Best Racing gas to mix with pump gas..

[Tolly]

I once had a Howl fuel rep. tell me that their gas blended better with pump gas than did the C12 I was currently using. I realize that he was trying to "Sell" his product, but I have often wondered if there might have been some truth to his statement. Have any of you guys been told the same thing? Also, does anyone know if some of the race gasolines blend better with pump gas, or if it was just a bullshit sales pitch. I have been running Av-gas but I will not be able to buy it anymore here locally as my source will soon be gone so I am going to have to do something to keep the boat happy. 496ci BBC tall deck, Brodix BB-2 heads, 10:5:1 comp.
Thanks

[WacoTex]

Where in Texas are you?? I know tons of places to get AvGas from.

[vdrivenman]

we can purchase it at the pump here at the local airports. you have to have a chevron platnium card,but anyone can obtain one.
pull up to the pump, hook up the ground wire, it will ask for airplane numbers. i put in my tx'#s and pump away.
available 24hrs a day.

[Tolly]

Our local private airport will no longer sell it to us boat and hotrod guys, and there is no pay at the pump setup. The new managment actually said it was illegal, which I am pretty sure it isn't. I was going to send a buddy of mine up there that they don't know and have him tell them he needed it for his ultra-light, but regardless of that, I would still like to know the answer of my original question if anyone could answer it.

[screamdreambrad]

Originally posted by Tolly
Our local private airport will no longer sell it to us boat and hotrod guys, and there is no pay at the pump setup. The new managment actually said it was illegal, which I am pretty sure it isn't. I was going to send a buddy of mine up there that they don't know and have him tell them he needed it for his ultra-light, but regardless of that, I would still like to know the answer of my original question if anyone could answer it. i don't know anything about if it mixes better or not is even a problem, but i used to run one gallon to four 114 76 to 91 mobil that comes to like 99 octane i think. plenty for a 10.5:1 motor. brad

[Heatseeker]

I've read somewhere that dispensing av-gas for non aviation purposes was a against federal law punishable by $25,000 fine for each offense.

[svlperry]

down at the river they used to have av gas pumps to where u can pull up to the pump and u can buy it straight from the pump i don't know about know

[squirt]

Originally posted by Heatseeker
I've read somewhere that dispensing av-gas for non aviation purposes was a against federal law punishable by $25,000 fine for each offense.
I don't know about anyone else but when I hammer it I'm flying:p

[Duane HTP]

You can mix just about any GOOD brand of RACING FUEL with 91 octane unleaded and it will do just fine.
Rememnber, the unleaded gets it's octane rating from being highly refined. The race gas gets it's octane from adding tetra ethyl lead or such.
So if you mix 90 octane unleaded 1/2 and 1/2 with 100 octane racing gas you get 95 octane fuel, Right?? WRONG! The highly refined unleaded preimun gas pulls some of the lead away from the 100 octane racing fuel and produces an octane of about 97 1/2 for the new mixed fuel. Also because of the lubrication differences in the fuels, the racing gas is much better for your engine than the dry av gas. Some people mix a little Marvel Mystery Oil with their av gas to add lubricant. But, be careful there. Oil in fuel causes detonation at much less desirable conditions.
I know there'll be a half dozen of you come on and say I've never had a problem with av gas. Good! Keep using it, but this is what can happen.

[WacoTex]

OK, here is what I know for a fact --
1) AvGas may not be used in a motor vehicle that is used on PUBLIC ROADS. That is because the state does not collect road tax from AvGas. They do collect airport tax, though! Which is a good thing, because it keeps airports open so we can keep buying AvGas. Avgas is usually only around $2.00 a gallon, so I mix it with el cheapo 87 octane at a 1:4 ratio (AV to 87) and this works out to be about the same as 95 octane (going by how much timing I can run).
When you buy AvGas, tell the attendant it is for a plane based at a private strip.
You can get AvGas delivered bulk, to your home or shop, as long as it isn't zoned "residential", so this only works for those that live in industrial parks or in the country. Many will only sell minimum quantity of 300, although the guy that delivers ours will do a minimum quantity of 100 gallons. It is $1.90 per gallon bulk. you can get large fuel tanks from any tractor supply company store.
The whole thing about AvGas being too dry - - - - I don't buy it. Sure, when you get some on your hands it evaporates quickly, but that just means it doesn't have all the "Heavy" distillates you find in auto gas. You wouldn't believe the crap they mix into auto gas!! Also, auto gas is completely vapoized by the time it is lit off, so it is dry, too.
I would like to see proof that you need to add marvel mystery oil. Sounds like an old wives tale. Unleaded gas IS NOT "highly refined". It is crap. There can be 200 (depending on the refinery and location) different chemicals in auto gas that are not allowed by law into AvGas. Besides the traces of diesel, heating oil, kerosene, motor oil, there are all kinds of crap that refineries would otherwise have to dispose of as hazardous waste. Instead, they mix it in with the gasoline. It all burns. They just add more MTBE and Tolulene to get the octane back up.
Don't believe me? Ask someone that works at a refinery!!

[Liberator TJ1984]

Like Waco asked ....where are you located ???
I have a Dealer close to CC. Tx. that can get you 110 race fuel (purple ) for $ 2.75 a gal / $ 150 a barrel all you want..no middle man...
I have mixed Av Gas with Super unleaded 50/50 but added extra lead subsitute from auto store and top lube ...for me by the time I mix everything and fool around with it , just buying the race fuel a drum at a time is alot easier... and Safer ... plus I know what I am getting , as a Spec. sheet is also provided , w/ born on date when it was blended at Refinery
just my 2*
Gopherrr

[Tolly]

Duane HTP said...
Also because of the lubrication differences in the fuels, the racing gas is much better for your engine than the dry av gas. Some people mix a little Marvel Mystery Oil with their av gas to add lubricant. But, be careful there. Oil in fuel causes detonation at much less desirable conditions.
I have also been told this by a couple of aircraft mechanics.

[LUVNLIFE]

I used to pull my boat right out on the runway at the airport in the Antelope Valley to fuel up. Never had a problem getting it or running it.:)

[Jet Hydro]

If you run av gas, be real aware that the octane rating is never the same! I use to own a gas station and I could buy av gas. I learned it the hard way that the octane rating will vary from load to load. I bought a test kit and found out that I could get loads from 95 to 109 octane. It`s never the same! If your like me and run a motor that calls for high octane, then you better buy racing fuel and not play with the dry av gas. As Duane said AV Gas is DRY!
Oil will only burn a hole in your pistons!
If you don't have the money to run racing fuel then mix it with 91 and save yourself problems down the road.
Just my $0.02 ;)

[Bow Tie Omega]

As of 5 years ago, the following was true, how this pertains to auto motors, I do not know. I was a Corpsman and Crew Chief on Huey UH/HH-1N's (aka 212). As far as the turbines were concerned, we could run different grades of AV gas (military rating of JP-4, JP-5, etc) . ANyways, in an emergency or if we were low on fuel in a desolate region, we could run straight pump gas from a gas station. Due to the less refined fuel and many many additives that come with pump fuel, we could only run our aircraft once like this, enough to get her home and then the turbines have to go through what they called a phase work up which means they get pulled out and rebuilt. This was also the case for other Aircraft I crewed on (HH60-H and H-3's).

[WacoTex]

Bow Tie Omega is right, there are certain aromatic hydrocarbons in gasoline that attack the seals used in a turbine engine's fuel metering system. This happens in piston engines aircraft, too. I can state several aircraft that are not approved for auto gas for similar reasons. (Other aircraft are approved for auto gas use by way of a STC, or supplemental type certificate)
Aviation gasoline has to meet very strict ASTM and MIL-SPEC standards. The amount of Tetraethyl Lead in 100LL AvGas is specified as a minimum amout - - you may get more or less in a load, but it has to meet the MINIMUMS.
One more thing that no one has bothered to mention:
AvGas has a higher specific gravity than auto gas or race gas. That means you MUST jet a number or two (or more) richer when running straight AvGas.
I don't think a lot of people know that.
This is very easy to set up if you run a EGT gauge to determine how rich or lean you are running. Also, I have noticed that engines running on Avgas are more lenient to being jetted too rich, ie: less black smoke.
I still don't think AvGas burns any "drier" than auto gas, but you must jet accordingly, or you will probably run lean. I think that is why AvGas has the bad rap it does. Just MHO. I have always had good luck with it running it in roundy-round cars, just have to jet a little richer.

[HavasuDreamin']

Originally posted by WacoTex
When you buy AvGas, tell the attendant it is for a plane based at a private strip.
It isn't that easy. They ask me for tail numbers here in Indiana. :(
Now I mix Union 76 Competition 110+ with Sunoco 94. Gets me where I am going. :cool:

[Squirtcha?]

I don't run avgas myself, but I've got lots of buds that do. I specifically had my motor built to tolerate pump gas and so far, so good.
Out here in zonyland, you can just drive right out on the runway and up to the pumps with your boat in tow, and fill her up. Take 5 gal jugs with..........whatever. If there are laws against this practice, they sure don't enforce em around here.
On a friday before a boating weekend it's not uncommon to see trucks with boats in tow waiting in line to get their avgas.
I think they sell more to boaters than they do to aviators.

[WacoTex]

Havasu Dreamin', if they ask for one, make one up. In the US they all start with "N", that's almost a given. Then follow up with either 5 numbers or 4 numbers and a letter. Tell them its for N1034Q, that's my old Cessna 150. Lots of those based at private strips everywhere. Don't dress like a redneck or act like one, or they'll probably think you are lying. Make an attempt to look like you might actually be getting gas for an airplane. ;)

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by WacoTex
Havasu Dreamin', if they ask for one, make one up. In the US they all start with "N", that's almost a given. Then follow up with either 5 numbers or 4 numbers and a letter. Tell them its for N1034Q, that's my old Cessna 150. Lots of those based at private strips everywhere. Don't dress like a redneck or act like one, or they'll probably think you are lying. Make an attempt to look like you might actually be getting gas for an airplane. ;)
Or tell them you are going to use it in a tractor for tractor pulling, that is what I have to do.

[Bense468]

They don't even ask at Brackett where I get it. I just walk up there give the dude my card and pick what fuel I want. Do it for Glamis etc.

[victorfb]

way back when i used av gas in my 4 stroke three wheeler when i raced it. i didnt have to rejet but i did have to raise the needle one or two notches. it burned very clean and i never had any problem with when running it. but when i got home and and let it sit for a day or two the carb slide would stick because of the lack of lubrication, or? i thought maybe the av gas reacted to the aluminium carb and steel slide and created a white film. like you see when it dries on your hand or? i would do some research on this before useing it in my boat especially i was running aluminium heads.

[460rogers]

Found this last year might help?from WALTS HOT BOATS (http://www.netfeed.com/~waltshbs/waltpredet.html) It's good reading. WE BE COOL

[Tolly]

Here is some good info on Avgas and mixing.
http://liam821.com/pix/?path=info&text=avgas2.txt

[H2OT PURSUIT]

Originally posted by Bow Tie Omega
As of 5 years ago, the following was true, how this pertains to auto motors, I do not know. I was a Corpsman and Crew Chief on Huey UH/HH-1N's (aka 212). As far as the turbines were concerned, we could run different grades of AV gas (military rating of JP-4, JP-5, etc) . ANyways, in an emergency or if we were low on fuel in a desolate region, we could run straight pump gas from a gas station. Due to the less refined fuel and many many additives that come with pump fuel, we could only run our aircraft once like this, enough to get her home and then the turbines have to go through what they called a phase work up which means they get pulled out and rebuilt. This was also the case for other Aircraft I crewed on (HH60-H and H-3's).
Some body correct me if I'm wrong, but when I flew, in the Navy, in the late 60's AvGas had ratings like 115/145, etc. (two different types of octane ratings if I remember right) and JP4 & JP5 were jet fuels that, I thought, were basically high quality kerosene. I've never heard JP4 or JP5 refered to as AvGas. That was a long time ago and memories of the 60's are a little fuzzy. Am I screwed up here???:confused: :confused:

[WacoTex]

Tolly and 460Rogers, both of those articles are interesting to read, but neither is 100% true. There are incorrect statement in both.
The first article is so full of mistakes, I'm not going to pick it apart here.
In the second article - 100LL is BLUE, not green, And he claims to fly a Mooney, he should know!! The number of grams of lead is close....the minimum for 100 LL is 2 grams of TET per gallon. The old Green 100/130 octane had 5 grams. The Purple 115/145 is only available at two places in the whole U.S. that I know of - - Midland, TX for the CAF warbirds, and Reno, NV for the race planes.
I really don't think AvGas is for everyone, and if its illegal to use in your area in anything than an airplane, I wouldn't want you to get in trouble. That $25,000 fine sounds like a bunch of crap unless you are buying thousands and thousands of gallons of it. If you buy 20-30-40 gallons for your boat, no one is going to drop the hammer on you. Hell, I know of a Sheriff in a neighboring town who buys it at the airport for his race car! The smaller the airport, the better!

[Sleek-Jet]

Originally posted by HavasuDreamin'
It isn't that easy. They ask me for tail numbers here in Indiana. :(
Now I mix Union 76 Competition 110+ with Sunoco 94. Gets me where I am going. :cool:
As a part time line "technician" at the local airport, I would venture a guess as to why you need a tail #.
The newer point of sale machines require one to complete the transaction, especially if it's paid via credit card.
We run into this when pumping fuel for the local race car guys. Usually we just enter an "N" number of one of the airplanes based on the field and everything is copecetic.
Jet Hydro, what brand of fuel did you used to sell????
Oh yeah, since we talked about running gasoline in turbine engines. The gentleman I work for on weekends has been in aviation around here since the early 60's. He says Phillips petrolium was running Sarbreliner 40's when they first came out. Since you couldn't get Jet-A back then in this part of the world they ran Av-Gas. He says the back of the airplane was white from all the baked on lead.

[OkieDave]

Ten or Twelve years ago, you could buy AV gas at a couple of the convenience stores in Havasu. Since I moved back to Ok, I get it at the self serve airport here. When it asks for tail numbers, I use the ones off the plane mounted on a pedastal for display. Also, you can usually get five or so gallons out of the dump cannister behind the pump if your willing to siphon it out. pretty easy. a service tech told me to help myself one time when the pump wouldn't come on. he said it saved him haveing to empty the cannister his next trip. since i mix it 50/50 with regular, 5 gallons gets me ten.

[HavasuDreamin']

Thanks for the info. WacoTex and RD, but it is just as easy for me to get Union 76 110 competition plus and if I mix it with 94, it is only about $2.50/gallon, about the same price as av-gas. :cool:

[460rogers]

Dude I only posted article because of what it said about the fine.I have never even hinted that I was an expert on anything.Just thought it was a good read.EXCUSE ME.

[Tolly]

WacoTex said...
Tolly and 460Rogers, both of those articles are interesting to read, but neither is 100% true. There are incorrect statement in both. Well, here is a link with much better and more accurate information that will tell you anything you want to know about "Avgas".
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/aviationfuel/9_ag_specsandtest.shtm

[Bow Tie Omega]

H20T pursuit, you are partially correct, I also should have explained myself more thoroughly. Here is a quick refresher on aviation fuels and then I will re-explain my thinking in all of this.
JP-4 is a hydrocarbon based fuel (wide cut), not used much any more, higher evaporation rate, higher flamability rate.
JP-5 is kerosene based with a higher flash point for safety purposes on board ship.
JP-8 is also kerosene based, lower flash point, slightly better overall performance
Jet-A is very similar to JP-5
Jet-A-1 has a lower freezing point, good for high altitude flight
Jet-B is similar to JP-4, less expensive and used in cold climates due to its lower freezing point and low evaporation properties.
AVgas in the military is HGAG or HGAF (High grade aviation).
This "avgas" is known as Grade 100 and Grade 100LL (low lead), the 100 are octane ratings. While their may be slight variations in octane levels, they are all very similar in make up since they need to be uniform for its respected purpose, combustion in piston powered aircraft, and yes, the contents of the fuels are strictly regulated.
Now that we are all refreshed let me re-deliver my point more clearly. My thinking was this; The aircraft I flew on could use any of the above fuels in the following order, JP-5, 8, Jet-A, JP-4, Jet B, HGAG, Grade 100LL, Grade 100 and then pump gas. Pump gas was only in an emergency. The reasoning was that pump gas was not as highly refined as aviation fuel and had many more additives which wreaked havoc on a turbine ultimately. WIth that said, why would avgas be a poor alternative to racing fuel, when in fact, avgas is a more pure fuel, less chemically contaminated fuel