in's and out's of flat bottoms

[Blown 472]

I am kicking around the idea of a flat bottom, just concerned with where I can take it and looking for some input, I know they wont take big rollers and really rough water but what else should one know about them and the conditions you can run them in.

[78Eliminator]

Why am I not surprised to read this? :D

[superdave013]

Blown, I'm speaking from a runner bottom drag boat point of view. I've never had or driven a roundy round boat.
But with a runner bottom when people say, "it's not that rough"
Well that really means that it's prolly to rough to run your boat.
With that said. Nothing is more fun to drive then a kick ass runner bottom. Well, nothing that I've driven to date.
I used to run mine early AM and then park it for the rest of the day most weekends. Was it worth it? Oh HELL YES!!
If I had the space for 2 boats I'ed get another one in a hartbeat.
Wacking the throttle in a kick ass flat is better then sex if you ask me.

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by superdave013
Blown, I'm speaking from a runner bottom drag boat point of view. I've never had or driven a roundy round boat.
But with a runner bottom when people say, "it's not that rough"
Well that really means that it's prolly to rough to run your boat.
With that said. Nothing is more fun to drive then a kick ass runner bottom. Well, nothing that I've driven to date.
I used to run mine early AM and then park it for the rest of the day most weekends. Was it worth it? Oh HELL YES!!
If I had the space for 2 boats I'ed get another one in a hartbeat.
Wacking the throttle in a kick ass flat is better then sex if you ask me.
That is just what I was looking for, I am going to keep my jet for a cruiser but want a kick ass v drive to take out late afternoons or early mornings.
Flattie brought his flat out to the lake where I hang out and it seemed to do pretty good in the chop that was out there.
It's your fault 78.:D

[Hud]

If you have a good back & some balls its never to ruff! If you want to go fast, a runner bottom is were its at. If you want to go faster get a hydro. It would be around 25 mph faster with the same motor! Just my 3 1/2 cents!

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

It would be around 25 mph faster with the same motor! Just my 3 1/2 cents! Why? Less drag on a hydro hull? Are they lighter?

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Hud
If you have a good back & some balls its never to ruff! If you want to go fast, a runner bottom is were its at. If you want to go faster get a hydro. It would be around 25 mph faster with the same motor! Just my 3 1/2 cents!
Runner bottom has the tabs at two different levels looking from the back??
Also should I look for a boat that has a peddle for the trim tabs or a locking handle or do they come with both?? When you launch the boat do you keep the tabs down and then trim them up as you are going?

[HavasuDreamin']

Originally posted by Blown 472
Runner bottom has the tabs at two different levels looking from the back??
Also should I look for a boat that has a peddle for the trim tabs or a locking handle or do they come with both?? When you launch the boat do you keep the tabs down and then trim them up as you are going?
Not that I am an expert or anything, but from what I have learned through reading, the handle is old school .......ski boat type stuff. You need one pedal (down) with a stiff spring. And they are cavitation plates, not trim tabs. :p
Runner bottom has three cav plates. Two on the outside, and one in the center lower than the other two (runner drops down).

[superdave013]

Make sure the boat has a down pedal. Most have a locking handle that can be over ridden by pushing the down pedal.
That's what makes the flats different. You will be busy working the down pedal/plates. I'll let someone like guru explain that process

[Blown 472]

Do you have to be on them all the time or can you set them in one spot with the handle?

[coolchange]

Don't do it! Their noisy, uncomfortable, hard on the back, don't seat many people, loud, wet, etc. Flat drivers are always the first on the water ruinin the glass and then they just sit around the beach all day with people buggin them for rides and tellin the chicks "maybe later". I sold my flat along time ago and was happy when it went and have had several dif boats since then. Oh ya thenthere's the addiction part.
<------Have you seen my new boat?:D

[superdave013]

Originally posted by Blown 472
Do you have to be on them all the time or can you set them in one spot with the handle?
The only time it will be set in one spot is when you're givin your grandma a ride.
Unlike a hydro, you have to really drive a flat. That's what makes them so fun!

[SANGER-RICH]

So is a runner bottom still considered a flat even though the center cav is lower than the outside cavs???:confused: :confused: and the issue with the cav plate , do you have to be on it all the time with your left foot???? I was in mine when at Martys gig with my foot on the gas and the other on the pedel my hands were griped tightly to the steering wheel and my ass was not touching the seat. I must need to do alot more work to this boat before I can understand what is so great about v-drive flats.

[Rexone]

Originally posted by SANGER-RICH
So is a runner bottom still considered a flat even though the center cav is lower than the outside cavs???:confused: :confused: and the issue with the cav plate , do you have to be on it all the time with your left foot???? I was in mine when at Martys gig with my foot on the gas and the other on the pedel my hands were griped tightly to the steering wheel and my ass was not touching the seat. I must need to do alot more work to this boat before I can understand what is so great about v-drive flats.
In a general categorizing yes a runner would fall into the general termanology of flats. But it's a very distinct subcategory. And flats as a main category probably only exists as such because true flats came first then runners came along as a way to go faster. Confused now? :D
See the truth now thread for some explanation on foot overrides as it explains the left foot dealio.

[DansBlown73Nordic]

In my Nordic I just have a T-Handle. With my new motor im sure it will have alot more power. Im not sure if this T-Handle will work.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Blown 472
I am kicking around the idea of a flat bottom.....
You're not the only one Blown...;)
Don't get me wrong...I love my jet. And I have no intention of selling it. I like the distinctive handling characteristics of a jet-drive and I like putting around at the lake and flirting with the babes. I've been to the open end of Berryessa I-don't-know-how-many-times and seen chop, and all the flattie guys hangin' out with the silver bullets and they're boats on the trailer 'cause it's "too rough." And then I launch and head out. And I want to be able to launch when I go to the lake--especially if I bring the girls...who, by the way, seem to like the big phallic rooster tails....so I'll keep my Southwind Formula I Jet as my primary lake boat.
But...but...but--(hold on here v-drive guys)-- but I also wanna start racing. I'm looking for a drag hull. While I haven't ruled out a tunnel hull jet boat, the v-drives seem to be more plentiful in the racing arena. More for sale, etc.
Got my eye on two race boats right now...one a tunnel dragster and the other a v-drive. I would feel more comfortable getting my feet wet in a tunnel dragster, as I will be more familiar with the handling and propulsion characteristics of a jet drive. But, I could also just put a mild motor in a v-drive, learn to sort it out (set-up wise) and simply get my feet wet in it this first season. And then build a real motor.
Well now...I think those last few sentences sums it up: LakesOnly is looking for a v-drive.:D
LO

[Hud]

Sanger-Rich, if you have to kept your foot on the down pedal all the time, your plates aren't setup right. All the down pedal does is help the boat take a set. After the boat takes a set, you take your foot off of it slowly and hang on!:D

[Hud]

LakesOnly, I have nothing against jet boats at all. The only thing is, it takes about 25 percent more power to run the pump than a v drive. You take a good hard running motor out of a jet boat & put it in a v drive that is setup right and you will go 15- 20 mph faster. Forget about that smooth ride like the jet boat. You know its one thing to run around the lake 70 or 80 in a v bottom jet boat, but you try to go 90 to 100 mph in a v drive runner bottom & you need a little smoother water for that! We don't sit on the trailer because we like to, but it's worth the wait trust me!:D

[Fiat48]

Converted single pedal setup with lockout. Lock the pedal position for "cruising". Unlock it when you "drive" the boat.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/505/374DSCF0019-med.JPG

[Hud]

That pedal setup is the best in my book! I just have the down pedal with no lock handle and its a pain when the wife & I go for a putt!

[Kindsvater Flat]

I have to run a lot of pedal in mine just for the fact my motor sits back. I won't move just because the kids ride in the boat also. I don't want them to close to the headers.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Hud
LakesOnly, I have nothing against jet boats at all. The only thing is, it takes about 25 percent more power to run the pump than a v drive. You take a good hard running motor out of a jet boat & put it in a v drive that is setup right and you will go 15- 20 mph faster.
Very true HUD...in fact, I just got off the phone with 058 and I said the exact same thing to him! That is, with a jet, I could build a monster motor first season and hit maybe 100+, but that same motor in a v-drive might push me to 130. But I just don't think I have any business running a v-drive 130 my first season...so a tunnel hull with a monster motor was one option. The other option I speculate is a v-drive with a mild motor my first season. Hopefully you guys can understand my circumstances and not laugh at me for having a 90 mph v-drive my first year out...welcome me!
Originally posted by Hud
Forget about that smooth ride like the jet boat. You know its one thing to run around the lake 70 or 80 in a v bottom jet boat, but you try to go 90 to 100 mph in a v drive runner bottom & you need a little smoother water for that! We don't sit on the trailer because we like to, but it's worth the wait trust me!:D
Sure okay, but if I go to the lake with my girlie, I want to take her out and putt around and punch it once in awhile and have sex with her on an island somewhere, maybe in a tree this year, I dunno. That's why I want to hold onto my jet boat. Throw a buch of stuff in the back seat and go. Conversely, when I feel like going flat out on the glass, I'll show up at sunrise with you guys and then we'll drink beer at 10 a.m. Works for me!:D Also remember: the v-drive is the one I want to race.
LO

[Kindsvater Flat]

and not laugh at me for having a 90 mph v-drive my first year out...welcome me!
Who's laughing? I'm only in the 80's and I'm happy as hell.:D

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

First off, not all flats are the same. They come in different shapes, sizes and configurations.
Some are rigged with melow motors, lots of seats and a ski tow.
They can and do make great ski boats that are driven all day long.
Some are rigged double throwdown fast that sit on the trailer most of the day.
Some are rigged triple throwdown fast and get driven all day.
I know of a guy with a 110 mph runnerbottom (the Scummer), he drives this thing everywhere, even on weekends at Havasu. I've rode with this guy through topock Gorge and down to the sandbar on a summer, saturday, afternnoon and never saw the tach below 4000 (yes we were airborne alot). Small block mike doesn't worry about water conditions either and has run 109 at the drags.
When I'm not taping outings, I run my flatty all over. Ive been on San Antonio, Millerton, Havasu (memorial weekend twice) Mohave, Mead. I've run the Colorado river everywhere and every local lake in So. Cal a dosen times, even on weekends.
YOU CAN RUN THESE THINGS, look back into the 60's when it was common.
The're very similar to cars, you can build a firebreathing monster (that will need constant maintenance), a dependable stocker, or anything in between.
Yes, you can find a roomier, more comfortable boat. But thats the trade off for... (in my opinion) the best ride on the water.
Sorry for rambling.:cool: :cool: :cool:

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Kindsvater Flat
Who's laughing? I'm only in the 80's and I'm happy as hell.:D
And it works great for you K-Flat, becuase as you stated earlier, the trade-off is that your boat is set up to take your kids out too. And that's just fine.
LO

[Kim Hanson]

Originally posted by Hud
Sanger-Rich, if you have to kept your foot on the down pedal all the time, your plates aren't setup right. All the down pedal does is help the boat take a set. After the boat takes a set, you take your foot off of it slowly and hang on!:D
I'am listening guy's and that really makes sence to me now with the " pedal's".............( . )( . )............

[126driver]

Originally posted by Hud
If you have a good back & some balls its never to ruff! If you want to go fast, a runner bottom is were its at. If you want to go faster get a hydro. It would be around 25 mph faster with the same motor! Just my 3 1/2 cents!
I know you're talking about drag racing, but just ask Brother Dos about the roundy-round flattie vs. hydro dealio. ;) :D

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by V-DRIVE VIDEO
The're very similar to cars, you can build a firebreathing monster (that will need constant maintenance), a dependable stocker, or anything in between....
I think this is what I am going for: A high maintentance race-only v-drive boat and a mild mannered, maintenance-free jet.
LO

[Fiat48]

100 mph not too hard to get. When the Cole TR1 I have now was unblown, it ran 100 mph through the clocks at Red Bluff. It's a heavy weight boat. Engine was a BBC, square port iron heads, 13. 1 compression, roller cam, tunnel ram and 2 660's. Back in the 80's we ran 104 mph with about the same deal in a Hondo 511T. So similar combo is all you need to get started. My advice would be to buy a proven boat that works. You'll find the extra money is far worth it.

[bigkatboat]

I believe you have asked the most important question, when inquiring about 'flatbottoms'. "What are the in's and out's of 'Flatbottoms?" My answer is; Get "in", run it WIDE OPEN, and don't 'fall out'! So I guess, it is more about "in" than "out" if you want to have fun.

[superdave013]

Originally posted by V-DRIVE VIDEO
I know of a guy with a 110 mph runnerbottom (the Scummer), he drives this thing everywhere, even on weekends at Havasu. I've rode with this guy through topock Gorge and down to the sandbar on a summer, saturday, afternnoon and never saw the tach below 4000 (yes we were airborne alot). Small block mike doesn't worry about water conditions either and has run 109 at the drags.
You do make good points about them all being different
But that small block mike guy's number will come up one of these days. He drives that thing with total disregard for anyones saftey. One day he will do the high speed swim.
Smalls summed it up best at Irvine. Watching him is like watching a bad car wreck. You don't want to see it but you just can't turn and look the other way.
I drove my first runner bottom like those two guys. Yup, I blew the bottom out of it twice. The first time it cracked all around the strut, the second time I don't know how I got it on the trailer before it sank. (don't know how I lived through da 20's)

[Hud]

Like Fiat 48 said. If you want a race boat, light weight, then buy a proven boat. Then all you need to do is the motor. T-Bag is doing just what your talking about!

[V-DRIVE VIDEO]

Originally posted by superdave013
You do make good points about them all being different
But that small block mike guy's number will come up one of these days. He drives that thing with total disregard for anyones saftey. One day he will do the high speed swim.
Smalls summed it up best at Irvine. Watching him is like watching a bad car wreck. You don't want to see it but you just can't turn and look the other way.
I drove my first runner bottom like those two guys. Yup, I blew the bottom out of it twice. The first time it cracked all around the strut, the second time I don't know how I got it on the trailer before it sank. (don't know how I lived through da 20's)
I hear ya Dave, and Mike knows we are all holding are breaths from the shore but, the fact remains...he's been gettin away with it for many years. Knock on wood!!
If you want to use and abuse a flatty, it definately needs to be heavy. Leave the potato chip hulls to the racecourse.
Seein guys like Gould, Scummer and Small block Mike, I can't help but wonder what they were like in thier 20's!!!
:D :D :D

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by Hud
Like Fiat 48 said. If you want a race boat, light weight, then buy a proven boat. Then all you need to do is the motor. T-Bag is doing just what your talking about!
Reason I say buy a proven boat. I had 4 boats when I ran PGF. Then I got a Canyon Marine that ran 10 mph faster on it's first pass. Whole new world. Wasted 5 years of beating my motors to death trying to compete.
Fellow racer in the river racer class had several Coles. Never ran over 118 mph. Paid me to put his motor in my boat and we went to Phoenix. Ran 130 and change out of the box and won the race. Nothin like a proven boat. Wish I never sold it.:mad:

[Rexone]

Fiats logic is sound. You can take 5 boats that are the "same hull", take one engine, and go out and run 5 different numbers with all other conditions and setup identical. Just like props. They are just not all quite the same. When ya get a good one latch onto it.
Flats can "endure" just about any water conditions. Now weather it will be enjoyable running in those conditions is a different answer. The Catalina ski race used to be all flatbottoms. Was it enjoyable? Well maybe for the skier. A whole different level of rough in the Catalina channel than at Parker on it's worse day.
You can survive in a flatty when it rough but you probably will have a sore ass at the end of the day. And not from the typical action those in bench racers seem to gravitate to.
Just don't plan on having fun runnin all day long in conditions found on busy weekends at Parker and Havazoo in a flatty. I used to own one (several actually). But I'd never have one again as my "only" rec. boat. Too limited, and I don't like being a trailer queen and my back don't like the pounding you take mid-day out there.

[LakesOnly]

Originally posted by Fiat48
.... My advice would be to buy a proven boat that works. You'll find the extra money is far worth it.
I think both me and Blown472 can appreciate this advice. In fact, the truth is I've really been quietly looking for some time now and--after looking at several possiblities--quickly realized that I need to raise my spending cap. The cleaner/more properly prepped boat I buy, the less I'll have to sink into it later.
I spent nine months looking for my last boat. I currently have my eye on a v-drive with an impressive history; me and sangermike plan on taking a closer look in person.
LO

[Jetboatguru]

Blown,
The thing you have to realize when you have a flat is you are not running 35 mph over choppy, bumpy water. You are going 10-20 mph "rolling" over the waves. You will be cruising at about 1700 rpms and the nose of the boat will be pointed at 2 O'clock. The boat will just barely be rolled over on plane. It is just something you have to accept, you will not be driving it fast in rough water. You will rattle every nut and bolt out of it and crack the hell out it if you do choose to run fast in bumpy water. You won't be the first one to get anywhere but everybody will be standing by your boat once you do.
The boat that is for sale at Dragboats.com that Hud posted is the perfect boat for the river. It has soem weight behind it and is proven. $6500 is cheap too.

[Blown 472]

What about those flats the circle race? how do they get away with it?

[Hud]

The bottom of the boat is all different than a runner bottom. Talk to Billy B about them. If you want to run the ruff water you would have the best of both worlds. Myself I love the ruff water but my back doesn't since they took out 2 disks!

[Hud]

Blowin 472, checkout the Emshar thread in the v drive section. Its all in what you want to do. Thats a good price on that boat & you could get it a little cheaper too! Be a nice Xmas with that!

[Morg]

Blown,
Also check out the "Circle race is up" thread. The second video of the pro-stocks will give you a pretty good idea of how the circles run in the rough stuff.
The circles are built a bit different from the drag runners. The bottoms are way different & they have forward running bulk heads, (Panels) in the sides of the hull for strength.
Some will argue the circles are slower than the runners, but how often do you get glass at the river? It depends on the conditions as to which is faster.
It really depends what you want to do with the boat.
Like Scott said Dossangers would be a good guy to here from on the circle deal.

[WILDERTHANU]

SUPERDAVE IS RIGHT ABOUT SOME OF THESE DRIVERS. I REALLY DONT ENJOY SEEING SOME GUY PUT HIS NECK ON THE LINE ON PURPOSE, AS WELL AS OTHERS AROUND HIM. STUPID UNSAFE DRIVING IN ANY SPORT TAKES NO BRAINS.... IT MAKES THE DRIVER LOOK LIKE AN ASS. NOT TO MENTION THE LACK OF RESPECT FOR THEIR EQUIPMENT. LOOK AT TONY COSTANTIONO....YA HE DOES DO SOME RISKY BUSINESS OFF "THE TRACK"...BUT NEVER HAVE I SEEN HIM IN ALL THE YEARS HE'S BEEN DRIVING THEIR HONDO, PULL A STUPID ASS MOVE. AS SOON AS THEY STARTED GETTING SOME SERIOUS SPEED, ON WENT THE HELMET AND CHUTE JACKET. SAME THING WITH MR. SCARLATA (SMART DRIVER). YES THESE BOATS CAN BE DANGEROUS. YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR EQUIPMENT. BOATS LIKE THESE TAKE TONS OF ATTENTION, BRAINS, AND KNOW-HOW. GROWING UP AROUND THEM I'VE SEEN 'EM BITE MANY PEOPLE. THIS IS THE MAIN REASON I TAKE IT SO EASY IN OUR BOAT. I DECIDED TO START WITH SOMTHING THAT IS MUCH TOO MUCH FOR A BEGINNER. WITH TIME I KNOW I'LL PERFECT IT. I HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE, AND IT'S MORE THAN I CAN EVEN AFFORD RIGHT NOW......SO I SURELY COULD NOT REPLACE IT. I ALSO WOULD HATE TO **** UP THE BILLY-B KOLORS ANY MORE THAN I ONCE DID :o. ANYWAYS ENOUGH RAMLING. HOPE YOU FIND WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR BLOWN472.
HERE IS OURS THE DAY I GOT IT. ITS NICE AND HEAVY, MAKES A GREAT RIVER BOAT
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/275flattie2.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/275FLATTIE-2.jpg

[SANGER-RICH]

Originally posted by Hud
Sanger-Rich, if you have to kept your foot on the down pedal all the time, your plates aren't setup right. All the down pedal does is help the boat take a set. After the boat takes a set, you take your foot off of it slowly and hang on!:D
I agree with you , I was going to have Bagpipes set it up for me but he seems to be a very busy man. If there is some one closer to american canyon than santa rosa I would like to talk to them about setting it up so I can see what this boat can do:D
Or I take the BBC out of my jet and get more speed out of that motor and put it in the hydro, Ive been clocked at 78 in my jet so I should get close to 90 or 100 with the hydro??? ya think??

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Morg
Blown,
Also check out the "Circle race is up" thread. The second video of the pro-stocks will give you a pretty good idea of how the circles run in the rough stuff.
The circles are built a bit different from the drag runners. The bottoms are way different & they have forward running bulk heads, (Panels) in the sides of the hull for strength.
Some will argue the circles are slower than the runners, but how often do you get glass at the river? It depends on the conditions as to which is faster.
It really depends what you want to do with the boat.
Like Scott said Dossangers would be a good guy to here from on the circle deal.
I saw that vid and that is what got me thinking, anyone have anypics of what they look like?? I want to take it out to the lake and I do have to go thru some ruff stuff to get there, not looking for just a drag boat but an all around dealio.
Thanks to everyone for the info.

[blownmoney]

Paid me to put his motor in my boat and we went to Phoenix
i gotta bridge i need to sell, is that guys still around?":D

[Fiat48]

Actually, that was the best money he ever spent. He always believed his motor made more power than was showing up in his boats. And when we went 130, he knew he was right. Smart move.

[haulina29]

Why you sellin the Fiat? :rolleyes:

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by haulina29
Why you sellin the Fiat? :rolleyes:
Only 4 races a year for the Fiat unless I slow it to 7.90 and run electronics NHRA Div 7. I don't like electronics. Too many toys.

[bigkatboat]

Fiat 48, what year did your boat run 130 in River Racer Flat? Was that the record at the time? Was it a 'legal motor'? How was the ET? Thanks!

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by bigkatboat
Fiat 48, what year did your boat run 130 in River Racer Flat? Was that the record at the time? Was it a 'legal motor'? How was the ET? Thanks!
Phoenix World Finals Nov 1986. Bill Burrows (Reno) had the record at that time though we ran right on the record or real close as I remember. I wanted that record and the little motor could pull a bigger gear but Sunny Jones came over and chewed our ass for chasing records. He said "Just win your class, I'm gonna win mine and we'll take that home to Reno." And so we geared down to be quicker. Sunny liked to "toot his own horn" so he called the newspaper and they did a little article. I still have it.
I think the record was a high 130 or maybe 131.
Final round we ran 125.12 8.10 e.t
Jones ran 149.25 with a 6.98 (alcohol flat)
Yes the motor was total legal 460 inch with 2 750 carbs and iron heads. Since my boat was a Pro gas flat suddenly appearing as a river racer, we were threatened to be torn down. We told them "Please do, we need the money!" But nobody did. Ron Grose most suspicious (Ha!) but he knew I ran injectors so he backed off.
And that's today's Nostalgia lesson. :D
PS: We idled to an idle buoy, then the numbers came down. Not dead in the water like now. Very hard to relate ET.