View Full Version : HP3 VORTEC 8100 WHAT??(> or = to Merc motors?)
Wadup with these Vortec motors they are running in the APBA????
Dr. Eagle
12-21-2003, 11:14 AM
I read an article about these engines in Poker Runs America magazine sometime back. The HP3 is a high performance version of the 496 that are on the order of 500 or 525 horses as I recall.(?) I don't remember the specifics... I think the HP1 and HP2 are the 385 and 425 HP versions used by Mercury.
They were designed by GM as marine engines and I don't remember if they had any design assistance from Mercury, but I think not. I do remember comments that this being a product of the GM production engine group, they were competing directly with Mercury's high performance group, builders of the HP500, 525, etc.
That seems to be the case.....What's the word re reliability? Cost vs Merc's? It would be nice to get a reliable motor along those hp lines without having to pay Merc's high prices..
Havasu Hangin'
12-21-2003, 11:23 AM
Merc was buying their motors from GM.
GM decides to market thier Vortec motors themselves and compete with Mercury Racing (pissed off Mercury).
APBA decides to allow GM Vortec motors in Factory Racing, as an alternative to Mercury (pissed off Mercury who had the exclusive rights).
Mercury pulls it's APBA sponsorship.
Dr. Eagle
12-21-2003, 11:24 AM
It seems that they did a deal with APBA and made it an engine with similar approval to run alongside the HP500. I don't know if they are waiting for data from racing to validate the longevity of the engines or what, but I have not seen them being marketed as of yet.
Dr. Eagle
12-21-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Merc was buying their motors from GM.
GM decides to market thier Vortec motors themselves and compete with Mercury Racing (pissed off Mercury).
APBA decides to allow GM Vortec motors in Factory Racing, as an alternative to Mercury (pissed off Mercury who had the exclusive rights).
Mercury pulls it's APBA sponsorship.
And blamed their poor relationship on Michael Alweiss...:rolleyes:
And honestly, I think Mercury could use a good slap....they are the Microsoft of the Marine industry...
good products, but a swager second to none...
HammerDown
12-21-2003, 11:31 AM
Good topic as I was about to ask the same question.
Havasu Hangin'
12-21-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
...but I have not seen them being marketed as of yet.
I'm sure you could buy one if you really wanted...all you need is a drive package.
Minor detail.
I think Mercury better start looking over it's shoulder...if the big three decide to get back in the marine business, (Viper 12's?), look out.
Dr. Eagle
12-21-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I'm sure you could buy one if you really wanted...all you need is a drive package.
Minor detail.
I think Mercury better start looking over it's shoulder...if the big three decide to get back in the marine business, (Viper 12's?), look out.
Yep HH, I am absolutely sure you are right...they could be had somewhere... GM Performance or GM directly.
What I was saying was simply that I haven't noticed them being marketed while casually perusing my ususal media sources...HB, Powerboat, Poker Runs, Extreme Boats America, etc.
:D
Oh we all know that there have been alternative engines to Merc for a long time, but not on the production scale as from Chevrolet or GM. I for one am glad to see it!!!!!!!!!!
Of course what the Nazis at Merc will probably do is lower their engine prices and raise their drive prices.....:mad: :rolleyes:
Sure wouldn't surprise me......
Havasu Hangin'
12-21-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Oh we all know that there have been alternative engines to Merc for a long time, but not on the production scale as from Chevrolet or GM.
Agreed.
I really like how Phaff and IMCO teamed up to show that there are superior "non-Merc" products out there for less money.
I was disappointed to see Volvo give up it's High-Performance business. Not because they were superior to Merc (they were), but because it gave Mercury Racing some competition with the builders.
If the GM marketing and production machines got spooled up with some builders...the Merc stranglehold may actually be loosened again. I'd say the consumer wins in that battle.
Flashwave
12-21-2003, 06:38 PM
Innovation marine was selected by GM to Marinize the 496 platform to run in APAB Offshore. The engine was allowed run in the Super V, Super V Light and Factory 1&2. It dynoed at 555 HP. Mercury's 525 dynos at 555 HP (on the dyno, not the prop shaft). The HP and torque of the Vortec and Merc virtually match throughout the RPM range. We saw some competitive racing. Some very cool things came out of the offshore testing program making the 496 very durable in an environment were engines not only go forward and backward, but up and down and sideways with incredible G loads.
The difference between the 2 engines is the platform. The Merc 525 is based on a GM 502 block and the 8100/HP3 is based on the 496 block you find in their trucks today. GM is using APBA to prove the durability of their truck engines in the extreme environment of offshore racing. They are using this to market and sell more trucks.
Mercury also uses the 496 platform in the 496 HO. Mercury Racing, the makers of the HP500 and 525 however have not moved to the more modern platform.
Don't look for GM to marinze engines and compete against Mercury. Mercury is a sizable account to GM Powertrain. I would expect to see independent engine builders adopt the 496 block and build some engines. Its durability has been proven in offshore racing.
Havasu Hangin'
12-21-2003, 06:54 PM
Flashwave- are you guys selling your boat? Is a new boat on the way?
MagicMtnDan
12-21-2003, 07:31 PM
This is a great topic and since I don't have years of experience or knowledge, I'll ask a few dumb questions if you all don't mind:
* Why doesn't there seem to be any competition in terms of engines and drive packages from the custom boat builders? It seems like Mercruiser is the only option.
* Since there are obviously other engine and driver alternatives available in the marketplace, why don't one or more of those manufacturers hook up with some boat builders and offer engine/drive packages for less giving us boat buyers more value and bang-for-the-buck?
* For what a 496HO and drive costs, what engine/drive combo can I get from another manufacturer that will deliver similar results for less money (when I say less money I mean less money for the package INSTALLED by the custom boat maker)? How much money will it cost to get an installed engine/drive package that is more powerful than the 496HO?
It seems like there aren't many boat makers offering alternatives to Mercruiser - if that's the case (is it?) new boat buyers should have non-Merc engine/drive options available to them.
I'm guessing that if the custom boat makers start offering other than Merc packages, Mercruiser might/could pull their products from the boat makers - right?
I've been told I could get an engine/drive package on my own and have the boat maker install it (or maybe it was pay the boat maker to buy the engine/drive combo) - the issue as I see it is that this doesn't seem to be a very simple thing to do and I think it should be as easy as checking off a box on the order sheet for the XXX motor and XXX drive (XXX = fill in the manufacturer's names).
Havasu Hangin'
12-21-2003, 07:44 PM
I'll take a stab at a couple of 'em:
Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
Why doesn't there seem to be any competition in terms of engines and drive packages from the custom boat builders? It seems like Mercruiser is the only option.
Actually, no. However, a boatbuilder can steer a customer in many directions.
Some builders offer "in-house" packages, because there is profit to be made on engines. However, that could be a headache come warranty time- I mean, if your builder is in Havasu, but your boat breaks in Newport Beach, who ya gonna call?
There are also "other builders" (such as Teague), but a builder will need to work with them, and be familiar with installing the product, and the performance expectations.
Mercury is usually a "turn-key" answer to builders, because of the extensive dealer network, and most builders are familiar with thier packages.
Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
Since there are obviously other engine and driver alternatives available in the marketplace, why don't one or more of those manufacturers hook up with some boat builders and offer engine/drive packages for less giving us boat buyers more value and bang-for-the-buck?
There is. For example, Phaff and Hallet have been together for years. However, if the customer wants a Merc, they can do that, too.
Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
For what a 496HO and drive costs, what engine/drive combo can I get from another manufacturer that will deliver similar results for less money (when I say less money I mean less money for the package INSTALLED by the custom boat maker)? How much money will it cost to get an installed engine/drive package that is more powerful than the 496HO?
Like I stated in an earlier post, Hot Boat did a test on a Hallet with a Phaff/Imco and Merc/Merc package comparison. The Phaff/Imco was cheaper and faster, I believe.
I would imagine the same holds true for Teague. He makes a 620 for about the same price of the Merc 525.
Once again, Merc has a dealer network going for it...it may come in handy if you need warranty work on vacation.
So the thought is that GM is merely using offshore racing to prove the durability of their 496 with no intention of commercial placement in marine applications. Isn't that freakin' swell..... We all would benifit significantly from a little healthy competition here...... and it's overdue.....Interesting balancing act their attempting by being in the marine game but implying that they have no intention of further commercial development of said products....I wonder how profitable that market is?...if they charge anywhere near Merc's prices......they could make a killing by bypassing Merc and selling direct to the public......Hum....
BADBLOWN572
12-22-2003, 08:12 AM
I have been in a 34' deep V that had a pair of the hp3 motors in them and I would say that they are equivalent to the 500hp engines. I believe that Pro Boat out in Riverside is offering them currently, but I am not sure. I recall hearing that somewhere.
As for the V-10 motors, I am not a big fan. I know a lot of engine builders that will build you a 600-700hp motor for less than a 500 h.p. V-10. All you are really paying for is the novelty of the v-10.
Dave C
12-22-2003, 08:38 AM
have you guys seen the APBA races on speed channel? They are marketing (almost to the point of shamelessness) the hell out of GM trucks/vortec motors, with commercials, commentary from the racers, sponsorship, etc. etc.
I agree with you guys about getting more motor aftermarket for less money. But like HH said if there is no dealer network that is a big turnoff for a lot of people when it comes time for service.
It seems that GM has more to gain with a relationship with Merc than working against them because Merc already has an established distribution network. GM doesn't have to do any marketing and Merc sells and services all the motors. Remember marketing ain't cheap!
My question is, where is Ford and Dodge here?
If Ford got into the game would we be hearing form the Chevy guys..........."Found on the ramp dead"............."Found on the river drowned"......etc?? Also, best I could tell, most of the hp3's had outdrives. I'm not clear whose they were using or where the problem lies here?????
230Stingray
12-22-2003, 10:08 AM
If you want to take a look at the HP3 go to WWW.gmpowertrain.com under specialty engines they show all of the base engines available from them.
Havasu Cig
12-22-2003, 10:20 AM
I agree with HH's post....
I will also add the additional warranty you can buy on the Merc stuff.
I bought an additional 4 years to go along with the one year I received when I purchased our boat. I just broke a drive, and the warranty paid Teague over 5k to fix it. I still have over 3 years left on the extended warranty, which is nice.
IMO it depends on what you want. There are definitely some very nice motor packages out there other than Merc, but the dealer network, and warranty you get with Merc is the best out there.
gnarley
12-22-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Dave C
It seems that GM has more to gain with a relationship with Merc than working against them because Merc already has an established distribution network.
My question is, where is Ford and Dodge here?
Even if GM pisses off Merc, what are they going to do??? They ain't going to Ford or Dodge, they have way too much invested in the GM relationship, it would literally cost Merc Millions to end the relationship & develop another line of suitable replacements for the GM engines, then what would happen with all the warranty claims on the current GM engines and the Dealer network already trained and established. The costs would be astronomical. So it might piss off Merc and they cant be happy about competing with their supplier but they cant walk away from it either.
BowTie Rick
12-22-2003, 03:31 PM
Very cool... yours truly did the little red jobs hanging off the throttle bodies. Sometimes I actually enjoy work. I am involved with another one for a new Mercury racing motor due out in 04 that should turn some heads.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/164Vortec_8_1L_Marine.jpg
http://www.ilmor.com/marine/images/MV10S_left.jpg
Flashwave
12-22-2003, 04:06 PM
HH.
Yes the Warlock is for sale. $65,000. I'm putting a Vortec 8100 HP3 at 555 HP in it in January replacing the HP 500. (Shameless spam. The 500 is for sale for $12,000. ) It will give me another 5-6 MPH top end and a bunch more torque. We have to run the Merc Sportmaster lower + 300 pounds which brings us back down 5 mph but the torque carries us through the turns without the engine bogging down. At the end of the race this is about a 2 minute advantage.
Again don't look for GM to get into the marine business. It takes a company with a package (engine drive and gimble) to support the marine industry. Without the drive and gimble, the engine isn't anything. Mercury is a good company and Mercury and GM have a great relationship. $17,000 for a 496 HO with Drive and gimble is fair in my opinion. $30,000+ for a 525 drive and gimble is not. It's on the high performance side that the Teagues GT Performance, Az Speed and Marine and others have a lot to offer.
The cool thing about the 496 is you can by parts for it at the auto parts store or you GM dealer. That engine is good from 300 HP to 575 HP. Up to 470 HP you really don't have to do much to it. Reprogram the ECM and some headers. After that, do some head work, cam and reprogram the ECM to bump to 555 HP. This engine likes to breath. The better it breaths the more HP it makes.:)
Jim
Dave C
12-22-2003, 04:40 PM
Gnarley,
I would agree with that. Seems like GM has more "leverage" here given they are a bigger 800 lb gorilla.
But they would both make more money playing nicely in the sand box together.
rvrtoy
12-22-2003, 04:47 PM
Marine Power is currently offering the HP3 with an Imco drive (I beleive it is Imco anyway). From all the feedback I have been seeing it is a great set up. I beleive the complete package is priced less than the Mercuruiser and has a comperable warranty.
jbtrailerjim
12-22-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by rvrtoy
Marine Power is currently offering the HP3 with an Imco drive (I beleive it is Imco anyway). From all the feedback I have been seeing it is a great set up. I beleive the complete package is priced less than the Mercuruiser and has a comperable warranty.
Isn't that the set up John put in his 28' Stealth he had on display at the SEMA show?
rvrtoy
12-22-2003, 04:52 PM
Yes thats the set up we are using in Johns 28. So far we like how it performs. Just not sure if MP is marketing with the Imco drive or not.
Havasu Hangin'
12-22-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Flashwave
HH.
Yes the Warlock is for sale. $65,000....
Are ya gonna stay with a Warlock? Good luck with the new setup.
BTW...I don't think you could hear me, but I was yellin' at the TV last Sunday morning (saw you guys on Speedvision).
Was it me, or did I see a little air under the boat?
Flashwave
12-23-2003, 07:50 PM
If I sell the Warlock I'll be moving to a canopie boat. You see I went swimming at 80 mph in St Pete. I want to go a lot faster and racing in an open boat over 80 mph isn't to smart.
What you saw was some very rough water in Orange beach Alabama. It looked smooth from the shore....well this picture says it all.
Jim
http://www.f148.com/images/DSC_4271web.jpg
by far my favorite photo from Judy Darby.com (http://www.judydarby.com) (go to her website. It's so cool)
http://www.judydarby.com/photos/apb_5348.jpg
Jim, The picture, I'm not receiving for some reason. Post again??
Just Tool'n
12-23-2003, 10:16 PM
I really think there needs to be more competition in the engines available. Profits must be huge for Merc.
Did you guys see the writeup in Family&perf boating about the moreoso engine they put in there 24ft HTM.
Pretty cool, but when went to the company website could not find anything about marine engine packages.
Being in sales & projecting future trends, I would like to see some of the sales/build stats on how many boats go out with merc factory stuff vs custom build jobs, from some of the west coast custom builders.
Is it a small percentage, or is it in the double digit stats.
Havasu Hangin'
12-24-2003, 07:05 AM
Yeah...it looked pretty ugly on TV...I can't imagine flying in it. Keep up the good work...I'm always pullin' for a fellow board member (even if the Laveycraft guys are local).
You coming out for the Heatwave this year again?
BADBLOWN572
12-24-2003, 09:28 AM
The one thing that I have to say about Mercury is that they are always on the cutting edge of what is needed. Many people were hesitant about going fuel injected in a boat, now it is standard mostly due to Mercury. They were the first ones to come up with the closed cooling systems built into the motor and not have to have external heat exchangers and a lot more trouble. The new motors are no more difficult to install than the old motors w/o cooling systems. I think that there definitely needs to be other companies competing, but just right now Mercury is leading the pack and keeps innovating. Everyone right now is taking the technology that Mercury developed and coming in a distant second. Until other companies develop their own technologies and offer packages that can compete, mercury will dominate the market.
gnarley
12-24-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by BADBLOWN572
Everyone right now is taking the technology that Mercury developed and coming in a distant second.
I had no idea as of lately, really I didn't. I had thought that Mercury was always taking form others like Volvo. I really thought that Volvo has been the innovator and has bee for many years & Mercury has always followed their lead. Except for maybe in racing where Merc has tried to market its high-end stuff. Volvo continues to market to the bread and butter buyers and in really big numbers. To bad Volvo isn't into racing as much as Merc, maybe we'd see some real competition if they were.
Flashwave
12-24-2003, 03:58 PM
I'm curious. Who would be interested in repowering their existing boats with a Vortec HP3/8100 at 555 HP (on the dyno). Cost would be around $17,000 including headers and 1-year warranty? This is the same engine the offshore boats run. You would also want a XR drive or equivalent for this kind of torque and power. This is not an offer. Just checking interest.
Jim
Jim, Which Merc engine would that be comparable to and what would that Merc cost?
Flashwave
12-26-2003, 05:20 PM
Comparable to a Merc Racing 525. Merc's runs about $25,000 street price.
Jim, If you got some takers on said motor with said warranty, where would they take said motor to get work done if said motor developed a disturbing ping???? (I do like the potential savings or roughly 1/3. If a guy could set up a nationwide service network, and GM would commit to future supplies, this could be a beautiful thing......
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