I NEED YOUR OPINION (very long post)

[rude235]

i purchased a 2001 eliminator 25 daytona in sept of '02._ i was told the boat had never been sold, registered, titled etc etc which was true._ i was also told the boat was a "repo" from a dealer out of florida that had gone "belly up"._ which was also true._ the dealership i purchased the boat from, anderson performance in fon du lac wisconsin, told me the boat had "about 20-30" hours on it._ when the boat showed up at my door in vegas the hour meter showed 2.5 hours on it._ i had the boat serviced at dunsmore marine shortly after i took delivery of the boat and was told the computer showed 51 hours!!!!_ apperently the hour meter had been changed._ i called eliminator about the problem and spoke with an individual (who incidently told me not to use his name in reference to this) who told me anderson should provide a partial refund of the purchase price of the boat due to not telling me of the correct hours._ when i confronted bob anderson about the problem he told me there was nothing he could do and was unaware of the hour meter being changed._ i left the_ subject alone and chalked it up to a lesson learned._ recently i had the boat serviced at eliminator in havasu attempting to get a few things fixed before the boat was no longer under warranty (since it was sold to me as a "new" boat)._ i had several gouges in the sponsons fixed at my expense (which the boat had from the day it was delivered) and had them fix a fuel sending unit, and the drivers seat which had come loose from it's mounting bracket._ upon returning to eliminator to pick up the daytona, i get the bill and see that i was charged for all of the above mentioned items._ i had the boat in for the same fuel sending unit problem a number of months ago and they couldnot find the problem, so the sending unit was not replaced at that time._ i was told the sending unit could not be warrantied because it was not a part eliminator uses in their boats._ according to eliminator it had been replaced by someone else and used less than acceptable parts._ i was charged for this repair._ as for my drivers seat, it was COMPLETELY ROTTEN!!!_ eliminator was contacted the following business day._ after several calls to them, i was put in contact with someone in management, he told me that the dealership the boat was originally sent to was indeed in florida and had gone bankrupt._ he went on to say that the owner of the dealership was in prison._ i believe the dealership name was international yaht sales._ eliminator produced 3 boats for this dealership._ a 30ft eagle, a 26 daytona and a 25 daytona (the same boat that i later purchased)._ foley went on to tell me that it's a written agreement between eliminator, the dealership, and the bank that finances the flooring of the boats that eliminator will ultimately take the boats back should the dealership go bankrupt._ foley said eliminator had send a rep to florida to make arrangements to ship the boats back to mira loma, ca._ he told me the boats "were trashed" and eliminator said it was a breech of contract and the boats were NOT in new condition and refused to take them back._ apparently the 30ft eagle had been raced and had major damage, the 26ft daytona had a "print through" from very large decals that had placed on the boat and if you can believe it, foley couldn't remember the extent of the damage to my boat._ they refused to take ALL 3 BOATS._ that's where bob anderson comes in._ he buys all 3 boats at an auction, evidently makes the necessary repairs to each boat and sells them as "NEW BOATS"._ i was never told of ANY damage to my boat, that it was bought at an auction or that it was damaged too bad for eliminator to consider reselling them as new boats._ foley said bob anderson was ultimately responsible to correct the situation._ anderson was contacted in reference to this._ his response was, "how do i know the damage was not done after delivery"._
my concern with my boat is, how much of my interior is rotten, how extensive was the damage, why did the computer show about 50 more hours on the motor than the hour meter? it seems to me that i should have been told my boat was purchased at auction and had certain repairs done to it. if eliminator was not willing to sell it as a new boat, why was another dealer allowed to do so??????? any thoughts on this situation would be greatly appreciated.
sorry for the SUPER LONG post. if you would rather send me an email, you can do so at jdirig4703@aol.com.
thanx again.

[Kilrtoy]

Sounds like you were scammed.
Contact the BBB.
But its not much help to you.......
Contact the local news they love exposing people like that.....

[eddie]

We had a few people with issues with Eliminator and they have always resolved them. They even took a boat back from Nebraska and made the repairs, upgrades sent the boat back free of charge. From what I've seen they stand behind their product.
You should of been told that the boat was not "new" upfront by Anderson and your beef is with him. Hard to say with just hearing your "side" of the story if you know what I mean. Good luck, keep us updated on how it turns out.

[rude235]

the BBB is a good idea, i hadn't thought of them. eddie, i understand the "my side" statement. there is always two sides to every story. i'm just exremely concerned about what has been done to the boat that i thought was "brand new". if i would have know it's history, i would not have purchased it. thanx for the input and i'll definitely keep you posted.

[Bow Tie Omega]

While there is not a lemon law of sorts in many states for boating craft, I have been told that there has been presidence set for boat owners following the same guidlines as used with Auto lemons in many states. I just went through this with Malcolm Smith Motorsports, Yamaha and our Wave Runner, which they are now fixing to my standards. Anyways, you may want to contact an Attorney and start researching boat lemon laws for your state or the state of Florida on line. WHile you may not get your money back, you may get a judgement against the company/person selling you the boat, making life a little more difficult for him and making him think twice before he scams the next innocent buyer. Have you contacted your loan company yet and let them know what kind of boat they share ownership on. They too may have some pointers on how to proceed here, heck, they may even wnat to help you with this, being they have a vested interest in this craft. Good Luck...Joe

[Kilrtoy]

I think there are alot of shady dealers / manufactures.
My buddy almost boat this boat from a manufacture who told him it had 10 hours and was a demo boat, BUT BRAND NEW.
Right before he was going to buy it he called me and asked to check it out. SO I made the drive all the way to the armpit of the boating community. I instantly noticed a water line on the boat, On the inside. I tore the boat apart and crawled throught it. Everything was rusted. I could go on and on, but long story short. I asked if the boat had ever sank and the Manufacture said no.
I feel sorry for the dumb ass that boat that piece of shit.
No I will not mention who they are......

[Havasu Hangin']

Which part was rotten on the seat?

[rude235]

kilrtoy, why won't you mention the manufacturer??? why are these guys allowed to get away with this shit???!!!!! we spend a ton of money on our toys and shouldn't have to worry about buying a boat that's been sunk, wrecked or anything else. if you're buying a boat from an individual you're buying something "as is". when you buy something "new" from a dealer, this kind of garbage shouldn't even be in the back of someone's mind. i feel for the guy that bought the boat you were referring too, and it looks like i'm just as much of an idiot for buying my boat.
HH, the entire frame was rotten. bad enough that you could poke your finger through it. i kept the seat frame just in case i should need it.

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by rude235
HH, the entire frame was rotten. bad enough that you could poke your finger through it. i kept the seat frame just in case i should need it.
That's not good. Did you check the rest of the wood? Was there any water damage inside (from rain, etc.)?

[OutCole'd]

Are there forums like this that may apply more to the area that the dealer is in? Making his potential customers aware of his business practices may help future people to avoid this POS. It also may put some heat on him to work with you a little more.
Have you gotten an estimate of what it is going to take to rebuild your interior?

[OutCole'd]

You may also put a reference to this thread in the Hot Spots east & Central on this site also. Maybe some of his customers lurk here.

[Jbb]

MyOpinion is that at this point Eliminator has no liability...You can hardly hold them responsible this late in the game!...The dealer who bought salvage craft at an auction and sold as new,however ...is ....in my opinion guilty of fraud....

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by JETBOAT BRIAN
The dealer who bought salvage craft at an auction and sold as new,however ...is ....in my opinion guilty of fraud....
I concur.

[Jbb]

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I concur.
We think ...as one.....!

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by JETBOAT BRIAN
We think ...as one.....!
Agreed.

[Jbb]

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Agreed.
Its settled then...

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by JETBOAT BRIAN
Its settled then...
Yes...settled. We are of one mindset.

[Jbb]

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Yes...settled. We are of one mindset.
Frightening!

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by JETBOAT BRIAN
Frightening!
Yes...frighteningly similar.

[Jbb]

HH is a *****......lol.....:D

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by titties and beer
post whores
I lost a thousand or so in the changeover...so I guess I'm a born-again virgin.

[Windy]

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I lost a thousand or so in the changeover...so I guess I'm a born-again virgin.
LMAO :D

[rude235]

outcole'd, that's an excellent idea. i'll do that right now. i could also post it on offshoreonly. i'll have to look around and see if i can find a board that's geared to midwest boaters.
as far as the rest of the interior, the only way i know to check it for rot is to pull it apart (and that i have not done). i have not seen any other signs of water damage to the interior, but i couldn't tell that my driver's seat was bad either. the vinyl was in good shape, it's what was underneath that was bad.

[Nokomis]

rude,
Sorry to hear about your boat. If I were you I would contact the Attorney Generals office in both Wisconsin and Nevada and see if they will get involved, looks like a clear case of consumer fraud.
If you have anything in writing that says it was a new boat that was sold to you, you'll have Anderson Marine by the short curly ones.
Good luck.

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by rude235
as far as the rest of the interior, the only way i know to check it for rot is to pull it apart (and that i have not done). i have not seen any other signs of water damage to the interior, but i couldn't tell that my driver's seat was bad either. the vinyl was in good shape, it's what was underneath that was bad.
It's been my experience that rotten wood is rarely isolated. Unless that seat was missed when it came time to seal the wood, I'd look closely at ALL the wood, because that could be very expensive.
I'd say the seat was pre-existing, since wood does not rot overnight.
On the fuel gauge, it was pre-existing. Unless you bought the boat "as-is" (which doesn't excuse fraud), they have to fix it...factory or not.
As for everything else, I still say fraud. He misrepresented the boat.
The best thing you could do right now is to take lots of pictures, and document a case for fraud (get everything in writing). If you settle beforehand, that's a bonus...but I'd expect the worst and hope for the best.

[rude235]

here's what i don't get. say you buy a new ford from a ford dealer and you find out later that the car had been damaged, and the odometer messed with before you bought it. wouldn't ford ultimately be responsible? i realize that we are just about to '04 and the boat is an '01, but i've had the boat for a year and it was sold as a "new" boat with a new boat warranty. anderson performance is supposed to be a representative of eliminator boats which it seems would still place this at least partly in eliminators lap. of course, not letting anderson off the hook in the mean time. he's the one who apperently fixed the boats and sold them as new.

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by rude235
here's what i don't get. say you buy a new ford from a ford dealer and you find out later that the car had been damaged, and the odometer messed with before you bought it. wouldn't ford ultimately be responsible?
Uh...I don't think so. It's true the dealership has an agreement with Eliminator (the manufacturer), but the sale agreement is between you and the dealer. The manufacturer can intervene, but are probably not obligated to on something that was sold at auction.
In some cases, the dealership and manufacturer will work something out, to keep a customer happy, but it sounds like neither wants to make you happy...if you know what I mean.
Originally posted by rude235
i realize that we are just about to '04 and the boat is an '01, but i've had the boat for a year and it was sold as a "new" boat with a new boat warranty. anderson performance is supposed to be a representative of eliminator boats which it seems would still place this at least partly in eliminators lap. of course, not letting anderson off the hook in the mean time. he's the one who apperently fixed the boats and sold them as new.
In my humble (non-expert) opinion, Anderson misrepresented the boat as new (fraud). Eliminator will probably distance themselves from a dealer that commits fraud.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by JETBOAT BRIAN
MyOpinion is that at this point Eliminator has no liability...You can hardly hold them responsible this late in the game!...The dealer who bought salvage craft at an auction and sold as new,however ...is ....in my opinion guilty of fraud....
I agree with the caveat that it will depend on the state's law that would apply. In many states failure to disclose a condition or circumstance constitutes a breach of contract. Others are less consumer friendly.
RUDE did the purchase agreement have a "Governing law" clause?

[Bow Tie Omega]

Rude235, there are some good ideas here, but lets face it, it is all speculative. I was in a similar situation months ago. We bought a Yamaha SUV 4 seater 1200cc, new. The thing ran flawless until it hit 62 hours. To make a long story short, it kept shattering rings, in one cylinder at a time. It was just out of Yamaha's 1 year warranty when it blew, but we purchased the extended warranty. So, Malcolm Smith would only fix the one cylinder. To make a long story shorter, this happened 3 times, within 8 running hours. After the third time, Malcolm Smith started getting shitty. We threatened to file a lemon claim. They said go ahead, there is no lemon law. We hired and attorney specializing in lemon law. WHile there is no lemon law covering boats, there have been several actions Nation wide with boats in the boat owners favor. Once the attorney called Malcolm Smith and Yamaha and the warranty company, they all wanted to fix it to our satisfaction, boy how there tune changed whan an attorney called. It sounds to me like you not only got a lemon, but a fraud claim also which means you can sue for not only the cost of the boat but for damages (stress and suffering). If no one is willing to help you with this, then damned it, help yourself. Do not get the short end of a stick because you were lied to. It is worth the money to consult with an attorney, especially with the money you have into this. IMO, an authorized Eliminator Dealer is an extension of Eliminator, they probably had to pay a fee to Eliminator to sell Eliminators. This is why you need a good attorney, to get through the speculation and get to the hard, cold facts and find out, if any, what options you have. Speculation is great, but it will not fix your problem. Once again, good luck...Joe
P.S. Remember, Eliminator and the Dealer is banking on the fact that you will just say " ah well, my bad, that is what I get, lesson learned". Why pay if they do not have to. When an attorney calls, they know you are serious and they may loose a good lump of change.

[Dr. Eagle]

Regardless of specifics of disclosure, if it was represented as "new" it seems that you have a very strong argument that the dealer scammed you. Especially if they bought it as a salvage item at auction...how could it be new then?
I'd get an attorney to start investigating all of this stuff and go after Anderson. I don't think Eliminator has any liability here though...

[AzDon]

This isn't just fraud, it's INTERSTATE fraud! The perpetrators are counting on the distances to keep them out of court, or even suffering harm to their reputation(s). I'm unclear about whether you bought from the dealer in Wisconsin, or one in Vegas (???) I'm wondering if it isn't a little too trusting for a west coast guy to buy from a dealer in Wisconsin (again,???) Is that dealer truly an Eliminator dealer? Or did they just happen to have 3 Eliminators for sale? Your boat finance company might be able to influence this dealer if there is some way they could ruin this dealer's ability to finance boats! In any event, you need to asses the full dollar value of making this boat right so that you know what you are asking for if push comes to shove! Because of the fraud, I don't believe that you have any obligation to ship the boat for repairs or let that Wis. dealer pick the shop... Eliminator would be the most appropriate place to have the work done, so it's best not to make enemies with them, as it doesn't appear to be their fault, and you may need them on your side!

[rude235]

thanx very much to all of you that have given me opinions on this matter. please feel free to keep throwing more ideas and examples of past situations on this thread. the more situations i know of and their outcomes will help me with what directions i need to look at. i'll be making a number of phone calls and sending emails this coming week to a number of different offices and organizations that some of you have mentioned. thanx again.
james

[Kilrtoy]

Elim doesnt have any thing as far as liability, BUT you think they would step in and help a customer who was wronged by a bankrupted dealer.
I dont want to name the company If I knew you I would tell you all about it. That company is having enough trouble staying in business as it is......
Learn about boats from someone who knows. That way you dont get burned.........

[rude235]

azdon, that's a very good point. i am by no means trying piss anyone off at eliminator! if i have come across that way i do apologize. i'm just more or less "thinking out loud" and looking for opinions. i do realize the eliminator cannot watch what every dealer does with it's boats. eliminator is exactly where i would take the boat to have any work done in reference to this situation. i'm not blaming them for the actions of the dealer (who is an authorized dealer). to clear up any confusion, the boat was purchased from a dealer in wisconsin (unfortunately vegas does not have an eliminator dealer). azdon, you are absolutely right that i will need them on my side when/if it comes down to it. they know more about what happened to this boat than anyone (except of course, anderson performance).

[rude235]

kilrtoy, that's fair enough. i wasn't trying to put you on the spot. and eliminator has been very honest with me so far with details on this boat. i'm not bashing them or their product by any means. i'm just extremely frustrated about the situation:mad:

[Kilrtoy]

I disagree,
that is like saying FORD has no responsiblity for what it dealer does.....
HELL YES THEY DO

[OutCole'd]

The problem I see is that Anderson is not a Eliminator dealer. He is just a boat dealer that bought three boats from an auction. Fixed them up, and resold them. Being this boat had not been registered, it could be sold as new. That is why I believe that Eliminator could not be held resposible here. They have no control after these boats after they leave one of their dealerships. I still say, go after Anderson.

[Kilrtoy]

I missed the part the boat was sold at auction.
Now this guy, poor or rich, still doesnt have the funds that ELIM has
What would it hurt them to say, we will fix the boat at cost and no labor. They arent losing anything, BUT BUILDING a better customer base........
but then again who needs customers when your already RICH

[zooza]

I'm thinking that because this transaction and subsequent fraud crossed state boundries that It might have to go to court in a federal courthouse. Thats good because the panalties could be more severe for the guilty party.
Not 100% sure, just thinking out loud and typing it out!:D

[MudPumper]

Make sure you document EVERYTHING!!!! This includes a detailed list of damages including pictures. All dates, times, and names of everyone you have talked to at Anderson and Eliminator about the boat. Include a summary of what the conversation was about, who said what, etc..... Start doing this NOW if you are at all considering some sort of legal action. Contact a reputable attorney (if one exists) :D It sounds to me like you have the makings of a strong case. The fact that Eliminator has knowledge of the conditions of these boats before Anderson picked them up and tried to pass yours off as new only furthers the strength of the case you may have. Good luck.

[AzDon]

How did you learn of this boat? Was it an online source? If EBay, they have protections against fraud, or at least feedback opportunities. Contact any online advertizing conduits and inform them of the fraud! Call the damn FBI!!... And try to find out who bought the other two boats...strength in numbers/class action (Eliminator can probably find out!) If they aren't yet sold, I'm surprised that Eliminator hasn't threatened them about misrepresenting the product! Perhaps you could enlist locals to picket or have some outlaw bikers pay the dealer a visit or just bomb the place! Amongst all the suggestions, there's gotta be at least one phobia that a swindler isn't going to be insensitive to! One of the guys on the v-drive site wasn't seeing activity on the building of his new boat that he had 20 grand out on and the builder quickly refunded his money as soon as he realized that the story was on the internet!

[Kilrtoy]

refunded his money as soon as he realized that the story was on the internet!
And the outlaw biker gang
or Gotti's crew paid him a little visit

[rude235]

outcole'd, anderson is an eliminator dealer. his website flashes "ELIMINATOR BOATS" at the top of it. he is a "legit" dealer as opposed to a guy that just happened to find 3 high doller boats at auction for next to nuthin'. when i spoke with the folks at eliminator they did know who i was talking about.

[OutCole'd]

I did not realize he is a dealer for Eliminator. I would think this could help you alot. When Eliminator sent a rep to look at the boats before rejecting them for return, did anyone document the hour reading on your boat? Will anyone from Eliminator release any documentation on what was wrong with your boat as to why they would not accept the boat for return? I would think there has to be some kind of paper trail as to why these boats were unacceptable. Stay after Eliminator, try to find out who did the inspections, maybe you could talk to that person directly.

[playdeep]

rude 235,
As you may or may not remember...I also was talking to Bob Anderson about purchasing the Daytona that you ended up buying.
He did in fact tell me that the boat was brand new(0 hours),as well as that the boat had never even been wet.
If you need another source in order to corroborate,the lies that Anderson has perpetrated...let me know.
Michael
505-620-7622

[DaveA]

Hey James,
I'm still wondering about the rotten seat deal. Is it possible this boat was sunk, too? Saturated the foam in ALL the wood based fixtures? Look for this if you take the upholstery apart. Also, does anybody know if Eliminator seals their seat bases and other wood-based fixtures? I know that MANY manufacturers DON'T, especially if they're buying from contract third-party sources. Mine wasn't, and I'm spending the winter rebuilding perfectly good appearing seat cushions that have rotten bottoms.:mad:
Interstate fraud sounds good...
Contacting the AG's office in Wisconsin sounds good, too...
Like OutCole'd sez, will Eliminator take your discussions and their findings and reduce them to writing? (To protect themselves as much as providing a record for you). They may have had a local yacht surveyor look at the hulls in Florida, instead of going there themselves, too.

[rude235]

as far as the particulars of hour meter readings and listings of damages, i don't have anything like that yet. i do have the flooring companies name that supposedly took pics of the boats. still working on that angle.
i did learn of the boat online through a boat trader site.

[rude235]

playdeep, i had totally forgotten about that!! thanx for jumpin' in on this thread. i'll definitely be keeping your number handy, don't be surprised if you hear from me.
the idea of trying to find the owners of the other two boats is an awesome idea. they may not know anything about there boats either. i'm sure they'd be as pissed as i am to learn the history on there "brand new" boats:eek:
i don't remember who's idea it was to contact the attorney general's office, but i have flagged both the nevada office and the wisconsin office's website. i'll be contacting them this week. i'll let ya'll know what they tell me.

[C-2]

As for trying to collect known information about the boat...
If you can find the auction house that Anderson purchased the boats from, you might get the answers you have about the condition of your boat – and whether or not Anderson in fact committed a fraud upon you.
Most auction houses are required by law to maintain detailed records of all sales, listings and their dispositions. If the dealership was in bankruptcy, then Anderson most likely bought the boats from an auctioneer representing the bankruptcy estate (of the dealership). The boats would have been sold to help pay the creditors of the dealership. If so, the info might be found in the bankruptcy case file. Normally the case files will have the flyers the auctioneer advertises to the public (and who knows what else the file might contain).
Private mail me the names you have and I can check this for you.
You might also bounce this off of BoatPI – he knows his stuff regarding boat thefts, boat insurance fraud, etc., I’m sure he must also know something about the process of fraudulent boat sales. His name is Keith, do a search under his screen name of BoatPI to find his PM address.
I would start with trying to get some cold hard facts before you start talking to an attorney. What is your primary goal in this pursuit, anyways?
Take Playdeep up on his offer and drop him a phone call, collect some more leads. BTW, whazzuup Mike, heard you gotta new boat?
IMO, Anderson acted outside his relationship with Eliminator on this transaction – I don’t see how they should/could be responsible for anything. Just my opinion.
:)

[Bow Tie Omega]

Actually, in my experiences, My dealer was an authorized dealer for Yamaha, which made the relationship similar to a Yamaha franchise, which according to the attorney made Yamaha and the dealer liable for the repair or replacement of my boat. If Anderson was an authorized dealer for Eliminator, you may have the same argument, fraud or not. Anderson is obviously the perpetrator in this issue, but if they are an authorized dealer for Eliminator, Eliminator needs to be more careful about who they let represent there nameand there fore share partial responsibility. Do you see the ties here. If your dealer is not an authorized Eliminator Dealer, then you may have some issues. But I find it curious that Eliminator already knew about this

[rude235]

c-2, i took you up on your suggestion to contact boatpi. i sent him a pm tonight. what names are you asking me for? i don't have any info on the other boat owners but i'd love to figure out who they are. the auction house could be a pretty sweet find too!! you can be sure i'll calling playdeep, most likely tonight.
bow tie, if you don't mind i would like to pm you if i have any additional questions about how you handled certain things with your case. if you would rather not, i'll understand.
thanx again for everyone's help, advice and opinions.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by rude235
outcole'd, anderson is an eliminator dealer. his website flashes "ELIMINATOR BOATS" at the top of it. he is a "legit" dealer as opposed to a guy that just happened to find 3 high doller boats at auction for next to nuthin'. when i spoke with the folks at eliminator they did know who i was talking about.
I think the key to this one is that the boats ended up in Andersons hands in a way other than the normal dealer supply chain. They bought them from a third party after Eliminator had refused to take them back because their condition constituted abuse and therefore a breach of contract.
Even if Anderson is an Eliminator dealer, they obtained these boats through another source. I think Eliminator is technically right to refuse to deal with the boat issue. It seems like to build a loyal customer base it might be worth the investment to fix the probs...

[Kilrtoy]

This thread has been viewed by 785 now.
So based on that probably about 300 people give or take. These are 300 people who will tell 2 friends and we all know how that works.
Even if it causes two lost sales, it would have been cheaper to help the guy out......
Word of mouth is better than a reputation not rightfully earned.........

[rude235]

Dr. and kilrtoy, i agree with both of you. it has been viewed by a fairly large number of people, most or all of which are boating nuts. most of us hang out with other boat nuts and word can travel pretty fast. hopefully i can get a resolution to this problem fairly quickly. afterall, boating season is getting closer and closer:D

[rude235]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nokomis
If you have anything in writing that says it was a new boat that was sold to you, you'll have Anderson Marine by the short curly ones.
i just went back through some paperwork and i do have paperwork that is stamped saying the boat is a new boat.

[C-2]

rude235
PM me or post the name of the dealership that went bankrupt.
I still don't think Eliminator is the bad guy in this deal (I could care less - they're not my gig anyway, I am not trying to defend them). However, you might reserve judgment and/or any libelous statements until your situation has been resolved, or at the minimum until you collect more facts.
:)

[Kilrtoy]

I dont want anyone to think im saying Elim Is a bad guy.
I have said the opposite.
BUT HELL they are the big guy here.
help out the little guy......

[Dave C]

I think fraud is hard to prove here especially if the boat was sold as used and “as is.” It all depends on what the contract says or what you can "prove" and if there is an “expressed warranty.”
If it was sold as "new" then I think an "implied" warranty applies so call an attorney.
I think that the dealer misrepresented himself. He can’t use an excuse that he did not know what is going on if the damages are apparent because a court would not buy that excuse.
It seems that the manufacturer is not liable because they are only liable for an “implied warranty for a specific use” or if their specific expressed warranty is still valid and because they are not liable for damages of a previous owner.
Having said that call the local D.A and make a complaint. Misrepresenting the hours is a good start.
Also interstate commerce is an issue here but its hard to complain if you didn’t use the U.S. mail.
If this was me, I would demand that he refund all your money and take the boat back because of "gross misrepresentation".
Good luck

[HavasuDreamin']

If you don't have anything in writing from Anderson that says "new" on it, then you are screwed. All Mr. Anderson needs to say in this situation is "I told him it was like new."
You need to dig out ALL of your paper work and see what sort of facts you are dealing with. He said she said doesn't go very far in court.
Best of Luck. :cool:

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by HavasuDreamin'
If you don't have anything in writing from Anderson that says "new" on it, then you are screwed. All Mr. Anderson needs to say in this situation is "I told him it was like new."
You need to dig out ALL of your paper work and see what sort of facts you are dealing with.
Originally posted by rude235
i just went back through some paperwork and i do have paperwork that is stamped saying the boat is a new boat.

[HavasuDreamin']

Alrighty then. :rolleyes: Get together some $$$$$ and go talk to an attorney. Good Luck :cool:

[C-2]

hmmm...
I re-read the original post several times, and after doing so have changed my opinion about Eliminator. While Anderson might have acted outside his agreement with Eliminator, they certainly knew the boats were out there.
What about the fuel sending unit? Is this part on the motor itself? Was it a mercruiser motor, if so, maybe track the boat's history via the mercruiser motor? Did the motor have a warranty and did you receive a copy of it, along with the manuals and other garb you get with a new motor?
If Anderson told you there was 20-30 hours on the boat, didn't you ask how the boat could be considered "new."? If so, before you purchased it, what was there explanation?
Even if you retain an attorney, you should still collect as much information as you can on your own. Otherwise an attorney will charge you for doing it.
No bankruptcy records for International Yacht Sales, it must have been another name. Foley should know it since he visited the location. Get the name of the owner as well if possible, we'll see if he is in prison or not.

[rude235]

it sounds like i have a few phone calls to make:eek: :D

[THATJEFFGUY]

In my opinion...just chalk it up as a lesson learned. Then go handle it "Tony Soprano" style...and fuhgettaboutit !!

[BoatPI]

Thanks C-2, and Rude ha sbeen speaking to me. My new E mail is BoatPI@verizon.net. Most of you have provided good advice.
It all rests on the purchasers sholders. He was clearly the victim of fraud, or as defined in many states, grand theft. At the very least the dollar value between this salvaged boat, and a new boat. Remember new is a loose term. In CA new is defined as a boat or car not previously sold to the public. Although somewhat different of motor vehicles, a "new" vehicle can ONLY be sold by a franchsied dealer. Remember the Daewoo selloff, most were sold at 50% retail as USED.
The loss most likley ocurred in WI. So here in lies the lawsuit, and a letter to attorney general.
And a final thought to all, Todd Schwede, Todd and Assc., the guy I do most of my work for has a very interesting part of his business. He has a color thermal imaging camera. And he knows how to use it and testify in court as an expert. He is able to determine if damage is a result of a water leak, manufacturer defect, or other issues. This info in on his websire at WWW.boatman.com (http://Boatman.com)

[rude235]

thanx so much for your help PI!! i checked out his website and his setup looks pretty damn sweet! i noticed on your avatar that you're in LHC, is that where todd and associates is located as well??

[BoatPI]

Todd can be reached at 619/226-1895, in San Diego. He is a member of the board of directors, International Assn. of Marine Investigators (IAMI). I am a member, along with Detective Troy Sterling, Lake Havasu City P.D., and 2,000 other marine investigators throughout the world.
His website has a section describing the digital thermal imagine photography. He was hired to investigate and photograph Dennis Connor's world class sailboat, "Stars and Stripes" after it sank in Long Beach. Todd traveled to New Zeland. Very interesting stuff. He also recreates boating colissions with a new software that develops a digital dvd creating the colission. No $$ to me on this plug, just top notch hign tech work worth mentioning.
If you are in the insurance investigation business or you are an active marine surveyor like Todd, this is the organization to belong to. We are all in a tight loop and share information weekly.

[rude235]

thanx for the info PI, so i guess it's safe to say they know their stuff:D

[mickeyfinn]

Contact the auction house. I know in Georgia that when a bankruptcy auction takes place items must be noted as to whether they are "new with warranty" or used sold as is where is. If he purchased these boats as is where is then they are no longer considered to be "new" and sales as such would be fraud. Also if they are truly a licensed or authorized dealer and as a part of your sales agreement you have something in writing stating the warranty for your "new" boat then elim is on the hook. It doesn't mean that it is their fault but the dealer you purchased for was acting as an agent for elim. They are able to make deals and commit to contracts on their behalf. I have been through this with a couple of different products. None of them boating related. Sounds to me like the people who are advising you to talk to an attorney are right on. A good attorney will do all of the research for you and then you can collect the legal fees as part of the judgement. Make sure you have enough paperwork and information available for the attoney to make informed evaluation of your case during the initial consultation. You want to make sure elim is on the hook before racking up legal fees. The dealer may not be able to afford the judgement and bakruptcy would put you back on the hook for the legal fees.

[rude235]

it was definitely sold as a new boat and came with a new boat warranty. in fact, it has an extended warranty. thanx for the advice mickeyfinn.