6.3 mph gain from setup [Archive]

Squirtcha?

01-01-2004, 06:30 PM

There's no way I can't post up about this deal. I know the naysayers are gonna be all over it and I'll probably catch some crap but this is the god's honest truth.
After speaking with Duane Oblander on the phone as well as sending some emails with pictures and short video clips of my boat running, he recommended the longest of the Snoots with a 4 degree pin offset and sent it out. The first test I set it up with a 3 degree up wedge and ended up bettering my non-nitrous top speed by 2.4 mph.
At this time Duane and I were sending 3-4 emails back and forth per day discussing different setup options etc. to improve on an already good thing. He fedex'ed me a set of wedges 4, 1.5, and 1 degree wedge so I would have them for the next trip out. I installed 5.5 degrees of wedge and took it out today 01-01-04 and ran 80 mph!
That's a 6.3 mph increase by doing nothing more than switching from a PD droop to the Hi-Tech Snoot and doing some setup work.
That's so cool, I'm gonna say it again.....
That's a 6.3 mph increase by doing nothing more than switching from a PD droop to the Hi-Tech Snoot and doing some setup work.
With the nitrous I should be running close to 87 mph.
Duane is the consummate professional and was great to work with. Many thanks
http://jetboat.homestead.com/gpsII.jpg

Jake W

01-01-2004, 06:39 PM

Dan that is bitchen.Post up some pics of your boat with the snoot on it.
That is alot of up wedge what did you have the rideplate at?
Jake
:eek:

Squirtcha?

01-01-2004, 07:01 PM

This should read.....................how to tune your ride by phone/email. Here's a couple photos that we sent back and forth in order to figure out the setup and associated angles etc. Not too scientific I reckon, but it worked.
http://jetboat.homestead.com/5.5_degrees.jpg
http://jetboat.homestead.com/5.5_degrees_cr.jpg

Doug H.

01-01-2004, 07:14 PM

Very cool news and illustration Squirtcha, glad to see big improvements on your rig. :)

Jet City

01-01-2004, 08:07 PM

Thats surprising, great gain for so little changed, nicely done Duane. The fact that you were out in your boat today indicates to me that I'm living in the wrong state!

565edge

01-01-2004, 08:30 PM

That is a great improvement.So the point of lowering the thrust point to give lift isnt important with this?Or is it so long that it ends up being as low as a droop with better flow?Duane has some good products.I got hos jetaway this past year and it sure helped me from getting thrown out after a 110mph shutdown.Let us know when you use the nos.

flat broke

01-01-2004, 08:35 PM

Congratulations Dan!!!
That's one hell of a way to ring in a happy new year. You know I'm genuinely happy you got that kind of increase by working with your setup, but I have to ask, did air temp play into the equation? Were the RPMs that you got the new speed at, the same as the RPM your previous high speed was set at. Either way its a bitchen increase and it looks like the bar will set just a little bit higher for being considered fast this summer. Remember to keep it safe.
Chris

likwidsukr

01-01-2004, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Squirtcha?
This should read.....................how to tune your ride by phone/email. Here's a couple photos that we sent back and forth in order to figure out the setup and associated angles etc. Not too scientific I reckon, but it worked.
http://jetboat.homestead.com/5.5_degrees.jpg
http://jetboat.homestead.com/5.5_degrees_cr.jpg
So Dan did you get that for your B-day? Did you sell the other droop yet? I think it would get my boat out and on the water faster with more mph!!

Squirtcha?

01-01-2004, 09:08 PM

Chris,
I ran the 73.7 mph with the old setup two weeks ago with temps/humidity and water conditions almost identical.
I'm sure that when we hit our typical 100+ degree days, it'll taper off some, but I wouldn't think more than a mph or two. RPMs were up from 5300 to 5400.
565,
That's an excellent question and one that I've pondered too. Is it the drop or just extending it backwards?
Jet City,
Yeah, it's definitely one of the cool things about living in AZ. Year round boating is great. I wouldn't want to swim or ski but it's fine for getting out and taking a cruise or testing stuff.
Likwid,
Nope still got my PD droop. I will need to sell it in order to help pay for my birthday present. Unfortunately, it seems nobody can give you a definitive answer on this setup stuff (even the guys that've been doing it for years). It'd be especially tough with your boat since there are so few of them out there.
Doug H,
Thank you

Duane HTP

01-01-2004, 09:29 PM

565, There is no lowering of the thrust line with the Snoot set up unless one is installed with down wedge, and they usually don't like that. It actually raises the thrust line in a lot of cases. On the faster boats we use the original Snoot which is exactly the same length, (lever arm), as a droop. On boats like Scuirtcha's, sometimes they like the extra lever arm, but the 4 degree up steering pin axis is a must to get the boat off of the water without putting so much down pressure on the tail of the boat like a droop does. As a person adds more HP and goes faster and faster, a lot of the time you have to go to the Snoot with the zero degree pin axis.
Squirtcha, Glad to hear the good news. I enjoyed working with you. Duane HTP

quiet riot

01-02-2004, 12:36 AM

Duane, now you just need to make a snoot for a legend pump for me.:D I know my boat didn't like the down force of the legend droop, thats why I had to cut some angle and droop outta it.
Congrats on the improvements squirtcha, wonder how much of a diff you'll see with the n2o.
jd

ChetCapoli

01-02-2004, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Jake W
That is alot of up wedge what did you have the rideplate at?
That is alot of up wedge....have to ask what other setup work was done besides this snoot. If memory serves you still have a flat shoe on it and you didnt do much in that area. Is this correct? Just wondering if that speed increase could have been accomplished with the right shoe and loader setup with your droop. Saved some $$$ in the process instead of using a "quick fix" for big money. Now relax out there guys...just an honest insight is all, nothing more and nothing less. THINK ABOUT IT??
Reason why is that I tried 7 different loaders in my boat and had 7 different results.(A very cheap loader worked the best while a big $$$ race loader worked the worst...glad i had them to try for FREE ) Also i should note my boat went the slowest with a FLAT shoe. It liked a backcut and tapered shoe the best.
Great increase though mr squirtcha?...that's $87 per mile an hour.
CHET:D

Squirtcha?

01-02-2004, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by ChetCapoli
That is alot of up wedge....have to ask what other setup work was done besides this snoot. If memory serves you still have a flat shoe on it and you didnt do much in that area. Is this correct? Just wondering if that speed increase could have been accomplished with the right shoe and loader setup with your droop. Saved some $$$ in the process instead of using a "quick fix" for big money. Now relax out there guys...just an honest insight is all, nothing more and nothing less. THINK ABOUT IT??
Reason why is that I tried 7 different loaders in my boat and had 7 different results.(A very cheap loader worked the best while a big $$$ race loader worked the worst...glad i had them to try for FREE ) Also i should note my boat went the slowest with a FLAT shoe. It liked a backcut and tapered shoe the best.
Great increase though mr squirtcha?...that's $87 per mile an hour.
CHET:D
Well Chet
I have to compliment you on your civil response, and your questions are good ones. Yes, you're correct. I'm still running a flat shoe. My hopes are that the tapered backcut shoe along with the new piece from Duane will only add to what I have now and I believe it is a very real possibility. If the correct shoe adds lift to the back of the boat, or more likely the whole boat, it will probably result in more speed. I agree that a flat shoe is probably not the best choice especially for a semi-v type hull.
So far I find that ride adjustments (anything that frees up the hull) tend to be additive. Just about anything you do to get your boat out of the water can only result in an increase in speed. Mine is still nice n stable/predictable so not at all dangerous. If it ever gets to that point, I'll gladly scrub off some speed to keep from injuring or killing myself, or others.
I too have access to some different type loaders and intend to experiment with those as well as a backcut and or tapered shoe.
As for the $87 per mph (and I know you've heard this one before) It's my money.
Jake,
The rideplate is currently set at 4.7 degrees in relation to the shoe. It's actually still setup for the old droop and I will try experimenting with some different settings on another trip. I had my son and one of his friends along yesterday and didn't want them to have to sit around while I tried setup changes. Quite a few different things I can still experiment with. Could you imagine me telling these two to get out so I can make some changes?
http://jetboat.homestead.com/da_boyz.jpg

flat broke

01-02-2004, 11:06 AM

Dan,
I can't wait to hear your results after runnnig a back cut shoe on that boat. I would bet with the right loader selection the shoe will really help get you a little extra lift. Do you have any new photos of the boat's wetted surface area with the new changes? I think Hacker should be paying attention to this thread as his heavy 19 could definitely use a little more lift. If you only loose 100RPM between now and summer, you're still going t be moving along pretty good come CBBB :) Any chance of a bigger Nos system in the works? You've got to be pleased as you are running up there at Mike C speeds now. Any chance we'll see you down here at the BBSP this year?
Keep it safe and congratulations again,
Chris

Squirtcha?

01-02-2004, 11:19 AM

No, unfortunately I didn't get any photos or video. Sure wish I had now. Next time out I'll be sure to get some.
I don't believe I'll put the bigger 200 hp kit on it. At least not yet. I seriously considered it, but I kinda like not having to mess with nitrous retarding boxes etc. I also think about the cost of the N20. I can get a dozen 1/4 mile runs out of my bottle now. If I bump it up to a 150 kit it'll only be 8. At 200 it'll only be 6 etc. in addition I get a little concerned about the extra wear n tear on the motor. I don't want to have to rebuild for a few years.
My boat is a tub. It's very heavy and I didn't buy it to race. I just want it to be respectable and I think 85 - 90 should do that.
I'm hoping to make it to the BBSP this spring. I had a blast there last year.

disco_charger

01-02-2004, 12:30 PM

I'd really love to try one, but am really hesitant to put out the money. Obviously, Duane doesn't do this as a hobby and expects (rightfully so) to be paid. I'm curious about the concept. It looks to me like this thing not only sets your thrust back, but maybe reduces? If it does reduce, has anyone noticed if the boat doesn't leave as hard? I'm getting ready to add a diverter to my set up, but I'm going to wedge it down, because the boat lifts really well anyway. I just think that moving the thrust line back would be the a pretty big (3 to 4 mph) benefit for not too much money ($100 for the droop and steering extension). I'm on a pretty low budget, and I've got a lot of money going out already.
Disco ( yeah I know, I probably still believe the world is flat, because I never use anything new )

matt1

01-02-2004, 02:48 PM

Hey Daune ya might want to cast a few of these if the tooling isnt to expensive,for the jetters with little to know buget.

TRG

01-02-2004, 03:08 PM

is it me, or do you hear more and more people who use the back cut shoe in their set-up?
also,...how many types of loaders are avail.? thanks todd

HavasuBarney

01-02-2004, 06:05 PM

Or am I sensing a lot of prop envy in this thread.... :D

youngster

01-02-2004, 08:41 PM

hey barn...this is toddnjuzz..when my lawn starts growing in early spring...then, and only then, i'll have that sort of envy!lol
hope you had a nice season bro!
P.S. i might be comming out for the WHAKKA SMAKKA party...for that coldie we've talked about! later bro! todd

youngster

01-02-2004, 08:43 PM

hot boat gave my alternate ego das boot'!
it happens about 2-3 times a month.....and i dont even talk that much shit!!lmfao

HavasuBarney

01-02-2004, 08:48 PM

I been checking out some cool porn so I might just smack my wacka tonite... ;)
So what's this about you jet guys getting together in a group and doing it? :eek:
I always wondered about you guys... is it a race? :D

youngster

01-02-2004, 09:06 PM

no we call it "circle jetting"! i mean "circle jerking"!lol

Ken F

01-03-2004, 07:52 AM

Chet,
You are right in your thinking, but the snoot is not a "quick-fix". Squirtcha has a back-cut shoe on the way, which will augment the set-up of the snoot. The optimum will be for him to get the back-cut shoe installed and set up, experiment with different loaders, and probably also go back through the rideplate settings....possibly even alter the amount of wedges before the snoot before all is said and done.
Short answer: They work in harmony with each other.
When I installed the snoot on my boat, last spring, I saw a 7.4 mph increase.
Ken F

checkmate76

01-03-2004, 01:32 PM

:confused: can anyone see a gain of 7.4 mph just by adding a snoot (was that a hi-tech snoot or droop snoot)? I have a 76 checkmate 18' which I believe to be rather heavy. currently running a 460 BBF w/bekeley JG/place diverter...no shoe or ride plate.
not pushing a lot of HP maybe 375-400?
any help on set-up would be greatly appreciated:)

Ken F

01-03-2004, 02:28 PM

Checkmate,
Yes, it was a Hi-Tech snoot. I had just done a set-back pump, and blueprinted the bottom. I drug the boat to Hi-Tech (5 hrs.) to hire Duane for a day to hlep me get the set-up right after all the mods.
My boat is really heavy too, almost a 2000 lb hull, open bow. We had tried everything for two days, Changing impellers, loaders, bowls, with and without the droop snoot, and the best that we were able to acheive was a little over 65. The next week, The first snoot came out of the Machine shop, Duane bolted it on, and BAM....There it was.
Squirtcha? has some more hiding there too...just needs some more time to adjust it out!
Ken F

ChetCapoli

01-03-2004, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Ken F
[QUOTE]
You are right in your thinking, but the snoot is not a "quick-fix".
It's not??? Are you sure?? I think with a flat shoe it is. I know if it was me and someone(a jet guru) said " listen Chester, you can either spend $75 on a shoe(in my experience, could be better for your application than the shoe you have) or spend $500 on a snoot(in my experience, equally as good) to go faster than you are you can bet your A$$ the shoe would be my(and most jetters) first choice. You gotta wonder why it wasnt done that way since i would think he would rather have spent less $$ in his quest to achieve the same/more speed. No offense to mr. squirtcha of course since the choice was, ultimately his.
I would be willing to bet money that if he put his droop back on, got a backcut AND/OR tapered shoe, changed/modified his loader,invest a good 2days of test/tune.... he would achieve the same 80mph speed(maybe more) he just did for.....LESS MONEY. As i said before my boat ran the slowest with a flat shoe....like 12mph slower(75mph). Tapered shoe...add 3mph.....add backcut....4mph...adjust with shims...another 2mph.......loader changes....anywhere from -6 to a +3(78mph to 87mph). 87mph was my best. Oh yes, add .5mph for the towel racks.:wink:
Dont get me wrong...it would be interesting to see how the snoot would work on my boat. Too bad i just cant justify the $500 it costs for what i would consider a gamble...especially if it ended up on my wall as a showpiece...labled, "quick fix". :D
Squirtcha has a back-cut shoe on the way, which will augment the set-up of the snoot. The optimum will be for him to get the back-cut shoe installed and set up, experiment with different loaders, and probably also go back through the rideplate settings....possibly even alter the amount of wedges before the snoot before all is said and done.
Wow...you sound quite rehearsed and seem to know what you talking about. What's the reason you didnt do the work on your boat yourself rather than spending big $$$ to have it done??? Just curious.
Short answer: They work in harmony with each other.
Seems like you are working "in harmony" with the promoter of this fine piece.:D (You guys are are all over the net.....i thought HBjet was bad:rolleyes:)) As stated above..it would be interesting how his original droop works "in harmony" with a proper shoe setup since it has not been tried and "ultimately" could be just as good.
When I installed the snoot on my boat, last spring, I saw a 7.4 mph increase.
let me get this straight....your intake was machined for a shoe correct?? What kind of results did you have with the different shoe's you tried before you installed the snoot??
AGAIN...i'm just asking some reasonable questions here.....so to all you guys in cyberland..... take it easy. Better yet go make some popcorn.
CHET

Ken F

01-03-2004, 11:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChetCapoli
[B]
Wow...you sound quite rehearsed and seem to know what you talking about. What's the reason you didnt do the work on your boat yourself rather than spending big $$$ to have it done??? Just curious.
Chet: I did do a lot of the work myself.
New floor, complete interior, blueprinted the bottom, fab'd the rails & mounts, and did the setback. When it came to the set-up, Duane suggested that I bring the boat to him. to help with the set-up. It turned out to be the best thing I have ever done. You see, he has a small lake that is a 10 min tow from the shop. You can go to the shop, do your changes, and be back trying it 30 minutes later. Pause and think here. How much money and time would I have spent to try 2 agressor bowls, 3 impellers, 2 different droops and different shoes, not to mention the fact that I didn't really know what I was doing when it came to set-up. Yes, I could have spent the summer floundering and changing parts, but this way I was able to enjoy the boat all summer instead of buying lots of expensive parts & trying to solve it on my own.
Duane has spent countless hours with me e-mailing back and forth & talking on the phone trying to help me with my boat because we have become good friends. He has allowed me to "hang-out" with him at several races, and even help a little working on the R & D Express between runs. He is a great guy, and a good teacher, always willing to answer questions. I'd like to think that rather than "rehearsed", maybe I've learned a few things. I know that I've learned enough to realize how much I don't know!
[B]
Seems like you are working "in harmony" with the promoter of this fine piece.:D (You guys are are all over the net.....i thought HBjet was bad:rolleyes:))
Squirtcha and I are pretty good friends. In fact CHet, I took MY snoot off of MY boat and sent it to Squirtcha to try. It was only after much prompting from me, that Dan called Duane for some long distance help setting it up.
[B]
let me get this straight....your intake was machined for a shoe correct?? What kind of results did you have with the different shoe's you tried before you installed the snoot??
As stated above, 65.? was the best we could do with all the changes stated above. After the two days I left the boat there, planning to return. When the first snoot came off the machine, Duane put it on, and as soon as he was able to quit doing hand-stands, he called to let me know the good news! Then I started doing handstands. lol
Chet, I've tried to ignore your sarcasm and cynicsm in my response and give you straightforward honest answers to your questions. All I'm saying is that the snoot has had the same results on 3 boats now that I know of personally. Squirtcha makes 4. As with anything, it's not going to work on EVERY boat, but after talking to Squirtcha, and seeing movies of him running, I felt that it would help him tremendously.
He's now running 6.3 mph faster than he was.......the quick fix made him quite a bit quicker.
Ken F

ChetCapoli

01-04-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Ken F
[QUOTE]
Chet: I did do a lot of the work myself.
New floor, complete interior, blueprinted the bottom, fab'd the rails & mounts, and did the setback
Sorry ken, i did not know this. For some reason all that i have read implied you had the blueprint,setback and pump done for ya and had over two grand invested.
How much money and time would I have spent to try 2 agressor bowls, 3 impellers, 2 different droops and different shoes, not to mention the fact that I didn't really know what I was doing when it came to set-up. Yes, I could have spent the summer floundering and changing parts, but this way I was able to enjoy the boat all summer instead of buying lots of expensive parts & trying to solve it on my own.
I'll agree with you it is alot of time to test and change stuff as i also had alot of parts to try on my boat. How many different shoes and adjustments to them did you do? Like mentioned i had the most improvements by working with them. Wouldnt seem like you had enough time in only one day after trying all those impellers/bowls and such to really test shoes to much?? Since you mentioned bowls here, i must ask(for hbjet too :D) how much improvement, if any, did you see in those bowls over the berkeley???
As stated above, 65.? was the best we could do with all the changes stated above
So what parts did you end up with on your boat for that 65mph figure?? Most important what kind of shoe and shim used if any?
Chet, I've tried to ignore your sarcasm and cynicsm in my response and give you straightforward honest answers to your questions. All I'm saying is that the snoot has had the same results on 3 boats now that I know of personally. Squirtcha makes 4.
No need to ignore it ken, if i'm out of line say so. Everyone else comes out of nowhere to say so as i also get PM's saying "good job", "keep up the entertainment". Whatever suits your fancy i guess.:) All i know is, I look for the "best bang for buck" as i am sure most jetters do(except HBJet) and i am just skeptical of something VERY EXPENSIVE that might not work. In all the pics on the net of raceboats and fast lake boats and such 99% have droops and not snoots...why is that?? (Racers have endless wallets so it cant be the money factor right) This snoot is nothing new i gather as Amercianturbine has one and made it years ago. I think that is also pretty pricey...maybe thats why you dont see them or maybe they just dont work, who knows for sure. If you want to send yours to me to try on my boat i'll gladly accept! :D Then we'll both know and i'll be in that 1% minority with ya. Whatdiathink?
He's now running 6.3 mph faster than he was.......the quick fix made him quite a bit quicker.
Would it be safe to say that the same 6.3mph could be picked up by a proper shoe change in his boat?? You mentioned you are sending him a shoe correct? You'd be an even better friend by saving him some(alot of) money on top of helping him out(if thats who you are truly helping) that way you know. I'm sure he'd love ya for it.
CHET

Ken F

01-04-2004, 05:32 PM

Chet,
First and formost, let me compliment you.
I was fully expecting you to come back and flame me, and I'd like to say thanks for not doing that. Those type of responses are exactly why I don't post over here much.
Second....we've kinda hi-jacked Squirtcha's thread here, and I'd like to appologize to him for that.
In answer to your question on bowls, at the time we were changing bowls, speed was not really a consideration. We had Duanes guages hooked up to the intake to measure pressure, and another to the bowl, at that point we were just trying to get the pressures dialed in. For my perticular application (which was no where near normal) we ended up with an agressor 9 vane, and an agressor A/B impeller. I'm developing a bad case of CRS disease, and really dont' remember what all we tried. I've got it documented somewhere, but can't put my hands on it at the moment.
Concerning the shoe, Dan has one ordered somewhere local to him...at least that is my understanding. The back-cut shoe probably wouldn't do much good below 80 anyway, so he has gone about it in the right way.
Ken F

01-04-2004, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Ken F
Chet,
The back-cut shoe probably wouldn't do much good below 80 anyway, so he has gone about it in the right way.
Ken F
o really... and you base this conclusion on what?

Ken F

01-04-2004, 06:19 PM

BP-
Guess I was just thinking as I typed on that one. ...don't really have a basis for that statment, just an opinion I suppose.
It seems to me that as heavy as the boat is, that until you reach about 80, it probably wouldn't do much good.
I may be wrong, what is your opinion?
(obviously different) I'd be interested in hearing what you think.
Ken F

Squirtcha?

01-04-2004, 07:46 PM

I've been gone all day and haven't had a chance to look in here. May I say, I'm very impressed with the posts and some good points have been raised. I'd first like to say that I'm extremely pleased with the product and service provided by Duane and I have no regrets regarding the direction I've chose to take.
The first point that jumps out at me is the phrase "bandaid". In my mind that term implies that it's something temporary and I'd say that is not the case here. The only way it'll get undone, is if I take it off, which I'm not about to do.
I'm no expert (obviously) but I'm trying to think about this thing analytically. It seems that there is no one thing that does it all. Just setting back a pump and adding a shoe and rideplate probably won't result in the maximum speed that a boat is capable of (this one I know first hand). Just adding a droop (or snoot) for that matter won't be the "big fix". The proper impeller for your max horsepower at a certain rpm won't do it either (tried that one too) although it's a biggie. Rather all these things combined, and properly set up is what will get you to your goals.
It'll be interesting to see what my next step will do for me (tapered backcut shoe). In my case, I can still benefit from getting yet more boat out of the water and I'm anxious to see what happens.
Let me ask ya's this.....................anybody.................. do you think
there's more in the old girl yet? I'm betting the price of a shoe.............. that there is.
Good job on the posts guys. We all have opinions and that's just a fact of life. I think this thread proves that those opinions can be voiced without hostility, and still give some food for thought.

Ken F

01-04-2004, 07:57 PM

Dan,
You put it a lot more elloquently than I could have, but I agree that it is a great discussion!
I'll bet that you have some more in "the ol girl". It's just a matter of doing some tweeking now!
Ken

disco_charger

01-04-2004, 08:14 PM

It's funny, because I've been waiting for someone to answer my question, and watching this. No one ever answered my question, however everyone has been banging on the same principal that applies to all jet boats. You can throw all the horsepower you want at a jet boat, but if you don't set it up right, it means nothing. I would suspect that most of us understand that every different bottom requires something different. One off billet stuff ain't cheap. People deserve to be paid for the things that sometimes take years to develop. I see no wrong doing here by either Chet or Mike . Chet makes some good points, Mike makes good points, but perhaps there are different routes to go to the same place? ;)
Does this Snoot reduce down more than a droop? Did you notice any difference when the boat came out of the hole? Thanks!:D

Squirtcha?

01-04-2004, 08:27 PM

Sorry disco. I saw your thread and must've got distracted. I actually went out to the garage and did an outside measurement of the droop and snoot when I saw your first post. I know it has little bearing on the inside dimensions but I have no way to accurately measure that. They appear to be pretty close. To answer your question, I saw no perceptible loss with regards to my holeshot. One of my flattie driving buddies (who's getting a little nervous about now) said he thought it came out of the hole a little harder than it used to.
That's kinda hard to tell from shore and will probably have to wait til we line up against each other again.
Ready Wild Bill?

01-04-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Ken F
BP-
Guess I was just thinking as I typed on that one. ...don't really have a basis for that statment, just an opinion I suppose.
It seems to me that as heavy as the boat is, that until you reach about 80, it probably wouldn't do much good.
I may be wrong, what is your opinion?
(obviously different) I'd be interested in hearing what you think.
Ken F
without going into great detail of what i have or what i have tried, and what the results were, the bottom line is that the keel will have more lift with a backcut shoe at any speed (planed) than it would with a flat shoe.
as far as heavy, my hull weighs in excess of 680lbs stripped of everything but the steering wheel. there are significant differences in et with this thing when going from a flat to a backcut shoe.

Ken F

01-04-2004, 08:50 PM

BP, okay I agree on the fact that a backcut shoe will lift the keel. That is their purpose, but it still seems to me that a BCShoe would have a much more pronounced effect on a lighter tunnel hull going say 100mph., than it would on a heavier V-bottom running 70. It's not a very big pad (or surface area) pushing up on a fairly heavy boat. My thinking was, that until you got the V-bottom out of the water, and moving pretty good on it's transom & rideplate, that it wouldn't be hardly noticable.
I could be wrong here, and would appreciate your thoughts.
Ken F

Duane HTP

01-04-2004, 09:27 PM

The Snoot is not smaller than the droop on the squeeze down. It is .090" larger. The Snoot has helped the hole shot for all of the boats so far that have been on the clocks.
Unchained, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What is your opinion?
Roger, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What's your opinion?
Dan Simmerly, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks, what's your opinion?
I would appreciate any answers. Thanks!

Cas

01-04-2004, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by bp
without going into great detail of what i have or what i have tried, and what the results were, the bottom line is that the keel will have more lift with a backcut shoe at any speed (planed) than it would with a flat shoe.
as far as heavy, my hull weighs in excess of 680lbs stripped of everything but the steering wheel. there are significant differences in et with this thing when going from a flat to a backcut shoe.
Bob,
You say you have a heavy hull but what is the weight to power ratio? I'm kind of leaning with Ken on this based only on a practical application thought process. From what I understand, Kachina's are a pretty heavy hull plus there's a lot of stuff attached that a raceboat won't have. On top of that, there is less hp and probably less stroking of the pump not taking into consideration totally different hull types.
Maybe one of the pro's can give an opinion based on experience with numerous types of hulls?

Duane HTP

01-05-2004, 06:57 AM

I'm going to have to retract my statement about the Snoot being .090" bigger than the droop snoot. It is .090" bigger than the first droop that I measured. I went to the shelf and measured three different brands of droops and they are not all the same size. However, the Snoot was some bigger than each one of them.

Unchained

01-05-2004, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Duane HTP
Unchained, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What is your opinion?
Roger, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What's your opinion?
I would appreciate any answers. Thanks! [/B]
I'm sold on the straight snoot. The whole principal of not bending the water flow two extra times is the key. Less restriction.

01-05-2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Ken F
BP, okay I agree on the fact that a backcut shoe will lift the keel. That is their purpose, but it still seems to me that a BCShoe would have a much more pronounced effect on a lighter tunnel hull going say 100mph., than it would on a heavier V-bottom running 70. It's not a very big pad (or surface area) pushing up on a fairly heavy boat. My thinking was, that until you got the V-bottom out of the water, and moving pretty good on it's transom & rideplate, that it wouldn't be hardly noticable.
I could be wrong here, and would appreciate your thoughts.
Ken F
i installed a closed edge backcut 5 years ago, when i was running a 400, or thereabouts hp 427. i got more lift at lower speeds, which translates into less drag, which translates into quicker acceleration. most of the time, i'm still using the same shoe. if i go with the flat shoe, the hull stays down in the water longer away from the starting line, which is visual with all the spray coming off the sides of the boat.
on a really light boat, say 300+/- bare hull, built with weight minimization in mind, the hull should have plenty of lift without a backcut shoe. some will go to a tapered shoe to keep the biting edge at the desired location while minimizing lift from the shoe. too much lift from a light hull at 120+ can result in unloading from being too loose.

Duane HTP

01-05-2004, 06:47 PM

BP I think this is the time to explain to everyone who don't already know that there is more than one way to back cut a shoe. For instance; our race boat runs a back cut shoe of only .8 degree. That's 8/10th of one degree. On your heaver boat I would bet you have a bigger angle. What degree is your shoe back cut at? Is it two or three degrees? Just courious.

RD Express

01-06-2004, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by Duane HTP
The Snoot is not smaller than the droop on the squeeze down. It is .090" larger. The Snoot has helped the hole shot for all of the boats so far that have been on the clocks.
Unchained, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What is your opinion?
Roger, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks. What's your opinion?
IT WORKS!!! I will have to get my records out but I think it picked me up 4 - 5 mph and some ET. I post on Banderlog back in August all my test runs. If you want I would be glad to post it here also. I will need to get my records out and look them over.
Dan Simmerly, you put the Snoot to the test on the clocks, what's your opinion?
I would appreciate any answers. Thanks!

Duane HTP

01-06-2004, 02:45 PM

Yeah, Roger I would appreciate it if it's not too much trouble.

Jet Hydro

01-06-2004, 03:42 PM

Duane
If I remember right Rick's boat (Flash Back) had one of the first ones? We put that one on my boat and ran 4 mph faster just bolting it on. Then you made me one. We installed it, did a little tuning, ran 4.5mph faster and some where around .500 quicker on the clocks than I ran with the droop.
Hope that`s what you were looking for?

TexasJet

01-06-2004, 06:56 PM

Duane, is there anything that you can do to improve to performance of a Berk 12JE ? It's stock now.

Duane HTP

01-06-2004, 08:09 PM

Yes, those pumps can benifit a lot from performance work. E-Mail me at doblander@hi-techperformance.com or call 316-794-8616. I'll try to help you.

ChetCapoli

01-06-2004, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Squirtcha?
I'm no expert (obviously) but I'm trying to think about this thing analytically. It seems that there is no one thing that does it all. Just setting back a pump and adding a shoe and rideplate probably won't result in the maximum speed that a boat is capable of (this one I know first hand). Just adding a droop (or snoot) for that matter won't be the "big fix". The proper impeller for your max horsepower at a certain rpm won't do it either (tried that one too) although it's a biggie. Rather all these things combined, and properly set up is what will get you to your goals.
Not getting on ya in any way mr squirtcha.....your thinking about it ananytically you say...so why didnt you go about it methodically then?? You spent all that $$ to have the intake removed and set up for a shoe...so why didnt you mess with that to get your speed for pennies more rather than spend even more money again.(not that it didnt work...personally for that much money it should do something) I guess i'm just puzzled why nobody(experts included) told you to take that route(most cost effective) since it seemed you were "on the fence" so to speak before you made your decision on the snoot.
CHET

ChetCapoli

01-06-2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Unchained
I'm sold on the straight snoot. The whole principal of not bending the water flow two extra times is the key. Less restriction.
What speed difference did you notice as opposed to using a droop?
CHET

Squirtcha?

01-06-2004, 09:02 PM

Not getting on ya in any way mr squirtcha
Not a problem Chet. Needn't be so formal either Squirtcha or Dan would work fine.
Who's to say that I'm not going about it methodically? It may not be in the order that you would have done it (or apparently preferred to see me do it in) but it's all still going to happen. Do you think I'll get more speed than I have now by adding the BC shoe? I'm betting I will and we'll find out here before too long.
You're right the snoot does work and pretty darned well. I don't know of too many people (other than yourself of course) that have picked up 6.3 mph without adding horsepower etc.
Heck last year I spent a bunch of money (undisclosed but way more than a snoot) to have the pump setback and machine work for a shoe and rideplate, added the PD droop and only picked up 3.7 mph after trying lots of setup stuff (other than the shoe).
Here's where it gets a little cloudy and where my inexperience with setup stuff is divulged................. When the setback was done a flat shoe was put on. I specifically asked about a BC the day I picked the boat up, and the question was sorta put aside. I'm still not sure just why, but apparently the shop that did the work, does not like using anything other than a flat shoe. I've since gone back and asked if he'd make one for me and although he hasn't refused, he's definitely less than enthused about it. Don't get me wrong, the guy did a real nice job on the setback as well as some other work I was real pleased with. I guess everybody's got their way of doing things and a BC shoe isn't his.
So the quest continues. Since he did the machining on the original piece and it probably won't match up with anybody elses shoes, the original piece will have to be used as a template along with some measurements to make one up for me. He's made it pretty clear that he doesn't want to do this one for me, so I'll have to use someone else.
Anyway, bottom line (in my feeble little mind) is I got some very nice/significant gains with a bolt on piece of equipment, that I'm very pleased with and at the risk of repeating myself........... I have no regrets. Don't rain on my parade, I'm a happy guy!
Oh yes, and I'm not done yet!

RD Express

01-07-2004, 06:37 AM

DROOP vs. SNOOT
Air Density: 92.1 vs. 92.0
Temp:90.0 vs. 89.9
Water: Calm vs. Calm
1/8 ET: 4.538 vs. 4.516
1/8 MPH: 117.98 vs. 119.68
1/4 ET: 8.140 vs.8.053
1/4 MPH: 126.56 vs. 130.30
These runs were in Gadsden, AL. They were back to back runs with no other changes.

Liquid Invader

01-07-2004, 07:52 AM

How is it going out in jet land? Is that change something like changing to a better PROP?
Are you going to run with Ky. this year? They have a pretty good 8.00 class out there. Come on out and practice on us poor prop guys.
Later 383

Cas

01-07-2004, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by ChetCapoli
All i know is, I look for the "best bang for buck" as i am sure most jetters do(except HBJet) and i am just skeptical of something VERY EXPENSIVE that might not work. CHET
Chet,
I'm right there with you on this one. I don't get it when someone asks about what to do and the first thing out of someone's mouth is to get a droop and a ride plate. That's an awful lot of money for something that may not work on a particular boat.
On the flip side, how would a person know it will work or not without trying it?
A couple of years ago, I tried to set up an intake manifold exchange. At the time, I had a couple of different intakes that I was willing to let people try out but it never seemed to take off.
Wouldn't it be cool if that could happen? A parts exchange?
There would have to be a whole lot of trust and honesty, that's for sure.
Since I just picked up another boat, this one with a JG, I'd love to try a couple of different things before I made a purchase but I doubt it can happen. My first purchase will be a diverter, Place or Aggresser, whichever one I can get a better deal on. From there, we'll see but I'm totally leaning towards the Snoot and the main reason is because of Duane.

Unchained

01-07-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by ChetCapoli
What speed difference did you notice as opposed to using a droop?
CHET
I didn't have any top speed numbers to compare to because I'm not one to hold it at WOT until it tops out.
My impression of the straight snoot advantage over the droop was in acceleration which is my main goal anyways.
After installing the straight snoot I ran it at the Ottawa, Ill. 1000' drags in 2002 and ran 7.95 at 104 with the old blower motor in the JJ Cheyenne.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220ottawadrags1.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/220UnchainedLR-med.jpg

TRG

01-07-2004, 03:51 PM

beautiful ride unchained!!

Jet Hydro

01-07-2004, 09:26 PM

Unchained
Look`s like you have one like mine???? Mines one of the old cast ones http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/518/208P1000576-med.JPG

HammerDown

01-07-2004, 09:38 PM

Duane, any plans to make your Snoot as a Cast piece?
And how much longer if any is the snoot vs agressors droop.

Unchained

01-08-2004, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by Jet Hydro
[B]Unchained
Look`s like you have one like mine???? Mines one of the old cast ones]
I have one of the AT straight snoots with a hydraulic diverter.
It looks just like the one in your picture but I think you have the race nozzle.

Jet Hydro

01-08-2004, 11:06 AM

yea, I`v got a race nozzle. The one in the pic is a little different than the one I have now. That nozzle took a lot of work to produce so Duane made a different one that was not so complex. He wanted me to try one of the new snoot`s at Waco this year but I was having to much trouble keeping the boat in the water to change the hole set-up at once. I`m sure that some time this year I`ll try one of the new one`s but we have to find a place to race because CSDBA went tit`s up on us last year :(

RD Express

01-08-2004, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Liquid Invader
How is it going out in jet land? Is that change something like changing to a better PROP?
Are you going to run with Ky. this year? They have a pretty good 8.00 class out there. Come on out and practice on us poor prop guys.
Later 383
I'm not sure how to compare it to a prop. I think it would be more like changing the location of the v drive box. I would like to make it to one of the KDBA races. But it never seem to work out.

Jet Hydro

01-08-2004, 04:58 PM

Roger
I would say it`s more like changing the location of the prop? Wouldn't you?

Duane HTP

01-08-2004, 06:28 PM

Duane, any plans to make your Snoot as a Cast piece?
I just got off of the phone with Dave Jones of Aggressor a while ago. That's exactly what we've been talking about. Trying to decide if the number of sales would warrant the building of new tooling. Some years back Dave produced a similar pump extension. He says his tooling could be improved to the current design that I have made without too much trouble. We talked about a Hi-Tech/Aggressor Snoot. They would probably sell for somewhere in the neighborhood of $275.00 to $325.00. What do you think guys??????? Shall we do it????????
My short SNOOT is a little longer than the Aggressor Droop, and the long one is 2" longer yet.

1tricky1

01-08-2004, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Duane HTP
What do you think guys??????? Shall we do it????????
You have my vote. I recently purchased a bowl and nozzle adaptor from you and probably would have stepped up to the price range of the cast snoot. The billet one is NICE! but I just couldn't fit $500 into the budget.

01-09-2004, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Duane HTP
BP I think this is the time to explain to everyone who don't already know that there is more than one way to back cut a shoe. For instance; our race boat runs a back cut shoe of only .8 degree. That's 8/10th of one degree. On your heaver boat I would bet you have a bigger angle. What degree is your shoe back cut at? Is it two or three degrees? Just courious.
duane, i started the '02 season with the 2 degree b/c, then after the second race went with a 3 degree. going into '03, i went back with the 2 degree. at the may race, during eliminations, 2300 d/a, i ran a 9.92 at 105.17 (mid track 5.54) breaking out. so, a few hours later, just for grins, i stuck the old 3 degree in it to see what would happen on a safety pass.
with 2525' d/a, and no head wind, the boat ran 9.83 at 105.4 (mid track 5.40). this is kind of misleading because i ran over some rollers about 200' from the lights, the boat got extremely loose, and i backed off (after all, it was a safety pass). the video shows the boat cleaning up much sooner than it did the pass before. the video also shows how loose the thing got toward the end (the terry fox even commented on it).
In october, 2 degree b/c shoe, d/a 2571', i ran into a headwind again and broke out with a 9.93. mid track was 5.50. other midtracks that weekend were 5.53, 5.55.
in november, i ran the flat shoe, d/a 1300', 10.13. mid track was 5.67. the differences in videos clearly indicate the boat was much further down in the water than with the 2 degree, and no comparison to the 3 degree, over the first 150' after the starting line.
the bottom line is the boat cleans up much quicker with the b/c than it does with the flat. less drag = quicker.

Jet Hydro

01-09-2004, 06:36 PM

bp
NJBA give you numbers when your on a safety pass?
NDBA say`s that if you need a safety pass then it`s not for numbers, it`s for safety..... (because your having problems and your not safe to run side by side with other`s.) there for they dont give us any numbers when we take a safety pass.

screamdreambrad

01-09-2004, 11:54 PM

01-10-2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Jet Hydro
bp
NJBA give you numbers when your on a safety pass?
NDBA say`s that if you need a safety pass then it`s not for numbers, it`s for safety..... (because your having problems and your not safe to run side by side with other`s.) there for they dont give us any numbers when we take a safety pass.
steve, there's a charge for safety passes (i forget what it is, 20 or somethin'), so the concept is, if you're paying for it, you get a timeslip. they usually offer timespace for safety passes as available. brad mentioned the light check passes; people volunteer for those, but there is no charge.

Squirtcha?

01-10-2004, 02:01 PM

Hey! There's my chance to run her through the traps. I can afford $20.
O.k. don't tell me..................you still have to pay all the other dough up front first, right?

01-11-2004, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Squirtcha?
Hey! There's my chance to run her through the traps. I can afford $20.
O.k. don't tell me..................you still have to pay all the other dough up front first, right?
yaknow dan, this is something you've been told about 25000 times before, but once again; you can run river racer at ming for 75.00, which will get you a minimum 4 passes.

Squirtcha?

01-11-2004, 10:49 AM

Joke bp. Iwasjuskidding.
I do wish all they'd start some races here in Arizona.

TexasJet

01-12-2004, 05:13 AM

I have been Talking to Duane about working on my boat. I got permission from Wifey to spend the money so I am going to set it up with him. Omega Bubble Jet and I will haul my boat up there, and Duane says he can do the work in a couple of days. He runs the boat at a local lake first to get a base line. Then does the work. Then he runs the boat a few more times to fine tune the work. Last summer my boat ran 68 on GPS. We will see what Duane can do for me.http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/986BELTON0006.jpg This is what the back of the boat looks like now, minus the dog.