Hey Froggy...an explanation and an apology

[old rigger]

After thinking about what you said about the way I think of the word custom, I realized, after re-reading yours and some of the others posts, that you're absolutley right. The word 'custom' has become more of a pasturized word taking on no more meaning that kleenex.
You're were also right when you said the way I liked to build boats is very slow, but to be honest, that was a bage of honor for us that learned to do it that way. I was taught to take as much pride in the effort of building the boat as the end result itself, no matter how long it took. To me, that is custom.
I don't think custom is offering a mind boggling list of options to choose from for a boat by the manufacturer, but rather the way they are installed. I hate options on a boat to the point of almost getting into arguments with customers on where to mount something as simple as an hour meter. I would never drill a hole in a dash to mount such a gauge, rather, I'd try to hide it under the hatch where it doesn't clutter things up. To this day I've never installed a bimini top on any of my personal boats because I don't like the way the hardware looks wqhen mounted. (this is something that my wife tells be WILL change on our next boat)
Something as simple as how we use to have the pin striper stop buy and paint the CF numbers on every boat, and a name if the owner wanted one, is custom to me. But I don't think that sticker and decals that do the same job are. I know that the sticker installer or whatever his title is, takes as much pride in his job as a pinstriper would, and to many that is custom. But to me it's not, it's just another example of losing something when it comes to the way I learned to build a boat. I don't know what you'd call it, a personal touch, or maybe a better word, 'handcrafted'.
To be perfectly honest, I'd never make it as a builder in today's market. I'm completley out of step with what the buying public wants in a boat. You, it seems, have your finger on their pluse. I'd starve to death if I tried to sell my simplistic and narrow minded veiw of the way boats should be built and the way they should look. I think most new boats today are pretty ugly and look like big, white, oblong grapes, but they're selling like mad so obvioulsy, I AM out of step.
I don't know why I gave you such a hard time with the way you want to build your boat, other than when you described your pre-manufactured, assembling at warp speed, way of buiding custom boats, it raised a red flag and my nostrils started to flare because that's not howI thought the way a custom boat should be done. Obviously others don't have a problem with a boat being done like that and being called custom, so who am I to judge.
When I got out of the boat biz, running and screaming, almost 10 years ago it was because, first of all, it's wasn't fun anymore. And two, it wasn't fun anymore because I didn't like the way the boats were starting to look with, mainly, their options. Dealing with the current crop of new owners at the time didn't help things either. I'm not shopping for a new boat and I (duh) don't build them anymore either so I realized last night that I really don't have the right to coment on them anymore. And there's nothing more boring than hearing someone go on about the way it use to be done.
Sorry for rattlin' your cage so much.

[MRS FLYIN VEE]

well old rigger.. i like your style not many men come out with an appology like this to admit that they feel they are wrong.. but if you feel you are doing things right for your self then you are not wrong you just have different views on it.. thats all.. you are both right in my eyes and it takes a real man to do what you just did and i applode you for that.. ;) :D

[miller19j]

Old Rigger I commend you on stepping up to the plate and apologizing!
But I have to disagree with you on one point. I think that there is still a huge following for the old school type of boats and craftsmanship. I personally would like to own an old school 21’ Schiada to me that’s the ultimate boat. We all respect the fine craftsmanship of the good old school riggers like yourself. Just some can't afford to pay the price it would cost today.
I think that the dynamic of “custom” boat buyers is very diverse compared to how it was 20 years ago. So now the market has opened up to different types of “custom” boats. I also believe that it is a bigger market than ever before. That is why you are seeing so much diversity.
Anyway thumbs up for the apology that was pretty big of you!

[Dribble]

Originally posted by old rigger
After thinking about what you said about the way I think of the word custom, I realized, after re-reading yours and some of the others posts, that you're absolutley right. The word 'custom' has become more of a pasturized word taking on no more meaning that kleenex.
Sorry for rattlin' your cage so much.
I really don't have the right to coment on them anymore. And there's nothing more boring than hearing someone go on about the way it use to be done
You have the same right to comment as anyone else. There (in my opinion) is a certain amount of magic in old world knowledge. Especially if it applies to new world concepts. A custom boat, to me is a work of art. A floating canvas that an artist has put his mark on. A custom boat mold is no different then the block of marble that a sculptor starts with. The art is in there. The artist brings it out. This concept is timeless. The guy who rigged my boats used to rig for Howard Brown in the sixties. I appreciate and respect his depth of experience. As I do yours. Todays custom boats are no more than elevated and modernized versions of yesterdays custom mohogany boats. Some do it better than others. Most do it pretty well these days.
I say, keep throwing in your .02

[Maxwell]

Just reading old rigger's comments got my nostrils flaring also. I've been in and around the boat building process for the better part of 30 years. I have also had the pleasure of meeting wes in person and seeing his last boat, the Ultra. It was truely a custom piece of work, beautiful in every custom detail.
I don't see old rigger's apology meaning much, it is simply another attempt by him to puff up his out dated, vicoden induced, self glorifing opinion of himself. His additude should not be condoned by the public, he is a bitter old school asshole!
I would like to commend what Wes is doing and I think his company will be wildly successful.
Best of luck to you Wes.
Shame on you old rigger.

[MRS FLYIN VEE]

pretty harsh for a first post don't you think..:rolleyes: but welcome aboard :D and hold on your in for a ride.. :D ;)

[Kilrtoy]

Remind me never to make a public apology around here, damn cut a guy down. what do you want his frist born to belive he is serious.

[MRS FLYIN VEE]

well i think it takes a bigger man to make an apology like old rigger did and it takes a boy to come on talking shit.. the thing is this new timer doesn't even know this man(old rigger) and i am just sittin here waiting for his bashing.. :D

[Kilrtoy]

Well Im bashing you , where the hell are my pics.....
OLD RIGGER, you did what must people today would never due, I think that is very respectable what you did

[Maxwell]

But again, rather than commend old rigger for his self proclaimed apology, re-read it. He uses it once again to take pop shots at an industry that he says has gone to hell.
He does not understand what modern companies are doing yet he feels the need to critisize them and justify the way he used to do things. BTW, does anyone here run a boat he rigged?
With his injuries and on full disablity, I find it hard to beleive he even rigged his own boat.
Again, sorry if that seems harsh to some but someone who steps up to talk smack about what people are doing now and basing that on a comparison of what he only says he's done in the past, well they are kind of deserving of some harsh reality checks IMO.
Max

[REGISTERED USER]

Hey Maxwell, what was your previous username again???

[1stepcloser]

:rolleyes:

[Picklefork]

Whoa, Maxwell!! You just made up my mind, no apology from me.
However, I do plan to go sit in the hayloft for twenty minutes, without my spurs, sorta punish myself for stating my opinion. I only have, what, 40, posts? That evidently disqualifies my opinion.
Old Rigger, I admire you, for the apology and for your past contibutions to the boat industry. Thank you.
I can see my picklefork from the loft. Once in awhile I take it to an old genlemen for a little work. He's worth the price of addmission, just to hear all the stories about the "old days". Other people call my boat " Custom", I call it " Vintage."

[Jrocket]

You may have felt like you owe and apology,but in my opinion you shouldnt have to.

[Froggystyle]

I, for the first time in the couple years I have been on the forums am at a loss for words.
Last night, as I was leaving for dinner I was actually contemplating how hard it would be to alter the name of the company to Trident Performance Boats. Seriously.
You certainly didn't need to appologize. I understand what I am getting into when I lay my dick out on the block and show my enthusiasm (and with it my relative youth) for my project. There is always going to be detractors, and there is always going to be naysayers. They probably weren't interested in buying a boat from me anyway, so there is little to worry about from a business perspective.
As you know, before the Ultra I had was a blown 19' Daytona that I hand rigged stem to stern. I also think it was a pretty nice piece of work. I had to do a lot of machining, and a lot of buying, but it taught me that there is a bunch of different ways to build a boat by hand, and I didn't like most of them. I ended up purchasing specialized billet, having it all anodized to match the original stuff together, and rigging from there. Each bolt head got polished, each bolt got cut off for no protrusion. What a pain in the ass. I have decided now that the best way to do that, is to buy polished bolts, and buy them the right length!
The best analogy you made was the CF numbers. Painting requires a ton of craftsmanship and knowledge. They took pride in a job that was both time consuming and permanent.
If you were to ask the best way to put on a registration number though, and took away the process itself from the equation, and left only your design parameters, you would be left with :
1)Durable
2)Able to be permanent, but removeable in case of transfer
3)Bold colors
4)Smooth, and not detract from the look of the boat
5)Adjustable size
6)Easy to apply by novice
7)Repairable
The simple answer to that is vinyl. Everybody didn't switch to it just because it is easier, we switched to it because it is a lot better. I have not bought used boats before because "Blue Bayou" was painted across the transom.
The only thing I don't like about the way I am building this boat is the lack of craftsmen working for the company. I have outsourced to the best craftsmen, but have none of my own. The craftsmen designed the processes though, under my guidance, and have left the actual work to installers, who will have far less headaches to deal with. We will not need to invent where to put gauges, and as you said, we will not be arguing with them as to where the hour meter goes. It goes under the hatch. There is a place for it and everything.
I don't feel you were dropping bombs on me in this post. To be honest, I respect your opinion greatly, and one of the reasons I was trying to convince you so hard was because I really wanted your approval. I think that the way I am going to build this boat, while possibly abhorant to you, is going to be the best way to build the boat. I would like you to take a look at my finished product in January and tell me what you think, tell me where you feel that we may have fell short of the old school charm, or missed out on craftsmanship. I would also like you to tell me if you have never seen a boat built this well!
Thanks for the appology. I don't think you should feel like you have to appologize for your opinion, but it means a lot to me. I don't think I have done quite enough bad things around here to warrant the other bashing in the last couple of days, but such is life... at least your criticism was bordering on constructive... :D
We are building two molds.... and another one after that ;)
Have a great weekend,
Wes

[victorfb]

wow this is a long thread. it took me a while to read and try to understand it all. what i came up with is that one person wants to build "custom" boats by mass producing, pre fabricating a nicely desighned boat. sounds reasonable. but it also seems it would only be "custom" to that one or should i say "similair styled" interested buyers. im just trying to imagine myself going in to that shop that builds these nice custom boats, and after the salesman tells me all the options and i go through and pick all that i like, but then come up with a few of my own ideas or needs. examples:
i cant see very well and have found that those new digital read out square guages are much easier to see, so i will need those installed instead of the round ones you offer.
i am 7 foot tall and have long legs and need the seats to be set back further and built a little wider.
my wife is disabled and we need a place to put her wheelchair somewere so she can get out and get to the resteraunt we like to go to up river.
i can go on and on with em, and i havnt even started chaging the engine or drive, color schemes, ect, ect, ect. i can allready hear them telling me, we can do it, but it will take a few weeks longer and cost a more money. no problem. its a "custom boat" i understand. that is custom rigging and i would expect it to take longer. now i kind of understand the misunderstanding of the term custom thats going on here. i know nothing about the boat building buisnes, but if i may,id like to use what i do know a little about, and that uses the same term "custom" is the home building buisnes. "spec homes" vs "custom homes" a desighner has drawn out a very nice set of plans for 5 differant custom homes for a track. yes they use the term custom. but the builder is going to basically assemble them in the same manner on every one of them. changing colors and such, but basically the same for each. NOT CUSTOM,---- SPEC.----. are they nice homes? yea for entry level. but i cannot install hand crafted cabinets, custom inlayed hardwood floors, or even change the type of materials being used without taking the time and money to do so. i just order 3000 windows and have them delivered and installed. and hope that the window manufactuere didnt screw up the dimentions, because the framer had allready made the opening for them. if so, can i just cut out some of the framing to make the windows fit? no, we have laws against that. it will take away from the structural abilities of the framing. see were im going here? yes, i can build quite a few SPEC homes in the time it would take to build one CUSTOM home. and it would cost me about the same to do so. but i would make more money building the spec homes. which home is better built? the custom home by far. now back to the boat building issue, i cant believe that you can have the quality control over ANYTHING that is pre fabbed. if the interior manufacturer got a deal on foam, or vinyl that will look the same but wont last nearly as long, he WILL use it. 2 years from now you go out and get the interior redone by a CUSTOM interior shop, or go back to the original manufacturer and get another that will last another 2 years. but when you bring your boat in and he asks you, "how the heck did the interior get so thrashed in just 2 years? didnt the boat builder know this crap only last this long?" what do you tell them? but its a custom boat? the boat builder didnt know the foam or vinyl was changed from the first 5 sets he put in. it looked the same, fit the same. gotta be the same right?
all in all, id say custom takes time and you cannot build custom boats the same fashion as mass produced boats. its just impossible to get the same quality control. wether its the material used, or the installation. which i believe the installation of anything is key on a boat. i can definatly see old riggers point were he would not work for a boat builder in that fashion, as i would never work for a spec home builder and then try and go to my customers that wanted to build a custom home and have them look at the spec homes i built for refferance. if i wanted to continue building CUSTOM homes, id NEVER start a spec home buisnes.
this kind of hard to explain without useing real or known names for examples isnt it?:D but lets try this. the mona lisa has been copied many many times, but which one would you rather own? the true strokes of its original artist, or a mass produced copy? id take the artist version any day.
old rigger. id be proud to have a boat that you rigged. Pride goes a long way in my book. and pride definatly shows in any outcomings of anything created.
havent we learned anything from our chinese made copies of our custom made products?
:p

[1stepcloser]

I think you meant to post this in a different thread (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35349) ....
:rolleyes:

[victorfb]

you may be right about that. but it seems to me this the latest spin off from the original thread. am i wrong?

[1stepcloser]

I saw it as one persons apology to another for going a little overboard, and maybe trying to keep a little peace in the neighborhood.
:)

[MagicMtnDan]

Originally posted by Maxwell
But again, rather than commend old rigger for his self proclaimed apology, re-read it. He uses it once again to take pop shots at an industry that he says has gone to hell.
He does not understand what modern companies are doing yet he feels the need to critisize them and justify the way he used to do things. BTW, does anyone here run a boat he rigged?
With his injuries and on full disablity, I find it hard to beleive he even rigged his own boat.
Again, sorry if that seems harsh to some but someone who steps up to talk smack about what people are doing now and basing that on a comparison of what he only says he's done in the past, well they are kind of deserving of some harsh reality checks IMO.
Max
How does your OPINION differ from Old Rigger's OPINION or anyone else's? Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. He expressed his, you expressed yours and you trashed him for apologizing.
Helluva way to make friends and influence people around here especially when you're under 10 posts. And beating a guy when he's apologizing shows no class in my opinion (there's that word again). But Karma is very quick around here so I'm sure you'll get yours soon.

[old rigger]

Maxwell,
Hey man, what shops have you been working in for the better part of 30 years? Surely our paths have crossed if you're out here on the west coast.
What I said to froggy was what I felt I had to say to him, whether you see it meaning much or not, I could give a ****.
You might want to have your helper, or whoever is reading these posts to you, read them more s-l-o-w-l-y so you can get what's actually being said and not what you think's being said. I never said the industury has gone to hell, I said I didn't like the way it was heading and got out of it. It wasn't fun to me anymore. Don't put words in my mouth.
I understand perfectly well what the companies are doing, and I'd kill to be able to work for a few of them. Schiada, Hallett, DCB to name a just few, are doing work that's far more superior to anything I ever did. I wouldn't mind getting a shot to be part of that, who wouldn't?
You obviously read, or attempted to read, the other post where I was bashing froggy, because you read where I hurt my back. With your helper, or, if you need to use your finger to read, (once it's outta your ass), go back and read it again. I'll wait while you do, but I don't have all night, I gotta cold miller and a few vicodens waiting for me..................
You back? You read it? Then you'll see I was hurt after I got out of the boat biz.
Bout the only thing you did get right ( I don't believe for a minute that you've EVER worked in a boat shop) is that I didn't rig my current boat. I had a 21 that I wanted to build, but I was just kidding myself that I could do that again. Sold it to someone on the boards who could do justice to the thing.
Hey! I must have bought it while I was in one of my vicoden induced stupers! You know the ones I have when I'm trying to puff up my out dated, vicoden induced, self glorifing opinion of myself. I have lots of those you know, and a shrine in the garage dedicated to all the boats I built.
Hurry back with that list of shops, I won't be worth a shit once the meds kick in, and I wanna have a good laugh before I go to sleep.

[REGISTERED USER]

Props to OR & Froggy for handling this shit like men.
Too bad the children can't handle the peace and love goin' 'round. And I'm still not buyin' the "been a lurker for a while" new poster bullshit either. Sound a lot like someone who posted in the other thread yesterday who claimed to have been involved with the industry.
Funny how those posts are all deleted today. http://www.growthspurts.com/drivee/images/896820128872.gif

[victorfb]

i know i didnt mention it before, but now that its been brought up again id like to get a little understanding on the disability thing.
how is that old rigger would be less able to do quality work, just because he is not as mobile as before? he wouldnt need to run the 100 yard dash in less than 5 seconds or anything would he? why would that even be a factor here? just the mention of it shows me that whoemever said it, or even thought it, has got to be one sorry son o bitch. i am a paraplegic, and as i do find it more difficult to do certian tasks, i still do them, just in a differant and sometimes better ways. i am in the process of restoring my little rogers, and if i believed in what this/these people are saying, then i better stop now. i have no buisness touching a boat cause i wont be able to do it right. Cmon now, that is rediculous. ive built buggies, engines, R&R ed a couple engines in my truck and cars, even build homes. do i need to show you a picture of me climbing through some trusses on a second story roof while framing everything up? yes i am disabled, but id still bet i can out drive a hole lot of them in the sand dunes in my little buggy. and no there are no hand controls, i addapted my driving to the car, not the other way around. ability is in the way you use it. and i still am able.
ok, yea, i took it to heart on that one. but it was a stupid thing to say. disabled or not, id still love to have a boat rigged by old rigger. would it be the nicest? maybe not, but its rigged by a man who cares. that means something to me. does it you?

[rvrtoy]

10 bucks says that Maxwell is never heard from again:eek: :D :eek: :D
Any takers:rolleyes: :p

[flat broke]

Originally posted by Maxwell
Just reading old rigger's comments got my nostrils flaring also. I've been in and around the boat building process for the better part of 30 years. I have also had the pleasure of meeting wes in person and seeing his last boat, the Ultra. It was truely a custom piece of work, beautiful in every custom detail.
I don't see old rigger's apology meaning much, it is simply another attempt by him to puff up his out dated, vicoden induced, self glorifing opinion of himself. His additude should not be condoned by the public, he is a bitter old school asshole!
I would like to commend what Wes is doing and I think his company will be wildly successful.
Best of luck to you Wes.
Shame on you old rigger.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maxwell
But again, rather than commend old rigger for his self proclaimed apology, re-read it. He uses it once again to take pop shots at an industry that he says has gone to hell.
He does not understand what modern companies are doing yet he feels the need to critisize them and justify the way he used to do things. BTW, does anyone here run a boat he rigged?
With his injuries and on full disablity, I find it hard to beleive he even rigged his own boat.
Again, sorry if that seems harsh to some but someone who steps up to talk smack about what people are doing now and basing that on a comparison of what he only says he's done in the past, well they are kind of deserving of some harsh reality checks IMO.
Max
[QUOTE]
Maxwell,
Here's a little reality check for you. Ordinarily I'm known for concise diatribes in response to crap like this, but honestly I think my time would be better spent whacking off than wasting vocabulary on a numb nuts, dumb ****, piece of shit like yourself. If you're trolling, congratulations, you caught a big one. Otherwise do us all a favor, and skulk quitely over to the corner and go **** yourself.
The only thing wrong with this thread is that Old Rigger shouldn't have apologized in the first place. He is entitled to his opinion just as much as you are entitled to come in here and run your smack. I'll go along with the common concensus and give Rich props for being big enough to apologize... I know I wouldn't have.
Now as far as your half assed asasination attempt on his character by making light of his disability and doubting his past accomplishments, I'll just concede to the fact that your own actions are far more degrading to your image than anything I could say or do.
Have a nice evening,
Chris

[BiggusJimbus]

The best thing to do when creating any new technology or product is to have the skeptics in the room along with the apostles.
If you can't stand up to the questions and scrutiny of those folks, you aren't ready to take your product to the world. Even then, after you think you've thought of everything and put your product in the hands of consumers, something will come along that you never considered. Usually about 2 weeks after it gets into the world.
This is a pretty brave place to test the ability to weather the storm of doubt. Having a new idea that gets hammered and survives is a pretty good feeling.
I will always have skeptics working on any project team. As long as they don't see their job function as a roadblock, their presence is invaluable. Somebody to help keep the momentum of enthusiasm from overtaking reality.
It's pretty remarkable how easy it is for that to happen.

[roostwear]

It's hard to believe, but this has taken me 20 minutes to write. After deleting a whole page, it comes down to this for me. I have a right to enjoy my boat and the boats that are part of my lifestyle. I can call them whatever I want, because there is no wrong or definitive answer. This whole "custom" controversy should be hidden away to die the same death the "what is a hot boat" thread did. No apologies needed...... it's a matter of personal preference.
I hate the boards after summer. Looks like cabin fever is setting in early this year..........

[REGISTERED USER]

Originally posted by rvrtoy
10 bucks says that Maxwell is never heard from again:eek: :D :eek: :D
Any takers:rolleyes: :p
He'll be back sooner or later, takin' cheap shots under another name.
Take it to the bank.......

[Kilrtoy]

Ill take that bet

[Jbb]

Tell us how you really feel Dave!
RD -------------->...Musta Had some wolf cookies for breakfast!!!..:D

[Seadog]

We have two respected experts in the custom boat field that have voiced their opinions and have shown their respect for each other. What OR apoligized for, was any misunderstanding that might have indicated a lack of respect for Froggy's opinion. Friends are free to disagree without criticism, and troublemakers criticize without looking at both sides.