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JakeAisA
12-10-2003, 09:45 AM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031210/D7VBJS3O0.html
If you didnÂ’t send troops to Iraq to end the tryrrany and defeat the threat of Saddam Hussein, what makes you think you have the right to enjoy direct rewards of the fighting? France, Germany and Russia opposed this war and they told the IraqiÂ’s that the rape, the murder, the torture and the genocide didnÂ’t matter. America was willing to go to war without WMDÂ’s there; these countries didnÂ’t think WMDÂ’s was enough reason. But now they want to make money by getting in on the rebuilding of Iraq that was paid for by the blood, sweat and lives of American and British soldiers and the Iraqi people? Give me a break. IÂ’m glad Bush is sticking it to them. The amazing part is that these countries are probably surprised Bush told them the shove it! They probably think this is unreasonable! The Europeans are completely worthless save the British.

Blown 472
12-10-2003, 09:48 AM
coming from Jakeasia???

Essex502
12-10-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by RiverDave
Now I'm not really up to date on foreign policy etc...
But I was under the impression that we went to war with IRAQ becuase they had WMD's that were a direct threat to the United States? Then after the fact we never really found any?
I was also under the impression that the rest of the world was saying that WMD's are enough reason to goto war, but they wanted another 60 days for the UN inspectors to look around? We went to war without giving them that time which is why France, Germany & Russia opposed the war.. ???
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of that.. Like I said before I'm not really super up to date on all that's going on.
RD
RD - I think those frog leg eating, Rhine wine drinking, pinko a$$holes would have found some other reason had the 60 more days been given. Those countries were already in bed with the "Sad-am" regime and weren't gonna' futz that up. Just in case he stuck around.
I haven't had a bottle of French wine since though I still own and drive my German car. F&ck Russia as they've got nothing I'd want.

v-drive
12-10-2003, 10:28 AM
Yeah to what Essex502 said. A little country like Denmark has the balls but France doesn't. I really like French food to but I will never eat it again. I won't buy the German car I wanted either.
V proud to be an american-drive :cool:

gnarley
12-10-2003, 10:30 AM
This Iraq thing is a mess! Bush has foreign policy & no plans on how to improve our home situation. Lets keep paying more to rebuild Iraq & keep sending our troops over and hear about them dieing every night on the news.....YEah right :mad: I know if we leave they win but is it worth the lives of any of our men or women over there?
I hate to say it our Administration are a bunch of Hypocrites! They want other nations to help police Iraq now that it is deadlier than it was during the war but they don't want to let them in on the rebuilding? If we want help in the policing then we should also allow bidding from those countries that we now want to help from over there. In my gut I don't think any other country should benefit from our losses but you can't have it both ways can you?
I think we should get the hell out of there ASAP & stop spending BILLIONS of dollars on that F*CKING piece of desert. If the IraqiÂ’s don't want to play fair then lock them out of Global trade and see if they can survive off bread & oil and make sure they can't sell it till they are ready to trade then warn any bordering countries that if they trade they will also be isolated. If they don't like that maybe we should just make it so they live in a glass ashtray. :mad:

HM
12-10-2003, 10:31 AM
RD - I think what Jake was reffering to is that the U.S. did not use WMD(nukes) in the war with Iraq. We had the option to kill 'em all and let god (Ala) sort them all out.

Blown 472
12-10-2003, 10:32 AM
Gnarly Amen my brutha.

JakeAisA
12-10-2003, 10:43 AM
Look, we send soldiers to fight in foreign lands so American civilians won't be attacked here. It's real simple. Soldiers fight and they die, that's war. War is necessary when evil exists in the world--if we don't hit them on their turf, they'll bring it to us. The world is a small place these days and I'd rather have American soldiers fighting our wars over having 18 year old secretaries forced to jump from 100 story burning buildings attacked by terrorists.
Iraq did have WMD's and the UN wanted wanted another 60 days on top of the 12 years they gave Saddam. That 60 days would have been followed by another 60 days and then another and another. We know they had WMD's becuase Saddam has used them before on Iran and his own people. War was iminent in early 2002 and Saddam had a whole year to hide a couple of truck loads of equipment and weapons, thanks to the UN's demand for more time.
Saddam would have still been in power if he had destroyed those weapons. It was a foregone conclusion, in the opinion of the UN itself, that he possesed WMD's; why would he go and destroy them without telling anybody or documenting it? The only answer is that he didn't destroy the programs, he hid it or sold it--he had all the time in the world to do it.

Blown 472
12-10-2003, 10:48 AM
You watch CNN?

Infomaniac
12-10-2003, 11:18 AM
It is unfortunate that our sons and daughters are over there. But as mentioned, we take the fight to the terrorists on their land so we do not have to fight them on our land. And some day that will happen if they are not dealt with ASAP. Sadam is in on terrorism
Did you read this certificate sent to me by my daughter? Along with the flag she flew over the air base?
http://marineassault.net/flag1.JPG

MagicMtnDan
12-10-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by gnarley
This Iraq thing is a mess! Bush has foreign policy & no plans on how to improve our home situation. Lets keep paying more to rebuild Iraq & keep sending our troops over and hear about them dieing every night on the news.....YEah right :mad: I know if we leave they win but is it worth the lives of any of our men or women over there?
If we do pull out immediately, do you think it's worth the lives of men and women and children over here? Who do you think our soldiers are fighting over there? There are as many foreign terrorists attacking our troops as Iraqis.
Do you REALLY want to leave now that the country is free from Saddam's regime and the millions of people there that you don't hear anything about are FREE? We freed millions of people - they are now free for the first times in their lives! Do you realize what that means, what that's like? You might not becasue you might just be taking YOUR freedom for granted.
Originally posted by gnarley
I hate to say it our Administration are a bunch of Hypocrites! They want other nations to help police Iraq now that it is deadlier than it was during the war but they don't want to let them in on the rebuilding? If we want help in the policing then we should also allow bidding from those countries that we now want to help from over there. In my gut I don't think any other country should benefit from our losses but you can't have it both ways can you?
Hypocrites? Really? Seems like our President and his administration is a lot more open and is a lot more clear about their policy than the previous administration was.
Do you know that the Iraqis were busy paying millions of dollars in bribes to senior leaders in France and Russia? Well stay tuned because that story is going to break wide open very soon.
Did you pay attention to how things were "working" in the UN before the war? Did you see what France, Russia and Germany were doing to the US? Do you really want those countries, who would stop at nothing to keep us from taking out Saddam, when they had all the proof they'd ever need, to be involved in rebuilding Iraq?
Let me put it this way, if you had a crack house on your street and you asked all your neighbors to help get rid of the people hanging out there and all but three of them got involved and made your street and your kids safer, would you welcome those people into your house? Would you have the same feelings towards them as you would towards those that took the risk and got involved to make things better?
Originally posted by gnarley
I think we should get the hell out of there ASAP & stop spending BILLIONS of dollars on that F*CKING piece of desert. If the IraqiÂ’s don't want to play fair then lock them out of Global trade and see if they can survive off bread & oil and make sure they can't sell it till they are ready to trade then warn any bordering countries that if they trade they will also be isolated. If they don't like that maybe we should just make it so they live in a glass ashtray. :mad:
Who are the Iraqis you are talking about?! Do you realize that the same few thousand terrorists who are causing problems will cause even more havoc if we were to pull out abruptly? How can you expect to deal with the "Iraqis" if all they would have is an unstable government intimidated by a handful of terrorists?!
I appreciate your frustration with the Iraqi situation but most of the time doing the right thing is not as simple as having a parade down Main Street. This is something we must do and do to completion. If we don't, we here will never be safe because the message we send to the world is we go in strong, stay for a short time and come out like pussies with our tails between our legs. They would see that we talk the talk but don't walk the walk and when things get tough we don't have the will to stick it out. That will be a very dangerous thing for everyone here in the US if it should happen.
Would those of you against the Iraqi war feel better if there was another terrorist attack on the United States? Do you think that the war in Iraq is unrelated to there not being any attacks on the US since 9/11?

Infomaniac
12-10-2003, 12:13 PM
Well you know the freedom of speach in this country is exploited by the media daily to make sure we buy their publications or watch their programs that advertisers pay to be a part of.
They are not accountable for the accuracy unless it is directed at an individual. They can speculate at will when it comes to a government or political party.
Not saying what you watched was not true. Just take it with a grain of salt.

eliminatedsprinter
12-10-2003, 12:49 PM
There were many valid reasons stated by Bush and others in this administration for the war in Iraq. WMDs was just the one the press most hyped and the Dems are making the most fuss about.
For example, Saddam violated virtually all the terms of the treaty that allowed him to stay in power after Desert Storm. He also had his troops shooting at our planes consistantly as they patroled the "no fly zones". How many U.S. presidents in the past have allowed a country to shoot at our people on an almost daily basis? He also had terrorist training camps etc... These things are not in dispute and they are all more than enough reason to take him out. Not to mention the fact that a Hitler-like madman was controlling the world's second largest oil reserves and the "fertile Crescent" that is the main food and water supply to that part of the world.

JakeAisA
12-10-2003, 01:12 PM
Hey eliminatedsprinter, don't forget about Saddam Hussein's $10k - $20 payments to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. These payments were proven to take place. Saddam Hussein was a supporter of terrrorists and terrorism. It's a fact.
Have you noticed lately that there have been less Palestinian suicide attacks on Israel since Saddam has been cutoff from making these payments to the families of homicide bombers? The guy was a terrorist and the easiest target after Afghanistan. We now have a base in the heart of the Middle East that is defended by 250,000 highly trained US and British soldiers who are prepared to eat the hearts out of anybody who dare threaten to kill American civilians. Iraq is a strategic target and a big target. The biggest madman in the region is gone and we now have the upperhand in terms of using Iraq as model of democracy and freedom, as well as a headward base to attack equally dangerous regimes in Iran and Syria.
This war in Iraq is just phase two of the military aspect in the War on Terrorism. The Middle East has only so many people, only so many fanatics and only so many people willing to fight a loosing battle in caves with little food, little water, inferior weapons while watching your brethren get desimated day after day by such an overwhelmingly advanced US military and it's intelligence. We can win this war and its a lot easier then you'd think. The more strength we show with perseverance while, at the same time, creating examples of freedom and western ideals (like Iraq), the easier this task is going to be. We're dealing with stone age, mystic savages that have no idea what the alternative to radical islam is. Health, food and time are going to become real attractive to many in the Middle East. But we must kill the terrorists and thier supporters first...before they kill us.

CA Stu
12-10-2003, 01:46 PM
I understand the reason the French didn't want us to invade Iraq (apart from the fact that they're pussies) is that the French have been selling restricted technology to the Iraqis for their "nuclear energy facilitites" all along.
In other words, selling classified technology that enables production of nuclear weapons to a rogue nation. They didn't want us to go in there and bust them for the backstabbing pussy ass ****s that they are.
The French have a pathetiv history when it comes to character and conflict, they are just flat out despicable.
After all the US has done for the French, they should be licking our boots at every opportunity. No more, Jacques! You can all go eat le dicque!
Cheers
CA Stu

Kilrtoy
12-10-2003, 07:25 PM
They needed their asses kicked and I hate the french,
there women dont even shave......

THE VIKING
12-10-2003, 08:18 PM
Yesterday i replied to yhis thread, stating that not all europeans went to hide their sorry asses in a hole, but actually send troops to help remove this terrorist, but someone erased it!!!!
Who the **** do who ever did it think you are, removing my reply.:mad:
This saddam thing is a concern of the world, maybe they did'nt find any nuclear weapons there, but that's just beacause they caught him in time!!!!, sooner or later he would have had them.

Kilrtoy
12-10-2003, 08:19 PM
Yesterday i replied to yhis thread, stating that not all europeans went to hide their sorry asses in a hole, but actually send troops to help remove this terrorist, but someone erased it!!!!
The only ones that can do that is a moderator

Kurtis500
12-10-2003, 08:53 PM
I like to use history as a guide. A few names that ring a bell are:
-League of Nations
-1918 Armistice restricting weapons of a certain country
-Willful breaking of weapons restrictions
-No-one stepping in and stopping it IN TIME.
-France and Britain with heads buried in the sand.
-US 'minding its own business'...again
-military reclamation of previous 'land' before armistice
-no one stopped them while still weaker than his neighbors militarily
Put them all together and you have the beginning of the brutal end for over 50 million people and over half a million young Americans.
Helluva idea....all in favor of 'minding our own business' again raise your hand.

Infomaniac
12-10-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by THE VIKING
Yesterday i replied to yhis thread, stating that not all europeans went to hide their sorry asses in a hole, but actually send troops to help remove this terrorist, but someone erased it!!!!
Who the **** do who ever did it think you are, removing my reply.:mad:
This saddam thing is a concern of the world, maybe they did'nt find any nuclear weapons there, but that's just beacause they caught him in time!!!!, sooner or later he would have had them.
This thread started today just before noon. Must have been a different thread?

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 05:15 AM
No, but there is the matter of difference in time!!!!
When i am going to bed, you are getting up!!!!

Havasu Hangin'
12-11-2003, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by THE VIKING
No, but there is the matter of difference in time!!!!
When i am going to bed, you are getting up!!!!
Actually...when some database work was done yesterday...some posts were lost. No one deleted it, that I know of.

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 05:44 AM
OK, then i am happy again, force majeure is no ones fault.

likwidsukr
12-11-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by gnarley
This Iraq thing is a mess! Bush has foreign policy & no plans on how to improve our home situation. Lets keep paying more to rebuild Iraq & keep sending our troops over and hear about them dieing every night on the news.....YEah right :mad: I know if we leave they win but is it worth the lives of any of our men or women over there?
I hate to say it our Administration are a bunch of Hypocrites! They want other nations to help police Iraq now that it is deadlier than it was during the war but they don't want to let them in on the rebuilding? If we want help in the policing then we should also allow bidding from those countries that we now want to help from over there. In my gut I don't think any other country should benefit from our losses but you can't have it both ways can you?
I think we should get the hell out of there ASAP & stop spending BILLIONS of dollars on that F*CKING piece of desert. If the IraqiÂ’s don't want to play fair then lock them out of Global trade and see if they can survive off bread & oil and make sure they can't sell it till they are ready to trade then warn any bordering countries that if they trade they will also be isolated. If they don't like that maybe we should just make it so they live in a glass ashtray. :mad:
Well like I said plenty of times, opinions are like assholes everyones got one!! But I strongly disagree with your whole thought process. "I think" if you do not like someone you can FIND dirt on them and conjer up schemes to demote them. But that is also my opinion, thats made possible by the men and women who are fighting over there, that is why this country is so great!
On a side note I am sick and fu***n tired of these left ass tree-huggin USA haters get the **** out of the COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!! Cuz some of us are proud to be here and to fight for what is right. If not now when????????? Wait untill they get even stronger?

likwidsukr
12-11-2003, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Look, we send soldiers to fight in foreign lands so American civilians won't be attacked here. It's real simple. Soldiers fight and they die, that's war. War is necessary when evil exists in the world--if we don't hit them on their turf, they'll bring it to us. The world is a small place these days and I'd rather have American soldiers fighting our wars over having 18 year old secretaries forced to jump from 100 story burning buildings attacked by terrorists.
Iraq did have WMD's and the UN wanted wanted another 60 days on top of the 12 years they gave Saddam. That 60 days would have been followed by another 60 days and then another and another. We know they had WMD's becuase Saddam has used them before on Iran and his own people. War was iminent in early 2002 and Saddam had a whole year to hide a couple of truck loads of equipment and weapons, thanks to the UN's demand for more time.
Saddam would have still been in power if he had destroyed those weapons. It was a foregone conclusion, in the opinion of the UN itself, that he possesed WMD's; why would he go and destroy them without telling anybody or documenting it? The only answer is that he didn't destroy the programs, he hid it or sold it--he had all the time in the world to do it.
Amen brotha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 08:19 AM
The koran says that islam shall take over the world.
And if ****ers like Saddam is allowed to proceed the development of biological and nuclear weapons, islam will!!!!
You can't reason with extremists, Hell, they volunteer to have explosives strapped to their bodys, and pull the trigger themselves!!, what diplomacy will ever work there???? and allthough people here in denmark is harrasing our prime minister for sending troops to iraq, i'm very pleased he did.
Cause i do not my wife and daughter circumsized, and forced to wear a scarf, and my boy neither.
I do not want to pray to Allah every day, and have ancient laws and ****ed up morale issues reinstated in my country.
So **** the french and all those who want to give Bush a hard time for this war, there was nothing else to do, he did it, and thereby won my respect for having balls.
****'em all.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by THE VIKING
The koran says that islam shall take over the world.
Poor uninformed horn hat, I have read most of the koran, and didn't see that any where in it.:yuk:

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 08:43 AM
I have not read the koran myself, i have this info from an Imam!!!!
My painting company actually did a paint job in a Mosque, complet with goldplating of the half moon and all!!( don't know anbout the spelling on that one), during a 3 week period i had a lot of talks about the religion issue with the imam, and that's what he told me!!!!.
But if you are right, i promise to check my info before posting in the future.
But they want to take over anyway, you know, regardless what the koran says, so it really does'nt matter!!!!

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by THE VIKING
I have not read the koran myself, i have this info from an Imam!!!!
My painting company actually did a paint job in a Mosque, complet with goldplating of the half moon and all!!( don't know anbout the spelling on that one), during a 3 week period i had a lot of talks about the religion issue with the imam, and that's what he told me!!!!.
But if you are right, i promise to check my info before posting in the future.
But they want to take over anyway, you know, regardless what the koran says, so it really does'nt matter!!!!
They want to take over?? humm now that is interesting, could you please explain to me why in 1920 the british invaded and took over the ottoman empire?? and then divided the country and setup puppet gubments??

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 08:49 AM
Yep, they were greedy.
But here the issue is world peace and stopping terrorists.
And if Bush gets some oil too, it's fine with me.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by THE VIKING
Yep, they were greedy.
But here the issue is world peace and stopping terrorists.
And if Bush gets some oil too, it's fine with me.
and you dont think that oppresion lead to this?? just look at the jews and palastiens, they are getting squeezed and are fighting back, but are portraid as terrorists.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
They want to take over?? humm now that is interesting, could you please explain to me why in 1920 the british invaded and took over the ottoman empire?? and then divided the country and setup puppet gubments??
Have to say they have been fighting for years. Dont forget, the Muslims were the FIRST to have a crusade that went through the middle/near east then up through Spain and finally got reversed in France. Thier goal was to conquer and convert. Turks also conquered Greece and surrounding areas in the 1300's. They didnt get booted out for hundreds of years. Hasnt been a one way street, just seems that way from recent events.
And the issue is how far back to you go to honor a cultures historic 'rights'? This is the problem with the Jews, Palestinians, and muslims right now. Do the Jews belong in Israel? werent they there long before anyone else? How far back do you go to give someone thier proper due?
Interesting thing is that few even know why the US backed Israel in the late 40's. At the time it was the only democracy in the region and we were VERY vigilant about keeping communism and the USSR out of the region. Not forcing a country in the region. In fact, recognizing Israel as a country failed in its first attempts here in the US.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
and you dont think that oppresion lead to this?? just look at the jews and palastiens, they are getting squeezed and are fighting back, but are portraid as terrorists.
Doing a suicide bombing at a place or on a bus killing women and children for the express purpose of scaring and imtimidating IS terrorism.
Attacking administrative, military and vital functions of a government is not considered terrorism but guerilla warfare.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Have to say they have been fighting for years. Dont forget, the Muslims were the FIRST to have a crusade that went through the middle/near east then up through Spain and finally got reversed in France. Thier goal was to conquer and convert. Turks also conquered Greece and surrounding areas in the 1300's. They didnt get booted out for hundreds of years. Hasnt been a one way street, just seems that way from recent events.
And the issue is how far back to you go to honor a cultures historic 'rights'? This is the problem with the Jews, Palestinians, and muslims right now. Do the Jews belong in Israel? werent they there long before anyone else? How far back do you go to give someone thier proper due?
Interesting thing is that few even know why the US backed Israel in the late 40's. At the time it was the only democracy in the region and we were VERY vigilant about keeping communism and the USSR out of the region. Not forcing a country in the region. In fact, recognizing Israel as a country failed in its first attempts here in the US.
Well since england set up the jews in what we now know as israel, prior to that they did not have a home land there.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
and you dont think that oppresion lead to this?? just look at the jews and palastiens, they are getting squeezed and are fighting back, but are portraid as terrorists.
The Palestinians are terrorist. Look at who they target....Women, Children, Elderly...They hit the softest targets they can.
Israel needs to complete the wall and let them live in poverty, and kill each other.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 09:47 AM
Kurtis500 beat me to it.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
The Palestinians are terrorist. Look at who they target....Women, Children, Elderly...They hit the softest targets they can.
Israel needs to complete the wall and let them live in poverty, and kill each other.
So when the jews were doing that to the brits to drive them out of the country what did that make them??

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Well since england set up the jews in what we now know as israel, prior to that they did not have a home land there.
Because they had been defeated, routed and expelled from their homeland. Do they have a right to return?

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Because they had been defeated, reouted and expelled from their homeland. Do they have a right to return?
No they weren't that hole dealio was set up by jewish fellow from england that lead a very good campian to set it up.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 09:51 AM
You show me some proof of Jews targeted Women, Children, and Elderly persons, not just here say (sp), and I will debate the issue.
Israel has been one of the best allies the U.S. has ever had.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
No they weren't that hole dealio was set up by jewish fellow from england that lead a very good campian to set it up.
How was it the Jews then left Israel and Jerusalem?

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
How was it the Jews then left Israel and Jerusalem?
the state of israel did not excist prior to england taking the land and declairing it so.
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/index.html
take a peek.

gnarley
12-11-2003, 10:02 AM
MagicMtnDan I said if we leave they win but is it worth the lives of any of our men or women over there? I was only asking is it really worth it? I was all for going over in the very beginning! I just donÂ’t think one of our troops is worth 100 of their fanaticÂ’s, thatÂ’s all. I am very proud of those that have and are serving our military & more so in hostile territory.
Hey everyone is entitled to opinions and I have read the news & watched it on TV since Saddam first tried to invade Kuwait, I am well aware of what we have & havenÂ’t done over there in the last 20 years. Saddam was the worst type of human, killing and torturing his own people & his sons torturing women & raping new brides. Yeah it makes me sick.
I agree something needed to be done, not just about WMDÂ’d but also basic human rights over there. But when will it stop? HavenÂ’t we heard on the news that the original intelligence was flawed & they didnÂ’t really expect so much resistance, among other miscalculations? PLEASE what did they expect the whole country to instantly turn into a democracy overnight? Those people have been fighting each other for thousands of years, thatÂ’s all they know it seems, what makes fighting us any different? Unfortunately it is not just IraqiÂ’s, itÂ’s any of their neighbors who need something to fight about, a reason to continue to fight in their fricken desert.
MagicMtnDan, I donÂ’t take my freedom for granted, do you?
Hypocrites? Really? Seems like our President and his administration is a lot more open and is a lot more clear about their policy than the previous administration was.
I know about France & Russia & the UN & I wasnÂ’t going to bring up past administrations just the current one, and the current one doesnÂ’t have much of a domestic policy, thatÂ’s my opinion, and I feel thatÂ’s why our Economy is in the tank! But since you brought up past administrations IÂ’ll say Clinton didnÂ’t do enough to prevent a buildup and GW senior didnÂ’t finish the job he started! IF GW senior would have finished it instead of walking away we probably wouldnÂ’t be there now!
I wonÂ’t even start on the UN & France except to say the French Government is as crooked as Saddam was & the UN is just about worthless.
How can you expect to deal with the "Iraqis" if all they would have is an unstable government intimidated by a handful of terrorists?!
This is something we must do and do to completion. If we don't, we here will never be safe because the message we send to the world is we go in strong, stay for a short time and come out like pussies with our tails between our legs.
Would those of you against the Iraqi war feel better if there was another terrorist attack on the United States? Do you think that the war in Iraq is unrelated to there not being any attacks on the US since 9/11?
Well I am not against the war, I just would like to get it over soon & not loose anymore of our troops, God bless them all! I hate to say it but 911 wasnÂ’t unexpected, we have had little security for way to long & it is way to easy to get into this country, little was done about it until then, but it is still not enough. Dan I really wonder if the war in Iraq & no recent attacks are connected? I feel that there are or were 2 really bad groups to deal with. Even though Saddam posed a threat & may have helped others who attacked us It was that that piece of SH*T Bin laden & the Al Quida who came here & attacked us.
Originally posted by likwidsukr
Well like I said plenty of times, opinions are like assholes everyones got one!! But I strongly disagree with your whole thought process. "I think" if you do not like someone you can FIND dirt on them and conjer up schemes to demote them. But that is also my opinion, thats made possible by the men and women who are fighting over there, that is why this country is so great!
On a side note I am sick and fu***n tired of these left ass tree-huggin USA haters get the **** out of the COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!! Cuz some of us are proud to be here and to fight for what is right. If not now when????????? Wait untill they get even stronger?
I hope you are not referring to me as an asshole or a friggen tree-hugger? If so right back at ya and I wonÂ’t call you anything else thatÂ’s further demeaning or lower myself to your standards of name calling. We all have the right to think what we want & disagree.
My opinion is having seen the Vietnam war on the news every night growing up that this is no different in many ways. We didnÂ’t do all we could do to win that war & I wonder if we have done all we can do to get this one over as quickly as possible. No matter what we do there will always be madmen and as long as there are the civilized world will never be safe.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 10:11 AM
You can't compare this to Vietnam. We have lost, in this entire conflict, the equivelant to one weeks losses in Vietnam.
You need to stop watching CNN bro...They are a bunch of Communist with skewed coverage.
Talk to some of the guys who are there and you will get the real story.
BTW: Saddam did not "try to invade Kuwait" in 1990, he did.

gnarley
12-11-2003, 10:19 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Havasu Cig
You can't compare this to Vietnam. We have lost, in this entire conflict, the equivelant to one weeks losses in Vietnam.
You need to stop watching CNN bro...They are a bunch of Communist with skewed coverage.
Talk to some of the guys who are there and you will get the real story.
BTW: Saddam did not "try to invade Kuwait" in 1990, he did.
And don't forget Saddam didn't keep Kuwait either, Thats what I meant by tried.
I don't watch CNN if I can help it. By comparing Vietnam to Iraq I am saying war is war. You said "We have lost, in this entire conflict, the equivelant to one weeks losses in Vietnam". You make life sound so trivial.

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 10:23 AM
Look, the Palestinians weren't a country before the State of Israel was created by decree. They were tribes of bedouins. There has never been a state of Palestine; the State of Palestine is a post Israel idea. Besides, the Jews had to defend thier founding in a war after the UN created Israel. But does any of this really matter? The Muslim Arab countries of the Middle East are a disease to this planet. George Bush is wrong when he says fanatics have hi-jacked a good religion--the truth is that the peaceful Muslims have hi-jacked a bad religion. Most Muslims don't want peaceful co-existence with non-muslims. I dare you to find me a Muslim who doesn't hate, litterally hate and wish death on all jews and most christians.
What the Christians did 1,000 years ago is irrelevent. Just becuase Christianity went through a brutal, anti-man period, doesn't mean Muslims can murder and pillage today. Christians were punished by the evils committed in the name of Christ--it was called the Dark Ages! But Christianty turned to Reason--begining with Thomas Aquinas. The rest is history--The Renaissance, the Enlightenment, The Magna Carter, the Declaration of Independence, The Industrial Revolution and The United States of America. Islam cannot be tolerated as exists today because it worships evil and it covets a return to the primeival.
Can anybody count how many Democratic nations exist in the Middle East?
How about how many free nations that respect the property, lives and speech of the individual?
Can anybody

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 10:26 AM
Holy shit, you are right lets ****ing kill everyone that doesn't kneel to the christian horseshit, the same people that are out to save the world and **** as many kids in the ass as they can??

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 10:31 AM
Holy shit, you are right lets ****ing kill everyone that doesn't kneel to the christian horseshit, the same people that are out to save the world and **** as many kids in the ass as they can??
Wow!!!...wrong answer.

THE VIKING
12-11-2003, 10:55 AM
Now look, i don't care about the palestinians or the jews or who the **** is out there thinking that religion is a thing that come in handy every time they want a piece of land or vice versa.
There has always been conflicts in the world, But this saddam dude is a dangerous man, and i am glad he was removed.
And there will never be peace in the world as long as Oil, Religion and women without bra's exist.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by gnarley
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Havasu Cig
You can't compare this to Vietnam. We have lost, in this entire conflict, the equivelant to one weeks losses in Vietnam.
You need to stop watching CNN bro...They are a bunch of Communist with skewed coverage.
Talk to some of the guys who are there and you will get the real story.
BTW: Saddam did not "try to invade Kuwait" in 1990, he did.
And don't forget Saddam didn't keep Kuwait either, Thats what I meant by tried.
I don't watch CNN if I can help it. By comparing Vietnam to Iraq I am saying war is war. You said "We have lost, in this entire conflict, the equivelant to one weeks losses in Vietnam". You make life sound so trivial.
I fought in the first war in 91, and we lost good people in my unit so I don't think life is trivial. Sometimes you have to fight to stay free and keep your people safe.
My dad, and several of his friends fought in Vietnam. You should talk to some vets and get the facts.
Did you serve????

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 11:06 AM
Can anybody count how many Democratic nations exist in the Middle East?
How about how many free nations that respect the property, lives and speech of the individual?
Okay, I'll answer my own question.
ANSWER: There is only one democratic nation in the Middle East: Israel. Iraq will be the second; or third if you care to put Afghanistan into this discussion. And in Israel, Palestinians have the right to vote and hold office--and they do. Israelis and Christians are violently persecuted in everyother Muslim nation; with most Middle East nations making it a crime punishable by death for converting to Christianity.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Can anybody count how many Democratic nations exist in the Middle East?
How about how many free nations that respect the property, lives and speech of the individual?
Okay, I'll answer my own question.
ANSWER: There is only one democratic nation in the Middle East: Israel. Iraq will be the second; or third if you care to put Afghanistan into this discussion. And in Israel, Palestinians have the right to vote and hold office--and they do. Israelis and Christians are violently persecuted in everyother Muslim nation; with most Middle East nations making it a crime punishable by death for converting to Christianity.
So that is why there is a christian group in iraq?? and some in iran??
Under the regime of Saddam Hussein, Christians had been allowed to peacefully conduct such business without fear. Under U.S. and British liberation, many Christians are closing their shops or switching to other merchandise. Church officials have also been attacked. His Grace, Bishop Mar Adai of the Assyrian Church of the East was attacked on the streets of Baghdad. His assailants wanted to steal his gold cross from around his neck.
care to comment on this?

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 11:17 AM
What left wing Comminust web site did you get that $hit from...
You can take any incident and make it sound bad...
Who is doing the attacking????
When did these incidents happen?????
The coalition is still trying to gain control and provide security in the country. They are doing a great job, unless you watch CNN.
:rolleyes:

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
What left wing Comminust web site did you get that $hit from...
You can take any incident and make it sound bad...
Who is doing the attacking????
When did these incidents happen?????
The coalition is still trying to gain control and provide security in the country. They are doing a great job, unless you watch CNN.
:rolleyes:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/chancy3.html

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
So that is why there is a christian group in iraq?? and some in iran??
Under the regime of Saddam Hussein, Christians had been allowed to peacefully conduct such business without fear. Under U.S. and British liberation, many Christians are closing their shops or switching to other merchandise. Church officials have also been attacked. His Grace, Bishop Mar Adai of the Assyrian Church of the East was attacked on the streets of Baghdad. His assailants wanted to steal his gold cross from around his neck.
care to comment on this?
Dude, are you trying to tell me that Christians were better off with Saddam, hahahahahahahaha! Saddam wasn't a Islamic tyrant; he brutally oppressed everyone!!!
Are you telling me that Christians are safe in the Middle East? They're only allowed to communicate with eachother, murdering Christian is like killing a mouse, Jews are non-existent in these countries.
You're a typical Lib--uninformed, ignorant of the facts and unwilling to ever answer questions or face facts given to you. You're a joke. I'm still laughing at your thinking that Christians were better off with Saddam. Were Jews better off with Hitler? Hahahaha. How funny.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Dude, are you trying to tell me that Christians were better off with Saddam, hahahahahahahaha! Saddam wasn't a Islamic tyrant; he brutally oppressed everyone!!!
Are you telling me that Christians are safe in the Middle East? They're only allowed to communicate with eachother, murdering Christian is like killing a mouse, Jews are non-existent in these countries.
You're a typical Lib--uninformed, ignorant of the facts and unwilling to ever answer questions or face facts given to you. You're a joke. I'm still laughing at your thinking that Christians were better off with Saddam. Were Jews better off with Hitler? Hahahaha. How funny.
Yup, uninformed thats me, funny you just said that there were NO christians in the middle east and I found some info that proves there were and still are, if that makes me uninformed then so be it. Lib??? nope dont play the politic game, I am able to think for myself and dont need someone to tell me what I should think about issues.

rrrr
12-11-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
You show me some proof of Jews targeted Women, Children, and Elderly persons, not just here say (sp), and I will debate the issue.
Israel has been one of the best allies the U.S. has ever had.
Well, former Prime Minister and Nobel Peace Prize winner Menachem Begin was certainly a terrorist. He masterminded the destruction of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946. The explosion killed 91 people.
Begin and his buds are the ones that sowed the first seeds of terrorism.
Before anyone accuses me, I'm not antisemetic. I'm antistupid ****ers that don't deserve the support (and tax dollars) of the United States.
King David Hotel info (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_of_the_king_david_hotel.htm)

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by rrrr
Well, former Prime Minister and Nobel Peace Prize winner Menachem Begin was certainly a terrorist. He masterminded the destruction of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946. The explosion killed 91 people.
Begin and his buds are the ones that sowed the first seeds of terrorism.
Before anyone accuses me, I'm not antisemetic. I'm antistupid ****ers that don't deserve the support (and tax dollars) of the United States.
King David Hotel info (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/bombing_of_the_king_david_hotel.htm)
DING;)

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:04 PM
Let me take a quote from the front of your article and see what it is defined as.
The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division.
Again, attacking military and infrastructure targets is considered guerilla warfare.
Attacking innocent children and women to frighten or intimidate is TERRORISM.
Plain and simple.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:06 PM
In addition, I am not saying what they did is the right thing to do. However, it is important that the words used are defined correctly when made in accusation.

gnarley
12-11-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
I fought in the first war in 91, and we lost good people in my unit so I don't think life is trivial. Sometimes you have to fight to stay free and keep your people safe.
My dad, and several of his friends fought in Vietnam. You should talk to some vets and get the facts.
Did you serve????
No I did not serve, my respect to you. There was no draft or even registration when I got out of School in the mid 70's, my hat goes out to all that have served either voluntary or drafted. IÂ’ve had many Vietnam vets as friends and talked about it & had a friend that helped take Iwo Jima. I have heard many personal stories of war and seen how it has affected some who I have known.

gnarley
12-11-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by rrrr
I'm antistupid ****ers that don't deserve the support (and tax dollars) of the United States.
I'll second you on that one!
Personally I'm tired of supporting many other countries, and for what??? We could better spend some of that money at home I think.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
I'll second you on that one!
Personally I'm tired of supporting many other countries, and for what??? We could better spend some of that money at home I think.
Thats right. There are plenty from other countries here in the US that need free tax dollar support.;)

rrrr
12-11-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Let me take a quote from the front of your article and see what it is defined as.
Again, attacking military and infrastructure targets is considered guerilla warfare.
Attacking innocent children and women to frighten or intimidate is TERRORISM.
Plain and simple.
A hotel is military infrastructure? There were clerks, maids, waiters, cooks, and guests among the dead.
If the building is 100% military with no civilians involved I could agree with your point.
(groan) I keep promising myself I won't get dragged into these kinds of threads LOL

gnarley
12-11-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Thats right. There are plenty from other countries here in the US that need free tax dollar support.;)
ThatÂ’s funny, NOT... :mad: lets close the gates & take care of them now that we've let them in. :mad:
Who's going to close the gates? Homeland security??? There's an oxymoron, kind of like military intelligence.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by rrrr
A hotel is military infrastructure? There were clerks, maids, waiters, cooks, and guests among the dead.
If the building is 100% military with no civilians involved I could agree with your point.
(groan) I keep promising myself I won't get dragged into these kinds of threads LOL
It most certainly is and was. Let me quote your source again just so there is no confusion.
The King David Hotel was the site for the British Military Command in Palestine. It also served as the headquarters of the British Criminal Investigation Division.
What was attacked was the institution. Not a cook or waiter. A few of the palestinians are attacking innocent people. Do you see them as terrorists?

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
ThatÂ’s funny, NOT... :mad: lets close the gates & take care of them now that we've let them in. :mad:
Who's going to close the gates? Homeland security??? There's an oxymoron, kind of like military intelligence.
I dont think anyone is going to.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
It most certainly is and was. Let me quote your source again just so there is no confusion.
What was attacked was the institution. Not a cook or waiter. A few of the palestinians are attacking innocent people. Do you see them as terrorists?
And leveling houses and taking land for settlements is what?

Kilrtoy
12-11-2003, 12:33 PM
Isreal respects other nations and their LAND
Ok what DID I miss and when did they start doing that......:confused:

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
And leveling houses and taking land for settlements is what?
Define terrorism to me please.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
And leveling houses and taking land for settlements is what?
In addition to this, do you know why the Israelis claimed that land that thier settlements are now on?

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Define terrorism to me please.
To me coming into an area that you have no right to, and throwing someone off the land they have owned and has been in the family for many generations leveling the house forcing these people to live in refuge camps, (you have heard about those right?) and taking over is terroism to me.
Tell me this if you were in their shoes what would you do?? you like your house no? like what you own? if someone came in and told you to get the **** out and took it for some religous reasons would you be pissed?? would you enjoy getting cramed into a camp??

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
In addition to this, do you know why the Israelis claimed that land that thier settlements are now on?
Because it is their devine right??

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 01:03 PM
Bro, The heading on the site you pulled the above information reads:
LewRockwell.com
"The Anti-War, Anti-State, Pro-Market News Site."
It is filled with a bunch of $hit. One of the stories says the Brithish are worst Terrorist than Al Queda. Tell me you really don't believe this crap:rolleyes:

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Let me take a quote from the front of your article and see what it is defined as.
Again, attacking military and infrastructure targets is considered guerilla warfare.
Attacking innocent children and women to frighten or intimidate is TERRORISM.
Plain and simple.
Exactly;)

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
Bro, The heading on the site you pulled the above information reads:
LewRockwell.com
"The Anti-War, Anti-State, Pro-Market News Site."
It is filled with a bunch of $hit. One of the stories says the Brithish are worst Terrorist than Al Queda. Tell me you really don't believe this crap:rolleyes:
I used that to prove a point that there are christians in irag, never seen it before dont read it.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
To me coming into an area that you have no right to, and throwing someone off the land they have owned and has been in the family for many generations leveling the house forcing these people to live in refuge camps, (you have heard about those right?) and taking over is terroism to me.
Tell me this if you were in their shoes what would you do?? you like your house no? like what you own? if someone came in and told you to get the **** out and took it for some religous reasons would you be pissed?? would you enjoy getting cramed into a camp??
Much of the land the Palestinians live on was captured by israel during the 6 day war in 1967.
Israel was attacked after they were made a state in 1948 by 5 Arab countries. They lost the war because they were not affective in the strategy.
I think you can trace the palestinian problems back to the 1948 war, and the threat Israel has faced from it's neighbors since.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
Much of the land the Palestinians live on was captured by israel during the 6 day war in 1967.
Israel was attacked after they were made a state in 1948 by 5 Arab countries. They lost the war because they were not affective in the strategy.
I think you can trace the palestinian problems back to the 1948 war, and the threat Israel has faced from it's neighbors since.
I would think so, having another country come in and take land to give to someone else would piss me off too.

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
I used that to prove a point that there are christians in irag, never seen it before dont read it.
One of Saddam's top people was an Iraqi Christian. The problem is that Saddam ruled with an Iron fist, and being that the Sunni's were the minority in the country, he never let the Shiites get any control. Therefor the radical Muslims could not persecute other Muslims, Christians ect...Iraq was basically a secular country under saddam.
Right now there is a vacuum in the country since Saddam was toppled, but the coalition forces are trying,and succeeding, in securing the country.

gnarley
12-11-2003, 01:28 PM
Can't We All Just get along???
Lets Go Boatin & have a Beer!

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
I would think so, having another country come in and take land to give to someone else would piss me off too.
How far back do you want to go....The Israelites (sp) were there thousands of years ago,

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
To me coming into an area that you have no right to, and throwing someone off the land they have owned and has been in the family for many generations leveling the house forcing these people to live in refuge camps, (you have heard about those right?) and taking over is terroism to me.
Do you agree that this happened to the jews in numerous cases over history in the land of Israel? Do you think they should have thier homes and land back that was once thiers long before this confilct ever defined itself?
Tell me this if you were in their shoes what would you do?? you like your house no? like what you own? if someone came in and told you to get the **** out and took it for some religous reasons would you be pissed?? would you enjoy getting cramed into a camp?? [/B]
Lets see, the Greeks, Romans, Muslims, and Crusaders have all done it to the jews in Israel. Do you think they are owed anything for it? Ancient Jewish Israel pre-dates the Palestinians and all the above, so who do you think has the RIGHT to the land?
Even as complicated as this is already its only a portion of the problems between the two groups.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Because it is their devine right??
Do you know about the arab-Israeli wars?

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by gnarley
Can't We All Just get along???
Lets Go Boatin & have a Beer!
We're getting along fine, just having some interesting conversaton as long as no one takes it personal and gets nasty we can chat, I enjoy this as it gets old talking about football at work.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Do you know about the arab-Israeli wars?
Yes, but that was after the fact.
Sure germany tried to get rid of them, along with russia but I dont see where a religion grants you the right to a chunk of land??
If that were the case why cant I take some land because of my beliefes??

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 01:44 PM
I actually enjoy this conversation a lot. I went to ASU for my philosophy degree and took a couple history classes on the 'Modern Middle East' for just this reason, to understand what is/was going on a little better than what the media tells us.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Yes, but that was after the fact.
Sure germany tried to get rid of them, along with russia but I dont see where a religion grants you the right to a chunk of land??
If that were the case why cant I take some land because of my beliefes??
Israel was attacked by arab nations and DEFEATED them in a war. They then took the invaders land and built settlements on them. Hence the issue about getting back to the pre-1967 borders and the settlements as 'illegal' to palestinians and 'legal' to jews. the land they took were outside the borders given to Israel by the UN.

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Israel was attacked by arab nations and DEFEATED them in a war. They then took the invaders land and built settlements on them. Hence the issue about getting back to the pre-1967 borders and the settlements as 'illegal' to palestinians and 'legal' to jews. the land they took were outside the borders given to Israel by the UN.
And why did they attack? to drive the occupiers of the land that was taken out, I am refiring to the state of israel.

uclahater
12-11-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Infomaniac
It is unfortunate that our sons and daughters are over there. But as mentioned, we take the fight to the terrorists on their land so we do not have to fight them on our land. And some day that will happen if they are not dealt with ASAP. Sadam is in on terrorism
Did you read this certificate sent to me by my daughter? Along with the flag she flew over the air base?
http://marineassault.net/flag1.JPG
I think this about somes it up Thanks Infomaniac:D

Seadog
12-11-2003, 02:12 PM
If you want to call the Israelis invaders, then you will have to call all Americans invaders. Forget the Indians, they took over from earlier inhabitants. No person really owns the land. They have possession until it is taken by force, law or coercion.
There is a vacuum of power in Iraq right now. You have Iran backed Shiites that are trying to gain control by exploiting their religion and tribalism. The smart thing would have been to go in there and blast every living thing. Stomp out any attempts to come across the borders and then rebuild the entire country. Not a very practical solution and that is what the terrorist count on. We have to follow our humanitarian ethos, while the terrorists have no ethics. They kill to create chaos. They blowup to deny comfort and peace to the public. Muslim radicals do not want any peace. They want global domination by a select few. They appeal to the cruel and hateful. There is no difference between them and the Brown Boots.
The U.S. had was big on having no military and ignoring the woes of the world from 1920 -1940. If Japan had not directly attacked at Pearl Harbor, WWII could have had a different ending. The radicals realize that they cannot out power us with conventional war, so they choose to attack those who cannot be protected.

Kurtis500
12-11-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
And why did they attack? to drive the occupiers of the land that was taken out, I am refiring to the state of israel.
Again,
Do you agree that this happened to the jews in numerous cases over history in the land of Israel? Do you think they should have thier homes and land back that was once thiers long before this confilct ever defined itself?

Blown 472
12-11-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Kurtis500
Again,
Do you agree that this happened to the jews in numerous cases over history in the land of Israel? Do you think they should have thier homes and land back that was once thiers long before this confilct ever defined itself?
You are telling me prior to england setting up the state of israel they were there, left and now came back to claim what was once theirs due to opression found in other countries?? if I understand you correctly.

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Yup, uninformed thats me, funny you just said that there were NO christians in the middle east and I found some info that proves there were and still are, if that makes me uninformed then so be it. Lib??? nope dont play the politic game, I am able to think for myself and dont need someone to tell me what I should think about issues.
Okay, I was out for a little while and I've missed alot. First, Blown 472, I never said there were no Christians in Iraq. I said that Saddam was an equal opportunity oppressor. Did you know that Tarriq Aziz was Christian? He was Saddam's Deputy Prime Minister.
There are christians all over the Middle East; don't get caught doing the wrong thing though if you are, and don't ever get caught socializing or fratranizing with a Christian if you're Muslim--Death is the penalty for the last. There are not Jews all over the Middle East--only Israel.
Now, back to some of your guy's arguments about Palestine. The Palestinians were bedouins who lived in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudia Arabia along with the West Bank, Gaza and other parts of what is now Israel. These "refugee" camps that exist in the Middle East are located mainly in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. They've been there for 35 years since the 1968 war. The Palestinians living in these camps are not welcome in Jordan, Lebanon or Syria because these governments don't want them assimilated into thier country. Furthermore, the Palestinians in these camps, who have lived there for 35 years, don't want to become citizens of these other countries--they won't even let the UN build permanent housing in these camps. The Palestinians who were roaming bedouins before 1948 will only accept a full removal of all Jews from the region or nothing at all. This is not an issue about the Palestinians being kicked off "thier" land; they were living in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and what is now Israel before, it's an anti-Jewish thing now. The Palestinians are being used by the other Arab countries in the region as a pawn becuase for one, they don't want the Palestinians in thier country and two because they seek the destruction of Israeal--the only democratic state in the Middle East.
Now, we must support Israel. The world is too small of a place to let evil run amuck. You help protect your freinds from evil because what kind of a world would exist where free, innocent people can be slaughtered because "it's not our problem"? Wrong, protecting the free is our problem. We're the experiment that proved freedom could work, freedom is the most important value there is and it must be protected, life isn't worth living if you're not free and, besides, what makes anybody think that allowing evil to grow is a way to protect yourself in the long run? We support Israel because they're capitalist and they're free. We kill terrorists and we oppose countries like Iran, North Korea, the former Soviet Union, Syria and the Palestinians because they seek the destruction of our way of life and those who would defend it.

Miss BK
12-11-2003, 05:08 PM
Who ever said there are many Christians in Iraq was right.
My mom was even corresponding with a Christian group who were completing a Christian pilgrimage to the final destination: Baghdad.
The date of arrival was the same date as the start of the war.
http://www.cin.org/archives/cineast/200303/0194.html
Friday, March 21, 2003
Iraq's Catholics to Consecrate Iraq to the Immaculate Heart of Mary
A solemn consecration of Iraq to the Virgin Mary by all the patriarchs and bishops of Iraq will be held in the Cathedral of St. Joseph, before the statue of the Pilgrim Virgin, "Queen of Peace". Christian people of Iraq turn toward the Virgin Mary to beg for God's help, certain that the mother of God never leaves her children without aid.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Remember, back in the 1980's Reagan and the USA were friends with Saddam and proud that he was a secular leader. Secular - meaning friendly to most religions, including Chrisitianity, which goes against fundamental Islam and makes Saddam an Infidel.
Being secular angered the radical muslims of the south - the Shiites. They especially hated things like the Christian Sisters of Charity of Mother Teresa convents in Baghdad where they take care of the sick and impoverished. Also, the Vatican has an Embassy in Baghdad and its celebrations are attended by Muslims as well.
Here is a list of over 50 Christian churches in Baghdad alone. Most were built during Saddams rule of Iraq.
List of Christian Churches in Baghdad - Iraq
http://www.chaldeansonline.net/church/christian.html
But sadly, once the fundamentalists of the south saw that Saddam was gone and lost their fear of Saddam, these churches became a dangerous place to be.
Before you call me Liberal, know that I am extremely pro-life and a Christian. And I've been following Christianity in Iraq for quite some time. It wasn't the best with Saddam, for sure, but at least the Islamic fundamentalists could not prevent them from going to church, like they are doing today.
And the fear I have is that the USA will eventually force this Iraqi majority into becoming a secular country again like it was with Saddam - and it will be very long war ....and very bloody.

MagicMtnDan
12-11-2003, 05:22 PM
Blown and others, please don't turn this thread into a discussion about Israeli "terror" against the Palestinians. You have mentioned the King David Hotel - that was an event which was back in 1949!
It's clear that there are significant differences between the Israelis and the Palestinians. We could go on for days about this subject. But do not make the mistake of comparing Israel to a terrorist state - if you do that you will expose yourself and your beliefs.
As soon as the Palestinian people are allowed to decide their freedom rather than a terrorist and multi-millionaire (billionaire?) named Yasser Arafat, then there can be peace in the middle east. As soon as the Palestinians announce that they truly believe that Israel has the right to exist and they act like they believe it then there can be peace in the middle east. As soon as the Palestinians stop killing innocent women, children, men and Arabs in their terrorist attacks then there can be peace in the middle east.
Until then Israel will continue to defend itself against an aggressor "nation" with every ounce of effort it can. And do not confuse Israel's willpower with that of this country. They have the resolve to see things through to the end. Unlike this country, their very survival is at stake and they cannot afford to have the left-wing liberals take their country down the wrong path.

JakeAisA
12-11-2003, 05:35 PM
Miss BK:
The problem with Saddam wasn't his secularism, it was that he was a tryant. Iraq was a dictatorship. What is needed is a secular republic like ours. See, you're afraid of something that is dependent on another factor--rights. You can have freedom of religion when rights are protected and you have a country of laws; there are no rights when a country is a theocratic dictatorship. When you remove the religion from the dictatorship, you still have a dictatorship. Christians are under attack now in Iraq because there is no government. It's not because the government is a secular government. That doesn't make sense.
What Iraq needs is a government of laws, not of men; a country where rights are protected and the violators of rights are punished. Only a secular government, like ours in the US, can do that.
Christians were not persecuted in Iraq under Saddam for being Christian, they were persecuted for other reasons, like the rest of the Iraqi population. It's like saying that Gay Jews weren't exterminated by Hitler because they were Gay; no, but they were still exterminated.

Miss BK
12-11-2003, 05:50 PM
So, do you think that Saddam ( as well as the world ) would have been better off had he allowed a democracy and the radical muslims of the south would have taken over Iraq ?
Or would you have rather he not dictated and held elections as we know them, so that the radicals would regain power, like Iran and their other neighbors ?
After the fall of Saddam, one of the first things that disappeared in Iraq were the liquor stores - they were burned down. Men who sold Hollywood video tapes in their stores were killed by the radicals.
The radical muslims couldn't be more pleased - they have lost a huge foe; Saddam. This is what the rest of the world was warning us about. This is what they meant by "releasing a can of worms".

likwidsukr
12-11-2003, 05:58 PM
I hope you are not referring to me as an asshole or a friggen tree-hugger? If so right back at ya and I wonÂ’t call you anything else thatÂ’s further demeaning or lower myself to your standards of name calling. We all have the right to think what we want & disagree. [/B]
gnarley:
Was I I don't know are you guilty. If you are then why should you be ashamed?.......... BTW I was not calling you an asshole. Read it again. It basically says that we all have opinions and that is my opinion.>Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one<
So about the tree hugger attribute yes you sound that way to me , My opinion. As I know a few myself. So nothing personel suck it up and Move on I have..........Thats Right

likwidsukr
12-11-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
We're getting along fine, just having some interesting conversaton as long as no one takes it personal and gets nasty we can chat, I enjoy this as it gets old talking about football at work.
Nothing personal here. Just opinions. Interesting thread!!!!!

Havasu Cig
12-11-2003, 06:06 PM
I can't believe you would think that Iraq was better off with Saddam.
He was a dangerous, brutal dictatorthat not only threatened his own people and neighboring countries, but our national security as well.
When Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990, and threatened an invasion of saudi Arabia he was in a position to control a large portion of the worlds oil supplies. We could not allow that to happen, and so we used military force to drive him from Kuwait and protect Saudi Arabia.
After the first Gulf War Saddam began supporting terrorist. The liberals don't like to acknowledge this, but it is a documented fact. After the attack on 09/11 this could not be allowed to continue and we find ourselves in the position we are now in.
The reason we supported Iraq in the 80's was because he was the lesser of two evils at the time. Iran was a much greater threat, and Saddam kept the balance of power from shifting to them. This is also one of the reasons we left him in power after the 91 war.

Miss BK
12-11-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
The reason we supported Iraq in the 80's was because he was the lesser of two evils at the time. Iran was a much greater threat, and Saddam kept the balance of power from shifting to them. This is also one of the reasons we left him in power after the 91 war.
Saddam is still the lesser of two evils. There are three main factions in Iraq and none of them will tolerate each other. You have the Kurds of the north, the radical Shiite majority to the south, and Saddam's Sunni's of Baghdad. It was Saddam who kept Iraq under control, and yes, he used brute force to accomplish that. He really had no other viable option. Remember, all prior change in Presidency in Iraq before Saddam, was done by assassination. Iraq has long been a nasty place, but this was kept under control during Saddam's strict reign.
But anyone who decides to take control of Iraq is going to face the same problems as these --- and they grow larger each day as these forces finally feel the allowance of more and more freedom. The civil war to come is inevitable.
It's too late to reverse our strategy now. The destabilization has begun. We are now having to learn this lesson the hard way and pray to God our guys stay safe.

Havasu Cig
12-12-2003, 07:49 AM
Lets just say we disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion thanks to the sacfrifice those guys are making there every day.:cool:

Blown 472
12-12-2003, 08:03 AM
[
Now, we must support Israel. The world is too small of a place to let evil run amuck. You help protect your freinds from evil because what kind of a world would exist where free, innocent people can be slaughtered because "it's not our problem"? Wrong, protecting the free is our problem. We're the experiment that proved freedom could work, freedom is the most important value there is and it must be protected, life isn't worth living if you're not free and, besides, what makes anybody think that allowing evil to grow is a way to protect yourself in the long run? We support Israel because they're capitalist and they're free. We kill terrorists and we oppose countries like Iran, North Korea, the former Soviet Union, Syria and the Palestinians because they seek the destruction of our way of life and those who would defend it. [/B]
Tell me what tangable return on our/my money do we get from them?? what did they do to stop 9/11 or any of the other bombings around the world to our interestes??

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Miss BK
So, do you think that Saddam ( as well as the world ) would have been better off had he allowed a democracy and the radical muslims of the south would have taken over Iraq ?
Or would you have rather he not dictated and held elections as we know them, so that the radicals would regain power, like Iran and their other neighbors ?
After the fall of Saddam, one of the first things that disappeared in Iraq were the liquor stores - they were burned down. Men who sold Hollywood video tapes in their stores were killed by the radicals.
The radical muslims couldn't be more pleased - they have lost a huge foe; Saddam. This is what the rest of the world was warning us about. This is what they meant by "releasing a can of worms".
Miss BK, what you're describing is law-less-ness, not democracy. You're describing anarchy; Iraq is essentially in anarchy right now. A democratic republic has laws based on the protection of individual rights and propert, police to enforce these laws and a judicial system to punish violators and settle civil disputes. None of this is currently in place in Iraq, the whole point of what we're doing there right now is to create a government where there now is none. It's really basic, actually. Think about it, let's assume you're whole neighborhood hated you because you drive a black car and not a white car like everyone else. We're talking about America now, this example takes place current day America. Can your neighbors firebomb your house if they wanted to? Could they destroy your business? Does it matter how wrong you are, if you are wrong, that you drive a black car? Does it matter how many people agree with those who drive white cars? Does it matter how badly the two sides hate eachother? Is there anything they can do to you? Without having to face the consequences? And in America, a democratic republic whose foundation is laws, not the whims of men, even if the police, judges and juries all drove white cars, the system would work automatically and they'd protect your right to drive a black car and they'd punish anybody who took unlawful action against you or your property. Don't confuse the issue by assuming law and order cannot work with muslims and non-muslims. It is the basic requirement of all human life and in Iraq, there currently is none, but what was there before, was definately worse.

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Tell me what tangable return on our/my money do we get from them?? what did they do to stop 9/11 or any of the other bombings around the world to our interestes??
When you help your neighbor down the street from being attacked by the hoodlems around the corner who have just murdered his women and children, you don't ask what return on your investment you're going to get with the money you give him to fight back. But, if you really think about it in terms of value, then isn't the value protected by helping the innocent from evil? Aren't the lives of innocent women and children who are being targeted by savage homicide bombers worth trying to save? No? Well, what about the value of your family and freinds? These people kill Jews because they're over there. Once the Jews are dead, they'll need someone else to blame thier lack of food, shelter and prosperity. These people are destroyers, not peaceful capitalizes like us. They destroy while we create. They won't know what to do when they run out of victims, they don't know how to create, they will turn to us, like many already have, as their next worthy target once the Jews are gone.
But, if you want to talk dollars only, which is fairly insane when we're talking about human life, but let's do it anyway. How much do you think we've given Israel in the last 20 years? A couple of billion a year? 20 Billion a year? How much destruction, in dollars, do you think the World Trade Center and Pentagon was? How about the next one if we don't stamp out this evil now.
You're wrong in terms of $, but that's irrelevent because you cannot put a price tag on 3,000 American lives lost.

Seadog
12-12-2003, 11:54 AM
It is easy to walk thru a group of armed citizens. Bush did it during thanksgiving and in a country that has lots of radicals that would kill him or any other american given a chance. I don't see Saddam making public speeches now. How many cubans rally for Castro while plotting to leave? If you know that you can be killed or tortured just for critcising the leadership or government of your country, you are going to be very patriotic, at least in public. We are not patriotic because of fear, we are patriotic because of love of our country.

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 12:08 PM
There are three major groups of Iraqs: the Kurds in the North, the Sunnis in the center portion of Iraq, and the Shiites in the South.
After WWI, the British basically drew lines in the sand to create countries where before there were none. Nation states were a foreign concept to the Arabs before the 20th Century. They were basically tribal with some Kingdoms. Boundaries were loose and organized governments were basically non-existent. Have you seen the movie Lawrence of Arabia? I highly recommend you see this movie because it's about this whole subject. These tribes used to fight one another all the time over water and terrority. The British felt the Middle East was dangerous and after the Ottoman Empire was destroyed they came up with the idea of creating nation states in the Middle East that would be created with boundaries and peoples that were from different tribes but forced to liver under the same government. They essentially created lines in the sand with no rhyme or reason to it except that they wanted some tribes to be forced to live under the same government with tribes they had issues with. Why? Because they hoped the internal bickering would keep these new countries impotent and thus weak--they didn't want any effective countries that could pose a threat like the Ottoman Empire in the North of of the Arabian Peninsula/Southern Europe was. This is why you have the Kurds, the Sunnis and Shiittes in Iraq under one "Iraq"...they all hate each other. This is why you have so many waring tribes in Afghanistan. This is why you have Pakistan that is half Muslim, half Hindu. These countries are chaotic and explosive because that was the design from the very begining.
Now, back to Saddam--he was Sunni. He gassed the Kurds in the 80's and he wared with Iran--mostly Shiitte Muslim like the Shiites in the South of Iraq. If you were Sunni, Saddam was much less oppressive towards you then he was the Kurds and the Shiittes. Baghdad is located in the heart of the "Sunni Triangle" but is populated by mainly Shiites and Sunnis. The pictures you see of Saddam in crouds are pictures of Saddam with Sunnis or they're in the city of Tigrit, which is also Sunni. These former tribes mostly only associate and worship with eachother. You cannot think of the people as Iraqi's, but rather as Kurds, Sunnis and Shiittes--the term Iraqi is defined enough and doesn't tell you the whole story. Saddam was brutal to the Kurds and the Shiitte. The mass graves found in Iraq are filled with Shiittes and Kurds, not Sunnis. And the pictures of Saddam with "the people" are pictures of Saddam with Sunnis--not the other two tribal groups.

totenhosen
12-12-2003, 02:51 PM
If you guys want to talk to some Muslims than I invite you over to Omanforum.com
To say that there aren't Christians in the Middle East is laughable. There are even large populations of Christians in palenstine, Jordan Egypt etc. Some of you guys are letting teh radicals of Islam dictate to you what Islam is. It would be like an Arab letting Jimmy Swaggart or David Duke tell him what Christianity is.

Havasu Cig
12-12-2003, 02:55 PM
The terrorist attacking our people and way of life are Muslims, radical yes, but still a fact.
Their fellow Muslims should stand up against this, but you don't see that happening. They spend all their time defending the religion instead of taking care of the problems that exist in it. My.02

totenhosen
12-12-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
The terrorist attacking our people and way of life are Muslims, radical yes, but still a fact.
Their fellow Muslims should stand up against this, but you don't see that happening. They spend all their time defending the religion instead of taking care of the problems that exist in it. My.02
and I see radical Christian groups bombing abortion clinics and I don't hear about Christian groups standing up against these people.
There are Muslims denoucing people that are terrorists but their voices are not as loud. Its much easier for the media to protray all Muslims as American hating when its not entirely the truth. have your buddies that are in Iraq right now tell you how grateful some of those Muslim people are.
There is always two sides to the story. Like they say the winners write HIS-Story.

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by totenhosen
and I see radical Christian groups bombing abortion clinics and I don't hear about Christian groups standing up against these people.
There are Muslims denoucing people that are terrorists but their voices are not as loud. Its much easier for the media to protray all Muslims as American hating when its not entirely the truth. have your buddies that are in Iraq right now tell you how grateful some of those Muslim people are.
There is always two sides to the story. Like they say the winners write HIS-Story.
You can count on one hand how many "radical christian groups" in the last five years have bombed abortion clinics. Care to count how many terrorist attacks have occured in the past five years by Muslim radicals? I don't think you want to go down this road. Don't compare Islam to Christianity. Christianity's problems were solved hundreds of years ago; Islam's is worsening.
Besides, every major Christian leader and organization completely and loudly denounces attacks like your example suggests. What major Christian leader didn't denounce bombing abortion clinics? You can't name any becuase they all distance themselves as far as possible from these guys who kill in the name of Christianity. But, how many major Muslim clerics, outside of the US, have denounced 911 and the terrrorist activities of those who kill in the name of Alah? You can't find one! There isn't one Muslim cleric in the Middle East who has ever denounced 911, Al Quada or the Palestinian terrorists!!! Not one single cleric can be quoted. In fact, the only thing these clerics have ever said about 911 is supportive! When Jews and Americans die, Muslims in the Middle East dance in the streets and pass out candy. When an abortion clinic is attacked by a "christian radical", ALL Christian Leaders come out and publicly denounce the attack, the person responsible, the idea and they publicly mourn for the victims. You cannot say this of ANY Muslim Cleric in the Middle East. Don't compare the two.
I am not Christian, but I know the difference between good and evil. Islam is an evil religion; it's crippling to it's followers and deadly to it's enemies. Christianity is a religion that preaches kindness to all (even Muslims), charity and peace. When it comes to religions, it's harder to find a better example of a bad religion then Islam; and Christianity is the best the concept of religion has to offer.

gnarley
12-12-2003, 03:40 PM
The problem with the Middle East seems as though all they want to do is fight & kill and have been doing it for thousands of years. You can't stop them by taking out the Clerics though that would be a good start but another Cleric would take his place and continue preaching the same hatred rhetoric, it never ends.

totenhosen
12-12-2003, 03:40 PM
WOW all I can say is you have no clue as to the true meaning of Islam. You listen to the word of the radicals and take it as the be all end all of Islam. Like I said that is like listening to David Duke for Christanity. Go research for yourself instead of what you hear people spouting on the radio.

gnarley
12-12-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by totenhosen
WOW all I can say is you have no clue as to the true meaning of Islam. You listen to the word of the radicals and take it as the be all end all of Islam. Like I said that is like listening to David Duke for Christanity. Go research for yourself instead of what you hear people spouting on the radio.
When I start hearing the Clerics denouncing killings and attacks I will change my mind, but until then call a spade a spade ;)

Havasu Cig
12-12-2003, 04:02 PM
I met several Muslims in Saudi Arabia and Iraq when I was there in 90-91.
The Saudis were happy because we were saving there asses from being invaded by Iraq, and the Iraqis that we did not kill were happy for that. They still did not particulary like us though.
Even though the Saudis were glad we were protecting them, they still were not tolerate our religious beliefs.
We were told that we could not have any religious symbols (crosses, St. Christopher medals ect..) visible on our person at any time.
Our church services had to held in secrecy...
During Christmas we could not openly celebrate...
Not very grateful for people that had traveled several thousand miles to fight, and if need be die, to protect them.
For a tolerant religion, they were anything but. Just my experience.
BTW: I had one guy in a store near the border with Iraq when we were taking forward positions before the ground war that refused to sell me some Tang to add a little flavor to the warm water I had been drinking for months.
He said he did not like Americans. Looking back I should have just taken it. It was just him, and three of us with M-16's. Ungrateful ****.:mad:

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by totenhosen
WOW all I can say is you have no clue as to the true meaning of Islam. You listen to the word of the radicals and take it as the be all end all of Islam. Like I said that is like listening to David Duke for Christanity. Go research for yourself instead of what you hear people spouting on the radio.
I told this to Catmando the other day: Why address the facts instead of telling us to go "research for ourself". Why can't you explain why no Muslim Clerics in the Middle East denounce 911? Why don't they denounce Al Queda? Why does the Muslim world pass out candy in the streets and celebrate loudly when Jews and Americans die? Why is Israel the only democratic nation in the Middle East? Why isn't there one single democratic, free Muslim nation on earth? These are simple questions. Answer one of them at least. What major Christian group hasn't denounced David Duke? And who said anything about the radio? If you the one with a "clue" why do can't you address at least one single fact?
And what are you talking about the "true meaning of Islam"? I don't care about what people say. I don't care what thier book says. I don't care what they think. I care about what DO. Muslims are killing Jews (a DO). Muslims are killing Americans (a DO). They celebrate in the streets and pass out candy when Jews and Americans die (a DO). Muslims institute theocratic dictatorships whenever they get power (a DO). There isn't any free "Muslim nations"; they supress non-muslim thought and they force Islam on thier subjects (a DO). Their clerics either are silent, at best, about Al Quada and terrorism against the west or they support and encourage it (a DO). Tell me where the Peace in Islam is in what the DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????

BUSTI
12-12-2003, 04:40 PM
Toten,
Most organizations are defined , for better or worse, by the ardent and passionate minority of that organizations. And many times a faction of that minority can horribly taint the rest of the group. In Islam's case the minority, that is proactively radical and homicidal, have tainted the majority by way of their murderous jihad bullshit terrorist action. Unforntunately the majority of Muslims that do not actively participate in the terrorists activities are just as guilty as the terrorists minority by dupicity!
Because the silent majority is silent and unwilling to speak up I am convinced that they agree with the attacks on the west. First of all the majority of muslin countries, except Turkey, saw their citizens dancing in the streets at 911. Also all muslim nations where last to condemn it or were silent! No major muslin cleric has condemned consistenly attacks on the west. These so called peaceful muslims that you defend that you say we know nothing about. Harbor these murderous scum in their houses and neighborhoods and feed them as well. Giving them sanctuary.
do you find it odd that the only real published reports of muslims turning in terrorists is only after they have been promised money from the US? We have seen this type of dupicity and corruption amongst silent majorities in other pieces of shit societies...namely the Nazis! Those ****ed up germans that sat by and idlly watched the Nazis slaughter 6 million Jews!!!! If you around then i am sure you would have said then "you know nothing about the german people" "Hitler and his thugs are just a few radicals" ****ING BULLSHIT THOSE GERMAN BASTARDS SAT BY AND WATCHED HITLER DO HIS MURDER AND DIDN'T LIFT A FINGER TO STOP THE SLAUGHTER OF COUNTLESS MEN WOMEN AND C H I L D R E N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
iS LAM IS A CUTTER SOCIETY. Filled with murderous pieces of shit that do represent the silent majority. Hve you ever asked your self why islam is so successful in poor, uneducated ignorant societies. Out side of Pakistan and Turkey, which both have secular govts by the way, islam prospers the most in the open vesterung puss filled wound of society such as somalia and afghanistan.
Totn do your home work! Open your mind to reality! Islam is the currnent scurge of the world! Ask your self this if every ****ing muslim died instantly in the world today just by pushing a button...would the world miss them?
FUCH NO!!!!!!!!! THEY CONTRIBUTE NOTHING AT THIS TIME IN IMPROVING MANS CONDITION IN THIS WORLD. NOTHING!!!
THEY CAN'T FEED THEMSELVES! THEY DON'T INVENT ANYTHING! THEY DON'T DELIBER ANY MEDICINES TO THE WORLD! NOCULTURAL ENHANCEMENTS! NO SPACE TRAVEL! NO STATESMAN! NO FREEDOMS TO ITS PEOPLE ONLY OPPRESSION.
DID YOU KNOW THAT HERE ISN'T ONE MUSLIM NATION THAT HAS AN IMMIGRATION PROBLEM (EXCEPT THE PALESTIIANS TO JORDAN)/ NO BODY WANTS TO LIVE UNDER IS;AM.
Enough of my rant islam is the social peria of the wprld and the sooner the world recognzses it for what it is...which is a global dease and starts the immeadiate eradiction of it the longer we will suffer its terrorists.. Because if you think that ALL THE GOOD PEOPLE MISS UNDERSTOOD AS THEY ARE WILL SOON HELP US PUT AN END TO THE TERRORIST...YOU EITHER BLIND OR ****ING STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miss BK
12-12-2003, 05:38 PM
A "radical" is someone who takes partial truths and invents his own truths and figures out some way to make them coincide with his personal feelings, whether they are true or not.
But if wiping out radical muslims is the answer to our prayers and the road to peace on earth, then WHY ON EARTH did we get rid of Saddam? He was doing a great job of wiping out the radical Shiites, who absolutely fumed that he would allow all night liquor stores and R-rated Hollywood video sales.
Up until the Kuwait invasion, Saddam loved the USA and American products -- he even had a pair of custom cowboy boots on display in his elaborate museum - a gift from Ronald Reagan. He rode chromed up motorcycles and had babes in bikinis in his marble hot tubs, while toking on a cigar and sipping martinis. Rarely do you see him wearing any arab garb. Does that sound like a radical muslim to you?
As far as "NO MUSLIM CLERIC EVER DENOUNCED 9-11"...........
??
Where in the world did that come from?
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-06/20/article30.shtml
Islamonline.net We Denounce 9-11, Owe Egypt An Apology: Islamic JamaÂ’a
By Mohammad Gamal Arafa, IOL Cairo Correspondent
CAIRO, June 20 (IslamOnline) - Leaders of the Egyptian Islamic JamaÂ’a, denounced the September 11 attacks as a sin.
The Islamic JamaÂ’a leaders denied they had any links with Osama bin Laden, emphasizing he was only linked to the Egyptian Jihad movement with which they differ in the ideology of renouncing violence.
Zuhdi said the September 11 attacks are illegal and a sin from the Islamic viewpoint, if it were indeed Muslims who carried out the attacks.
Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman endorsed the JamaÂ’aÂ’s apology
“Killing tradesmen is haram [illegal], and the World Trade Center was full of tradesmen,” he said. “It is also haram [a sin] to kill innocent women, children, and elderly people. There were also more than 600 Muslims in the WTC, and they were killed with the others.”
“Those were all innocent lives who died there, and Bin Laden will answer for their murder before God - if indeed he is to blame for the attacks,” Zuhdi added.

JakeAisA
12-12-2003, 05:48 PM
You're right, I stand corrected--there's one cleric who denounced 911 from the Middle East. The clerics in Saudi Arabia and Mecca, Iran and the other major regimes in the Middle East support Al Quada or they're silent.
But what are you talking about Saddam? Why are you so hung up on these liquer stores? I beleive that's the second time you've talked about Saddam allowing all night liquer stores. Should he be allowed to fill mass graves, rape and torture at will and pay the families homicide bombers for killing Jews because he allowed all night liquer stores? Come on.

Miss BK
12-12-2003, 06:26 PM
The liquor was brought up to drive home the point that the radical muslim fundamentalists were given empowerment by seeing us topple Saddam. They had expected to take over Iraq, since they are the majority there.
One of the first things the radical Muslims did after the fall of Saddam was torch the liquor stores --- liquore stores being run by the "other" muslims (Saddams muslims) whom they call the "Infidels".
Saddam got into power in Iraq by conniving in a plot to kill the prime minister, Abdel-Karim Qassem. But the conspiracy was discovered, and Saddam fled the country. But in 1963 the Baath party took over, and then was overthrown again that same year. Then the Baathists launched a coup and a new President was put on the throne - Ahmed Hassan Bakr, with an assistant - Saddam Hussein - who would take over Iraq in 1979.
The only people who welcomed him were the Baathists and moderate Sunni muslims. And when he and the USA became close allies, that made things even worse for him in that region.
Rumsfeld and Saddam in 1984
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
So, he had to constantly watch his back -- he had two factions wanting him dead: the Kurds and the Shiites. And his Iranian neighbors too.
To avoid assassination (which was all too common in Iraq) he had many living quarters and used body doubles to confuse his enemies.
Saddam could trust nobody.
Many times he was threatened, but managed to thwart the attempts. This is why he created such an aggressive, and often brutal, militant police force.
Now here is the part that we ALL need to really think about. The world warned us that we would have a very rough time trying to control this chaotic triangle of hatred in Iraq without Saddam --- Saddam couldn't even do it completely, even using brute, cruel force. We were warned that we would HAVE to reign this craziness in somehow -- and if we couldn't do it peacefully, and resorted to violence, we would only end up looking like another Saddam.
People Saddam was suspicious of, were questioned and often imprisoned for long lengths of time, without a hearing or trial. (Which we are doing right now)
Certain people were not able to move about freely - for fear they might be attackers. If they did not obey immedate police command, they would be shot or blown to bits on the spot. (The checkpoints we demand now)
Now everybody knows that when there are over a million angry, uncontrollable people, that you can't possibly kill off ALL the people who hate you, especially if they WANT to die to enter heaven. And here is where Saddam went too far......
How would a cruel dictator like Saddam convince a radical to stop attempts at attacking him, if dying is not a deterrent?
Torture.
If that doesn't work......
Then torture his family.
He'd probably rather use gas and wipe out a large group at once, but once use of gas was outlawed, he hasn't used it since 1988.

Havasu Cig
12-12-2003, 06:35 PM
I can't believe the way you defend Saddam. Your views are insane. I give up, there is no reasoning with someone who has distorted views like yours. My.02

Miss BK
12-12-2003, 06:45 PM
Defending Saddam? You've got to be joking? I'm totally against what he's done to his people. He's brutal and fierce. And his brutality, capped with his oil wealth, only created a human who saw himself as a god-like power.
A true leader would not have to resort to war or torture or threats. A true leader would be an excellent diplomat, and be able to use his brain power to bring about relative peace.
But even Saddams biggest critics could not think of one person who could rule Iraq, with all the factions, and make things better.
You just can't go in and overthrow a guy like that, in a country as messed up as that, UNLESS You have a BETTER plan of action that won't put everybody right back in the same hell hole.... Or worse!

totenhosen
12-13-2003, 08:19 AM
Just to try to understand your point about wanting all Mulims dead and that Islam is bad. You compared Islam to Nazi Germany. So are you saying that all women children etc deserve to die to because of what their goverment or some of their clerics say. I'm sure like in Nazi Germany if you speak out against the cleric or Hitler you would be dealt with. So that fear is there and its not fair to say that all are bad. I like to look at it this way whether or not its true. People are inherently good its goverment insitutions etc that make them seem evil. (And yes there is the small minority that is bad)

gnarley
12-13-2003, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Miss BK
He's brutal and fierce. And his brutality, capped with his oil wealth, only created a human who saw himself as a god-like power.
You just can't go in and overthrow a guy like that, in a country as messed up as that, UNLESS You have a BETTER plan of action that won't put everybody right back in the same hell hole.... Or worse!
Unfortunately Saddam with his god-like power was thirsty for even more power, as most other leaders are who have elevated themselves to that level. He demonstrated that when he invaded Kuwait & it was only a matter of time before he tried it again, he had to be taken out or the Middle East risked war that we would have to defend them from again. So which one was the better choice, take him out now or wait for him to further develop WMD's attack other countries & further destabilize the region & the oil flowing to the rest of the world? I think the taking him out now was the best choice, it had to be done even if it left a power vacuum after his departure and it is only Iraq that is now destabilized not the entire region. No matter what would have happened it was inevitable that there was going to be a problem over there that is one thing history has shown.

JakeAisA
12-15-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Miss BK
Defending Saddam? You've got to be joking? I'm totally against what he's done to his people. He's brutal and fierce. And his brutality, capped with his oil wealth, only created a human who saw himself as a god-like power.
A true leader would not have to resort to war or torture or threats. A true leader would be an excellent diplomat, and be able to use his brain power to bring about relative peace.
But even Saddams biggest critics could not think of one person who could rule Iraq, with all the factions, and make things better.
You just can't go in and overthrow a guy like that, in a country as messed up as that, UNLESS You have a BETTER plan of action that won't put everybody right back in the same hell hole.... Or worse!
Ms BK: You sound like a dictator when you say "But even Saddams biggest critics could not think of one person who could rule Iraq, with all the factions, and make things better." Don't you think?
Amazing. Have you guys ever wondered how so many "human rights" organizations around the world have been silent on actual "human rights" violations? China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, the whole Middle East for that matter, Africa. Liberals in America and in Europe don't care about dictators who murder, they care about camp x-ray in Guantonomo Bay and the murderous terrorists captured and held there, or they cry about "sweat shops" in India where people are only paid $5 bucks per day (they forget to tell you that $5 bucks per day is the highest wage available in the whole country though). But when people are murdered by the thousands, hundreds of thousands, where rape, torture, suicide bombings and civil war are murdering and killing hundreds of thousands of people, Liberals and "human rights activists" don't give a shit. George Bush sends our boys into Iraq, we stop the oppression and the murder and George Bush and his supporters get no credit, but rather, are called tyrants themselves!
I know why Liberals do this: they would rather people like Saddam Hussein remain in power and murdering then have a political opponent like George Bush get credit for taking Saddam out. That's the truth of it. And that's why Liberals are liars when it comes to human rights. How can you be taken seriously if deman "human rights" in camp x-ray but call Al Quada "freedom fighters" instead of terrorists? How can you be taken seriously if you think our military should go into Somolia and Haiti to "feed the oppressed" but say Saddam and the murder and the rape and torture were best that could expected for the people of Iraq? Talk about being pompous and politically motivated.

Blown 472
12-15-2003, 10:53 AM
Wow some pretty narrow views of the world. You wonder why the mid east is angry hard to understand coming from the american point of view which is live for today who cares what happened in the 20's or even in the 80's.
The problem with these people is they are tired of being played as puppets with countries invading them and putting up puppet gubments, we have the fortune of being able to just forget about stuff that happens if something is on tv we find unsettling we can change the channel and find something to give us a warm fuzzy feeling.
rage on and dont get personall and **** up this debate.

BUSTI
12-15-2003, 11:27 AM
Toten,
Never did I say that any innocents deserved to die. What I was saying was that a cpmplete and total commdenation of Islam is needed by the civilized world. What Muslims believe in all over the world, as a rule, has a zero net positive effect on the world. I said they bring nothing to world table that advances or enhances mankind. They don't invent anything! They do not exend human rights to their own people. they foster murder in every society that islam breeds in. have you ever heard of honor killings in Muslim countries?
The world of Islam teaches anti semetism and racism through out its teachings. it is a gutter religion that is a front for a global criminal conspiracy tas amount to the most violent "mens" club in the world's history! They treat their womwn like shit and as I said this cult like organization only thrives in poor uneducated slum like countries. when i said that if every Muslim suddenly disappeared off the face of the globe would the world be better off? I meant that this bullshit religion has no positive effect on humanity and the world would be better off with out Islam. does not mean that I advocate the killing of innocent men, women, and children. Just that a recognition that their lives will be a net zero to the world if they are folowers of Islam.
If you diagree then please list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism, oh please show me any muslim societies bill of rights, classical music, computers, fianancial products, space deveopment...any thig that you think this gutter trash has contributed. as a society they have contributed nothing but pain to the world and continue to do so.
Just read the reports of what the arab street thinks of saddams capture. The sooner islam dies in this world the better the world will be. Does that mean i want to kill them all...no just most of them! i would chose innocent American lives over Muslims any day of the week and five times on Sunday!!!
Lets be clear we would all be better off with out them!

Freak
12-15-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Miss BK
You just can't go in and overthrow a guy like that, in a country as messed up as that, UNLESS You have a BETTER plan of action that won't put everybody right back in the same hell hole.... Or worse!
Exactly - that is why we will not be leaving that country any time soon. If we pulled out, the next lunatic would just step up.

Ducatista
12-15-2003, 11:43 AM
Damn BUSTI your good.....I couldn't agree more! I wish we could declare war on the Muslim Nation and kill all those Islamic fu%ks! Turn the Mid-east into glass and spend the next fifty years pumping their oil out to feed our hungry nation. Gas up the Abrams and the DCB's and get the fu%k out of our way you Muslim freaks. Oh, sorry, I'm getting carried away again! :wink:

Blown 472
12-15-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by BUSTI
Toten,
Never did I say that any innocents deserved to die. What I was saying was that a cpmplete and total commdenation of Islam is needed by the civilized world. What Muslims believe in all over the world, as a rule, has a zero net positive effect on the world. I said they bring nothing to world table that advances or enhances mankind. They don't invent anything! They do not exend human rights to their own people. they foster murder in every society that islam breeds in. have you ever heard of honor killings in Muslim countries?
The world of Islam teaches anti semetism and racism through out its teachings. it is a gutter religion that is a front for a global criminal conspiracy tas amount to the most violent "mens" club in the world's history! They treat their womwn like shit and as I said this cult like organization only thrives in poor uneducated slum like countries. when i said that if every Muslim suddenly disappeared off the face of the globe would the world be better off? I meant that this bullshit religion has no positive effect on humanity and the world would be better off with out Islam. does not mean that I advocate the killing of innocent men, women, and children. Just that a recognition that their lives will be a net zero to the world if they are folowers of Islam.
If you diagree then please list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism, oh please show me any muslim societies bill of rights, classical music, computers, fianancial products, space deveopment...any thig that you think this gutter trash has contributed. as a society they have contributed nothing but pain to the world and continue to do so.
Just read the reports of what the arab street thinks of saddams capture. The sooner islam dies in this world the better the world will be. Does that mean i want to kill them all...no just most of them! i would chose innocent American lives over Muslims any day of the week and five times on Sunday!!!
Lets be clear we would all be better off with out them!
Sheesh and I thought the crusades die along time ago.

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 11:53 AM
Here's what has me baffled....
We first tried to link 9-11 with Iraq. No matter how hard we tried, we could find no link. Period. Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of Middle Eastern troubles know that Saddam and Osama are sworn enemies. Saddam is everything Osama can't stand. Saddam tried to get on the good side of the radical muslims by sending cash to the families of people they call "Freedom Fighters" (Palestinians). But I doubt it had much impact.
If we are ousting Saddam because he stands behind Palestine -- then most Iraq's people stand behind the Palestinians too --- So why on earth are we so gung-ho to liberate them and give them their "FREEDOM"? That makes no sense.
Then we tried to find Nuclear weapons. Despite our constant surveillance and spy sattelites, we turned up zero. Even the so-called "expert" documents turned out to be forgeries.
Even Iran said that Iraq was no longer a threat and the UN inspectors stated Saddam was 80% disarmed and they could find no evidence Iraq was an imminent threat.
Then we brought up his use of chemical weapons --- which he hasn't use since 1988! Of course we knew he had them....15 years ago. How did we know? Because when the Ayatollah Khomeini came to the UN in 1984 to denouce Saddam Hussein and his vicious use of CHEMICALS against them, the USA, under Reagan, told Iran to "BACK OFF" because Saddam was the "legitimate" moral leader of a "sovereign nation".
We didn't seem to give a rats ass about his chemicals back when he was USING them --- but now we can't find them, haven't seen them in years ---- and so NOW we go to war ? That's absolutely GOOFY. No wonder so many countries are skeptical of our intentions.
You can read that actual 1984 US response to Iran here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm
"The United States finds the present Iranian regime's intransigent refusal to deviate from its avowed objective of eliminating the legitimate government of neighboring Iraq to be inconsistent with the accepted norms of behavior among nations and the moral and religious basis which it claims."
Now, last October they found 250 civilian bodies piled up in a heap in the Ivory Coast. These civilians -- women and children included -- were slaughtered by the army for being suspected of "giving food to the enemy".
If our job is to protect the rest of the world from barbaric tyrants, then how come these RECENT murders of innocent people went completely unnoticed by our government??
Not even one headline anywhere!

JakeAisA
12-15-2003, 01:10 PM
Miss BK: “Saddam tried to get on the good side of the radical muslims by sending cash to the families of people they call "Freedom Fighters" (Palestinians). But I doubt it had much impact.”
How naïve. You think Saddam sent $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers to “get on the good side”? That’s so childishly naïve; he did it to encourage people to kill Jews!!! He’s a terrorist!
Miss BK: “Even Iran said that Iraq was no longer a threat and the UN inspectors stated Saddam was 80% disarmed and they could find no evidence Iraq was an imminent threat.”
And the United States of America should trust what Iran has to say? Iran has a nuclear program, right? Do you think they were against ousting Saddam because they donÂ’t want to be next? Come on, wake up.
Ms BK: “Now, last October they found 250 civilian bodies piled up in a heap in the Ivory Coast. These civilians -- women and children included -- were slaughtered by the army for being suspected of "giving food to the enemy". If our job is to protect the rest of the world from barbaric tyrants, then how come these RECENT murders of innocent people went completely unnoticed by our government?? Not even one headline anywhere!”
DonÂ’t you think Bush should be worrying about the 3,000 dead Americans from 911 and preventing another one first? Killing Baathists protects America because a free Iraq will produce productive, free loving people that arenÂ’t raised from birth to hate America and then someday act on that hatred by flying an air plane into the Sears Tower. Get real.

Blown 472
12-15-2003, 01:15 PM
I have to take you to task on that last statement, since the bulk of the people who flew the planes into the buildings came from saudi arabia how come we didn't attack them?? they have schools and churches spewing hatred for us but yet we do nothing to them??
I will tell you why, little know fact the saudi's emplyee alot of the past deligates that worked for us, united states citzens that get paid by the saudis to lobby for them. And since there is no link to iraq and 9/11 why did we attack them for it??

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Exactly - that is why we will not be leaving that country any time soon. If we pulled out, the next lunatic would just step up.
You hit the nail on the head. We can't leave. If a Shiite is elected, the Kurds and Sunnis will rebel and try to assassinate him or plan a coup. This is what was going on in the 1970's before Saddam. If a Kurd takes power, the Shiites and Sunni's will rebel. If a Sunni is elected then the other groups will riot.
So the current plan the US has is to let "every type of Iraqi" rule as a member of one big group. Right now there are 13 members and 7 of those are US hand-picked Shiites. Everyone will forgive everyone else and we'll have one big happy family - Only if you are dreaming.
Can you imagine having a split 50/50 Presidency: One Republican, one Democrat - with the Republican choice being hand picked by the Democrats?
We certainly can't have all this rebelling going on while US and allied corporations are trying to work over there, right? Our men in uniform be their body guards for a very long time.
I belong to a Sixth Armored Division as an Assoc. member, since I have a lot of family who are veterans. The discussion there regarding this war is the same as all their other battles:
"What is our objective?"
You can hardly ignore what the US has long been saying; that Iraq is centered in the most strategic location to keep a finger on the rest of the Middle East. I can already tell we are going to be there forever.

JakeAisA
12-15-2003, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
I have to take you to task on that last statement, since the bulk of the people who flew the planes into the buildings came from saudi arabia how come we didn't attack them?? they have schools and churches spewing hatred for us but yet we do nothing to them??
I will tell you why, little know fact the saudi's emplyee alot of the past deligates that worked for us, united states citzens that get paid by the saudis to lobby for them. And since there is no link to iraq and 9/11 why did we attack them for it??
Answer:
We didn't attack Iraq because of 911, directly; we attacked Afghanistan becuase that's where Al Quada was.
We attacked Iraq because he was the next best target and the most powerful threat to us militarily and in terms of military support to terrorists.
Trust me, Saudi Arabia is on Bush's shit list. Bill Clinton kept 5,000 marines in Saudi Arabia at the time of Bush's Inauguration. Bush, since 911, has pulled every last American service person out of Saudi Arabia. There isn't one marine there; Saudi Arabia is not off the shit list.
The answer to why we haven't attacked Saudi Arabia is two part: Bush's Shit List in the Middle East is long and there are bigger fish above the Saudi's. Give the President some time though because the Saudi's have a reckoning coming one way or the other.

BUSTI
12-15-2003, 01:34 PM
Miss BK,
After reading your post I am also convinced that you are baffled by all this!
Maybe this will clear it up a little for you.
NEVER DID THIS PRESIDENT NOR ANYBODY IN HIS ADMISTRATION EVER SAY WE WERE GOING TO INVADE IRAQ BECAUSE WE WANTED TO LIBERATE THE IRAQI PEOPLE! NEVER DID THIS PRESIDENT NOR HIS ADMINISTRATION EVER SAY WE WERE GOING TO INVADE IRAQ BECAUSE WE THOUGHT HE HAD WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!
What this President did say and what his Administration did say was that we were going to invade Iraq and topple Saddam husseins regime as punitive measures for Saddam violating over 17 UN resolutions. All of these resolutions were demanding the return of the weapons inspectors he had thrown out under the Clinton administration in 1996.
If you remember as a condition to Gulf War One this homicidal maniac agreed to allow ongoing weapons inspectors to have unfettered access to all of his military facilities. During this time not only did they find chemical weapons production facilities he admitted that he had reurrested his nuclear weapons facilities. HE ADMITTED IT. IT WAS CONFIRMED BY THE UN INSPECTORS IN THE EARLY 90'S. IN THE 1980'S THE ISEAELIIS BOMBED HIS NUCLEAR REACTOR THAT WAS MAKING WEAPONS GRADE ENRICHED URANIUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOBODY IN THE WORLD COMMUNITY DENIES HE HAD WEPONS OF MASS DESRUCTION VERIFIED SEVERAL TIMES AND ADMITTED BY THIS MANIAC TWICE!!!
Now back to why we invaded at Gulf War Two... after 911 the diplomatic bullshit with all of these middle east fuchs went out the window. Lets make it clear we did not go into Iraq to liberate the people of Iraq. We did not go into Afganhistan tp liberate the Afghan people...WE WENT THERE TO PROTECT AMERICANS FROM TOW OF MOST BRUTAL REGIMES IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD THAT HAD ONE THING IN COMMON..THAT IS THEY HATE JEWS AND THEY HATE AMERICANS AND THEY BOTH ACTIVELY TRAINED TERRORISTS.
Rather than to wait for another attack this President made a decision to proactively hunt out and destroy any country that was capable of bringing terror to Americas shores. Look at saddams history..he had already used weapons of mass destruction and he already had shown his willingness to invade his nieghbors. One Bin Ladden had struck with 911 what did you expect this President to do? For a chemical or worse yet a nuclear device detonated in Times Square?
Hell no this president did his job and found the most dangerous states with the most likelyhood to bring us another 911 and he roasted them. He went to the congress and got a resolution! He went to the UN for a resolution giving Saddam a final ultimatum and he got it from the UN.. After giving Saddam two deadlines to allow inspectors complete and unfettered access to any and all loactions, as he had agreed to in 1991, this President decided to invade. Just as President Roosevelt liberated Europe in 1944 as a side cosequence to World War Two this President liberated the Iraqiis. In world War Two the purpose of America was to protect America FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!! But the positive consequence of our Presidents action was to free europe and stop the slaughter of millions of Jews. Also this president, President Bush with his coalition of the willing as an unintended consequence liberated the Iraqiis from their worst nitemare! But it was a side issue..first and for most he was taking a proactive invasion to rid us of the scum that would kill us.
Why is his action so hard for you people to figure out. quit repeating the liberal lies of the left....BUSH INVADED IRAQ BECAUSE HE WAS IN VIOLATION OF 17 UN RESOLUTIONS RELATED TO WEAPONS INSPECTORS.
YOU CAN BET ON ONE THING ..WE DONT NEED ANY FUHING WEAPONS INSPECTORS IN IRAQ NOW!! 'CAUSE THEY WILL NOT BE MAKING ANY WMD'S ANY TIME SOON IN THAT COUNTRY.
How stupid of Saddam all he had to do was allow inspectors and he would be in power today...robbing, torturing, and raping all the iraqiis his little heardt felt like. All we wanted was weapons inspectors.
Does that clear it up a little for all you people ...WE DIDN'T INVADE IRAQ BECAUSE WE KNEW HE HAD WMD'S WE INVADED IRAQ TO INSURE HE NEVER WOULD HAVE THEM AND AS A SIDE POSITIVE CONSEQUENCE TO THAT INVASION WE LIBERATED IRAQ...WHEW JOW DO YOU FUHING UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
[B]
DonÂ’t you think Bush should be worrying about the 3,000 dead Americans from 911 and preventing another one first? Killing Baathists protects America because a free Iraq will produce productive, free loving people that arenÂ’t raised from birth to hate America and then someday act on that hatred by flying an air plane into the Sears Tower. Get real.
First, they weren't ALL Americans. There were many nationalities in those buildings, including muslims.
Second, I met two commercial Iraqis pilots from Baghdad at Disneyland in 1979 and they most certainly did NOT hate Americans. They were spending their 3 week vacation here and having the time of their life! In fact, I bought them two cowboy hats to take back home. They loved it!
Baathists are not the radical fundamentalist muslims that flew into buildings. They are not even jihadic fundamentalits. Tariq Aziz, Saddam's Deputy Prime Minister, is even a CHRISTIAN!
I'ts almost like you have Afghanistan and Iraq totally confused.
Yes, there are radical fundamentalists who live in the south of Iraq (the people we are liberating) but those folks who attacked America were not from Iraq, nor were they raised in Iraq. They were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
I don't hit my grandma just because my dog bit me, even if they do have the same color hair. ;)
Second, almost everyone who supports Bush has dropped the 9-11 connection to Iraq -- Including Bush himself. In fact, he himself has never come right out said they were related -- he just says the word "terrorist" and hopes the average American won't investigate it any further than that. And he is right - most Americans won't.
In Bush's speech yesterday, he mentioned that our goal all along was "Iraqi Liberation" and repeated it about 10 times. He said "terrorist" twice.
But not once did he even mention the words "weapons of mass destruction", or "9-11". That's because those early assumptions just flat don't hold water, and more and more people are figuring that out.
Pay close attention next time he talks --- Will he claim that there still is an Iraq/9-11 connection? Will he say our reason for war was to find weapons of mass destruction? Will he say it was because of the UN violations?? NO!
He will now be emphasizing the "liberation" of the Iraqi people from a tyrant!
It will certainly be interesting to see what he says about all of those original reasons for war that we never found, especially with the elections coming up. My guess is that he will mention them as few times as possbile, if at all.

JakeAisA
12-15-2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Miss BK
First, they weren't ALL Americans. There were many nationalities in those buildings, including muslims.
Second, I met two commercial Iraqis pilots from Baghdad at Disneyland in 1979 and they most certainly did NOT hate Americans. They were spending their 3 week vacation here and having the time of their life! In fact, I bought them two cowboy hats to take back home. They loved it!
Baathists are not the radical fundamentalist muslims that flew into buildings. They are not even jihadic fundamentalits. Tariq Aziz, Saddam's Deputy Prime Minister, is even a CHRISTIAN!
I'ts almost like you have Afghanistan and Iraq totally confused.
Yes, there are radical fundamentalists who live in the south of Iraq (the people we are liberating) but those folks who attacked America were not from Iraq, nor were they raised in Iraq. They were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
I don't hit my grandma just because my dog bit me, even if they do have the same color hair. ;)
Second, almost everyone who supports Bush has dropped the 9-11 connection to Iraq -- Including Bush himself. In fact, he himself has never come right out said they were related -- he just says the word "terrorist" and hopes the average American won't investigate it any further than that. And he is right - most Americans won't.
In Bush's speech yesterday, he mentioned that our goal all along was "Iraqi Liberation" and repeated it about 10 times. He said "terrorist" twice.
But not once did he even mention the words "weapons of mass destruction", or "9-11". That's because those early assumptions just flat don't hold water, and more and more people are figuring that out.
Pay close attention next time he talks --- Will he claim that there still is an Iraq/9-11 connection? Will he say our reason for war was to find weapons of mass destruction?
Or will he now be only emphasizing the "liberation" of the Iraqi people from a tyrant?
It will certainly be interesting to see what he says about all of those original reasons for war that we never found, especially with the elections coming up. My guess is that he will mention them as few times as possbile, if at all.
You're such an evasionist. It's comical.

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by BUSTI
How stupid of Saddam all he had to do was allow inspectors and he would be in power today...
Um....
UN inspectors were in Iraq until 1997. The reason Saddam kicked the UN inspectors out was because he felt the UN was simply acting as a servant to the US.
In 2002, Bush demanded the UN weapons inspectors go back into Iraq. And they did. No doubt, Bush never expected Saddam to comply with this wish.
So, Bush only let the UN inspectors work for three months before ordering them out. He really didn't want inspections anyway. He was just hoping Saddam would refuse and that would give him a reason to wage war immediately.
But Saddam threw a curve ball, and Bush had to come up with other reasons. Violating UN resolutions is a weak point (considering the US too is in violation of several, including the chemical weapons treaty which demands inspections of our facilities by the UN, which we, of course, dont allow).
So that's why the name of our war - as well as our cause - was changed to, "OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM".
I heard it was originally going to be called OPERATION IRAQI LIBERATION, but that acronym would have caused quite a stir. :D
From the MACNEIL/LEHRER NEWSHOUR :
"When Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, Aziz served as the international spokesman in support of the military action, saying the move was justified because Kuwait's increased oil production was dampening Iraqi oil revenues. He has condemned Arab states for "subservience to the United States' hegemony in the Middle East and their support for punitive sanctions."
"Aziz blamed the United States rather than the United Nations for the sanctions that followed the Gulf War, believing they were implemented as a result of U.S. government policies. He used these beliefs to back the expulsion of Americans working for the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) in 1997."

Havasu Cig
12-15-2003, 02:33 PM
You say you belong to the 6th Armored Division Association as an associate member, and that they are questioning the "objective" in this conflict????
I belong to the 1st Cavalry Division Association (as a Vet who was there, not just someone who pays dues) and I can tell you that there is nobody questioning the "objective".
I get a news letter once a month and the association supports the President and U.S. Military 100%.
One more question (I can't resist). What about Mohamed Atta (the mastermind of 9/11) being trained by Abu Nadal in Iraq. There is more and more evidence surfacing to support this. What are you going to say when the connection between Saddam and 9/11 is made clear?????

BUSTI
12-15-2003, 02:55 PM
bK,
You work very hard at apologizing for Saddam Hussien. You act as if he was an innocent man picked on by the US and President Bush. You sound like you are from France instead of America.
Sorry but the vast majority of americans disagree with you revisionist view of why we are in Iraq. as previouly noted ..what the hell will you say when it is proven that under the direction or direct involvement mohamed atta was limked to saddam?
Also will you be intellectually honest and admitt you were wrong if and when WMD's are discovered in Iraq? or when the President proves the link between Iraq and 911 if and when he ever does? i don't believe you will though.

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 03:18 PM
what the hell will you say when it is proven that under the direction or direct involvement mohamed atta was limked to saddam?
Honestly, I PRAY TO GOD we do find some connection to Saddam with the 9-11 terrorists. And I hope we find it soon!
So far there is NO sign that Atta was trained anywhere near Iraq. No sign that any of those terrorists were connected to Saddam. And not a shred of evidence the Al Qaida was there either.
That's why Bush says "Liberation" is our motive. True - Saddam offering money to Palestine families is "Supporting Terror" but you can hardly wage an international war over that.
Back to the Sixth Amd. seeking to find what our "Objective" is. These veterans just simply want to know what our objective is in this war! Nobody can give a clear objective in this conflict. Even the people on this board giving the reasons for war are all over the board - each one has a different story and some of them are using stuff that doesn't have one lick of evidence to support it. That scares me. I don't want to know that my government is making up sh%* to start wars.
Whenever the White House gives us a firm reason for military intervention, it almost always turns out to be bogus. These are facts not just "my feelings". I'm not making this up -- I can point you to every one of these bogus reports - from nuclear weapons all the way to the ricin traces found in Northern Iraq.
I just want to KNOW that Bush is telling us the truth.
Because if we don't find out what is the truth and what is hogwash, I fear things will never be the same for our great country. We have always been the great leader; looked up to as being righteous and fair and doing what is good.
If we can prove our case, then we can be looked up to as the greatest world leader once again.
PS - -
I see that IRAN is now seeking Saddam be brought to justice for the war crimes he committed during the IRAN/IRAQ war. Since we supported Saddam during that time he was using chemical weapons, I wonder if we are going to be brought into that mess?

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 03:59 PM
Here's some history that might help one understand the conflicts going on over there.......
"The war between Iran and Iraq was one of the great human tragedies of recent Middle Eastern history. Perhaps as many as a million people died, many more were wounded, and millions were made refugees. The resources wasted on the war exceeded what the entire Third World spent on public health in a decade. The war began on September 22, 1980, when Iraqi troops launched a full-scale invasion of Iran.
On July 12, 1982, the Security Council met on the issue of the war for the first time since 1980 and called for a withdrawal to the pre-war boundaries. Iran considered this further proof of the bias of the United Nations, since the call for withdrawal came at the first moment in the war when Iranian forces held any Iraqi territory.
Iraq responded to Iranian victories on the ground by making use of its advantage in technology: it escalated the tanker war, employed chemical weapons, and launched attacks on civilian targets. Iran retaliated by striking Gulf shipping starting in 1984 and launching its own attacks on civilians, though on a lesser scale than Iraq. Iran charged that the Security Council's handling of each of these issues reflected animus against Iran.
In 1984 the Security Council passed a resolution on the tanker war that was directed primarily against Iran's actions and made no reference to Iraqi conduct except to call for all states to respect the right of free navigation.
On chemical weapons, the Security Council passed no resolution. The United States condemned the use of chemical weapons, but declined to support any Security Council actions against Iraq for the use of these weapons.
Washington's effort to enhance its position with both sides came apart at the end of 1986 when one faction in the Iranian government leaked the story of the U.S. arms dealing. Now the Reagan administration was in the unenviable position of having alienated the Iranians and panicked all the Arabs who concluded that the U.S. valued Iran's friendship over theirs. To salvage the U.S. position with at least one side, Washington now had to tilt -- and tilt heavily -- toward Iraq.
It was Iraq that started the tanker war in the Gulf proper in 1981, and that continued these attacks into 1984 without a parallel Iranian response at sea. Two months after Iraq stepped up the pace and scope of its attacks in March 1984, Iran finally began responding. Iraqi attacks, however, outnumbered those by Iran until after the United States announced its reflagging. The U.S. Navy protected the reflagged vessels, and in April 1988 extended its protection to any neutral vessels coming under Iranian attack.
In practice, this meant that Iraq could strike at Iranian vessels with impunity, with the U.S. Navy preventing retaliation by Teheran.
In late 1986 the Iran-Contra scandal broke, forcing the U.S. to go all-out in its support for Iraq in order to preserve some influence among the Arab states jolted by the evidence of Washington's double-dealing. In May 1987, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Richard Murphy met with Saddam Hussein and promised him that the U.S. would lead an effort at the UN for a mandatory arms embargo of Iran; a resolution would be drawn up calling on both sides to cease fire and withdraw.
THE UNITED STATES AND THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR

JakeAisA
12-15-2003, 05:54 PM
Miss BK:
What the hell are you talking about? What does the Iran/Iraq war have to do with anything now? So what if we chose Iraq over Iran 20 years ago. Do you remember a little incident in 79/80 called the Iran Hostage Crisis? When Saddam and Iran went to war, we were just glad someone was taking after Iran! And we were wrong, but now we're right. So what! We were allies with the Soviets during WWII, should we have not fought the Cold War with them because we fought together against Hitler? You're so naive it's stupid. You act as if there was one shot to get it right and that was in 1983 or whatever when we chose a side, a nominal choice too, with Iraq against Iran. And when we're talking about choosing Iraq, we're not talking about guns and WMD's. Our support of Iraq was little more then a few choice words against Iran. But really, don't you think we've had it right since Saddam invaded Kuwait? Don't be so stupid. We've gone to war twice with Saddam and now we've taken him out. What the hell are you trying to prove here. Are you saying we should have let him be the whole time just because we weren't against him earlier? Get out of here.
And about your "what's the objective in this war" nonsense: What war!? I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events, but we've been kicking there asses out there. It was obvious in Afghanistan: Obliterate and remove the Taliban. It was obvious for Iraq: Obliterate and remove Saddam, his sons and the Baathist regime. What more do you want. I'm sorry, but the grunts on the ground understand exactly what thier mission is and they're kicking ass and taking names. We have less then 500 servicemen die in two wars that have taken out two of the most brutal regimes in history! And guess what? It's over with, we smoked them, Iraq will be free, the Taliban and Saddam aren't coming back; so what are you wasting your time in arguing arguing why we never should have done it in the first place? You're wasting your time. We've already done it., so get over it. Saddam is gone and there's nothing you can do to bring him back.

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
You say you belong to the 6th Armored Division Association as an associate member, and that they are questioning the "objective" in this conflict????
I belong to the 1st Cavalry Division Association (as a Vet who was there, not just someone who pays dues) and I can tell you that there is nobody questioning the "objective".
I get a news letter once a month and the association supports the President and U.S. Military 100%.
One more question (I can't resist). What about Mohamed Atta (the mastermind of 9/11) being trained by Abu Nadal in Iraq. There is more and more evidence surfacing to support this. What are you going to say when the connection between Saddam and 9/11 is made clear?????
Bingo!!!! There is a lot more connection between Saddam and Al Qaida than anyone has given credence to IMO.
My son was in the 1st Cav in Bosnia in 1998 during the war with Yugoville...later he was assigned to the 4th ID. It was his former Brigade that caught up with Nick Nolte, er um uhhhh, Saddam Hussein.
Go First Team!!!

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Miss BK:
What the hell are you talking about? What does the Iran/Iraq war have to do with anything now? So what if we chose Iraq over Iran 20 years ago. Do you remember a little incident in 79/80 called the Iran Hostage Crisis? When Saddam and Iran went to war, we were just glad someone was taking after Iran! And we were wrong, but now we're right. So what! We were allies with the Soviets during WWII, should we have not fought the Cold War with them because we fought together against Hitler? You're so naive it's stupid. You act as if there was one shot to get it right and that was in 1983 or whatever when we chose a side, a nominal choice too, with Iraq against Iran. And when we're talking about choosing Iraq, we're not talking about guns and WMD's. Our support of Iraq was little more then a few choice words against Iran. But really, don't you think we've had it right since Saddam invaded Kuwait? Don't be so stupid. We've gone to war twice with Saddam and now we've taken him out. What the hell are you trying to prove here. Are you saying we should have let him be the whole time just because we weren't against him earlier? Get out of here.
And about your "what's the objective in this war" nonsense: What war!? I don't know if you've been keeping up with current events, but we've been kicking there asses out there. It was obvious in Afghanistan: Obliterate and remove the Taliban. It was obvious for Iraq: Obliterate and remove Saddam, his sons and the Baathist regime. What more do you want. I'm sorry, but the grunts on the ground understand exactly what thier mission is and they're kicking ass and taking names. We have less then 500 servicemen die in two wars that have taken out two of the most brutal regimes in history! And guess what? It's over with, we smoked them, Iraq will be free, the Taliban and Saddam aren't coming back; so what are you wasting your time in arguing arguing why we never should have done it in the first place? You're wasting your time. We've already done it., so get over it. Saddam is gone and there's nothing you can do to bring him back.
Yeah, dude...WTF was all that dribble about? It was OK to ally ourselves with Stalin to kick Hitlers ass but not OK to ally ourselves with Hussein against what we perceived as a larger threat from the Fundamenmtalist Iranian government? We didn't know Hussein was so completely whacked at the time. We did have a good idea how whacked Stalin was at the time though...from his purges of the 30s. More Peacenik Diatribe...:mad:

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 07:28 PM
Just curious, but did you even read any of what I posted?
Why do say, I am "so naive" ....because I brought up some serious questions that many are asking? Perhaps I am naive --- but i'm still waiting for answers to my questions and so far, nobody can answer them.
One was that Saddam was using chemicals all during the Iran/Iraq war ...... When Iran asked for help in stopping Saddam from using this horrible weapon by bringing it to the UN Security Council in 1984 (Which we were one of the 5 voting members back then too) the United States said it was not a big deal and told Iran to "back off" and leave Saddam alone.
My question is: Why was the "gassing" not a serious offense back then, but it is now?
In fact, we didn't ask Saddam to stop until TWO YEARS later. And we didn't demand any sort of punishment at all, it was more along the lines of a "suggestion" that he cease using this type of weapon.
Is it your suggestion that the entire world just forget that all of this happened? Who is being naive now?
Mysteriously, 20 years later, the US suddenly makes this into a big deal .....right after GW is elected. So we now the USA is saying Iran was right all this time???
What Saddam did was absolutely horrific... but the question is WHY didn't we stop him back in 1984? Since we failed to do anything, and stuck up for Iraq, does this mean the US partially to blame for deaths of all those innocent Kurds and Iranians? If so, how can we possibly scream foul now? Will the USA even allow Iran to take Saddam to court for those war crimes?
So if that isn't strange enough, it is even more intriguing that Bush and his family's background is in the OIL and ENERGY industry. Same with Cheney. That G W Bush's first job out of college was owning his own Oil company - "Arbusto Oil".
Then came 9-11, but trying to tie Iraq with Al Qaida didn't take Bush very far. He had not a single link that was even remotely provable. And most educated people know that radical Saudi muslims aren't too keen on Saddam anyhow, so the idea was very far fetched.
It is not hard for most people to understand why it looks extremely odd that former oil company owner G W Bush is bringing up things that happened 20 years ago to start a war with the country that owns the 2nd largest oil fields in the world ......by using past atrocities that the USA had a direct hand in failing to bring a stop to all those years ago.
And before you start shouting personal insults again, remember those are not my thoughts. These things actually happened. You can find them in any history book. Everybody has a right to question things that just flat don't look right. That's something I always do, even if it means verbal abuse from those who can't bring forth a better argument.
If you can answer any of my questions, I welcome you to. But if you have any facts to dispute any of it, please provide the link to the source.

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
We didn't know Hussein was so completely whacked at the time.
Wrong. The things he did in 1980's is exactly what we are bringing up now. He hasn't used any chemicals since 1988.

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 07:44 PM
You are entitled to your opinions. Your questions are less questions than statements, bordering on rhetoric. That is that they are questions that are not supposed to be answered because they are really statements.
I disagree with your premises for almost all of them. Conspiracy theories abound throughout history, as it relates to this country...they exist throughout our history. FDR has been acused of letting Pearl Harbor happen, Winston Churchill was acused of knowing of plans for the attack and letting it happen to drag the US into WWII.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident was proven to be bogus. The North Koreans attacking over the border was not imaginary though.
Were there weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Looks like not. Why then did Saddam not let the inspectors in with unfettered access? What a dumb ass. It led to his demise.
In my opinion Iraq should have been invaded when Saddam kicked the inspectors out in 1998. He was thumbing the nose at the noble and completely incompetent, corrupt, morally bankrupt and impotent UN. He lost the Gulf War, but seemed to play it as a great victory.
Regardless, I will not answer any more of your questions because you have already made up your mind and have made your statements of disagreement with GWs policies appear to be valid questions. Sorry, I won't bite.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Miss BK
Wrong. The things he did in 1980's is exactly what we are bringing up now. He hasn't used any chemicals since 1988.
Your point? We started giving him aid immediately following the 1979 Iranian Hostage Crisis...

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 07:59 PM
Why then did Saddam not let the inspectors in with unfettered access?
I've just posted the Chief UN Weapons inspectors report, which came just one month before the start of the Iraq war. (Which I watched live on C-Span)
Where does it say Iraq was hindering inspection access?? Answer: No where. In fact, it says exactly the opposite:
Hans Blix's briefing to the security council
Friday February 14, 2003
Mr. President,
Since I reported to the Security Council on 27 January, UNMOVIC has had two further weeks of operational and analytical work in New York and active inspections in Iraq. This brings the total period of inspections so far to 11 weeks. Since then, we have also listened on 5 February to the presentation to the Council by the US Secretary of State and the discussion that followed. Lastly, Dr. ElBaradei and I have held another round of talks in Baghdad with our counterparts and with Vice President Ramadan on 8 and 9 February.
Let me begin today's briefing with a short account of the work being performed by UNMOVIC in Iraq.
We have continued to build up our capabilities. The regional office in Mosul is now fully operational at its temporary headquarters. Plans for a regional office at Basra are being developed. Our Hercules L-100 aircraft continues to operate routine flights between Baghdad and Larnaca. The eight helicopters are fully operational. With the resolution of the problems raised by Iraq for the transportation of minders into the no-fly zones, our mobility in these zones has improved. We expect to increase utilization of the helicopters. The number of Iraqi minders during inspections had often reached a ratio as high as five per inspector. During the talks in January in Baghdad, the Iraqi side agreed to keep the ratio to about one to one. The situation has improved.
Since we arrived in Iraq, we have conducted more than 400 inspections covering more than 300 sites. All inspections were performed without notice, and access was almost always provided promptly. In no case have we seen convincing evidence that the Iraqi side knew in advance that the inspectors were coming.
The inspections have taken place throughout Iraq at industrial sites, ammunition depots, research centres, universities, presidential sites, mobile laboratories, private houses, missile production facilities, military camps and agricultural sites. At all sites which had been inspected before 1998, re-baselining activities were performed. This included the identification of the function and contents of each building, new or old, at a site. It also included verification of previously tagged equipment, application of seals and tags, taking samples and discussions with the site personnel regarding past and present activities. At certain sites, ground-penetrating radar was used to look for underground structures or buried equipment.
Through the inspections conducted so far, we have obtained a good knowledge of the industrial and scientific landscape of Iraq, as well as of its missile capability but, as before, we do not know every cave and corner. Inspections are effectively helping to bridge the gap in knowledge that arose due to the absence of inspections between December 1998 and November 2002.
More than 200 chemical and more than 100 biological samples have been collected at different sites. Three-quarters of these have been screened using our own analytical laboratory capabilities at the Baghdad Centre (BOMVIC). The results to date have been consistent with Iraq's declarations.
We have now commenced the process of destroying approximately 50 litres of mustard gas declared by Iraq that was being kept under UNMOVIC seal at the Muthanna site. One-third of the quantity has already been destroyed. The laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, which we found at another site, has also been destroyed.
The total number of staff in Iraq now exceeds 250 from 60 countries. This includes about 100 UNMOVIC inspectors, 15 IAEA inspectors, 50 aircrew, and 65 support staff. Mr. President,
In my 27 January update to the Council, I said that it seemed from our experience that Iraq had decided in principle to provide cooperation on process, most importantly prompt access to all sites and assistance to UNMOVIC in the establishment of the necessary infrastructure. This impression remains, and we note that access to sites has so far been without problems, including those that had never been declared or inspected, as well as to Presidential sites and private residences.
In my last updating, I also said that a decision to cooperate on substance was indispensable in order to bring, through inspection, the disarmament task to completion and to set the monitoring system on a firm course. Such cooperation, as I have noted, requires more than the opening of doors. In the words of resolution 1441 (2002) - it requires immediate, unconditional and active efforts by Iraq to resolve existing questions of disarmament - either by presenting remaining proscribed items and programmes for elimination or by presenting convincing evidence that they have been eliminated. In the current situation, one would expect Iraq to be eager to comply. While we were in Baghdad, we met a delegation from the Government of South Africa. It was there to explain how South Africa gained the confidence of the world in its dismantling of the nuclear weapons programme, by a wholehearted cooperation over two years with IAEA inspectors. I have just learned that Iraq has accepted an offer by South Africa to send a group of experts for further talks.
How much, if any, is left of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and related proscribed items and programmes? So far, UNMOVIC has not found any such weapons, only a small number of empty chemical munitions, which should have been declared and destroyed. Another matter - and one of great significance - is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document, which Iraq provided, suggested to us that some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were "unaccounted for". One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist. However, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented.
We are fully aware that many governmental intelligence organizations are convinced and assert that proscribed weapons, items and programmes continue to exist. The US Secretary of State presented material in support of this conclusion. Governments have many sources of information that are not available to inspectors. Inspectors, for their part, must base their reports only on evidence, which they can, themselves, examine and present publicly. Without evidence, confidence cannot arise.

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 08:03 PM
:rolleyes: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 08:07 PM
I have FIVE words for you (and I saw that briefing on CSPAN too)
THAT BRIEFING WAS UTTER BULLSHIT.
Said the same thing at the time. Hans Blix had his own agenda. He made MANY contradictory comments day after day.
If you take his statements at face value, then why would you not take GWs?
Let me guess, did you protest the war before it happened???

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 08:54 PM
So who's briefing did you use? What are your sources?
Hans Blix was IN IRAQ and his team consisted of MANY American scientists. Why would anyone make up stories that these people purposely tried to thwart the efforts to find WMD in Iraq? These are just more of the same preposterous accusations with no basis in any truth.
I am analytical, and look at what makes most sense. I also look at who has most to gain in each circumstance.
The way I see it, the UN Inspection process was not yielding what Bush had hoped it would yield. (As I said before, I don't think Bush ever expected them to resume in the first place). He needed some positive results of WMD for him to convince more countries to become our allies in the war on Iraq, and that was not happening, so the UN Inspections (that he asked for in the first place) were abandoned.
That's when "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was born. Basically overnight, we found ourselves being touted as "liberators" by our President. We were now going to save all Iraqis from a tyrant.
I found it totally odd that the idea of liberating Iraqis had not even been mentioned before this. Not until the WMD's could not be found.

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Miss BK
So who's briefing did you use? What are your sources?
Hans Blix was IN IRAQ and his team consisted of MANY American scientists. Why would anyone make up stories that these people purposely tried to thwart the efforts to find WMD in Iraq? These are just more of the same preposterous accusations with no basis in any truth.
I am analytical, and look at what makes most sense. I also look at who has most to gain in each circumstance.
The way I see it, the UN Inspection process was not yielding what Bush had hoped it would yield. (As I said before, I don't think Bush ever expected them to resume in the first place). He needed some positive results of WMD for him to convince more countries to become our allies in the war on Iraq, and that was not happening, so the UN Inspections (that he asked for in the first place) were abandoned.
That's when "Operation Iraqi Freedom" was born. Basically overnight, we found ourselves being touted as "liberators" by our President. We were now going to save all Iraqis from a tyrant.
I found it totally odd that the idea of liberating Iraqis had not even been mentioned before this. Not until the WMD's could not be found.
Lets see, I listened to his press conferences day after day leading up to the presentation to the security council. Even the CNN news anchors were scratching their heads as to the seeming discrepancies between his press conferences and his presentation. In fact just days before his briefing he made a reference to thousands of pounds of biological agents that were unaccounted for.
You are so sure of yourself...but you are wrong, and I am calling bullshit just like I did on good old Johannes.
I am not going to argue with you. We did a good thing taking out Saddam. It was long frigging overdue. I don't give a crap if there wasn't as much as a goddamn can of Raid in the country when we invaded.
He had responsibilites under the cease fire agreement of 1991. FYI, the gulf war was never ended, but a cease fire was declared IF Saddam complied with certain requirements.
One was weapons inspections. So were reparations.
He constantly hid items, costantly confused, confounded and frustrated the inspectors. Finally he decided to just kick them out of the country. Monitors and cameras were removed from storage facilities and he moved and hid materials all over the country. Good ol Billybob Clinton lobbed a few cruise missles at him and called it good.
His lack of cooperation and ultimate removal of the inspectors was enough violation under the resolutions from the U(seless) N(othing) to invade his shitty little berg and kick his ass all the way to Paris.
Fact is no one really knew what he had in country. Doesn't matter, it was his responsibility to ACTIVELY comply with the inspections. That doesn't mean unlocking and opening doors, it means accounting for ALL materials and facilitating the inspections.
The Iraqis did not. Don't give a shit what Johannes said. They did not.
Iraq should have been invaded in 1998 when they kicked the inspectors out in the first place. But the Friggin U(seless) N(othing) didn't give a crap. And either did Billybob Clinton.
Believe what you want, you seem all too ready to believe Moveon.org or any of the other BS leftist websites.
I really don't care what you think. But I do believe that you were out there protesting the war before it happened.
You speak the same naive peacenik BS rhetoric that makes my blood boil, whenever I hear it.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 10:41 PM
Well, you outlined reasons we should be pissed at Saddam, but not one reason why we needed to go to war and lose the lives of so many of our loyal men and women.
There are dozens of countries which are far more a threat to us than that. With some sort of actual proof to boot!
I just want our President to give me STRAIGHT FACTS and not give me spin after spin on just what the heck we are doing. We deserve something with proof, something that has substance, not just foggy & confusing rhetoric. What really is our objective? If it is terrorism, then show me how ousting Saddam will do anything about terrorism in OUR country. So far, the two are not even remotley connected.
We helped to elect him, so some REAL evidence of why we need to risk so many soldiers lives should be the LEAST he could do for us.
IMO, I don't think that is too much to ask.
And I don't think any American should ever be afraid to ask our leadership what the real truth is. Nobody should ever be criticized for that.

Dr. Eagle
12-15-2003, 10:47 PM
No I outlined reasons why he should have been invaded and removed.
NOT JUST WHY WE SHOULD BE PISSED AT HIM...
:confused:
You just ain't gonna get it...
I hate Peacenicks.....:eek:
Let me ask you this...do you think you got the truth from Clinton?
Oh and are you EVER gonna answer my question?
WERE YOU OUT PROTESTING THE WAR BEFORE IT STARTED (OR DURING OR AFTER FOR THAT MATTER)???

Miss BK
12-15-2003, 11:38 PM
WERE YOU OUT PROTESTING THE WAR BEFORE IT STARTED (OR DURING OR AFTER FOR THAT MATTER)???
No, I was not out protesting. I completely stood behind Bush on his decision to go to Afghanistan and find the people responsible for 9-11.
But when that focus suddenly shifted to Iraq, I damn sure did spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time in church, PRAYING that whatever was driving Bush to send troops to war in Iraq, that the cause be just and pure; that his motive was real; and not merely a payback to the oil industry for their contributions to his elections, like the paybacks he gave to the drug industry in the Patriot Act.
My father served in WWII.
My brother and my brother in law served in Vietnam.
My nephew served in Somalia.
My best friend will retire from the Air Force next year.
So I kinda know how deep the sacrifice is that our men will make for our country, and I'm not about to sacrifice one of my family members purely for greed.
If you think that its only the "peaceniks" who care if a war is waged over greed and money, you better think again.

Freak
12-16-2003, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by BUSTI
Toten,
Never did I say that any innocents deserved to die. What I was saying was that a cpmplete and total commdenation of Islam is needed by the civilized world. What Muslims believe in all over the world, as a rule, has a zero net positive effect on the world. I said they bring nothing to world table that advances or enhances mankind. They don't invent anything! They do not exend human rights to their own people. they foster murder in every society that islam breeds in. have you ever heard of honor killings in Muslim countries?
The world of Islam teaches anti semetism and racism through out its teachings. it is a gutter religion that is a front for a global criminal conspiracy tas amount to the most violent "mens" club in the world's history! They treat their womwn like shit and as I said this cult like organization only thrives in poor uneducated slum like countries. when i said that if every Muslim suddenly disappeared off the face of the globe would the world be better off? I meant that this bullshit religion has no positive effect on humanity and the world would be better off with out Islam. does not mean that I advocate the killing of innocent men, women, and children. Just that a recognition that their lives will be a net zero to the world if they are folowers of Islam.
If you diagree then please list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism, oh please show me any muslim societies bill of rights, classical music, computers, fianancial products, space deveopment...any thig that you think this gutter trash has contributed. as a society they have contributed nothing but pain to the world and continue to do so.
Just read the reports of what the arab street thinks of saddams capture. The sooner islam dies in this world the better the world will be. Does that mean i want to kill them all...no just most of them! i would chose innocent American lives over Muslims any day of the week and five times on Sunday!!!
Lets be clear we would all be better off with out them!
Busti
Challenge taken! Never have I read a more undereducated and bigoted comment. Obviously you no nothing about true Muslims. Your rant should have been directed to a few particular sects of this religion that have gone off the deep end. Just like other religions, they have a their bad apples. Pick up a book, any book of science, history, mathematics, jurisprudence, architecture or medicine and you will see the enormous contributions Islam has made.
As you requested. Here are some links for more info:
Sciences
Scientific Inventions
Astronomy
Mathematics
Medical Sciences
Hospitals in Medieval Islam
Political Science
Geography, Travels and Exploration
Industrial Progress
Commerce
Agriculture
Libraries
Painting
Architecture - Part 1
Architecture - Part 2
Fine and Minor Arts
Muslim Social Order - Part 1
Muslim Social Order - Part 2
Economic System of Islam
Muslim Philosophy
http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html
Medicine:
http://islam-usa.com/im3.html and
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4482/article32.htm
To learn more about Islam the religion:
http://www.alislam.org
The very language of science is the Arabic numerals. Algebra and Geometry are Arabic words from their creators in Muslim countries.
Almost all of the western civilization classic literature, both Greek and the Roman was lost to the Europeans. It was rediscovered, cherished, preserved and translated by the Muslims / Islamic culture of Moorish Spain in their 550 year rule during the rest of Europe's 'dark ages.' Here were the first universities in the world, the finest hospitals, and every manner of philosophy and scientific thought.
In fact, the very age of enlightenment that heralded Europe's emergence from its slumber is directly attributable to the influence of the scholars from Muslim / Islamic Spain.
From the 7th to the 18th century, Islam and its adherents the Muslims were the vanguards of human civilization. From that point on the torch has largely been carried by the secular West and that by no means exclusively.
Don't forget were you got it.
That is an Eleven (11) Hundred year track record of excellence; I challenge you to find any other religion on the planet that can rival this.

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Miss BK
WERE YOU OUT PROTESTING THE WAR BEFORE IT STARTED (OR DURING OR AFTER FOR THAT MATTER)???
No, I was not out protesting. I completely stood behind Bush on his decision to go to Afghanistan and find the people responsible for 9-11.
But when that focus suddenly shifted to Iraq, I damn sure did spend a CONSIDERABLE amount of time in church, PRAYING that whatever was driving Bush to send troops to war in Iraq, that the cause be just and pure; that his motive was real; and not merely a payback to the oil industry for their contributions to his elections, like the paybacks he gave to the drug industry in the Patriot Act.
My father served in WWII.
My brother and my brother in law served in Vietnam.
My nephew served in Somalia.
My best friend will retire from the Air Force next year.
So I kinda know how deep the sacrifice is that our men will make for our country, and I'm not about to sacrifice one of my family members purely for greed.
If you think that its only the "peaceniks" who care if a war is waged over greed and money, you better think again.
Ok, like I said you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't happen to share it. And sorry, your rhetoric is all too familiar...:rolleyes:
And my Dad served in WWII
Brother in Vietnam
Son in Bosnia/Kosovo and Korea staring the commies down.

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Busti
Challenge taken! Never have I read a more undereducated and bigoted comment. Obviously you no nothing about true Muslims. Your rant should have been directed to a few particular sects of this religion that have gone off the deep end. Just like other religions, they have a their bad apples. Pick up a book, any book of science, history, mathematics, jurisprudence, architecture or medicine and you will see the enormous contributions Islam has made.
As you requested. Here are some links for more info:
Sciences
Scientific Inventions
Astronomy
Mathematics
Medical Sciences
Hospitals in Medieval Islam
Political Science
Geography, Travels and Exploration
Industrial Progress
Commerce
Agriculture
Libraries
Painting
Architecture - Part 1
Architecture - Part 2
Fine and Minor Arts
Muslim Social Order - Part 1
Muslim Social Order - Part 2
Economic System of Islam
Muslim Philosophy
http://www.netmuslims.com/info/contributions.html
Medicine:
http://islam-usa.com/im3.html and
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4482/article32.htm
To learn more about Islam the religion:
http://www.alislam.org
The very language of science is the Arabic numerals. Algebra and Geometry are Arabic words from their creators in Muslim countries.
Almost all of the western civilization classic literature, both Greek and the Roman was lost to the Europeans. It was rediscovered, cherished, preserved and translated by the Muslims / Islamic culture of Moorish Spain in their 550 year rule during the rest of Europe's 'dark ages.' Here were the first universities in the world, the finest hospitals, and every manner of philosophy and scientific thought.
In fact, the very age of enlightenment that heralded Europe's emergence from its slumber is directly attributable to the influence of the scholars from Muslim / Islamic Spain.
From the 7th to the 18th century, Islam and its adherents the Muslims were the vanguards of human civilization. From that point on the torch has largely been carried by the secular West and that by no means exclusively.
Don't forget were you got it.
That is an Eleven (11) Hundred year track record of excellence; I challenge you to find any other religion on the planet that can rival this.
This of course presumes that religion is good. I believe that ALL reglion is at its core evil as it seeks to subjugate and control the polulace. Many too many people have died over differences of religion, not meaning to speak out of turn, but I am sure God does not approve.

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 06:26 AM
Oh and BTW, sure you are not Catmando with a different handle?
What do you think everyone?
:confused:

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 06:46 AM
Oh yeah and back to this threads subject...
SCREW EUROPE:rolleyes:

Freak
12-16-2003, 07:44 AM
Where did I state that religion was good or bad? I stated that some good has come from people in a religion when someone stated that nothing has. From your reply I gather you have never been out of the country to see many nice people and places to live other than the USA. I found this out while serving our great county in the ARMY. Generalizing a complete race or religion because of some bad people is stupidity at itÂ’s finest.
What is up with this Catmanpuke stuff. Lets get something straight right now. I am republican, Methodist who stands behind our president and I think the war is necessary.
Expand your little mindÂ…..

Blown 472
12-16-2003, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
No I outlined reasons why he should have been invaded and removed.
NOT JUST WHY WE SHOULD BE PISSED AT HIM...
:confused:
You just ain't gonna get it...
I hate Peacenicks.....:eek:
Let me ask you this...do you think you got the truth from Clinton?
Oh and are you EVER gonna answer my question?
WERE YOU OUT PROTESTING THE WAR BEFORE IT STARTED (OR DURING OR AFTER FOR THAT MATTER)???
So, lemme get this right, if we question our leaders we are peacenicks?? and the people who fallow blindly are what?? sheep??
The truth is all politicians are corrupt, we accept a certain level of it as long as we are getting our own, ie good economy etc, but when that starts to wain we start looking at them. But to just take their word at face value becuse they fed you a line of shit to get elected is just stupid.

twistedpair
12-16-2003, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Blown 472
The truth is all politicians are corrupt, we accept a certain level of it as long as we are getting our own, ie good economy etc, but when that starts to wain we start looking at them. But to just take their word at face value becuse they fed you a line of shit to get elected is just stupid.
Can I get an AMEN from the congregation!

Miss BK
12-16-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by twistedpair
Can I get an AMEN from the congregation!
AMEN!!!!!

OLDRAT
12-16-2003, 09:52 AM
Amen!!!

JakeAisA
12-16-2003, 11:54 AM
Hey FREAK, do you realize that your list of “Muslim Contributions” proves Busti’s point? He said:
If you diagree then please list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism, oh please show me any muslim societies bill of rights, classical music, computers, fianancial products, space deveopment...any thig that you think this gutter trash has contributed. as a society they have contributed nothing but pain to the world and continue to do so.
MOST OF THE “CONTRIBUTIONS” YOU CITE ARE OVER 1,000 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THESE “CONTRIBUTIONS” THAT ARE AFTER 1300AD!!!!
Man, you are an idiot. Who goes out and burns their own ass? You ****ing proved yourself wrong. Why? Just let it go. What a jerk ass.
That is an Eleven (11) Hundred year track record of excellence; I challenge you to find any other religion on the planet that can rival this.
In terms of it's net benefit to society, the planet? How about every religion that has ever existed. Satan worshipers have harmed millions fewer. Islam seeks a return to the primivitive. There isn't one free Muslim state in the world. Murder, rape and brutallity are social norms throughout the Muslim world and you're saying that a couple of inventions 1,000 years ago offset that? Jesus are you screwd up! Should we forgive Osama for flying airplanes into the Pentagona and WTC becuase his 30th removed great grandfather discovered a planet in 900 AD? Give me a break.

BUSTI
12-16-2003, 12:11 PM
Freak,
Your pathetic attempt to legitimize muslims as great modern thinkers only makes my point. That irrelevent list of accomplishments spaning 100 years is a listing od stone age discoveries.
YOU FAILED TO DEMONSTRATE WHERE THIS CULTURE/RELIGION HAS MADE THE HUMAN CONDITION ANY BETTER..AND I MEAN IN THE LAST 500 YEARS?
your response is the most uneducated attempt to answer a serious question. what the hell have the Muslins, particularly the arab muslims, of the world done to make the world a better place since the industrial revolution? Fuching nothing you idiot!!!!!!!! They taker up valuable space on the planet and murder people with greater frequency than anybody since Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot! The only spectacular event those assholes history recently is that WE THE AMERICANS, SHOWED THEM HOW TO GET THE OIL OUT OF THE GROUND THAT THOSE ARAB ASSHOLES WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO BORN OVER!
My major at the christian college i attended was religious studies including the world of Islam. I have picked up a book or two in my day about these mystics called Muslims and I am convinced that that at its core Islam, from its prophet has encouraged this wave of violence against humanity. The koran teaches tolerance in many of its teachings how ever it also teaches zero tolerance for non believers. Mohamed was a physopathic hippocrit who confused his followers by practicing something different than he preached.
Your obsurd listing of stoneage accomplishments of islam only shows your lack of intellectual honesty by refusing to admitt that the Muslims are for the most part a zero contributor to making the world a better place over the last 500 years. And I say 500 years just to give you the opportunity to find something relevent!
Where are their Henry Fords, Thomas Edisons, Bill Gates, Bethevons, or their general Motors, or Sony Corps? Lets face it it can't be that they haven't had the money. Or better yet where are their statesmens like Churchill, Gahndi or Thomas Jeffersons?
You reduce your arguements to calling me a bigot. well deal with it I have the balls to call it like it is. Apologists like can't deal with the harsh reality of the truth that this people as a rule are wastiods and the world would be better off with out them or their gutter religion.
I WANT YOU TO FULLY UNDERSTAND MY POSITION. LESS THERE BE NO MISUNDERSTANDING1 WHEN THE FUCHING IGNORANT ARAB MUSLIMS BE FREEDOM LOVING, FREEDOM DEFENDING RIGHT THINKING CAPITALISTS THAT CAST OFF THEIR MYSTIC DRIVEN ROBES OF VIOLENCE AND HATE MAYBE AND ONLY MAYBE THEN WILL I CONSIDER THEM WORTHY OF US NOT KEEPING THEM THE NUMBER ONE TARGET FOR OUR NUCLEAR BOMBS.
I am only interested in how well a socoety lives in regard to respecting the personal freedoms of its people and its neighbors. Enemies of the freedom should be hunted down and destroyed.
Enemies of reason and capitalism should be in our cross hairs for targeting at all times as it those types that wish to kill us...and I only after all think of the Muslims as they think of us infidels.
SCREW THEM AND THOSE THAT APOLOGIZE FOR THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

Blown 472
12-16-2003, 12:32 PM
Enemies of reason and capitalism should be in our cross hairs for targeting at all times as it those types that wish to kill us...and I only after all think of the Muslims as they think of us infidels.
Enemies of capitalism?? so the all mighty dollar drives everything and those who dont secum to it should be killed??? pretty sad when money drives your life, do you have any humanity?? do you know any muslims??

JakeAisA
12-16-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Enemies of reason and capitalism should be in our cross hairs for targeting at all times as it those types that wish to kill us...and I only after all think of the Muslims as they think of us infidels.
Enemies of capitalism?? so the all mighty dollar drives everything and those who dont secum to it should be killed??? pretty sad when money drives your life, do you have any humanity?? do you know any muslims??
Capitalism is freedom. Freedom drives our lives because without it were animals. Free thought requires the freedom of action and happiness in not possible without either. Muslims are seeking the massacre of the free and everything we produce with our freedom--goods, services, houses, food, time and happiness. If this capitalism is sad then I don't any part of your "humanity".

BUSTI
12-16-2003, 02:22 PM
Blown,
Capitalism is not just about money! Capitalism is the only economic system that is also aphilosophy. The basic structure of capitalism that is at its core matter is the establishment of property rights. These rights are essential to a free socoeity! These rights are commonly referred to as individual rights. the right to your own mind , your own happiness and your pursuit of it are all fundamental "property" rights. The right of a man to his own labor and the fruits of his labor so that he can freely trade with other free men is the corner stone of capitalism!
Capitalism is the only system that holds such propriotory rights of ones one life, liberty and personal effort sacred to the individual. They cannot be abrifged by the masses for the greater good of the gang. Under capitalism these individual rights are never to be infringed on by a another individual, nor a group nor a government. capitalism holds that no man should exist for another. And that no man has the right to ask another man to live for him.
Capitalism thrives by all capitalists practicing the ideas of reason, personal achievement, respect for others individual rights that include personal property rights. This concept thrives in America because we here practice the above ideas and it is best described as the virtues of selfishness. Everyday Americans work themselves and their families not for the greater good of somebody else...such as a government or a religion such as Islam.
Yes the ability to make money is part of it...but that is really a result of capitalism not the cause of Capitalism. How ever the term to make money is uniquely capitalistic. Prior to capitalsim wealth or the acumulation of it was accomplished by either inheriting or stealing it from another person.
Communism as practiced in the world today is just a more aggressive form of socialism, but at the point of a gun. Socialism as existing today in France, Canada, and other european nations infringe on the above mentioned personal rights like communism. Now the muslims practice what is called islamo facism. Like Hitler the infringment of personal rights protected by capitalism is infringed upon for the greater good of one dictator (eg. saddam) or one small group like the muhlas of iran.
So when I say that once the fuching arabs can get down with Capitalism or keep them in the cross hairs my aim is to keep an eye on all those people in the world that hate our committment to capitalism and the inherent dedicationton we have to personal property rights rooted in individual rights. And yes bomb those ass holes that are anti capitalist that are bringing terro to us just because we are capitalist..... and the world would be a safer place if we did!

JakeAisA
12-16-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by BUSTI
Blown,
Capitalism is not just about money! Capitalism is the only economic system that is also aphilosophy. The basic structure of capitalism that is at its core matter is the establishment of property rights. These rights are essential to a free socoeity! These rights are commonly referred to as individual rights. the right to your own mind , your own happiness and your pursuit of it are all fundamental "property" rights. The right of a man to his own labor and the fruits of his labor so that he can freely trade with other free men is the corner stone of capitalism!
Capitalism is the only system that holds such propriotory rights of ones one life, liberty and personal effort sacred to the individual. They cannot be abrifged by the masses for the greater good of the gang. Under capitalism these individual rights are never to be infringed on by a another individual, nor a group nor a government. capitalism holds that no man should exist for another. And that no man has the right to ask another man to live for him.
Capitalism thrives by all capitalists practicing the ideas of reason, personal achievement, respect for others individual rights that include personal property rights. This concept thrives in America because we here practice the above ideas and it is best described as the virtues of selfishness. Everyday Americans work themselves and their families not for the greater good of somebody else...such as a government or a religion such as Islam.
Yes the ability to make money is part of it...but that is really a result of capitalism not the cause of Capitalism. How ever the term to make money is uniquely capitalistic. Prior to capitalsim wealth or the acumulation of it was accomplished by either inheriting or stealing it from another person.
Communism as practiced in the world today is just a more aggressive form of socialism, but at the point of a gun. Socialism as existing today in France, Canada, and other european nations infringe on the above mentioned personal rights like communism. Now the muslims practice what is called islamo facism. Like Hitler the infringment of personal rights protected by capitalism is infringed upon for the greater good of one dictator (eg. saddam) or one small group like the muhlas of iran.
So when I say that once the fuching arabs can get down with Capitalism or keep them in the cross hairs my aim is to keep an eye on all those people in the world that hate our committment to capitalism and the inherent dedicationton we have to personal property rights rooted in individual rights. And yes bomb those ass holes that are anti capitalist that are bringing terro to us just because we are capitalist..... and the world would be a safer place if we did!
Amen dude.

BUSTI
12-16-2003, 04:04 PM
Blown
furthermore humanity has never had it so good since the fouding of a pure capitalistic society such as America. To answer your question ...yes I have humanity wife and I give more money to charity than I bet most on these boards. To all kinds of charities! Why do we? Because it makes me feel good. I can afford to donate thousands of dollars per year because we can afford it. Did you know that American capitalists give more money to more charities than the next 5 countries? Why do they? i don't know why but i expect because they can afford to. Americans are the most benevolent people in the world.
Europe per capita gives 80% less than Americans! Why? I don't know....but maybe it has to do with capitalism!

Havasu Cig
12-16-2003, 07:45 PM
DR. Eagle,
Tell your son I said hello.

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Where did I state that religion was good or bad? I stated that some good has come from people in a religion when someone stated that nothing has. From your reply I gather you have never been out of the country to see many nice people and places to live other than the USA. I found this out while serving our great county in the ARMY. Generalizing a complete race or religion because of some bad people is stupidity at itÂ’s finest.
What is up with this Catmanpuke stuff. Lets get something straight right now. I am republican, Methodist who stands behind our president and I think the war is necessary.
Expand your little mindÂ…..
Sorry man, the catmando crack was directed completely elsewhere. As far as religion goes, I didn't mean to infer that you thought one way or another. I was meerly stating my feelings...sorry...;)

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Havasu Cig
DR. Eagle,
Tell your son I said hello.
Thanks Havasu Cig, I'll pass along your greetings...
Thanks again....

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Amen dude.
Ditto!

AzDon
12-16-2003, 09:37 PM
I'm completely at peace with those countries that didn't support us being excluded from the "spoils" of war!
I am, however, having a real hard time accepting that the American people are going to pay for EVERYTHING because Iraq's oil is secured by loans from those countries (and others)!
THOSE LOANS WERE MADE TO A GOVERNMENT THAT NO LONGER EXISTS...THE U.S. IS THE NEW GOVERNMENT OF IRAQ!!! ANY RESOURCES THEY HAD ARE RIGHTFULLY OURS TO APPROPRIATE AS WE PLEASE AND WE SHOULD PUT OURSELVES IN CHARGE OF THESE ASSETS AND STRUCTURE THEIR NEW GOVERNMENT TO OUR LIKING AND ESTABLISH OURSELVES AS THE VIRTUAL PAYMASTERS!!!
If Bush made bad deals to get the lackluster world support he got, simply so that he wouldn't be seen as an imperialist madman, then he sold us (taxpayers) out and he should be tried and severely punished!
WE NEED A PRESIDENT THAT UNDERSTANDS THAT WE WON THE WAR AND ARE ENTITLED TO THE LOSER'S ASSETS!!!

Dr. Eagle
12-16-2003, 09:48 PM
[i]to get the lackluster world support he got, simply so that he wouldn't be seen as an imperialist madman, then he sold us (taxpayers) out and he should be tried and severely punished!
WE NEED A PRESIDENT THAT UNDERSTANDS THAT WE WON THE WAR AND ARE ENTITLED TO THE LOSER'S ASSETS!!! [/B]
Yeah, like Howard Dean:confused: :rolleyes:

AzDon
12-16-2003, 10:24 PM
I personally don't care much about Howard Dean....I think Wes Clark is the fresh start that we need to take the partisan meanness away and deliver our government from the current extremest regime, back to the common sense working folks that pay the biggest share of the taxes, despite earning only 10% of the annual income.
I would love it if a party was established in the center of current ideology with an "AMERICANS FIRST" mantra, and went about the business of getting our jobs back and excluding all foriegn products that are either produced at cheaper wages, or subsidized by their governments. NAFTA and other such agreements are a raw deal for Americans, and we need leaders that are willing to admit this and committ to fixing it!

Freak
12-17-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Sorry man, the catmando crack was directed completely elsewhere. As far as religion goes, I didn't mean to infer that you thought one way or another. I was meerly stating my feelings...sorry...;)
Dr. Eagle
Your a top shelf guy. My apologies to you as we share a beer. :)
Also I feel the need to say do not support the enemy.

Freak
12-17-2003, 05:20 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JakeAisA
Hey FREAK, do you realize that your list of “Muslim Contributions” proves Busti’s point? He said:
[B]If you diagree then please list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism, oh please show me any muslim societies bill of rights, classical music, computers, fianancial products, space deveopment...any thig that you think this gutter trash has contributed. as a society they have contributed nothing but pain to the world and continue to do so.
MOST OF THE “CONTRIBUTIONS” YOU CITE ARE OVER 1,000 YEARS OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE ARE VERY FEW OF THESE “CONTRIBUTIONS” THAT ARE AFTER 1300AD!!!!
[B]Man, you are an idiot. Who goes out and burns their own ass? You ****ing proved yourself wrong. Why? Just let it go. What a jerk ass. [/B}
Jake
First the challenge was to " list all the wonderful accomplishments that Muslims have made in the last 1500 years that has enriched the lives of humnaity...inventions, medical break throughs, government models, philosophy such as capitalism..." And when I do just that, the requirement is switched to "since the industrial revolution." So long as someone keeps moving the goal post, you can never reach it -- this is an old tactic (a thoroughly intellectually dishonest one).
So how did I burn my own ass? I met plenty of Muslims while I served my country in Desert Storm. That do not believe the teachings of this twisted group that has been in power or the terrorists that scurry in caves. They realize these wackos have taken something and twisted it. They also believe to love all people regardless of their religious beliefs. They were also thankful to the point of tears that we were there to help them get out from under the oppressive sickos they lived under. How can you condemn those people? I'm glad the war on terror is being waged. I'm glad Saddam's regime is removed. I'm glad the sickos are being dealt with but all Muslims are not bad.....
I have a Muslim friend who loves the capitalist system and enjoys making money and his freedom. The only thing he would like to revert to the dark ages is the teachings of the Muslim religion before it got twisted and followed by some. Back when it was taught to love all people and to give women rights and so on. He would like to see that now.
I donÂ’t feel a religion is the true basis for what these terrorists do. The wackos use it as a crutch no matter what religion they follow. I believe the driving force for them is hate. From your replyÂ’s, that very same thing the both of you seem to be filled with and unfortunatly preach.

Miss BK
12-17-2003, 05:56 AM
Funny thing about all this hate, is that if you boat anywhere along the Colorado River, between Lake Mead and Havasu, and need emergency medical attention, there is a high chance that the doctor who saves your life just might be a muslim.
Aliyar, Fareed MD - Midwest Diagnostic Heart Center
Saadeh, Saadeh A MD - Havasu Medical Specialists
Alfafara, Ricardo C MD - Colorado River Medical Ctr
Prasad, Channa B MD - Colorado River Medical Ctr
Mirza, Irfan M MD - Southwest Cardiovascular Assoc
Ahmad, Shahab MD - Colorado River Health Svc
Bokari, D S Ismail MD - Bokari D S Ismail MD

Blown 472
12-17-2003, 05:58 AM
But busti, you never answered my question, do you know any muslims?? have you ever sat and talked with them, had dinner with them, been to a family function with them, heard their stories or do you just gleen all of your hate from the whacko religous radio stations?

Miss BK
12-17-2003, 06:22 AM
Here's a link to one of the best powerboat circuits in the world. Everyone here gets along just fine. It is one big family.
http://www.worldracingimages.com/f1boat/start.aspx

Miss BK
12-17-2003, 06:27 AM
How do you like this for a powerboating sports club house?
http://www.worldracingimages.com/f1boat/viewthumb.aspx?rep=01000034&img=010

BUSTI
12-17-2003, 11:13 AM
Blown, Freak, and Bk,
Yes I have met and gotten to know American Muslims often and xtremely well. In fact my cardiologist, my nephreologist(kidney doctor) and indocronologist are all Muslim immigrants from the middle east. I do business frequently with muslims and I have made my views to them clear. These people here in America are living the american dream and enjoying the very freedoms of capitalism that i previously mentioned to you.
The operative words being that they are here in America living freedom loving capitalistic lives. They respect my freedoms amd I respect theirs. We have a trust and respect foreach other based on reason. NOT RACE! NOT RELIGION! NOT ETHNICITY! JUST REASON AND OUR MUTUAL RESPECT FOR EACH OTHERS LIVES AND OUR OWN PURSUIT OF OUR OWN HAPPINESS!
My harsh attitudes for the other Muslims in the world that make war on us and that hate us so much that they fly our own planes into our buildings...yes i hate themand rightly so. I also hate the North Koreans as they are a rogue socoety that not kept in check will probably incnerate one of their neighbors some day with a thermal nuclear device!
Look I don't know about you or values. But mine are simple when it comes to other people in this world. THERE IS ONLY TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE: GOOD OR EVIL PEOPLE! I LOVE GOOD PEOPLE AND DEPISE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES I HATE EVIL PEOPLE. AND I HATE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE GOOD THAT DO EVIL THINGS...EG. RELIGIOUS PEOPLE THAT DO EVIL IN THE NAME OF GOD. SUCH AS HALF THE KNOW ARAB MUSLIM WORLD OR CHRISTIANS THAT BLOW UP ABORTION CLINICS.
I do not believe in the drivel that some of you believe that people are basically good! That is so much bullshit! Good behavior is taught and learned. It is taught to the young by elders that know the difference of right and wrong. Good values are learned behavio. Peole are not just born with respect for others rights they have to be taught it. Right now the muslims across the globe are doing the worse job as a whole in teaching their children respect for others individual rights and the value of personal freedom.
Do you really believe that the muslims in Iram, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the entire middle east are doing a great job teaching their children to respect their fellow mans right to exercise their own personal freedoms? Do you think this hatred of the west namely America and Israel is jsut acquired by something in the water they drink? It is forced fed to them day and nite to HATE US!
My question to you Blown do you know any Muslims living in Pakistan? Not Dearborn Mi but real muslims from the middle east? If you did then you would know that they hate us.
I am far from being a bigot. Ones color, religion, or national origin means nothing to me. I have one means test. Are you a real capitalist whose life is guided by reason and values rooted in respect and recognition of ones rights personally. If you are then I can rest assured you are an honest person that deserves my respect and friendship why because you are a good person! IF YOU ARE NOT THEN HISTORY HAS TAUGHT ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT TO BE TRUSTED AND THE ODDS ARE YOU WILL DO EVIL THINGS TO ME AND MINE UNDER THE GUISE OF THE GREATER GOOD OF SOME GOVERNMENT, SOME GROUP OR SOME RELIGION!
OR YOU ARE JUST PLAIN EVIL! EITHER WAY I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHATS YOUR MOTIVATION FUCH YOU I HATE YOU.
I LOVE GOOD PEOPLE AND WILL GO TO THE END OF THE WORLD TRYING TO HELP YOU MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER. BUT IF I SUSPECT YOU ARE EVIL.......LOOK OUT CAUSE AS OUR PRESIDENT SAYS..' WE WILL ROOT THEM OUT ,GET ON THE RUN AND BRING'EM TO JUSTICE". AT THE POINT OF A GUN I HOPE.
Life is pretty simple don't lie , cheat, steal, rape or murder and America loves ya even if you are **** ups. Look at Mexico...fuh ups but we love em. France pretty prosperous...but they lie and cheat and have proved to be our enemy so Screw 'em as this thread started out.

JakeAisA
12-17-2003, 11:29 AM
Yeah Busti, I agree. Look, in the Middle East, there are schools everywhere that teach children to hate Jews and Americans. Thier text books, if you lucky enough to go to school, completely rewrites all of history. All history textbooks in the Middle East deny the Holocost occurred. They lie about victories and losses when discussing wars in these text books. There is very little television and radio and there's virtually no free speech. And the heads of all these governments are Muslim! The heads of all these schools and religious centers are Muslim! Islam is has become the biggest philosophy of hate and violence on the planet. Like I said before, bad muslims haven't hi-jacked a good religion though, good muslims have unsuccessfully tried to hijack a bad religion. Muslims who don't hate Jews and America are good Muslims who are the outliers, not the other way around. They're the ones going against the grain. Look, the entire Middle East hates the Jews and hates American because they've been brainwashed.
Did you know that the most popular teeny bop song two years in Egypt, a so-called 'moderate' nation, was entitled "Kill the Jews"? Egypt is the only country in the Middle East that has ever recognized Israel officially. They're supposed to be the most moderate country in the region and thier version of Britney Spears wrote the most popular song of the year entitled "Kill the Jews"? Don't be naive.

Blown 472
12-17-2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by BUSTI
Blown, Freak, and Bk,
Yes I have met and gotten to know American Muslims often and xtremely well. In fact my cardiologist, my nephreologist(kidney doctor) and indocronologist are all Muslim immigrants from the middle east. I do business frequently with muslims and I have made my views to them clear. These people here in America are living the american dream and enjoying the very freedoms of capitalism that i previously mentioned to you.
The operative words being that they are here in America living freedom loving capitalistic lives. They respect my freedoms amd I respect theirs. We have a trust and respect foreach other based on reason. NOT RACE! NOT RELIGION! NOT ETHNICITY! JUST REASON AND OUR MUTUAL RESPECT FOR EACH OTHERS LIVES AND OUR OWN PURSUIT OF OUR OWN HAPPINESS!
My harsh attitudes for the other Muslims in the world that make war on us and that hate us so much that they fly our own planes into our buildings...yes i hate themand rightly so. I also hate the North Koreans as they are a rogue socoety that not kept in check will probably incnerate one of their neighbors some day with a thermal nuclear device!
Look I don't know about you or values. But mine are simple when it comes to other people in this world. THERE IS ONLY TWO TYPES OF PEOPLE: GOOD OR EVIL PEOPLE! I LOVE GOOD PEOPLE AND DEPISE EVIL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES I HATE EVIL PEOPLE. AND I HATE PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE GOOD THAT DO EVIL THINGS...EG. RELIGIOUS PEOPLE THAT DO EVIL IN THE NAME OF GOD. SUCH AS HALF THE KNOW ARAB MUSLIM WORLD OR CHRISTIANS THAT BLOW UP ABORTION CLINICS.
I do not believe in the drivel that some of you believe that people are basically good! That is so much bullshit! Good behavior is taught and learned. It is taught to the young by elders that know the difference of right and wrong. Good values are learned behavio. Peole are not just born with respect for others rights they have to be taught it. Right now the muslims across the globe are doing the worse job as a whole in teaching their children respect for others individual rights and the value of personal freedom.
Do you really believe that the muslims in Iram, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the entire middle east are doing a great job teaching their children to respect their fellow mans right to exercise their own personal freedoms? Do you think this hatred of the west namely America and Israel is jsut acquired by something in the water they drink? It is forced fed to them day and nite to HATE US!
My question to you Blown do you know any Muslims living in Pakistan? Not Dearborn Mi but real muslims from the middle east? If you did then you would know that they hate us.
I am far from being a bigot. Ones color, religion, or national origin means nothing to me. I have one means test. Are you a real capitalist whose life is guided by reason and values rooted in respect and recognition of ones rights personally. If you are then I can rest assured you are an honest person that deserves my respect and friendship why because you are a good person! IF YOU ARE NOT THEN HISTORY HAS TAUGHT ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT TO BE TRUSTED AND THE ODDS ARE YOU WILL DO EVIL THINGS TO ME AND MINE UNDER THE GUISE OF THE GREATER GOOD OF SOME GOVERNMENT, SOME GROUP OR SOME RELIGION!
OR YOU ARE JUST PLAIN EVIL! EITHER WAY I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHATS YOUR MOTIVATION FUCH YOU I HATE YOU.
I LOVE GOOD PEOPLE AND WILL GO TO THE END OF THE WORLD TRYING TO HELP YOU MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER. BUT IF I SUSPECT YOU ARE EVIL.......LOOK OUT CAUSE AS OUR PRESIDENT SAYS..' WE WILL ROOT THEM OUT ,GET ON THE RUN AND BRING'EM TO JUSTICE". AT THE POINT OF A GUN I HOPE.
Life is pretty simple don't lie , cheat, steal, rape or murder and America loves ya even if you are **** ups. Look at Mexico...fuh ups but we love em. France pretty prosperous...but they lie and cheat and have proved to be our enemy so Screw 'em as this thread started out.
So the ones that move here and start a bidness are ok? and the rest are shit, by that rational we should start killing all the whites in this country unless you forgot about the domestic terroism that was brought to oklahoma, where are you in that matter should we track down all the white trash and kill them?? cuz they are evil??

JakeAisA
12-17-2003, 12:22 PM
We executed Timothy McVeigh right? What's your argument? All terrorists deserve to die. All terrorist supporters deserve to die.

Blown 472
12-17-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
We executed Timothy McVeigh right? What's your argument? All terrorists deserve to die. All terrorist supporters deserve to die.
My point is that you and busti say all muslims are evil because some use terror, so if that is the case then all whites are evil because a few used terror, you can lump a whole race into that stereo type.
There are alot of countries in the world that have muslims and they dont do shit but live.

BUSTI
12-17-2003, 12:31 PM
Blown stop being stupid and posting stupid questions. Muslims that own businesses is not the question. I know alot of evil people in this country that own their own businesses and they are pieces of shit. have n't you comprehended anything I said?
IT IS NOT ABOUT MONEY STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
IT IS ABOUT VALUES AND THE RESPECT FOR OTHERS PERSONAL RIGHTS!!!!!!!!
LOOK AT HOW THOSE FUCHS TREAT THEMSELVES IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES THROUGH OUT THE MIDDLE EAST. THEY MURDER THEMSELVES AND DENY EACH OTHER THE BASIC FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF ALL HUMAN RIGHTS! THAT IS PROPERTY RIGHTS FORM WHICH ALL OTHER HUMAN RIGHTS FLOW!!!
I AM SORRY BUT I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU EITHER ARE JUST ARGUEING TO ARGUE OR YOU ARE VERY STUPID. DO YOU HAVE A PHILOSOPHY/ WHAT IS IT? HOW DO JUDGE GOOD VS. EVIL? DO YOU EMPLOY ANY QUANTATATIVE MECHANICS WHEN EVALUATING THE WORLD AROUND YOU? IHAVE TOLD YOU MINE. THOSE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THAT APPLY REASON AND VIRTUES OF CAPITALISM NAMELY THE RESPECTING OF PROPERTY RIGHTS AND INDIVUIDUAL RIGHTS ARE THE MEANS BY WHICH I JUDGE PEOPLE AND THEIR SOCIETY.
WHAT THE FUCH DO STAND FOR? OTHERS ON THIS POST HAVE AT LEAST MADE RATIONAL POINTS. BUT YOU SEEM TO BE WASTING MY TIME. IT ISN'T IMPORTANT THAT WE AGREE BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT OUR CONVERSATION BE ROOTED IN REASON...MINE IS YOUR'S IS NOT.:yuk:

Blown 472
12-17-2003, 12:52 PM
[i]
IT IS ABOUT VALUES AND THE RESPECT FOR OTHERS PERSONAL RIGHTS!!!!!!!!
So why do we deal with china and give them special treatment? like most favored nation but yet they oppress their people and lock them up.
I AM SORRY BUT I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU EITHER ARE JUST ARGUEING TO ARGUE OR YOU ARE VERY STUPID. DO YOU HAVE A PHILOSOPHY/ WHAT IS IT? HOW DO JUDGE GOOD VS. EVIL? DO YOU EMPLOY ANY QUANTATATIVE MECHANICS WHEN EVALUATING THE WORLD AROUND YOU? IHAVE TOLD YOU MINE. THOSE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD THAT APPLY REASON AND VIRTUES OF CAPITALISM NAMELY THE RESPECTING OF PROPERTY RIGHTS AND INDIVUIDUAL RIGHTS ARE THE MEANS BY WHICH I JUDGE PEOPLE AND THEIR SOCIETY.
I do judge evil and good, I am sorry if I dont lump a group of people into what you have because a few have ****ed it up.
Like I said before you are taking the actions of a few to make up your mind agianst alot of people. You ever wonder why they hate us?? have you looked into what our gubment has done over there?? do they have any reason to hate me?? nope as I have not done anything to them. Unfortunalty they see america as a whole and strike back at it. I am sure if they could get to the people that played games with them they would deal with them.
WHAT THE FUCH DO STAND FOR? OTHERS ON THIS POST HAVE AT LEAST MADE RATIONAL POINTS. BUT YOU SEEM TO BE WASTING MY TIME. IT ISN'T IMPORTANT THAT WE AGREE BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT OUR CONVERSATION BE ROOTED IN REASON...MINE IS YOUR'S IS NOT.:yuk: [/B]
But yet you only answer a few questions and the ones you dont you reply like this.

JakeAisA
12-17-2003, 01:34 PM
Dude, here's the point. Islam is a poor religion. It teaches dependence and it is highly intolerant. Islam needs to be abandoned. I wish these people would convert to something else or reform the religion to drop all the parts that allow violence towards "infedels". Islam needs to be destroyed, the philosophy, or it needs to be reformed, like christianity was 800 years ago. They don't support democracy, they don't support property rights and human rights for those who don't agree with them and they don't support capitalism (freedom). This is a problem. The problems in the Middle East are a direct result of the success of Islam. That's the point. I don't want and Busti doesn't want to kill Muslims, we want to eradicate thier religion. Just because a philosophy is based on a belief in a "god" doesn't excuse it from criticism. The only thing stopping people from accepting Islam as a dufunct philosophy is that they're afraid of ciriticizing someone's beleif in a god...and that is silly.

Blown 472
12-17-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Dude, here's the point. Islam is a poor religion. It teaches dependence and it is highly intolerant. Islam needs to be abandoned. I wish these people would convert to something else or reform the religion to drop all the parts that allow violence towards "infedels". Islam needs to be destroyed, the philosophy, or it needs to be reformed, like christianity was 800 years ago. They don't support democracy, they don't support property rights and human rights for those who don't agree with them and they don't support capitalism (freedom). This is a problem. The problems in the Middle East are a direct result of the success of Islam. That's the point. I don't want and Busti doesn't want to kill Muslims, we want to eradicate thier religion. Just because a philosophy is based on a belief in a "god" doesn't excuse it from criticism. The only thing stopping people from accepting Islam as a dufunct philosophy is that they're afraid of ciriticizing someone's beleif in a god...and that is silly.
Good point, but I think the one think you are missing is the islam it's self is not bad, it is the dictatorships set up on religion using islam as a tool for control that is bad, trust me if the catholics could do that they would.

Freak
12-17-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Dude, here's the point. Islam is a poor religion. It teaches dependence and it is highly intolerant. Islam needs to be abandoned. I wish these people would convert to something else or reform the religion to drop all the parts that allow violence towards "infedels". Islam needs to be destroyed, the philosophy, or it needs to be reformed, like christianity was 800 years ago. They don't support democracy, they don't support property rights and human rights for those who don't agree with them and they don't support capitalism (freedom). This is a problem. The problems in the Middle East are a direct result of the success of Islam. That's the point. I don't want and Busti doesn't want to kill Muslims, we want to eradicate thier religion. Just because a philosophy is based on a belief in a "god" doesn't excuse it from criticism. The only thing stopping people from accepting Islam as a dufunct philosophy is that they're afraid of ciriticizing someone's beleif in a god...and that is silly.
Jake
Excellent reply. This kind makes me enjoy the debate with you. It was well thought and mature. I applaud you.

JakeAisA
12-17-2003, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Blown 472
Good point, but I think the one think you are missing is the islam it's self is not bad, it is the dictatorships set up on religion using islam as a tool for control that is bad, trust me if the catholics could do that they would.
The Catholics did do it once the sad result was the dark ages.

JakeAisA
12-17-2003, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Jake
Excellent reply. This kind makes me enjoy the debate with you. It was well thought and mature. I applaud you.
Thank you.

Freak
12-18-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by JakeAisA
Just because a philosophy is based on a belief in a "god" doesn't excuse it from criticism. The only thing stopping people from accepting Islam as a dufunct philosophy is that they're afraid of ciriticizing someone's beleif in a god...and that is silly.
This will stir some shit up.
Jake did you know Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god?
Allah in Arabic is a contraction for al-ilah, "the-God," and as such is cognate with Hebrew eloh, "god" (plural of abstraction, elohim, "deity"). Linguistic technicalities aside, what matters is that back in the seventh century, the first Muslims were using the same kind of word in Arabic that the Jews were using theologically in Hebrew and using it in the same way.
As evidence that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have always assumed their differences to be about the character rather than the identity of God, take medieval Spain, where people of the three faiths mingled and disagreed with each other about the same divine subject. Thomas Aquinas, for instance, wrote Summa Contra Gentiles in part to refute the Muslim philosopher Ibn Rushd, but he never tried to make the argument that Muslims were praying to a different God.
Muslims have been even clearer about the kinship among all "peoples of the book."
Muslims battled those who worshipped false gods, beginning with the Arab polytheists of Mecca and Medina, but they officially tolerated Jews and Christians because they understood the latter to be worshipping the one true God, the God or, in Arabic, Allah.
Bush said the very same thing a while ago.

JakeAisA
12-18-2003, 11:54 AM
Freak,
I do know the story about Abraham. Abraham had a child with his slave becuase his wife, Sarah, couldn't conceive. This child's name was Ishmael. When Ishmael was still a child, God decided to make Abraham and his wife Sarah the next "Adam and Eve" of the Jews by making Sarah fertile at age 90. Sarah, after being able to conveive now, made Abraham cast out into the desert his slave, Hagar, and his son with her, Ishmael. Ishmael was blessed by god since he was the son of Abraham and supposedly he went off to create a kingdom. Ishmael is beleived to be the first bedouin or Arab. The Jews, through Abraham's other son with Sarah, Issaac, worship the god of Abraham. The Muslims also worship through the same god, the god of Abraham, through Abrahams other son, Ishmael.
One of the reasons the Arabs hate Jews so much is because of this very thing. Abraham was forced to cast out Ishmael and Hagar becuase Sarah told him to do it. Abraham loved Hagar and his son Ishmael but he cast them out anyway. The Muslims are fond of Abraham, but obviously not Sarah. This is thousands of years old story from Genesis and basically the Arabs feel like Sarah forced Abraham to treat them like worthless bastards.
The connection with the Christians is simple. Christians are Jews that beleive Christ was the Messiah.
You haven't stirred anything up; you've allowed me to shed light on the Muslims issues with Jews and Christians.
Thanks.
More on this story:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/abraham.html

Freak
12-19-2003, 06:28 PM
Sorry for the late reply. I've been out shopping. Nothin better than the last minute. Anyway you might want to read the story again I think your interpretation is a little misguided. It's not long
Muslims do not believe that Hagar the mother of Ishmail was just a slave of Abraham. They believe that since Sara couldn't conceive, Abraham married one of his servants, Hagar. This was a legitimate custom of those days (remember not everyone in the world had/has a problem with polygamy).
They further DO NOT believe that Hagar was cast out to the desert by Abraham at the insistence of Sara. Muslims think that Allah/God Himself commanded Abraham to leave his wife and child in the desert. Perhaps this was another trial much as He had previously asked Abraham to "sacrifice his son."
And since Muslims do not blame Sara or Abraham, they DO NOT hate the Jews or the Jesus following Jews / the Christians.
If they did hate such people, frankly, neither a single Jew or a single Christian would have survived in much of the known world outside of Europe because the Muslims ruled over them for centuries!
On the contrary the Christians certainly have displayed their hatred for both the Muslims and the Jews consistantly and throughout history by initiating the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Colonialisation, Nazism etc. etc.
How ironic given the instructions from Jesus himself:
"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward in heaven will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." (Jesus as quoted by Luke 6:35)
"Whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 7:12)
'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:37-40)
Jake, you just as I hate (and I know I will have to deal with that on judgement day) terrorists not Muslims. I mean real Muslims not ones that have never read the book. Those that just listen to others spew bile and believe them are sheep. Including those fools you come across preaching on the streets in the USA with a bull horn. Those are not Muslims. The use a religion they have twisted to fit their needs and hide behind. Can you think of a better way to recruit the radicals they need to fight for them?