Superchiller--Does it make power or what?

[cyclone]

this applies to all innercoolers..
If you take a blown motor and do nothing but add an innercooler to it what happens? does the boost level fall because of the restriction before the intake? If so does the motor make more power if you change nothing else or do you have to add more boost to make more power?
Is the benefit of an innercooler simply allowing you to add more boost because the incoming air is colder and therefore less prone to detonation?
If this is true, how far do you know how to go with the boost. Do you crank it up until you hopefully sense detonation occuring, then add an innercooler and see if it stops detonating? I'm confused here.

[78Eliminator]

You must be bored again. If this question is not "bait" then I'll be a monkey's uncle....

[cyclone]

no i'm being serious. i bought one am wondering what the real benefit of it is. My first blower motor so i've got some questions ya know?:)

[78Eliminator]

If you are baiting me I am gunna be pissed.
When a blower compresses the air, it also heats the air up. There is a point where you make "too much" boost and the efficiency of the blower starts to be negative. For instance, you are making 7 lbs of boost and gaining 200 hp at a certain rpm. Well, if you change a pulley and make 10 lbs, the charge becomes more hot and the charge mixture becomes less dense so now the blower is only making 160 hp.
An intercooler solves this by cooling the charge. It is a way to make your blower more efficient by cooling the charge. This way you can turn up the boost and gain horsepower rather than lose it due to heat.
Get it?
You see, nitrous oxide and blowers do the same thing. They give you a more dense charge. A blower accomplishes this by compressing the air, and nitrous does it by cooling it. BUT, with a blower, there is a point where the compression of the air is meaningless because of high temperature and thus less burnable volume.

[cyclone]

c'mon man i'm not baiting you or anyone.
I understand that blower heats the air its forcing into the motor and that the power gains are larger at 3psi than say 20psi due to the air being colder. So basically what you're saying is that an innercooler will make the larger amounts of boost more efficient than they would normally be?
like without the innercooler 20 psi might only make a 200hp increase but with an innercooler that same 20psi will make 250hp? that makes sense.
I wonder though if the peak boost will drop because of the restriction the innercooler adds and you'd have to change pulleys to get back to the original amount of boost you had before adding the innercooler? then does the efficiency decrease because you had to spin the blower faster to get back to the original boost level?

[78Eliminator]

No way. The intercooler is not a restriction because it is a compressed environment. Another way to be more efficient at higher boosts is to have a larger blower......

[cyclone]

oh i thought it would be a restriction because of the element that the air is being forced through.

[78Eliminator]

I don't think it will make a difference. A test of this would be interesting. Too bad we all don't have deep pockets or we could dyno with the and without the intercooler on (without water running through it) just to see what happens.

[Snowboat]

The intercooler will reduce the amount of boost, if the rest of the setup is left the same. For example, 6-71 with two 750's, 10% over, 12 psi boost. Add a Blower Shop intercooler and the boost drops to 9 psi. You lose at least two pounds, but the engine is four polished inches taller.

[Hotcrusader76]

The cooler the air the more dense it becomes therefore allowing more of it to be crammed into the cylinder (chemical dynamics). More of it means more O2 get's in there which allows more fuel to be burned in turn...
Turn up the boost ~ turn up the fuel= power
and yes in broad terms 78 covered it as well.

[Blown 472]

I have wondered about this as well, I see it as a restriction not to mention if you are drawing thru carbs how does it effect fuel distribution?? will the fuel stick to the cooling eliment or shear out of the flow, roots blowers by nature will pack more air to the rear of the motor thus making the back two cylinders on each side run richer, now put this radator in there what is the effect on it?

[Blown 472]

Originally posted by Blown 472
I have wondered about this as well, I see it as a restriction not to mention if you are drawing thru carbs how does it effect fuel distribution?? will the fuel stick to the cooling eliment or shear out of the flow, roots blowers by nature will pack more air to the rear of the motor thus making the back two cylinders on each side run richer, now put this radator in there what is the effect on it?
Hows bout a way to control the inlet air temp, say if you could keep it at a constant 60 degrees with no impedece to flow.

[Infomaniac]

You will have to consider air density rather than air pressure.
The intercooler allows more boost and also the big advantage comes from the fact that a roots blower will slowly increae it's discharge temp. If you jet the thing from doing a few short dyno pulls and call it good. Running down the lake for a while and the temp slowly increasing and then make a pass, it might detonate on you.
Where it would not have if it had been intercooled. If you cruise under boost I would intercool it for sure.

[revndave]

Hey Mike
When I had my blower motor I ran a chiller.11lbs. on pump gas.I ran it from Avi down to sandbar with no problems.Wish I still had it.

[Kindsvater Flat]

To me an intercooler would be unrestrictive like a catalytic converter unless it over heated and melted.
Correct?

[Race Bob]

Anything that lowers inlet temps will be a help.On a naturally aspirated motor 10 degrees is worth about 1 percent power.On a blower motor 100 degrees worth 10 percent ?I do know a Cool and Dense 20 lb. is a lot more efficient than 20 lb of Superheated air and boiling fuel.

[superdave013]

Mike, my superchiller had about one pound of differential pressure dropped across the core. That is with 25psi of static pressure in the intake.
When you dyno your engine it would be a good test to run it with no water in the cooler. And then make a few more pulls with different amounts of water flows so see what the gains are.
Did you get your pullies and belt figured out?

[78Eliminator]

See, you learn something new every day if you listen. I would have NEVER thought that undrer pressure, you could lose boost due to a little retriction. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[HEAVYBOAT]

Originally posted by superdave013
Mike, my superchiller had about one pound of differential pressure dropped across the core. That is with 25psi of static pressure in the intake.
When you dyno your engine it would be a good test to run it with no water in the cooler. And then make a few more pulls with different amounts of water flows so see what the gains are.
Did you get your pullies and belt figured out?
Hey superdave.
By mistake last yr on the dyno I forgot to turn the tap back on for the intercooler. I had just finished a pull and did a quick jet change. Time to crank her up and bam, something like 35 hp less then the last pull. :confused: :confused: I was freaking out at this slug, wondering if maybe INFO had something to do with it but after ten minutes or so scratching my head…it all made sense. Hot water sitting stagnant in the intercooler. Starting from the heat soak from the last pull then more heat building up from the pull.
What would the temp changes be in this senario? 35 hp should mean approx 25 degrees hotter intake temps right? Bet the water was 100 degrees!!
Actually Ive been told up to 3 to 4 pds less boost with an intercooler.. and I believe it. If I understand it correctly its not only from the restriction of the cores, its also from pressure drop from having the cooler air. Info posted a great link to a turbo website on another thread and it explains it in great detail. If only if we could have our intercoolers remotely mounted so they didn’t heat up from being slammed up against our hot motors.
R.

[blownrat]

hi everyone this is why iam looking into the mixing of 50% water 50% methenol injected to come on at say 5 lbs boost it will cool the air when needed but cant find anyone that has used it

[Infomaniac]

blownrat - just go for it man.
I taught water injection to aviation students. The aircraft piston (reciprocating) engines used it as well as turbine engines.
The methanol in those systems was mixed in to keep it from freezing and was only about 10%
It will work for you.
HEAVYBOAT - Are you using engine water in your intercooler? How is it plumbed?

[Kindsvater Flat]

So if you're running 10 lbs boost without an IC and then install one, you should spin it faster to make up the difference?

[Snowboat]

If everything is tuned correctly, you can turn up the boost back to where it was originally. You will have more power than before because there is more air, because its cooler. I have a Blower Shop intercooler. In retrospect, its probably a waste in a flat that doesn't go for extended periods of time, flat out. I got it because it was more polished chit and to help a 6-71 stay a little cooler. Without a timed course, I can't tell any difference in speed. They're all a handfull at speed anyway, aren't they?

[Hotcrusader76]

Well @5 lbs. or @25 lbs.....it still looks bitchen to have an IC 8/71 over a NON-IC 8/71
Mike....build it and they will come:D

[superdave013]

Heavyboat,
We noticed that heatsink effect too. When sitting at the holding rope waiting for your run the core would heat up big time. Boat would not leave as hard. We put in a little RV pump in to just move water through the core when sitting at the light.
When we first put the pump in we warmed the engine and thrn let it sit for a bit. Then we flipped on the pump and the first slug of water would come out HOT!

[gnarley]

Originally posted by Infomaniac
blownrat - just go for it man.
I taught water injection to aviation students. The aircraft piston (reciprocating) engines used it as well as turbine engines.
The methanol in those systems was mixed in to keep it from freezing and was only about 10%
It will work for you.
Info, glad to hear you know something about water injection. I have heard about it for years & now have a need to use it also, as I have no room for an IC. How much benefit can someone expect from water injection? Do you have any ideas why so many people dis water injection, such as below? Can you comment on any of these statements?
Originally posted by Havasu47
Water injection was popular 20 years ago to cool the cylinder temperatures and help with pre ignition (detonation). The introduction of water into the cylinder is NOT a good idea. Even though it is a much smaller amount, everyone here has heard the word "reversion". Death to the exhaust valves among other problems.
Water injection is a band aid for a tuning or combination problem.

[Blown 472]

I would think that it would give a denser charge and make more power?? no?
What is the thermal expansion rate of water compaired to gas?

[Infomaniac]

Yea the water will cool the charge.
Anytime a liquid is turned into a vapor it will absorb some heat in the process. Same as carb ice. When the gas vaporizes it can freeze any available moisture in the air.
It does not spray directly on the exhaust valve so it is not a problem.
I have not used it on anything other than an aircraft engine but it will work.

[HEAVYBOAT]

Originally posted by Infomaniac
blownrat
HEAVYBOAT - Are you using engine water in your intercooler? How is it plumbed?
A 12 volt RV pumps runs water through 1/2 lines back to my trunk where a 5 gallon cell sits full of ice.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/1424track_blower_shot.jpg
But by the time I get back to the pits after a run, its warm to hot.
Why do you have some ideas for me to keep my intercooler water temps down?
ps My car will NOT float :D

[HEAVYBOAT]

Originally posted by cyclone
I wonder though if the peak boost will drop because of the restriction the innercooler adds and you'd have to change pulleys to get back to the original amount of boost you had before adding the innercooler? then does the efficiency decrease because you had to spin the blower faster to get back to the original boost level?
Your right cyclone,hammer nail head :D
Corky bell explains it like this,
The change in density of the intake charge can be measured relative to the tempature change brought about by the intercooler.For example suppose a supercharger has a compressor discharge tempature of 200F above atmos temp,that is about 750 absolute on a 90f day(zero degrees F is about 460 degrees absolute,add 90 to get 550 absolute,200 degrees above that is 750 absolute. We need to know the temp above ambiant,because the intercooler will not remove any of the ambient temp,being at that temp itself) If we insert a 65% efficent intercooler into the system,we would remove .65*200 degrees F=130 deg from the system,leaving a gain of just 70 degrees rather then 200 degrees,or a absolute of 550+70=620. The density changecan then be determined using the desity ratio formula.
550+ 200
------------ = 1.21
550+ 70
Therefore,this intercooler will yeild a gain of about 21%. This means that 21% more air molecules will be in the combustion chamber then otherwise would have been.All other things remaining equal,one would expect a simular gain in power,or so it appears at first glance.
Things can go wrong. Suppose the intercooler removes adequate heat but offers substantial restriction to airflow? The corresponding power loss due to boost pressure loss can be estimated by calculating the ratio of absolute pressure with the intercooler to the without the intercooler and subtracting that from 100%.
EXAMPLE
If 5 psi out of 10 are lost due to intercooler drag.
flow loss = pressure with intercooler
-------------------------------
pressure without intercooler
Flow loss= 14.7 psi + 5 psi
------------------- = 0.20= 20%
14.7 psi +10 psi
Here flow loss through the intercooler,which correlates with power loss, amounts to 20%, and absolute pressure in the intake is 20% lower. Suppose the cooler air is 20%denser, NO GAIN,NO LOSS The intercooler is DEAD weight. In such case it would necassary to turn CYCLONES supercharger fast enough to get the lost 5psi back. BUT (as cyclone touched on earlier) this is not quite good enough either. If we force the the supercharger to make more boost, more power goes out the belt drive.
There you go, but I like our short version a lot better...
Just spin that thing quicker!@! :D :D

[Infomaniac]

Originally posted by HEAVYBOAT
A 12 volt RV pumps runs water through 1/2 lines back to my trunk where a 5 gallon cell sits full of ice.
But by the time I get back to the pits after a run, its warm to hot.
Why do you have some ideas for me to keep my intercooler water temps down?
ps My car will NOT float :D
Dry ice or liquid nitrogen would be the only improvements. And #10 lines if you use a better cold source. Do not turn on the pump until you stage also.

[gnarley]

Originally posted by Infomaniac
Yea the water will cool the charge.
Anytime a liquid is turned into a vapor it will absorb some heat in the process. Same as carb ice. When the gas vaporizes it can freeze any available moisture in the air.
It does not spray directly on the exhaust valve so it is not a problem.
I have not used it on anything other than an aircraft engine but it will work.
So Info are there any pro's or con's to water injection?
Will it make, or aid in making some additional HP by lowering the charge temp or by being able to use lower octane fuels like 91 without fear of detonation, hence the possibility of bumping the total timing by 1 or 2 degree's? I run 91 now at 31 degrees total but would like to bump it safely to 33 if the water could help. And if water cools the charge it should be denser, right? So if it is a denser charge then it should also increase the power as well I would assume?
IS there anyone who can answer this? It seems like there is no one who really knows water injection or is willing to clearly state implications of its use, good or bad but it has been used for more than 60 years in many different applications so I think there must be some clear benefits.

[eliminatya]

heavyboat, what efficiency would a richard lee cooler be, they say they can drop the intake temp frm 260 down to 108 degrees F.

[HEAVYBOAT]

Very close to the example above.. I get 60%
23% more air molecules minus the restriction of airflow
And another way to look at it if we subscribed to the…
10 degrees lower intake temps= 1% more power theory..
That particular example should make 15% more power with that intercooler.
Does that sound right :confused:
This year I tapped in a temp probe in my intake manifold, and I plan on logging a few scenarios to test these theories on the dyno. I'll let you know the findings.
Rick

[058]

Heavyboat, wouldn't a 5lb loss in boost pressure due to a more denser charge yeild more power than a "no gain" even with the normal restriction of the intercooler as you stated or did I misunderstand your post? That is assuming all other factors remain the same. I'm not real familiar with intercooled/blower applications, I run intercooler/turbochargers and there is an efficency difference between the 2. It would seem to me that a cold 10lbs of boost would make more power that a hot 15lbs or more by air density, less detonation, less power absorbtion from the blower/drive, ect. Would you mind posting some details on the blown BBF pictured, looks like a very interesting combination.

[Robbie Racer]

Great topic. Wouldn't water injection be similar to running your motor in high humidity air conditions? If so, doesn't that lower the power output level? My motor seems to run better in low humidity air (even at the same outside air temperature) than in high humidity air.

[Infomaniac]

That is a good question.
Actually engines make less power in high humidity days due to more water molecules present leaving less room for oxygen molecules. Similar to air density at different altitudes and air temperatures.
If you could actually do this: capture a cubic inch of air and count the molecules on a no humidity day and a high humidity day.
Also at seal level and at a few thousand feet. On a cold day and on a hot day. Each will have different numbers of oxygen molecules.
It is amazing how much "air" is required to get the right amount of oxygen to mix with the fuel. 78% of air is nitrogen. Oxygen is what burns, the nitrogen expands and also provides some degree of cooling effect.
The point of this thread being intercooling. Cooling the air will provide more oxygen molecules in every cubic inch of air.
That is the point to supercharging. Compressing air to get more oxygen into each cubic inch of air.
Nitrous is the extreme of this. Nitrous is an extreme concentration of oxygen. No large percentage of nitrogen involved. Serious combustion temps are the result.
To answer the post above: The water in water injection is not taking the place of oxygen molecules. They are in addition to them. So no power is lost as in a humid day.
Did I type all of this?

[Robbie Racer]

Info, thanks for clearing that up. That makes sense. I wonder if any one has tried water injection on the dyno yet for a boat motor?

[gnarley]

From my contact at Aquamist in England.
Charles,
I don't have one but I do have a power plot on an engine dyno where the engine will not get pass the 799BHP due to detonation, with tywo 0.7mm water jets, approximately flowing 1 litre per minute the engien sailed through the 5500 RPM and reach a mximum power of 900BHP.
Pity I can only give you the near information you requested but NOT the exact information you wanted.
Regards
(name removed)
ERL Ltd
Iroko House
Bolney Avenue
Peacehaven
E.Sussex
BN10 8HF
England
T: +44 1273 581007
F: +44 1273 581555

[blownrat]

check out snowperforance.com this is what iam looking into

[gnarley]

Originally posted by blownrat
check out snowperforance.com this is what iam looking into
Bad link, I had to search for what you suggesting http://www.snowperformance.net/ but thanks for the suggestion.

[Unchained]

One factor that no one has mentioned here is that with the intercooler it takes several seconds for the intercooler core to get hot and the temp rises slowly (relatively) until the water flow balances out with the amount of heat from the compressor.
Not much of an advantage for an offshore boat but a huge advantage in a drag race situation where the run is over in 7 to 10 sec.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220DatalogOct03-med.jpg
You can see in the datalog. The throttle went to 99% and the manifold temp was at 89 degrees, after 2 seconds the manifold temp was only up to 118 degrees but the boost had been at 20 lbs since 1.5 sec.
Also I've noticed in the datalog that as the intake temp rises the max rpm comes down, probably from less HP turning the jet pump.
Mark

[TexasJet]

no i'm being serious. i bought one am wondering what the real benefit of it is. Cyclone, are you saying you bought a blower and built the motor especially for a blower and you didn't do a whole bunch of research first? That dosn't sound at all like you.:)

[cyclone]

Originally posted by TexasJet
no i'm being serious. i bought one am wondering what the real benefit of it is. Cyclone, are you saying you bought a blower and built the motor especially for a blower and you didn't do a whole bunch of research first? That dosn't sound at all like you.:)
yes on the blower motor research. the innercooler was a last minute decision that i was curious about.