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Outnumbered
01-29-2004, 01:50 AM
This new system from Banks sounds pretty impressive. If they don't come out with the Edge Attitude system for the Cummins pretty soon I may have to go pick one up. Read all the details, it sounds pretty good. Any opinions? Banks has been around for a long time and I have not heard much negative stuff about them. +126hp/+290lb-ft torgue for $799--I like it :)
http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_SixGun_Cummins.cfmhttp://www.bankspower.com/product_images/SD26_SixGun.jpg

CA Stu
01-29-2004, 12:16 PM
That link won't work for me.. I found the Duramax page, though...
Thanks
CA Stu

bigq
01-29-2004, 02:11 PM
Funny i just got a call from them this morning. Wanted to tell me about the Six Gun and the speed loader. I guess the speed loader has a EGT sensor so if it gets to hot it will start cutting fuel. I asked the guy if it was using pulse width adjustment and he said yes. I was under the assumption that it was aonly timing and pressure, but he said it uses all three. Don't know how true this is. Gave me a price with both 6 gun, speed loader and new exhuast for $2020.00 :eek: I think I want a pressure/Timing boax then stack a pulse width box, which I assume is what the juice is going to be. I heard if you use to high a setting on the pressure box it could be bad for some springs in the injection.Kieth can answer more of that.
He said I also have a cat and the piping would keep that. i was under the assumption Dodge did not use a cat.
I will be waiting for the Edge products, i want to use the Attitude for the read outs, just don't want the standard guages in the cab, hopefully it will work this way.

Outnumbered
01-29-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
That link won't work for me.. I found the Duramax page, though...
Thanks
CA Stu
Works for me. Try it again.
Sounds like they thought of everything with regards to protecting the truck. I talked to Banks today. They said you can run it WITHOUT gauges and with stock exhaust because the system will not allow the EGT or other vitals to get too high. You will not see full hp/torque gains without aftermarket intake and exhast though. It is still much better than stock even without intake/exhaust. Also, if the unit fails it has a built-in by-pass which sets it back to stock so it really seems fail safe. They do recommend gauges so you can tell if the system is getting to the the point were it needs to de-fuel to protect from high EGTs etc.
Here it is:
**************************************************
White Paper — Cummins Common Rail ISB Six-Gun Diesel Tuner
By Peter Treydte
01.21.04
Gale Banks Engineering Cummins Common Rail Product Evaluation
There is no doubt that Cummins has established itself as the benchmark of durability in the diesel pickup truck marketplace. Since 1989, the 5.9L power plant, commonly referred to as the “B” engine, has been the workhorse that Dodge has used to establish a foothold among diesel enthusiasts. The engine has remained basically the same over those years, with changes to the cylinder head and the fuel injection system being the most significant updates. Today, the fuel injection system is fully electronically managed, providing the greatest level of control over fuel injection dynamics to date.
MORE POWER
When the task becomes how to achieve more power, the equation is simple: power is increased by delivering more diesel fuel to each cylinder during the power stroke, and achieving a complete burn to harness the full measure of power potential in the fuel. Fuel delivery may be enhanced in one or more of three methods: increase the fuel delivered by lengthening the injection pulse; increase the pressure of the fuel, thereby increasing the amount delivered; or change the timing of the pulse, effectively improving the point of peak pressure in the cylinder.
While the problem statement is simple, the methodology is somewhat complex. This is due in part to the advanced nature of the engine electronics. As technology improves, certain checks and balances are built into the vehicle’s electronic systems, ensuring that the multitude of sensors and reacting components are fully functional. That means that the addition of “foreign” electronics intended to retune the engine may throw up warning flags, commonly referred to as trouble codes. At best, this is a nuisance, and at worst it can cause the engine to run in a detuned, “limp-home” mode. Thus the problem statement for development of any electronic fuel enhancement device must include an interface that does not cause a failure mode.
FUEL TUNING
There are two aspects of fuel tuning that are worth focusing on with the Cummins ISB common rail engine. The first is fuel pressure. Because a common rail system by nature feeds fuel pressure to all the injectors through the same system, fuel pressure can be raised throughout the system by recalibrating the pressure pump’s output. But there is a limitation. Seals and other components in the system are designed to handle up to about 27,000 PSI, yet the system can be altered to produce pressures higher than that. Banks engineers determined that under most operating conditions, pressures should not exceed 24,500 PSI.
Injection timing is another key tuning parameter that can yield tremendous gains in power. In order to recalibrate timing, the electronics must be able to intercept vital engine timing signals from the crankshaft and the camshaft, and tune fuel injection timing based on those signals. Once again, certain limitations apply and must not be exceeded in order to safeguard the engine from harmful timing parameters.
DRIVETRAIN SAFEGUARDING
Anyone who is familiar at all with Dodge Cummins pickups knows that the potential weak link in the chain is the automatic transmission. The 47RE, and its replacement, the 48RE, have grown from a design that was simply never intended to handle the extreme amount of torque that the Cummins engine is capable of delivering. If too much torque is applied under certain high load conditions, it is possible to cause the clutches in either the torque converter or the transmission itself to slip. When this happens, power is not being transferred from the engine to the rear wheels, no matter how much the engine might be producing. Prudent engineering incorporates a method to protect the transmission from sustaining damage due to added power.
EVALUATING THE MASSES
A test cycle at Banks is only complete when it includes testing of competitive product. Although the ISB common rail is fairly new to the market, there are always companies that rush their product into the game—sometimes with poor results. The area of greatest concern that Banks engineers identified was the claim by many manufactures to have the aspect of injection timing control dealt with. Research revealed that while many companies claimed to control injection timing, some experienced problems with the feature resulting in trouble codes and limp-home conditions, forcing them to pull their product from the market. Others simply claimed they had the feature, but clearly did not. This was obvious based on the fact that no interface with onboard camshaft and/or crankshaft signals existed in their product.
In some cases, a device may have offered extreme levels of power, but it was clear that no consideration was given to fuel pressure limitations. Power was achieved by applying massive amounts of fuel pressure.
It is also quite clear that most manufacturers give no consideration to the durability of the engine or the transmission. Exhaust gas temperature is a limiting factor for any diesel engine. Rampant overfueling of a diesel can result in damage to the internal components. Transmission slippage was also entirely ignored by all products available.
THE CREAM OF THE CROP
Having established a solid problem statement, and further clarifying the task at hand with competitive evaluation, the Gale Banks Engineering staff set about designing a device to create a new standard. The result is the Banks Six-Gun Diesel Tuner, the most advanced fuel enhancement product available for the Dodge Cummins common rail. They then went one step further by developing a competition-only optional enhancement, the Speed-Loader. Because the durability of the engine and transmission is a prime consideration, the Banks engineers developed a suite of features that adjust the fuel rate of the engine according to prevailing conditions. Dubbed AutoRate, these features constantly monitor various conditions and provide ActiveSafety to help safeguard the drivetrain. Here is a list of features and benefits:
Horsepower - The Banks Six-Gun offers up to 105 additional horsepower at the rear wheels, and the addition of the Speed-Loader increases output to 126 hp over stock.
Torque - Six-Gun increases torque output at the rear wheels by 258 lb-ft, with the bulk of the gains in the very useful lower RPM register. The Speed-Loader increases rear wheel torque to 290 lb-ft over stock.
Adjustable On-The-Fly - Banks Six-Gun offers 6 distinct power levels, from no added power, to maximum available output. A dash-mounted rotary knob allows full access to all levels while driving for ultimate versatility.
Stacked for Power - The Six-Gun increases fuel pressure, within the determined capability of the fuel system. At every level except Level 6 with the Speed-Loader option, fuel pressure is kept below 24,500 PSI. Level 6 with the Speed-Loader keeps fuel pressure just below 27,000 PSI, the maximum allowable pressure for the system. Timing is also recalibrated for optimum power output. Some competitive products only offer one or the other of the two features mentioned. Therefore, some consumers find it necessary to purchase multiple devices and “stack” them to achieve their desired power output. The Banks Six-Gun is already stacked for power in a single device, eliminating the need for the added expense of multiple units.
Temperature Limiting Control - Exhaust gas temperature is the most vital statistic known for common usage of a diesel engine. Speed-Loader adds fuel-limiting control based on temperature measurement. (Note: For maximum performance, Banks always recommends improvements to airflow when enhancing fuel delivery.)
Transmission Slip Monitoring - In order to monitor slip in the 47RE and 48RE transmissions, it is necessary to have electronics that can “learn” the gear ratios of the vehicle. The Six-Gun goes through an initial learning mode to calibrate itself to the vehicle, so that slip can be detected either in the torque converter clutch or in the transmission clutches. Generally speaking, 5% slippage is considered to be the maximum allowable limit. Once the Six-gun detects 3% slippage, power is reduced to guard against damage from slippage.
Torque Converter Clutch Engagement - The point in time when the torque converter is most susceptible to damage is during its initial engagement of the clutch. If excessive power is being applied while the clutch is engaging, slippage will occur. By sensing the engagement signal of the clutch, the Six-Gun can momentarily reduce power until the clutch is fully engaged, and then reapply power.
FMEA Design - The Gale Banks Engineering staff utilizes the latest in electronic technology to ensure that the Six-Gun electronics will in no way impact the durability or function of the onboard vehicle electronics. In addition, the Six-Gun constantly monitors its own inputs and outputs to ensure proper function.
ADDED VALUE
The result of Banks’ diligence and attention to detail is added value. Banks puts the extra effort into identifying all aspects of the engine’s capabilities and limits to give the consumer a feeling of confidence when using the product. The Six-Gun Diesel Tuner is packed with features that no competitor can duplicate at the same price. The Six-Gun with Speed-Loader offers more horsepower and torque at the rear wheels than is claimed by most competitors, often at a lower price and always with more built-in safety.

Outnumbered
01-29-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by bigq
Funny i just got a call from them this morning. Wanted to tell me about the Six Gun and the speed loader. I guess the speed loader has a EGT sensor so if it gets to hot it will start cutting fuel. I asked the guy if it was using pulse width adjustment and he said yes. I was under the assumption that it was aonly timing and pressure, but he said it uses all three. Don't know how true this is. Gave me a price with both 6 gun, speed loader and new exhuast for $2020.00 :eek: I think I want a pressure/Timing boax then stack a pulse width box, which I assume is what the juice is going to be. I heard if you use to high a setting on the pressure box it could be bad for some springs in the injection.Kieth can answer more of that.
He said I also have a cat and the piping would keep that. i was under the assumption Dodge did not use a cat.
I will be waiting for the Edge products, i want to use the Attitude for the read outs, just don't want the standard guages in the cab, hopefully it will work this way.
The guy I talked to said around $2,100 OTD is for a 6-gun, Speed Loader, monster 4" exhaust, k&n drop-in, and waste gate actuator installed with warranty in Azusa. Take the exhaust, K&n, and waste gate out and you are looking at $1,033 installed out the door OTD--$799 + tax and install.
OL

bigq
01-29-2004, 03:13 PM
whats the wastegate actuator do?

Outnumbered
01-29-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by bigq
whats the wastegate actuator do?
That's what I asked too. Apparently it holds boost in the system longer than stock to increase the powerband. Not sure I understood but that is what I gathered.
OL

bigq
01-29-2004, 03:30 PM
The torque is amazing, 290 lb-ft + stock is like , what almost 750 for the ca motor, got to love that.:D

cheech
01-29-2004, 06:44 PM
there wastgate will stay closed longer alowing the turbo to produce more boost and keep the wastegate from bleeding off pressure (boost)

Mod VP
01-30-2004, 07:29 AM
My main question with all of these systems is how long you can actaully use the power without melting your motor.Will I be able to use them pulling Chiraco Summit,or would I have to back out of the power half way up the grade....:confused:

Outnumbered
01-30-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Mod VP
My main question with all of these systems is how long you can actaully use the power without melting your motor.Will I be able to use them pulling Chiraco Summit,or would I have to back out of the power half way up the grade....:confused:
Read the article. It should answer your question.
OL

STV_Keith
01-30-2004, 09:09 AM
You need a pyrometer gauge to measure the Exhaust Gas Temperature. This reading tells you where you are heat wise...and that's the key to a turbo diesel.
Unlike gas vehicles with turbos, the extra boost/airflow in a diesel cools the exhaust gas temps down.

Outnumbered
01-30-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by STV_Keith
You need a pyrometer gauge to measure the Exhaust Gas Temperature. This reading tells you where you are heat wise...and that's the key to a turbo diesel.
Unlike gas vehicles with turbos, the extra boost/airflow in a diesel cools the exhaust gas temps down.
Yes, but the Banks 6-gun--like the Edge Attitude for D-max--will de-fuel the motor before EGTs get too high. You gotta read the article it explains it all in detail.
STV, what is taking Edge so long to get the Dodge Attitude system out???
OL

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by bigq
whats the wastegate actuator do?
Allows the wastegate to open to vent excess boost out of your intake into the atmosphere.
If you're ever woodin' the pedal and you let off suddenly, you hear a "BOOSH!" (technical term) and that's your wastegate opening.
A real easy way to get more power out of any turbo'ed engine is to drill a hole in the wastegate actuator tube. Matter of fact, the Stinger Plus kit I got from Banks (I did my own install, it's freakin' simple) has a drill bit in it to drill into the wastegate actuator tube, and a tap to tap the end of the tube out, and a restrictor jet to screw into the end of the tube.
This holds the wastegate closed longer and forces more boost into your motor.
If you go ape shit and make your wastegate actuator tube look like Swiss cheese, you'll blow up your motor, but you'll be one boost making MoFo in the meantime!!
Cheers
CA Stu
PS If anyone gets the kit and needs a super high dollar drill bit and tap to tap and drill out the exhaust manifold for the pyrometer, ping me and I'll be glad to help out. I bought the bit and tap and used them for this one job, they're gathering dust in my toolbox now :(

Outnumbered
01-30-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by CA Stu
Allows the wastegate to open to vent excess boost out of your intake into the atmosphere.
If you're ever woodin' the pedal and you let off suddenly, you hear a "BOOSH!" (technical term) and that's your wastegate opening.
A real easy way to get more power out of any turbo'ed engine is to drill a hole in the wastegate actuator tube. Matter of fact, the Stinger Plus kit I got from Banks (I did my own install, it's freakin' simple) has a drill bit in it to drill into the wastegate actuator tube, and a tap to tap the end of the tube out, and a restrictor jet to screw into the end of the tube.
This holds the wastegate closed longer and forces more boost into your motor.
If you go ape shit and make your wastegate actuator tube look like Swiss cheese, you'll blow up your motor, but you'll be one boost making MoFo in the meantime!!
Cheers
CA Stu
PS If anyone gets the kit and needs a super high dollar drill bit and tap to tap and drill out the exhaust manifold for the pyrometer, ping me and I'll be glad to help out. I bought the bit and tap and used them for this one job, they're gathering dust in my toolbox now :(
I was thinking of doing a self-install but was worried about getting metal shavings in the turbo from the sensor hole. How do you keep the metal shaving out of the system?
OL

CA Stu
01-30-2004, 03:56 PM
Has a shop vac running while I was drilling, and my turbo was sitting on my work bench so I could drill out the actuator tube.
The kit comes with a new turbo gasket, but mine didn't need it. The original looked fine.
I bolted on the Monster Exhaust, yanked the turbo, modded the w.a. tube(drilled the middle and tapped the end), drilled and tapped the exhaust manifold for the pyrometer, and did all the wiring all in about half a day.
The instructions in the kit are well written and very comprehensive.
Take your time, it's really simple. If you're a wrench turnin' type, I'd say it's easier than doing a head gasket, harder than doing a brake job....;)
CA Stu

FastTimmy
02-04-2004, 08:09 AM
I don't know if it is disclosed but the banks six gun also mearures trany slip it will also pull fuel if it slips, this is in addition to the EGT limit. Also I can say that wile expensive banks will go to bat for you with any dealer that tries to void your warranty. they have a crew of four people (that was in 2002) that there only job was to deal with factory warranty issues. they take it very serious when a dealer ties to void a waranty..
Timmy

STV_Keith
02-04-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by FastTimmy
Also I can say that wile expensive banks will go to bat for you with any dealer that tries to void your warranty. they have a crew of four people (that was in 2002) that there only job was to deal with factory warranty issues. they take it very serious when a dealer ties to void a waranty..
Timmy
I wouldn't count on that. There are MANY documented cases where Banks did nothing when the dealer decided not to help the customer. Here is one such horror story: http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71199
Anything you do to add power that they can detect WILL void your warranty. Now, if a part or parts can be taken off and not leave signs behind that they were there...you're find. On these 03-04 Dodge Rams, anything over 350rwhp will require the use of a larger than stock turbo, which is pretty obvious.

Outnumbered
02-04-2004, 10:46 AM
Keith, any word on the Edge Attitude for the CTD? I really want that system but I am wondering if it will EVER be out.
Thanks,
OL

STV_Keith
02-04-2004, 11:17 AM
We work very closely with Edge and have not received a prototype yet. Once we get one, it will likely still be over a month until they hit the streets.