The City needs the money. Especially if they have all these new plans to review and homes to inspect. If those who receive the benefits don't pay, everyone else will have to. Why should these victims get special treatment? Does the City give free permits to every victim of a house fire? Should they? Why not go back and refund the fees of other fire victims then? Why change the rules? The fees can help offset some of the increased costs. Insurance will pay for it anyway.
But.................
On the other hand:
The fire victims need help. They have lost everything. Some have nothing more than the clothes they were wearing. Some have lost family members. If the city had enough firemen this would not have happened. Give them a break.
What do you think?

[Keithb87]

I think that they should charge for permits. The Insurance will pay for them, and the Cities / Counties need the money.
Charge 'em

[GlastronGuy]

Originally posted by Keithb87
I think that they should charge for permits. The Insurance will pay for them, and the Cities / Counties need the money.
Charge 'em

[HighRoller]

That's right,blame the fire department.It's all their fault.It sickens me to see all these people jump on the bandwagon of blame when it hits the fan,but let me ask you this.WHERE were you when your city decided to cut fire department budgets to pay welfare benefits?Unlike grocery workers,firemen can't strike and the cities stonewall them everytime by saying"we don't have the money".Did the cities/counties listen to the fire marshal when he told them building tinder box houses one on top of another in heavily brush laden and mountainous areas was a recipe for disaster?NO.Do the residents listen when the fire inspectors tell them to clear brush for at least 100ft around their house?NO. But these same people call angrily when the flames are coming wanting to know when the firemen are gonna come cut a fireline around them.I've heard all the sories from a 36 year vet of the FD(my dad)as well as his friends and my friends too.You can't plan to do anything with a 60mph brush fire but get out of the way!!

[phebus]

Originally posted by HighRoller
That's right,blame the fire department.It's all their fault.It sickens me to see all these people jump on the bandwagon of blame when it hits the fan,but let me ask you this.Do the residents listen when the fire inspectors tell them to clear brush for at least 100ft around their house?NO. But these same people call angrily when the flames are coming wanting to know when the firemen are gonna come cut a fireline around them.
I hear you on this one. I am one of the firemen people are now pointing fingers at. I tell you what, we were busting our ass out there, and laying it on the line. The people that did their work by clearing brush and creating fuel mods, for the most part still have homes to go home to. When you build homes in the urban interface, you have to do your part to protect your structure and make it defendable!!
Sorry, hit a nerve. :mad:

[MagicMtnDan]

Sorry but no can do Shamu and here's why:
1. Need buildings/homes to be built to code
2. Permits aren't an obstacle to rebuilding (money, good/trustworthy contractors and their availability are)
3. The cities need the money
Permits are a cost that either the insurance will help pay or it's a tax deduction.
In my opinion, the key is for the cities to expedite the process and make things move more quickly than normal so folks aren't delayed any more than they absolutely must in trying to get their lives back in order.

[mike37]

the home owners should have kept the brush cut back better
they know they live in a fire airea

[Rexone]

anyone baggin on the firefighters needs a swift wake up call kick in the teeth. I mean that sincerely. I was one of the lucky ones, had good clearance and plenty of firefighters when the fire came through. Those guys bust their ass tryin to save houses. The only thing you can do in a wind driven fire storm is try to squirt some water on the homes if ya can even get there and get outta the way other than that.
As far as the permit fees they should pay em as long as the insurance covers it (that's what insurance is for). In cases where insurance didn't cover em for some reason then I'd waive em.

[CEO]

Permits shouldn't be free of charge, with that extra permit money, they should hire extra building inspectors, plan checkers and try for once in their lives to be more helpful. Expidite plans and have more inspectors in the field to make sure no ****ing ass contractors are trying to pull a fast one on anybody
my .02
CEO

[Johnwithjm]

Well since most people paid the fees once I think they should be free.

[haulina29]

In most cities and counties in California the building permit fee would be applicable in a burn situation . School fees and developmenatal fees are almost always waived because they have been paid once and require no additional work by the city IE plans check building inspections etc. As far as Firefighters blowing there own horns they are just doing there jobs and are well compensated .

[NorCal Gameshow]

they need plan checks for the fire victims protection...i bet there are caravans of "building professionals" headed to so-cal to cash in as we type...as far as the fees, it should be done on a case by case basis ...

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Keithb87
I think that they should charge for permits. The Insurance will pay for them, and the Cities / Counties need the money.
Charge 'em
The permit fees are designed to pay for the inspection costs. The school and other fees are intended to be paid for NEW development. Since this is not a new house per se but a replacement for an existing structure (school and other fees already having been paid ONCE) it makes sense that these fees not be charged. Otherwise the city will be double dipping off of the same property.
I say pay the inspection fees and waive all the rest, this will allow the city to outsource some of the plan check and inspection so that they can get rebuilt relatively quickly.
My .02

[little rowe boat]

Originally posted by haulina29
In most cities and counties in California the building permit fee would be applicable in a burn situation . School fees and developmenatal fees are almost always waived because they have been paid once and require no additional work by the city IE plans check building inspections etc. As far as Firefighters blowing there own horns they are just doing there jobs and are well compensated . I am curious as to which firefighters are blowing their own horns. Most firefighters don't do the job for publicity or to blow their own horn. We do it for the sense of community pride and the feeling that we can make a difference on each and every emergency response. As for compensation,yes I do make a decent living.I will never be rich monetarily, but every time I have a positive influence or make a difference in someones life, I am richer for that experience in my life. Yes every firefighter out there on the fire line was doing his or her job and unfortunately Steve Rucker the fire engineer from the Novato fire dept was just doing his job and lost his life,just doing his job. It just makes me wonder what well compensated is?I'm sorry the last sentence in the above quote just struck me wrong.

[Rexone]

I think firefighters are compensated well for the most part and much of the time their job and schedule are not that demanding.
BUT.. and it's a big but, in demanding times like the past couple weeks, they go way above and beyond their compensation level IMO risking their lives, equipment, working multi days with no sleep...shit I could go on and on. Therefore I think anyone that wants to bash em or get down on em for making decent money or brush it off as hey they're compensated for what they do, its not a big deal, should first walk in their shoes in a crisis period. Probably would put a whole new perspective level in place as far as what adequate compensation consists of. It takes a special type of person to be "willing" to put their ass on the line for their job knowing they're not gonna get paid any more than they would if they stepped back and let it burn.
Few of us are asked to put our asses on the line at any given time in our jobs, whether it be selling boat parts, building houses, scanning bananas, building websites, selling cars, whatever... but many make similar money to these heros whos job might demand they come in harms way at any moment. Just something to think about.

[Kindsvater Flat]

I make 200 bucks a month being a volunteer fire chief. Possibly retiring after the way tonights meeting went.

[haulina29]

I would have to say that the firefighters have done a fantastic job and thats what it is a job they are not heros they are just doing the job they were hired to do , Anybody who blames the fds for any of the fire situations is lost . These fires have been going on forever in the so cal area and all firefighters no the risks when they sign up . Firedept jobs are probably the most wanted job in so cal . Because of the high level , both physical and mental you get top notch people in these positions and that is why FDs kick butt . I was at the local tire dealer last week and the hook and ladder was in getting some tire tubes and four young guys came in to pick it up , they were loading gear in so I asked if they were going to so cal and they responed no , I said I bet you are glad you dont have to go and there response was if you dont want to fight fires dont sign up for the job . I thought to myself I quess he told me . As far as the Navato firefighter goes I would agree he paid the ultimate price as a Firefighter he was a local guy and the local communities have rallyed to show support for him and his family. and I realize all the support in the world cant make up for his loss of life . I am fortunate enough to live in a city with top notch fire and police we as residents have decided thats where we want our tax dollars to go and it shows . We have a well equiped fire dept and a proactive police force and the community support is incredible. Both of these depts kick ass but still they are just doing there job. :rolleyes:

[phebus]

Here is something that was sent to me:
"I Wish You Could Know"
(Wish I could claim to have written this.
Unfortunately, I didn't.....and have no idea
who did).
I wish you could know what it is like to search a
burning bedroom for trapped children at 3 AM, flames
rolling above your head, your palms and knees
burning as you crawl, the floor sagging under your
weight as the kitchen below you burns.
I wish you could comprehend a wife's horror at 6 in
the morning as I check her husband of 40 years for a
pulse and find none. I start CPR anyway, hoping to
bring him back, knowing intuitively it is too late.
But wanting his wife and family to know everything
possible was done to try to save his life.
I wish you knew the unique smell of burning
insulation, the taste of soot-filled mucus, the
feeling of intense heat through your turnout gear,
the sound of flames crackling, the eeriness of being
able to see absolutely nothing in dense
smoke-sensations that I've become too familiar with.
I wish you could read my mind as I respond to a
building fire "Is this false alarm or a working
fire? How is the building constructed? What hazards
await me? Is anyone trapped?" or to call, "What is
wrong with the patient? Is it minor or
life-threatening? Is the caller really in distress
or is he waiting for us with a 2x4 or a gun?"
I wish you could be in the emergency room as a
doctor pronounces dead the beautiful five-year old
girl that I have been trying to save during the past
25 minutes. Who will never go on her first date or
say the words, "I love you Mommy" again.
I wish you could know the frustration I feel in the
cab of the engine, squad, or my personal vehicle,the driver with his foot pressing down hard on the
pedal, my arm tugging again and again at the air
horn chain, as you fail to yield the right-of-way at
an intersection or in traffic.
When you need us however, your first comment upon
our arrival will be, "It took you forever to get
here!"
I wish you could know my thoughts as I help
extricate a girl of teenage years from the remains
of her automobile. "What if this was my daughter,
sister, my girlfriend or a friend? What were her
parents reaction going to be when they opened the
door to find a police officer with hat in hand?"
I wish you could know how it feels to walk in the
back door and greet my parents and family, not
having the heart to tell them that I nearly did not
come back from the last call.
I wish you could know how it feels dispatching
officers, firefighters and EMT's out and when we
call for them and our heart drops because no one
answers back or to here a bone chilling 911 call of
a child or wife needing assistance.
I wish you could feel the hurt as people verbally,
and sometimes physically, abuse us or belittle what
I do, or as they express their attitudes of "It will
never happen to me.
I wish you could realize the physical, emotional and
mental drain or missed meals, lost sleep and forgone
social activities, in addition to all the tragedy my
eyes have seen.
I wish you could know the brotherhood and
self-satisfaction of helping save a life or
preserving someone's property, or being able to be
there in time of crisis, or creating order from
total chaos.
I wish you could understand what it feels like to
have a little boy tugging at your arm and asking,"Is Mommy okay?" Not even being able to look in his
eyes without tears from your own and not knowing
what to say.
Or to have to hold back a long time friend who
watches his buddy having CPR done on him as they
take him away in the Medic Unit. You know all along
he did not have his seat belt on. A sensation that I
have become too familiar with.
Unless you have lived with this kind of life, you
will never truly understand or appreciate who I am,
we are, or what our job really means to us...I wish
you could though.
* author unknown *

[Essex502]

As cold as it sounds - no, I don't think the permits should be free. These home owners chose the risk to live in the area where they did and the risk caught up to them. You pays your money and you takes your chance. While I feel very sorry for them and their losses it is just like those folks who live in Malibu and have problems when the storms come in and wash away the front of their beachfront homes. Or those who like in the hills and when the hills slide during an El Nino rain watch their homes end up in the canyon below. I feel badly for all of these people but they chose their risk.
On another note...the firefighters did a MAGNIFICENT job. While it may be true that they are not working all the time they are on call and have to go into harm's way in a moments notice. I can't say enough good things about these guys...way underpaid.

[spectratoad]

I didn't read all the post just got to the one where someone decided to blame the fireman. Just another case of its always someone elses fault. I am sure the city has a fire plan and no matter how well the plan is put together a fire this large is going to do whatever it wants.
Now back to our originally scheduled program. :D
The owners should have to pay the permit fees. It is all part of owning a home. The insurance will pay for it, the city needs the revenue. If you don't have plan check or permits then who is going to ensure that proper construction is taking place?

[Terrible Buddhist]

here is an idea...you can have a permit...BUT
if you live in Mississippi, you can't build your damn house on a flood plane
if you live in California, you can't build in a fire area/ on a fault
if you live in the south, you can't build your house on the ocean
If you live in the midwest, you can't park your trailer in hurricane alley
etc, etc...

[Picklefork]

My prediction is that once the wacko environmentalist gets involved, some of these burned out people won't be able to get permits at any cost. The environmentalist already controls what brush can or cannot be cleared, they have a huge responcibility for these firestorms.

[eliminatedsprinter]

It would seem that the yes they should get them for free people are leading the poll, however the no folks are doing most of the posting.
One related side issue is the high prices that are charged for the permits and the scams many inspectors are running by requiring many unnecesary repeat inspections to gouge homeowners. From what I've heard my friends and family members have gone through, when building or adding on to their homes, the permit system is full of abuse.
I remember reading, a couple of years ago, that the cost of the permits to build the avg home in So Cal was approx $35.000. That is a lot for government to add to the cost of a home in an already over inflated housing market.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Rexone
I think firefighters are compensated well for the most part and much of the time their job and schedule are not that demanding.
I parsed the rest of Mikes comments out so that I could agree with them. :confused:
Fire Fighters are well paid and have schedules most people would die for... and ought to be well paid and have lots of time off. Fire fighting is tough business. When the fire fighters are on shift, calls come in at all hours of the day/night, they are dispatched to dangerous situations at all hours, then when disaster strikes they are the front line. I do not complain about their pay situation or their schedule...it goes with the job, and rightly so.
:D

[eliminatedsprinter]

Originally posted by Picklefork
My prediction is that once the wacko environmentalist gets involved, some of these burned out people won't be able to get permits at any cost. The environmentalist already controls what brush can or cannot be cleared, they have a huge responcibility for these firestorms.
I've got to agree here. These groups have been taken over by nuts and our weak minded officials are often influenced by them.
My father and I are both former Sierra Club members and we are both appalled at what this once benificial organization has become.:(

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Essex502
As cold as it sounds - no, I don't think the permits should be free. These home owners chose the risk to live in the area where they did and the risk caught up to them. You pays your money and you takes your chance. .
While certainly true in many of the cases, not all the houses that burned were really in rural settings. Many were in subdivisions that just happened to back up to a preserve. I looked and almost bought one of those homes in Scripps Ranch 4 years ago. Glad I didn't.
Fees for the building permit most likely will be charged, but the other fees amount to a double dip by the municipality or county if they are charged...:D

[Essex502]

I wasn't implying "rural" just too close to nature. Take the Oakland Hills fire of a few years back (10-12??) - same thing - people want to live in an exclusive area such as the foothills or next to nature and POOF! Same in Malibu, Ventura, etc... with beachfront property. Also, the Malibu fires some years back. Burned all the way to the ocean. Laguna Beach a couple of years ago...didn't half of the hillsides slide into the canyon below? These places I don't consider rural. Lake Arrowhead...rural. Crestline...rural. Big Bear Lake...rural. Still, each of us chooses our risk and when the dice roll the wrong way we can't depend on the rest of society to bail us out. That's what insurance is for. Low cost govenment loans - okay too. Grants - I don't agree. My opinion only.

[ROZ]

Originally posted by haulina29
In most cities and counties in California the building permit fee would be applicable in a burn situation . School fees and developmenatal fees are almost always waived because they have been paid once and require no additional work by the city
This is the way it should be....Permit and plan check charge, waive the remainder...
For those who haven't filed for permits before, it can be axpensive...I never thought the permit for my pool would be 600.00. :mad: ....Oh well, gotta pay to play.... :(

[Dr. Eagle]

E502 gotcha, understand what you mean. Problem is that many if not most urban/suburban areas have greenbelts, drainage facilities, wetland preserves that will burn like a frickin truckload of gas in the right conditions.
Yep, Oakland is a good example, but it was highly urbanized. I'd have never thought it would have burned like it did before it happened. The dynamics of wind driven fires are unbelievable, almost indescribable. I saw the column of smoke all the way from Reno as I was landing at the airport there.
Few years ago we had a grass fire behind the homes immediatly to our south. It was amazing to watch, CDF bombers dropping on the houses and in the field back there. This was not wild lands just undeveloped property at the time, in fact owned by the community college district. Fortunately the winds were not as strong as they were in the latest fires or there could have been dire results, many of the houses in my subdivision (not mine) have shake shingle roof material.
I was wetting the eaves down and the rest of the yard and fences anyway. Scary stuff.
I still think the owners (insurance companies) have to pay for the inspection costs, but the rest of the fees should not apply.:)