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Boozer
11-25-2003, 10:52 PM
I take my first flying lesson on Saturday.
If I like it as much as I think I'm going too then I am going to purchase a plane. So far I have been advised to get a Cessna 150 as my starter plane and go from there. A friend of mine wants to do a partnership on a Cessna 172 RG.
Not really to sure what to do. I just know that the 150 will cost less to purchase by myself then a partnership on a 172 RG. I just dont know how long I could be happy with only havin seating for 2. The partnership deal would be nice when it came time for maintenance. And there seems to be a LOT of that involved when owning a plane.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

LASERRAY
11-25-2003, 10:54 PM
Looking for advice? Try HOTPLANE.COM:D :D :D

Kilrtoy
11-25-2003, 10:55 PM
Boozer glad to see you back, BUT YOU ARE CRAZY. YOU MUST HAVE A DEATH WISH. Good luck

78Eliminator
11-25-2003, 11:09 PM
I used to take flying lessons and was just about to take my test but ran out of money. What do you want to know? PM me....
J

rrrr
11-26-2003, 12:07 AM
Boozer, a 150 is a claimer. The 152 is the same aircraft with a larger engine, but even it hasn't been in production since 1985. Two seats, no power, and slower than your Bayliner. Good for training, shitty to own. Pass on that.
The 172 RG is another mid 80's airplane. The retractable gear gives it a 13 MPH speed advantage over a fixed gear 172, but the maintenance costs cancel that out. You will not be happy with the surprises a 20 year old airplane dishes out. Besides, airplane partnerships are just like joint ownership of a boat, but 10 times worse.
My advice is to proceed with flying lessons and examine your particular reasons for flying. If you can identify the need to travel within a 300 mile radius on a regular basis, then some sort of ownership might make sense. If you fly for the fun of it, then rent a new 172 from the local FBO and enjoy flying an up to date aircraft that offers reasonable performance.
Have fun, no matter what. I love flying, it's a real joy to drive an airplane around....

Mandelon
11-26-2003, 12:40 AM
Does Bayliner make planes? Join a club its cheaper. :D

Cheap Thrills
11-26-2003, 01:41 AM
If you just need to feel the freedom of flying. and not depending on it for business
may I suggest one of these ?get some stick and rudder time and a little tail dragger time
this ones mine .
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1127kitten.JPG
heres a web site . http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/7993/plane.html
the Hipps facility that builds the kits is just down the road from me .. A.G. and Sharron are some of the nicest people I know
I thought about going registered aircraft but theres ALOT of expense that goes with it . annual inspections,maint. insurance, hanger expense , cost of fuel , yadda yadda yadda
if you enjoy building things theres probobly no greater thrill than the escape of gravity in a home built aircraft .
if you dont build . and your lucky you might find a used one for a song and a dance ..
if you want to carry two theres even a model for that but there you go into a different catagory requiring all the yadda yadda bling bling :D
Have fun and good winds to ya .
C.T. :wink:

NorCal Gameshow
11-26-2003, 01:58 AM
i've got a friend that's building one these:
van's aircaft link (http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-6int.htm)

Cheap Thrills
11-26-2003, 02:10 AM
Originally posted by NorCal Gameshow
i've got a friend that's building one these:
van's aircaft link (http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv-6int.htm)
That is one of the nicest ones out there all aluminum too.
they kinda look like the Rans kit planes
the J-3 Kitten kit is stitts fiber over chrome molly tubing on the frame and stitts over wood on the wings . and can qualify for
FAR-103 ultra light catagory. its even reconised as FAR-103 by the FAA
another good kit is the KitFox / KitFox Lite (FAR103)
thanks for the link .
C.T. :wink:

Jungle Boy
11-26-2003, 05:36 AM
Hey Boozer, Good to see your still alive. You have been away from the boards for a while. I have a few buddies that share planes and they don't ever seem to bitch about it like guys that share boats and other toys.

OLDRAT
11-26-2003, 06:37 AM
Boozer,
Glad to see you back, hope all is going well.
Take the lessons, then decide. A plane is like a boat.....a money pit, but worse. Lots of high priced parts and maintenance along with rules and regs.
I used to fly quite a lot and my father had a plane in the 60's. You can't go wrong taking the lessons, but just rent or lease time until you decide.
Have a good holiday.

SternDrive
11-26-2003, 08:01 AM
Boozer,
I've owned airplanes for about 20 years now. I suggest that you get your license before you decide. Try to meet other pilots at your airport and see if you can fly as many airplane types as you can. This will help you decide what you want. Just like boats, airplanes have specific missions and there's not one that does it all. Right now I have two airplanes, one that goes fast (210 mph cruise) and takes us all over the country in short order:Glasair (http://www.***boat.com/image_center/showphoto.php?photo=12732&password=&sort=2&thecat=500)
and this one that we use just for fun. Red Pitts (http://www.***boat.com/image_center/showphoto.php?photo=13134&password=&sort=2&thecat=500)
I have partners in the red Pitts and it really does help a whole lot to share maintenance costs.
SternDrive

Hustler
11-26-2003, 08:43 AM
Take your lessons in a rented plane (the cheapest they have) then fly a few differant ones if you still want to buy one. remember your just getting seat time and the cheaper you make it on your self will just insure that you finish the training and get your license.
Sterndrive, That is one nice Pitts. Where was this picture taken
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/244New_Pitts.jpg

Her454
11-26-2003, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by 78Eliminator
I used to take flying lessons and was just about to take my test but ran out of money. What do you want to know? PM me....
J
78' Same here. Wanted to do Search and Rescue. Far more hours required and I ran out of $$ and time but I kick myself now for it. :(

Cheap Thrills
11-26-2003, 09:11 AM
Its not the taking off and flying part .(tail draggers excluded they are kinda tricky ) putting it back on the ground wheels first , thats the trick .
The chances of survival are in direct relation of the angle of arrival :D
C.T. :wink:

Havasu Cig
11-26-2003, 09:14 AM
I recieved my Private Helicopter rating in 1989, and my Commercial in 1991. I also have some time in fixed wings, but really fell in love with helicopters.
I have time in both a 150 and a 172, and actually flew one of my solo flight to Havasu in a 150. The 172 is a much more comfortable plane IMO.
You should get your license and fly several types of planes before you decide to buy one IMO.
We have thought about buying a plane to fly back and forth to Havasu in.:cool:

SternDrive
11-26-2003, 09:16 AM
Hustler,
Both airplanes are based at Deer Valley Airport in Phoenix.
-SternDrive

78Eliminator
11-26-2003, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Her454
78' Same here. Wanted to do Search and Rescue. Far more hours required and I ran out of $$ and time but I kick myself now for it. :(
Yeah, I will finish it up one day. I am just really focusing on a new business endeavor. Going to school and stuff, and dumping most of my money and time into engine building and boats....

Her454
11-26-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by 78Eliminator
dumping most of my money and time into engine building and boats....
Are we going to be blessed with your presence for New Years?:D

SoCal_fun
11-26-2003, 12:05 PM
Boozer (Uh..not the best nickname for a pilot :eek!: )
I am an Instrument Rated Private Pilot with hundreds of hours in small planes (flying for about 10 years now) and have owned a 1969 C-150J and shared in a 1965 C-172.
Size does matter! - C150 (small, slow but fun) C172 (bigger, faster, more fun)!
If you are a bigger guy like me (6'1", 250lbs) a C172 would be the way to go (if you like Cessna's), or a Piper Archer would be even better (IMHO).
I have rented many types of Piper aircraft up to the 300hp Dakota (tank) and Turbo Arrow RG(fast) and liked them all (except the Tomahawk.....stay away from the Tomahawk...:yuk: ).
My advice would echo what others have stated here and that is, take the lessons, study hard and try to meet other pilots at the airport and tag along in various planes. Lot's of times you can catch rides just by hanging out at the FBO or in the Airport lounge (depending on where you are training at).
Buying an airplane is easy and not all that expensive.... BUT owning/flying and upkeep of any older airplane will make owning a boat look like a walk on the beach...$$$$$$
Annual service is mandatory and has to be done by a licensed A&P (Airframe and Powerplant mechanic). Parts are outrageously priced and labor rates are close to $100/hr. Airport fuel is expensive as well, and you can expect to burn 8-16 gph.
Overall, Renting is going to be the best bet, untill you really figure out what type of plane you want and until you figure out what you can afford. You can get checked out at multiple FBO (fixed base operators) and try all the various types of planes they offer (after an initial checkout and signoff in that type airplane by one of the local instructors).
Don't let any of this discourage you though, there is NOTHING and I mean NOTHING like flying yourself wherever/whenever you want to go). :D :cool:
Email me if you want more details, I'd be happy to go over stuff with you that you may be unsure of (there are many many areas to cover and multiple tests of all types in flight training).
Best of luck!! And most of all, have fun!:cool:

78Eliminator
11-26-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Her454
Are we going to be blessed with your presence for New Years?:D
Yes, I think so. Where can I get info as to where to stay, etc? Is it too cold to tent camp?

rivercrazy
11-26-2003, 01:22 PM
I also have some flight experience. I used to fly all the time with a buddy that generally rented a Piper Warrior. It wasnt that fast but it was really fun. Someday I'm gonna get a licence and fly to the river. When money permits!
Is it hard to obtain an IFR rating? What's involved in that?

SoCal_fun
11-26-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by rivercrazy
Is it hard to obtain an IFR rating? What's involved in that?
rivercrazy,
It was pretty hard.... Lots of study time, and a lot of frustration.
I should mention, that after my Instrument long cross country flight, which was done in actual Instrument conditions, with nearby thunderstorms, I almost quit flying right there I was so rattled! :eek:
I pulled it together though and kept at it and have had a lot of fun since then flying in the Instrument system. It takes a bit of a commitment to keep current and up to date though, that is the hardest part after you get the ticket.
Check out www.avweb.com for some more info....
This may be more than you asked for...but here it is anyway from the FARS (Federal Aviation Regulations).
ยง 61.65 Instrument rating requirements.
(a) General. A person who applies for an instrument rating must:
(1) Hold at least a current private pilot certificate with an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift rating appropriate to the instrument rating sought;
(2) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet any of these requirements due to a medical condition, the Administrator may place such operating limitations on the applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;
(3) Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplish a home-study course of training on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the instrument rating sought;
(4) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required knowledge test;
(5) Receive and log training on the areas of operation of paragraph (c) of this section from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device that represents an airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the instrument rating sought;
(6) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test;
(7) Pass the required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section; however, an applicant is not required to take another knowledge test when that person already holds an instrument rating; and
(8) Pass the required practical test on the areas of operation in paragraph (c) of this section in --
(i) An airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift appropriate to the rating sought; or
(ii) A flight simulator or a flight training device appropriate to the rating sought and for the specific maneuver or instrument approach procedure performed. If an approved flight training device is used for the practical test, the instrument approach procedures conducted in that flight training device are limited to one precision and one nonprecision approach, provided the flight training device is approved for the procedure performed.
(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor or accomplished a home-study course on the following aeronautical knowledge areas that apply to the instrument rating sought:
(1) Federal Aviation Regulations of this chapter that apply to flight operations under IFR;
(2) Appropriate information that applies to flight operations under IFR in the "Aeronautical Information Manual;"
(3) Air traffic control system and procedures for instrument flight operations;
(4) IFR navigation and approaches by use of navigation systems;
(5) Use of IFR en route and instrument approach procedure charts;
(6) Procurement and use of aviation weather reports and forecasts and the elements of forecasting weather trends based on that information and personal observation of weather conditions;
(7) Safe and efficient operation of aircraft under instrument flight rules and conditions;
(8) Recognition of critical weather situations and windshear avoidance;
(9) Aeronautical decision making and judgment; and
(10) Crew resource management, including crew communication and coordination.
(c) Flight proficiency. A person who applies for an instrument rating must receive and log training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device, in accordance with paragraph (e) of this section, that includes the following areas of operation:
(1) Preflight preparation;
(2) Preflight procedures;
(3) Air traffic control clearances and procedures;
(4) Flight by reference to instruments;
(5) Navigation systems;
(6) Instrument approach procedures;
(7) Emergency operations; and
(8) Postflight procedures.
(d) Aeronautical experience. A person who applies for an instrument rating must have logged the following:
(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument -- airplane rating; and
(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include --
(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;
(ii) At least 3 hours of instrument training that is appropriate to the instrument rating sought from an authorized instructor in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the date of the test;
(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of --
(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;
(iv) For an instrument -- helicopter rating, instrument training specific to helicopters on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a helicopter that is performed under IFR, and consists of --
(A) A distance of at least 100 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems; and
(v) For an instrument -- powered-lift rating, instrument training specific to a powered-lift on cross-country flight procedures that includes at least one cross-country flight in a powered-lift that is performed under IFR and consists of --
(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.
(e) Use of flight simulators or flight training devices. If the instrument training was provided by an authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device --
(1) A maximum of 30 hours may be performed in that flight simulator or flight training device if the training was accomplished in accordance with part 142 of this chapter; or
(2) A maximum of 20 hours may be performed in that flight simulator or flight training device if the training was not accomplished in accordance with part 142 of this chapter.
[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62 FR 40900, July 30, 1997]

rivercrazy
11-26-2003, 01:41 PM
Jeez. I figured it would be tough but those requirements are tougher than I thought!
Doesn't sound worth it for a private pilot that doesnt fly that much.
It just nice to have the ability to fly whenever you want regardless of certain weather conditions.....

superdave013
11-26-2003, 01:49 PM
I've done lots of flyin.
These days when I do it I try not to leave the house. :rolleyes:

Her454
11-26-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by 78Eliminator
Yes, I think so. Where can I get info as to where to stay, etc? Is it too cold to tent camp?
I'll send you a PM so I dont hijack this thread...............

SoCalOffshore
11-26-2003, 03:07 PM
Boozer, you talked for months about buying a boat and now your talking about buying a plane, before you have taken even one lessonl. I suggest you just buying something and quit talking!
:D Just buy a Mooney.

SoCal_fun
11-26-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by SoCalOffshore
Boozer, you talked for months about buying a boat and now your talking about buying a plane, before you have taken even one lessonl. I suggest you just buying something and quit talking!
:D Just buy a Mooney.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh............
Very good advice there SoCalOffshore! :D :D
Mooney=fast!
I'd hop in a Mooney anyday (if I could fit ok that is....) :(

SternDrive
11-28-2003, 07:04 PM
Yeah, I love to wave as I blow past them...... :)
Glasairs=Faster....

DaveA
11-28-2003, 09:09 PM
Boozer,
I soloed on my 16th birthday, two weeks before I got my drivers license. It sucked having Mom drive me to the airport 'til then.
Been flying ever since. Got the best of both worlds, live on the lake off the end of the runway...
Get your license and rent, or join a flying club. If you do the club thing, which I personally have never gone thru with, but have almost from time to time (always went back to ownership) Read The Documents Carefully. Then Do It Again...Talk to All Members- not just take one guy's word for how it is, if it's a small group. Usually 80% of the flying is done by 20% of the members, and the rest just sit around and gripe about maintenance costs and tiedown fees and being hassled for being behind on their dues. But it works for most folks.
Hey Sterndrive...
Nice Pitts S2. We built two of them some years ago. One was an S1 with a 135 Lyc (flatwing) and the other was an S1S (symmetrical w/4 ailerons) with an aerobatic Lyc 0360/200hp/CS prop. Those were the glory days. Last project was a TriPacer:D
The avatar was not one we owned/operated. I'll have to work on posting a photo of some of the 'past pleasures'.
DaveA
Lake Norman Airpark 14A

DaveA
11-28-2003, 09:11 PM
And BTW, I would blow past 172's and Cherokees in the TriPacer...Out climb, out run, and out haul. Had the 160 Lycoming.

DaveA
11-28-2003, 09:14 PM
Here I go again...
Boozer!
Where you learning to fly? Centennial Aurora or Front Range?
Got a flying friend out there that operates out of Front Range.
DaveA

sam pioske
11-29-2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Hustler
Take your lessons in a rented plane (the cheapest they have) then fly a few differant ones if you still want to buy one. remember your just getting seat time and the cheaper you make it on your self will just insure that you finish the training and get your license.
Sterndrive, That is one nice Pitts. Where was this picture taken
My friend took a pitts upside down at Ruth airport, 20' off the runway was awsome TILL the engine quit. Only 2nd person to surive a Pitts now only good for parts show.
He should wait till he's flown alot of planes then decide! Damm lawers not many small planes left. Mine were Cessna 150 172 182 210 - piper 140 180 260 >02 cents Sam
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/244New_Pitts.jpg

SternDrive
11-29-2003, 06:30 AM
The photo was taken at Deer Valley airport in Phoenix, AZ.
Here's the web site my partners and I put together for the airplane: AZ HIGH-G (http://www.azhighg.com/)
Lots of photos and several aerobatic videos....
SternDrive

Sleek-Jet
11-30-2003, 06:07 PM
Boozer,
Good luck on your flight training. It'll be alot of fun, alot of work, and there will be times you'll wonder if you'll finish, but hang in there. It's definately worth it.
As far as purchasing, take your time, fly as many types as possible, and seriously evaluate your needs. From personal experience the 172RG (i.e. the Gutlass, the ****lass) doesn't do to well in the mountains, and the folding gear isn't worth the extra expense. Stick to fixed gear.
I've got a '59 182 and love it. For my typical trips (about 300- 350 miles) it more than meets my needs.
Good luck.