Vacuum pumps [Archive] - RiverRacer.Net

Cs19

12-16-2003, 08:16 PM

I was wondering what everyones thoughts/experiences were with using a vacuum pump for a river race/drag race application.
We have decided to run one for my new engine, we dont plan on running full vacuum on the river, we will be running restrictors or slowing down the pump with a pulley change,but we will be pulling full vacuum at the track. Any thoughts?

wsuwrhr

12-16-2003, 10:00 PM

What are your goals? A good vacuum system works good when it does. One reason for using a vacuum pump is so you can use a low tension ring pack. Less horsepower lost in friction.
EVERYTHING has to be sealed good to pull enough vacuum to make the system work. Intake, valvecovers, oilpan, fill tubes.
Pain in the ass if it were me.
Brian
Originally posted by cs19
I was wondering what everyones thoughts/experiences were with using a vacuum pump for a river race/drag race application.
We have decided to run one for my new engine, we dont plan on running full vacuum on the river, we will be running restrictors or slowing down the pump with a pulley change,but we will be pulling full vacuum at the track. Any thoughts?

Racing Ray

12-17-2003, 03:48 AM

I know your asking about Marine application my only experiance is with my race car. Maybe it will still be of help in making a decision. I run Moroso's pump 15 inches of vacuum. First thing I noticed was my 60' times dropped by .040. doesent sound like much but believe me a huge differance.
Next thing I noticed was it did not wander all over those bottom end times like before but was dead on pass after pass. I used to get a lot of condensate in the valve covers and it was gone never seen it again. I heard stories of them pulling the oil mist out of the crankcase thereby stopping the wrist pins from getting there only source of oil but when draining the puke tank the only thing that has ever drained out is water and lots of it.
I use a throttle stop on the bottom end to limit ET and I had to add almost a second more to the timers to run the same ETs. In Drag racing we equate ETs to torque and MPH to Horsepower. The MPH remained almost identical to what it was before.
This told me it added much more bottom end or torque and almost no HP gains. Even with the addition of low tension rings the HP gains were not noticed a few thousandsths of a mile per hour.
On installation care needs to be taken and oil pressure observed very close, some applications with remote oil filters and dry sump oil systems have been known to suffer by the vacuum actually pulling the oil back from the remote pump or filter. Not a good thing, in my case with a block mounted filter I noticed no changes in pressure at all.

superdave013

12-17-2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by Racing Ray
I run Moroso's pump 15 inches of vacuum.
Ray, is that 15" of water or hg?

Cs19

12-17-2003, 09:36 AM

Thanks for the replys.We are going to give it a shot.
Brian, The goals we are trying to achieve are trying to reduce friction with a light set of rings, for more power/less friction.
We will be running the 3 vein wet sump moroso pump with a cog belt drive and the moroso catch can or oil reservoir.

Bense468

12-17-2003, 09:56 AM

This boat is going to be sick. I can't wait to see this thing run.

flat broke

12-17-2003, 10:55 AM

CS.
I asked Dave about going that route on my motor and was enlightened to the #1 problem with the setup... Where does the oil that gets accumlated by the pump go? Obviously into a resevoir, but how long until that fills up. Because my anticipated application called for extended periods of time at mid to high RPMs, the resevoir would have to be sizable to hold all of the oil accumlated. Then of course there is the issue of the accumlated oil not being available for lubrication while it is in a resevoir.
After talking to Dave, it was obvious that the benefits of the additional ring seal would be outweighed by other issues such as the resevoir and removal of oil from the total available capacity for my application.
The only thing I would double check with Dave is your intended RPM and run time when cruising the river to ensure that you are sized accordingly on the resevoir, and that you wouldn't be compromising oil capacity in the crank case on longer cruises.
Other than that, everything I see and hear about your boat point to it being a bitchen piece. I hope to see it at the races and the CBBB this summer.
Chris

Racing Ray

12-17-2003, 01:52 PM

Flat
I am telling you 3 years of running and I have not drained a drop of oil. I have emptied about 1 gallon of water out of the resevoir. I honestly thought I would be draining oil out and it has never happened. I have had to replace the K&N breather vent several times due to oil accumulation. Dave the Autometer gauge I use measures inches Hg

flat broke

12-17-2003, 03:07 PM

Ray,
That's interesting. Is this in the boat motor or the drag motor? The reason I ask is there has to be some oil pulled through the pump if you're plumbing through the valvecover. With all of the oil slinging around, some of it has to get sucked out. I could see it not happening, or a very small amount if it's in the drag car where you're only spining it up for a couple of seconds. But in an application where the motor is going to be running for a half hour or so, I would think that there would have to be some sort oil accumulation in the vacum system.
I'll be the first to admit that I have NO EXPERIENCE with these setups and thats why I'm asking the questions. Information from guys like yourself that actually run these types of setups is how guys like me get a better understanding of things.
Thanks for posting up.
Chris

Racing Ray

12-17-2003, 05:53 PM

Flat
In 2 words it is called "proper baffles". Very important to prevent the oil from getting into the suction also always pull from the top front of the valve cover so upon acceleration the oil moves away from the vacuum source. Yes I spin my motor for 9 seconds at a time at 6000-8000 RPMs and also have 80 PSI oil pressure at idle to a bit over 120PSI at WOT. So there is quite a bit of oil flying around in my engine. as I said in 3 years of these short blasts I have never had oil from the drain petcock only water.
Also for each pass I make I have to drive to the staging lanes and back to the pits plus warm ups each morning of an event. So although high RPM operation is short term don't kid yourself I put lots of miles on the car. Some tracks the round trip can be as much a a mile with luck I may drive as much as 15 miles in one event! LOL!
The breather tank is located on the discharge or pressure side and it pushes the oil vapor along with the air out the filter and I only change it annually. The baffles below the vacuum fitting is only about 1/4 inch from the bottom of the valve cover. So actual wet oil never sees the suction port only vapor.

Cs19

12-17-2003, 07:24 PM

Yeah I hear ya on the oil accumulation deal. To be honest, im not all that worried about that, I dont see it collecting that much oil considering we will not be pulling full vacuum while cruising,and i wont be running it that much on the river, mostly just cruising from sandbar to sandbar..Even if it does fill up, the oil tank has a drain on the bottom that makes it very easy to drain the tank.
I am more concerned about the life of the lightweight rings and the pump itself..apparently Moroso had some issues with their pumps a while back, but they have ironed them out now and they work well.We will see. :D
I wish i had some extra bucks for this pump instead of Morosos deal.
http://productengr.com/images/Product%20photos/Vac%20pump/P0000166%20vac%20pump%201.jpg

flat broke

12-18-2003, 10:34 AM

Ray,
Thanks for the additional input and painting a clearer picture for me. I hope I didn't come off with attitude, I was just curious.
Thanks,
Chris

Racing Ray

12-18-2003, 05:55 PM

Chris no worries at all. Heck I have always enjoyed your input I have always felt you were one of the better posters here. I am totally sold on the use of the vacuum pump and just wanted to be sure you guys understood how they really work and what good they do and don't do. Lots of better ways to pick up HP if that is what someone is looking for but also some really great benifits if those fit your bill.
Someone just looking for a clean way of eliminating crankcase pressure might be better suited to use a smog pump or for even more benifits the newer Corvettes have a 12 Volt vacuum pump that is small and more efficent than a smog pump.
Personally I was very disapointed that it didn't add more HP but in all very pleased with what it did add.
Smog pump=3" HG
Corvette pump=5-6"HG
3 Vane=15+" HG
Exceeding 15" WILL cause oiling problems and can starve the filter in a remote filter set-up.
I installed a bleeder valve just in case it exceeded 15" but that is the max I got at WOT.

Cs19

12-18-2003, 07:21 PM

Racing ray, That pump shown above pulls 26 inches and is for a pro street type set up, do you think that would be okay on a motor without a remote filter?
On another note,I have been hearing the same thing about the corvette and I think cadillac is doing it too.. Some of the car manufacturers are equipping their vehicles with light ring sets and vacuum pumps for daily drivers. This made me feel alot better about running this stuff on the river.
Thanks to everyone for the replys on this thread and compliments on my boat , I really appreciate it.Looks like the engine will be done in late jan or sometime in feb.We are waiting for pistons right now... I will try to keep you guys posted with pics and stuff.:D See ya.

Racing Ray

12-19-2003, 07:25 AM

That is "Pro Street" as in NMCA racing. Mike Moran and Warren Johnson both run dry sump systems. It also includes a vacuum regulator to limit the amount of vacuum it pulls to allow for tuning. I would not even think of running above 15" in a wet sump system, remote filter or not.
As an added note at 15" my valve covers suck down about 1/2" in the middle. They would probably collapse at 26"

superdave013

12-19-2003, 07:53 AM

15" of Hg is a crap load of vacuum. It bet it does tug down on your valve covers.
Ray, do you have to do anything different as far as gaskets and seals go?

Racing Ray

12-19-2003, 09:16 AM

No Dave The only thing I did was make a special oil fill plug with an o' ring seal. You can see it in my avatar. The first pulls on the dyno pictured there I did without the pump. We then added it and got about 80ft lbs but only 15 HP. You did bring up another benefit I forgot to mention not a drop of oil drips or even seeps from her now.

Cs19

12-19-2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Racing Ray
As an added note at 15" my valve covers suck down about 1/2" in the middle.
:eek:.... wow, that put things into perspective for me.Thanks.

jerry billet

12-19-2003, 05:30 PM

I've run the Moroso 4 vain in my drag/lake boat. One of the definite pluses is no blow by in the engine compartment. Gets rid of all the leaks, oil accumilation in the bilge. Even with baffles, running hard at the lake it would have oil running down the covers and heads.
new low tension springs, clean up cylindar walls, and no problems. As for oil in the system, I thought you needed some to lube the pump and help seal.
also helps to use GM's one peice rubber/steel gaskets. They seal real well and are reusable.
Jerry

UBFJ #454

12-19-2003, 06:11 PM

cs 19 -
In consideration of a vacuum pump system I would look seriously at Auto Verdi's system, a Swedish manufacturer whose product, in my opinion is far superior to Moroso's. They make 2, 3, 4, & 5 stage systems applicable to a variety of different motors ... some of their top end pumps are now running on a number of NASCAR cars. The nat'l distributer is there in Costa Mesa ... Ebbert has their # and has installed a few on various drag boat motors ... give him a call, he'll fill you in I'm sure. Their expensive, but, worth it and really not that much more than Moroso in the long run.

Cs19

12-19-2003, 06:35 PM

Thanks Jak, Ill ask Dave about those on Monday.
Im scared to see what it costs.:D The one above from product engineering is $800 for the pump alone. $1400 for the whole kit minus plumbing.
Moroso wants $380 and i think its around $200 for the nice cog belt drive and mounting hardware. Maybe another $100 in plumbing.$70 for the oil tank. About 1/2 price for this kit,but you get what you pay for.:rolleyes:

Racing Ray

12-21-2003, 05:26 AM

Jerry
The mist that passes through the pump on it's way to the breather vent is plenty of lubrication for the pump. It does not need an oil supply.

cheech

12-21-2003, 11:06 AM

vac. pumps are design to be used in racing to gain quicker et's lap times in very small increments. if you have a blow-by problem this is a pretty expencive way to cover it up.(not a fix) to gain all advantages you need to build the motor for using a pump. low ten.rings the lightest pistons. like piston with high pin locations and small ring package's. be honest with your self what you will be doing with the boat.you will be happier in the end. don't do it to just impress someone. stickers are cheeper and you can always peel them off if something better comes out.

Cs19

12-21-2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by cheech
vac. pumps are design to be used in racing to gain quicker et's lap times in very small increments. if you have a blow-by problem this is a pretty expencive way to cover it up.(not a fix) to gain all advantages you need to build the motor for using a pump. low ten.rings the lightest pistons. like piston with high pin locations and small ring package's. be honest with your self what you will be doing with the boat.you will be happier in the end. don't do it to just impress someone. stickers are cheeper and you can always peel them off if something better comes out.
Ok well we aernt building a hack motor here, and we are not putting a vacuum pump on just to put a bandaid on something or to look cool.We are building a brand new motor with good parts including custom made pistons, we will take full advantage of the vacuum.My goals are to be able to run on the river, and go bracket racing...on pump gas..
As far as being honest with myself. Im doing that. If I wasnt I would have built a high compression motor. As far as your sticker comment..i dont have any stickers on my boat.. :rolleyes:

Racing Ray

12-21-2003, 04:52 PM

I just chose to ignore it.

Cs19

12-21-2003, 06:47 PM

I was just reading a small article in the new hotrod mag about vacuum pumps.They claimed they got 20 horse and 19 ft. lbs on a 408 small block, a motor which was not designed to run a vacuum pump,wrong rings,etc...In other tests they have seen gains up to 30 H.P.:eek:
Also says.... "the pump eats 5-10 hp in parasitic losses,which means the power gain at the pistons is even greater than at the flywheel".
..I think i understand this, but im not 100 % sure ..someone care to explain it to me?.
also says...." we always put some light oil into the pump before it has been run,then clean it out with carb cleaner and re-oil it every 5 or 6 dragstrip passes. So its not entirely practical for street use,but you can always remove the belt....Also the breather tank needs to be emptied,and the pump may need to be rebuilt with new veins approximatly yearly.
Sounds like they need some minor maintence, which is perfectly ok with me.Dave knows I dont mind working on my stuff(I actually enjoy it) which is one of the reasons he went with a mechanical roller for my motor.
Just wanted to pass on this info for those who are interested.

cheech

12-21-2003, 11:01 PM

cs19 i am sorry about the sticker crack, it sounds like you are going to compete with this motor, i thought you were use it to cruise mostly and race for fun. and it appears you don"t have to impress anybody. i have used these systems on imca modified's and non-dry sump cars not used for drag racing. we never gained enough power for the cost. to get the vacume system to work the best you need to make sure the crankcase. so if you take the belt off, won't the crankcase have no way to vent if the pump is not turning.

TRG

12-21-2003, 11:16 PM

right!.... whatever he said (what the **** you smokin' cheech?)!

12-25-2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by cs19
I was just reading a small article in the new hotrod mag about vacuum pumps.They claimed they got 20 horse and 19 ft. lbs on a 408 small block, a motor which was not designed to run a vacuum pump,wrong rings,etc...In other tests they have seen gains up to 30 H.P.:eek:
Also says.... "the pump eats 5-10 hp in parasitic losses,which means the power gain at the pistons is even greater than at the flywheel".
..I think i understand this, but im not 100 % sure ..someone care to explain it to me?.
also says...." we always put some light oil into the pump before it has been run,then clean it out with carb cleaner and re-oil it every 5 or 6 dragstrip passes. So its not entirely practical for street use,but you can always remove the belt....Also the breather tank needs to be emptied,and the pump may need to be rebuilt with new veins approximatly yearly.
Sounds like they need some minor maintence, which is perfectly ok with me.Dave knows I dont mind working on my stuff(I actually enjoy it) which is one of the reasons he went with a mechanical roller for my motor.
Just wanted to pass on this info for those who are interested.
chris, we installed the 3-vane last january. on the dyno, we saw 12-13"(hg) of vacuum. we did not go with the lighter rings, just the pump and saw some impressive gains on the dyno from the previous runs. after an entire season, i got about a thimble full of oil out of the tank.

565edge

12-27-2003, 05:29 PM

Cs19,the product engineering stuff is sweet.I run there fuel sysetem and it cost a bundle.I read on this thread you want to run on the river and race on pump gas.I thought you can not use pump gas at the track?Anyways going with gas ported pistons and low tension rings with a vacuum pump,is the best way to free up some hp.What comp are you going to run?

superdave013

12-27-2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by 565edge
Cs19,the product engineering stuff is sweet.I run there fuel sysetem and it cost a bundle.I read on this thread you want to run on the river and race on pump gas.I thought you can not use pump gas at the track?Anyways going with gas ported pistons and low tension rings with a vacuum pump,is the best way to free up some hp.What comp are you going to run?
That's a good point about the pump gas at the races.
You can run it but if you happen to win they will do a fuel check. For some (unknown to me) reason pump gas fails the fuel check. Seems kinda jacked up that in classed like ski jet, ski flat and river racer you can't fill up at the AM PM.
Hey CS19, are you watching e bay at all? I picked up a brand new Steffs breather tank (for my dry sump) for 35 bucks. I was going to make my own but that was a steal of a deal and it's hella nice to boot.

wsuwrhr

12-27-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by superdave013
That's a good point about the pump gas at the races.
You can run it but if you happen to win they will do a fuel check. For some (unknown to me) reason pump gas fails the fuel check. Seems kinda jacked up that in classed like ski jet, ski flat and river racer you can't fill up at the AM PM.
Dave for the life of me I can't remember what test the pump gas always failed when I tested fuel. It has been a few years. I'll think of it and post back when I remember.
Brian

Cs19

12-27-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by bp
chris, we installed the 3-vane last january. on the dyno, we saw 12-13"(hg) of vacuum. we did not go with the lighter rings, just the pump and saw some impressive gains on the dyno from the previous runs. after an entire season, i got about a thimble full of oil out of the tank.
Bob, thanks for the reply. Thats quite a shock you only had that much oil in the tank after the whole season. I wonder what it will be like on the lake.:confused: We will soon find out.:D See you soon,Chris.

Cs19

12-27-2003, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by 565edge
Cs19,the product engineering stuff is sweet.I run there fuel sysetem and it cost a bundle.I read on this thread you want to run on the river and race on pump gas.I thought you can not use pump gas at the track?Anyways going with gas ported pistons and low tension rings with a vacuum pump,is the best way to free up some hp.What comp are you going to run?
Allen , I also have some some of their stuff in my fuel system(pump and reg.) its nice stuff.
Yes i want to run pump gas in it. Its being built for it, but if they are going to bitch at me for running 92 at ming (which I doubt they will) then I will run some good fuel in it. Im going for a low comp. motor so I can burn pump gas on the river,not at the track.
I know of atleast 1 for sure maybe 3 guys on pump gas at ming.
I dont know the ratio off the top of my head. I do know Dave will be pushing the envelope for pump gas on this one though.When I find out the exact number, ill let you know.

Cs19

12-27-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by superdave013
Hey CS19, are you watching e bay at all? I picked up a brand new Steffs breather tank (for my dry sump) for 35 bucks. I was going to make my own but that was a steal of a deal and it's hella nice to boot.
Sd, That is a good deal,sometimes you cant beat EBAY. I just went with the remote oil tank from MOROSO with the -12 line,its just a bolt in deal,no mods necassary.Thats how I like it at this point :D
I usually do a quick search under "jet boat" or "dragboat" weekly, but i have not been looking at big block stuff. I have most everything I need now,I just need a few small things here and there that i will just pick up new.See ya.
:D

12-28-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by 565edge
Cs19,the product engineering stuff is sweet.I run there fuel sysetem and it cost a bundle.I read on this thread you want to run on the river and race on pump gas.I thought you can not use pump gas at the track?Anyways going with gas ported pistons and low tension rings with a vacuum pump,is the best way to free up some hp.What comp are you going to run?
allan, you can run whatever gasoline you want to in the brackets or river racer. for class boats (pg, comp, ubf, ski, etc.) you need to run some type of race fuel.
this is because you must be able to demonstrate that you are only running gas if you win a round (as opposed to fuel). the fuel sample taken is measured via conductivity. pump gas will not pass a conductivity test, due to additives. race gas will pass the test.

flat broke

12-29-2003, 10:01 AM

If the test is a conductivity test, could it be the lack of lead in the pump gas that causes the failure?
Didn't mean to Hijack the Vacum thread, but figgured I'd ask for my own edification. ;)
Chris

HOSS

12-29-2003, 10:27 AM

Sorry but I just have to intervene. As most (if not all) motors see a performance improvement with a pump, most motors do not need one. Durability is a great factor in common use. A PCV valve is most noteably suffecient.

Race Bob

12-29-2003, 09:02 PM

Cs19

12-11-2004, 10:00 PM

Came across this old thread from a year ago.
the vacuum pump works great, havent had a single issue with it, the tank never has much of anything in it, maybe some water ,and some like black oil, i think its the crap coming off the veins, plus the small amount of oil it collects.Anyways just wanted to gove some feedback after a season of running.

ARS Marine inc.east

12-12-2004, 02:15 AM

We have run vacuum pumps on both wet & dry sump motors be careful how much vacuum you run higher than 17" hg. can run the wrist pins dry.Make sure you have forced pin oilers on the pistons and chamfer the oil holes to get as much oil on the pins as possible.Never used them on any endurance type engines curious to no the long term effect?
Ran a vacuum Pump for two seasons on a 540 I had. Did see on the Dyno about 12-15 H.P. increase don't have the Sheet in front of me
Did alot of racing and alot of "STREET racing On the Water"
And found after pulling the motor apart for routine mataince
2or3 Full Floating Wrist pins starting to stick. was not a Big deal to fix, But it did make me look into Forced pin oilers.
Chris Good to see you didnt have any Problems

DEL51

12-12-2004, 04:07 AM

The vacuum pump I run has been a real asset.I run an old style moroso 3 vane pump.No problems yet, just squirt it with wd-40 on a routine basis. I am a pleasure/ Lake racer.I used to have oil vapor and condensate flow out of the old style valve cover breathers, oil leaks from obscure places on previous engines.They did not show until full throttle runs. I now run 14 inches of vacuum at wide open and have no oil control issues. I am different. I run a blower motor with 11.5 lbs of boost. No zero gap rings but good parts on a 572. My Cast aluminum polished valve covers have never flexed.I did make one major change. On the Dyno I was drawing vacuum from the base of the manifold. I had the front side of the manifold tapped, under the "tent", for a -12 fitting, and baffled the underneath. Pulling from the lfter valley. In this configuration, I had excess filling of puke tank, This was during prolonged runs in the boat at wide open throttle. My friend moved the suction point to the valve cover on the passenger side. Also, the puke tank and breather were removed from the hi-velocity air. We moved to the front of the motor.The oil in the tank reduced by 12 oz. I removed 8 ounces of fluid from my resovior on the last run.It looked like creem. My oil is perfect in color.I think if you boat in a high humidity, like me, your results will vary. Thanks DEL51,Chris

cjordan

12-12-2004, 09:01 AM

I watched my engine builder dyno a 500" NHRA Pro-stock motor that he was selling (it was a couple of yrs old and down about 100hp on power) It made 1285HP @9400, pulls started @7500...it was awesome to say the least.....Anyway on the last pull power fell off ~65HP. he initially thought he'd lost a couple of valve springs....pulled the covers and there was vacuum pump vane material all over the valve train. Needless to say the pulls were over for the day.
65HP from the vacum pump alone just amazed me....Something else that was pretty cool I personally had never seen was what I'll call "water jacketed" exhaust valve seats...they actually cool the seats in these motors...he said it was worth about 7HP.....Talk about trying to find every last ounce of power!!