F*ck walmart [Archive] - RiverRacer.Net

Havasu Hangin'

01-31-2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by skeepwerkzaz
CAPITALISM, Free Trade, whatever you want to call it, is the reason why we are all able here on these boards. It is the very fabric of our being. 100 years ago you could buy everything possible, and I mean everything, houses, cars, diapers, gasoline, farm equipment, horses, etc from one store, Sears & Roebuck. This same argument was prevalent at the time, how one "large bad company" was going to take over the world. People were outraged that the mom and pops were getting put out of business by the big company. This is by no means a new problem, but an old one dealing with resistance to change. Nobody wants to SEE change, but everbody wants to prosper from it.
My thoughts....
Clay
Sorry Clay...but you're kinda wrong.
Capitalism cannot run unchecked in a free market economy without checks and balances (laws like Robinson Patman).
For example, let's say there's this really big company...we'll call them "BallMart". Now BallMart started as a small retailer in Fontana...but has grown into the second largest ball retailer in the world.
Now this BallMart is so big, it can come into a market, and undercut the competition by selling balls for less than everyone else. They claim that it is their "buying power"...but the reality is that it's dead-net pricing from it's vendors (and overseas purchasing) does not support it's claim...so they are selling at a loss to put the competition out of business.
Once the competition is out of business, BallMart then raises prices, and controls retail pricing throughout that ball market. That market is no longer a free market.
The FTC also prevents this sort of monopoly...by monitoring marketshare and approving aquisitions.
So I guess we don't live in a true capitalistic society. Shocking, I know.

sandblasted

01-31-2004, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by MRS FLYIN VEE
why is it people like you have to bring up a fat ass woman.. why can't it be a fat ass man.. oh I forgot. they would rather stay in front of the f**king t,v alday and be waited on hand and foot for there skinny ass wife to bring them a beer and change the channel on the t.v because they lost the remote..
if you don't like a place then stay out of it.. shop somewhere else.. hey sandblasted want to go to walmart.. i'll get a sinny chick for you that doesn't want to move but I will guarentee you, you will not want to say excuse me and go around.. you will let here sit there until you get some eye candy then she will end up going around you..:D :D :D :D
I suppose I could have said "fat ass men" but that would be missleading as most of the people in Walmart seem to be "fat ass women", at least in Lancaster!:D

MRS FLYIN VEE

01-31-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by sandblasted
I suppose I could have said "fat ass men" but that would be missleading as most of the people in Walmart seem to be "fat ass women", at least in Lancaster!:D
LMAO!! this is true.. we use to live in palmdale.. we moved after the earthquake.. I'm glad we did or I might have been the one in front of you in walmart.. :D :D :D :D LOL!!

sandblasted

01-31-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by MRS FLYIN VEE
LMAO!! this is true.. we use to live in palmdale.. we moved after the earthquake.. I'm glad we did or I might have been the one in front of you in walmart.. :D :D :D :D LOL!!
Are you trying to make me feel bad, rubbing it in that you escaped from the Antelope Valley? ;)

MRS FLYIN VEE

01-31-2004, 11:46 AM

no.. I just don't have to buy a 5 lb bag of flour for mr vee to find the wet spot.. :D :D J/K
;)
we moved because we couldn't do the commute anymore here to L.A.. It got too bad with the traffic and accidents and all. :D

sandblasted

01-31-2004, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by MRS FLYIN VEE
no.. I just don't have to buy a 5 lb bag of flour for mr vee to find the wet spot.. :D :D J/K
;)
we moved because we couldn't do the commute anymore here to L.A.. It got too bad with the traffic and accidents and all. :D
Lucky for me I work up here, if I had to commute I'd probably move also....The only good thing is that I am about 1.5 hours closer to the river than you are! :D

MRS FLYIN VEE

01-31-2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by sandblasted
Lucky for me I work up here, if I had to commute I'd probably move also....The only good thing is that I am about 1.5 hours closer to the river than you are! :D
oh now look who is calling the kettle black.. :D :D I use to love leaving from palmdale.. it was 1hr less.. LOL!! :D :D

JetBoatRich

01-31-2004, 11:51 AM

Greg, I am home now. Sorry I missed you, come by now if you want:eek:

HighRoller

01-31-2004, 12:44 PM

I've got an idea. Instead of whining about it on here, don't shop there. The biggest statement you'll ever make is with your wallet. And Wal-Mart didn't become huge by "putting other companies out of business". They did things better, faster and cheaper. It's called competition.

Havasu Hangin'

01-31-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by HighRoller
And Wal-Mart didn't become huge by "putting other companies out of business". They did things better, faster and cheaper. It's called competition.
HighRoller...if you search long enough, you'll see many small businesses that were put out of business by Wal Mart...and are sueing them for anti-competitive behavior. Book stores seem to be hit hard.
So doing things "better, faster, and cheaper" may not always the case. Competition is good, but anti-competitive behavior is illegal.
I'm not saying everything they do is bad, but if you think they wear a halo...whatever you're on HighRoller, I want some (cuz it's stroooong). Sam Walton was gone in '92, and the company he started was gone long before that.
Originally posted by HighRoller
I've got an idea. Instead of whining about it on here, don't shop there. The biggest statement you'll ever make is with your wallet.
Well...here's a deep thought for you. Perhaps people will vote "with their wallet" and pay more for the same goods and services just to keep the local economy supporting other business...maybe those businesses give something back to the community, such as higher wages or donating time to youth organizations, etc. that Wal Mart doesn't.
Originally posted by riodog
Havasu hangin, you got it right again! Damn your smart but what's really scarey is that we agree on so much!
Sorry riopuppy...I'm sure you don't want to associate with rif-raf like myself... ;)

My Man's Sportin' Wood

01-31-2004, 02:27 PM

I just hate big business period. I don't shop at Wal-Mart, I don't buy starbux stuff, and I don't go to Barnes & Noble if I can avoid it. I would rather pay a little more and know that I'm helping my neighbor live the American Dream and own his own business. I hope other small business owners do the same, before someone comes along to undercut their prices at a loss, to put them out of business. We will not have free competition when there is only one choice of place to shop.
BTW, 100 years ago, Sears, Roebuck & Co. was a mail order company (as was their competitor, Montgomery Ward) and they catered to the people who lived in rural areas unable to get to a store easily. Sorry, skeepwerkzaz, I can see a little comparison, but not much.

Blown 472

01-31-2004, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by riodog
Havasu hangin, you got it right again! Damn your smart but what's really scarey is that we agree on so much! Have we ever worked togather before?
The problem with Walmart is not the 'free market' concept so much as the 'where's the money going' concept. The 'world economy' concept is a joke as our gov't has seen fit to stack the deck against US. We are fighting a losing battle as long as the rest of the world is not playing by the same rules as we are forced to play by. When we buy products that are manufactured elsewhere then that money goes to support that economy and does nothing to help our own economy except make a very few people very wealthy. Basically what this means is that we are subsidizing the rest of the world at the expense of us. If, for example, we bought a boat part that was worth a dollar by being made here then we got a boat part that was worth a dollar minus the profit, shipping, etc., that stayed in this country. However if we bought a boat part that was made elsewhere, then we got a boat part that was worth whatever it was worth IN THAT COUNTRY"S DOLLARS. If things were to be made so that we could compete on a world market then the cost of labor, materials, etc. would have to be the same, or we should be getting 3 or 4 boat parts for the same dollar. IF the WALTONS weren't so ****in GREEDY then they would pay a living wage, plus benfits, etc., and the prices would be less than half of what they presently charge. The way this country is regulating business at the present the half dozen or so Waltons are getting richer at the expense of HOW MANY OTHERS! Every small business that contributes to the American economy that has gone out of business because of Walmart has hurt YOU cuz they aren't around to spend their dollars HERE. Every dollar that has gone overseas and every dollar that has been sent to Mexico has done abso****inlutely nothing the help our economy-it's helped cripple our economy to the point that our own hard working people are being denied things and services that shouldn't be denied. I'm all for competition in the market place but we can't compete when our gov't has tied our hands behind our back.
Before any of you no-load-white collar theory spouttin-self employed punks start flamin me-stop and remember- I'm one of you! Then stop and think, and this is not an extention of the "strike" thread, that if YOUR hero's the Waltons paid a living wage then the employees and their families could spend some of that income with those of us that sell insurance, fix ac/heaters, build room additions, peddle clothing, sell boat parts, get fixed by the chiropractor, buy homes, buy BMW's and golf carts, have their boats repaired, etc. Want me to go on? How about this question? HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER DONE ANY BUSINESS WITH THE WALTONS AND BENEFITTED FROM ALL OF THE MONEY THAT THEY'VE TAKEN OUT OF THE ECONOMY? Whether it went into their own pocket or went overseas!
This country is "bleedin from both ends"! Sending our money overseas and out of the country and all of the while we're invitin in the Worlds Indigents and takin care of them once they're here . Our economy won't be right until we start takin care of ourselves and say **** the rest of the world. We need to change our constitution, change our immigration laws, change our citizenship laws, change our social laws, change our import and export laws and tariffs, and stop the flow of all monies to Mexico. Why are we bendin over backwards for the rest of the world when they should be kissin our asses, worshipping the ground we walk on and we put a stop to The Waltons of the country who profit at the expense and wellbeing of the normal working person. Unless it's an all out effort on every front then all we're doing is using a bandaid to stop the bleeding from a lost leg!
********* WALMART*****
Riodog:yuk: :yuk:
Very well said Rio, my ex company is a fine example of that, walmart told them they can get plastic bags cheaper overseas, so what did they force us to do?? go overseas or go under, now they are talking about building a plant over there cuz they can pay them .62 cents per hour and they can get resin cheaper from the same manufactures overseas. So begins the ripple effect, no capital spending on equipment, no work to the machine shops and vendors, no work for them layoffs which just keep rippling thru the entire community.
Thus the reason I have no job there, I am targeting the food and dairy industry now as they cant ship that overseas.:mad:

THOR

01-31-2004, 05:35 PM

We fought the Walmart here in HB, but it went up instead. Let me tell you first hand, that it brings in the worst element possible. The trashiest and most low life scum shop there and it brings down perfectly nice communities.
I personally havent shopped in a Walmart in over 5 years since I left Vegas.

Dr. Eagle

01-31-2004, 06:01 PM

I agree that Wal Mart has pushed the envelope of free enterprise to the max. I especially dislike the fact that they no longer seem to follow the "made in USA" philosiphy of Sam Walton.
All the big-box stores have a similar effect as Wal Mart on the local businesses. Home Depot and Lowes drove the three small hardware/lumber stores out of business in my town, not WM. But it is a fact that they do tend to create a climate where local mom and pops cannot survive. If they do so by predatory pricing, then they should be sanctioned, but I don't beleive that there have been any or at least not many sucessful suits, meaning judgements against WM.
In most of the places I have gone the people that frequent the WM seem to be from a lower socio-economic class. Is it my place to judge and say they are "trashing my town"? I don't think so, but you can always vote with your feet. I go there on occasion for certain things perhaps once every two months or so...but I find myself doing so much less these days. They may let their swagger bring them down over time...we'll have to wait and see.

mickeyfinn

01-31-2004, 06:17 PM

Quote:
Now this BallMart is so big, it can come into a market, and undercut the competition by selling balls for less than everyone else. They claim that it is their "buying power"...but the reality is that it's dead-net pricing from it's vendors (and overseas purchasing) does not support it's claim...so they are selling at a loss to put the competition out of business.
Once the competition is out of business, BallMart then raises prices, and controls retail pricing throughout that ball market. That market is no longer a free market.
This may all be true on a short term, however there are always people in this country who understand how free enterprise works and if they get too pricey with their goods after driving the mom and pops out of business someone will open and force them to compete again. That is essentially what happened to some of the other major retailers in this country. They grab a strong hold over a certain segment of a particular market and get fat dumb and happy. They get top heavy with management and other forms of overhead and find themselves in a position which makes it difficult to compete once they are forced to be competitive again. That is all part of the free enterprise system. Like it or not it is all supply and demand. The lower the price the higher the demand and if someone can provide the same goods or services cheaper than the competition they are going to make money and grow. Once they get too greedy someone will come up and snatch it away from them.

cruser

01-31-2004, 06:26 PM

Highroller
Where in Portland do you live in? Your topics allways seem to match things I see around the area I live in, the western suburbs. PM me if you don't want to advertise.
cruzer

Havasu Hangin'

01-31-2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by mickeyfinn
This may all be true on a short term, however there are always people in this country who understand how free enterprise works and if they get too pricey with their goods after driving the mom and pops out of business someone will open and force them to compete again.
You must have a Disneyalnd MBA...that's pretty funny.
If that were true, then why does the government (of a free market economy) regulate marketshare and police monopolies?
I wish you were right...but that's Fantasyland. You must have been brainwashed by the multimillion dollar marketing campaign that makes WalMart look like a down-home member of the family.
If you don't think price-fixing goes on (long-term), then you must not be looking at the gas prices, either.

wsuwrhr

01-31-2004, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Mrs. Sportin' Wood
I just hate big business period. I don't shop at Wal-Mart, I don't buy starbux stuff, and I don't go to Barnes & Noble if I can avoid it. I would rather pay a little more and know that I'm helping my neighbor live the American Dream and own his own business. I hope other small business owners do the same, before someone comes along to undercut their prices at a loss, to put them out of business. We will not have free competition when there is only one choice of place to shop.
BTW, 100 years ago, Sears, Roebuck & Co. was a mail order company (as was their competitor, Montgomery Ward) and they catered to the people who lived in rural areas unable to get to a store easily. Sorry, skeepwerkzaz, I can see a little comparison, but not much.
I can't agree more. Perfect post.
Brian

Blown 472

01-31-2004, 08:25 PM

Dude, I agree with 98% of the stuff you post on this site.

Dr. Eagle

01-31-2004, 08:32 PM

Well Riodog, I have defended WM in the past, but I think they have worn out my trust and patience. I dislike their business model in a lot of ways, in other ways I consider it to be brilliant. One thing you have to acknowledge is that they have been successful...highly successful.
However, I think they are pushing their influence too hard and many communities are rolling over in spite of organized opposition...right or wrong. Some are turning them away however, I just read that a community had denied a rezone for WM in the so cal area.
Regardless, I think their swager and lead footed approach is going to cost them ultimately. I still patronize them, but as I said...not very much. My Wife used to do a lot of shopping there, now she does not. Remember the days when Sears thought they owned retail? It almost put them out of business. The same could happen to WM, like I said time will tell.:eek:
Oh and BTW, Nurse Beagle isn't going to redress the "U" word again...

Blown 472

01-31-2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by riodog
Blown, I wouldn't say that too loud around here cuz I'm usually in the dog house! LOL
Rio
**** em if they cant handle the truth.:D

TheLurker

01-31-2004, 08:52 PM

Dr. Eagle

01-31-2004, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Blown 472
**** em if they cant handle the truth.:D
Thanks for your sentiment.....

AzDon

01-31-2004, 09:11 PM

Damn Rio!... I been hammering the issues of job exporting, cheap labor importing and the effects that the downward grind on labor pricing is going to eventually have on our ability to remain the world's premier consumer economy--- I haven't been getting much traction with the most of the IGM's on here ( IGM= I Got Mine!)
It's nice to see that there ARE some guys on here that are concerned about the future availability of living-wage jobs for their children and grandchildren.
My job requires skills, experience and certifications, so I'm not worried about being replaced by cheaper manpower, but my industry victimizes itself with low-ball pricing and my company is forced to compete, meaning that wages are stagnant. My 2 kids are f'n brilliant and should do okay in life, assuming there are any good jobs left that haven't either been exported or been cheapened by an oversupply of re-trainees from other fields. I see the day coming when there won't be enough paying customers to keep small businessmen afloat.
The first order of business for our next President needs to be to declare war on the wage slide in this country by implementing trade policies that are fair to us and to stop the export of our living-wage jobs and the import of cheap laborers who ultimately qualify for public assistance. If we are ever to get a handle on these welfare programs, we have to stop allowing wages that are so low that they beg supplemental assistance from us taxpayers. This is nothing more than a taxpayer subsidy to the low-wage company!
I strongly believe in protectionist policies because I think we can survive without cheap foreign goods much easier than those countries can do without our dollars. If we are to remain viable as purchasers of ANY goods, there needs to be an abundance of living wage jobs

wsuwrhr

01-31-2004, 09:26 PM

You guys are all talking my language. Moldmaking(and manufacturing) is being sent to China, Korea, and wherever else. Manufacturing is taking a dive, and WE are all at the wheel. Buying a foreign made product for a few dollars less instead of the better made, more expensive US made product will get us ALL in no time. Freedom isn't free.
We need a level playing field in which to compete.
I think we need FAIR trade, not FREE trade.
Brian

HighRoller

01-31-2004, 09:37 PM

I see the day coming when there won't be enough paying customers to keep small businessmen afloat
Here we go with the Chicken Little stuff again! We're going to go from having an economy with 77% of the jobs coming from small business to nothing? I doubt it. So are we to rely on protectionist policies to protect us from low wages? I hope not. After all ,won't that just serve to make us even lazier if we know we don't have to compete. World competition is what makes our country the leader. We've always overcome shortcomings in one area by being excellent in another. If we can't be the cheapest labor force, we'll be the smartest. And while all the crappy brainless jobs get exported we'll create demand for a new product or service right here. As far as low wages, there's an easy way to protect yourself from them. Get a marketable skill. I'm tired of hearing people whine that the minimum wage isn't sufficient for a family to live on. First, you shouldn't have kids if you make minimun wage. Second, minimum wage isn't designed for families to live on. That's why it's called MINIMUM wage.

Blown 472

01-31-2004, 09:41 PM

Who said anything about minimum wage?? marketable skill?? mechanical design with 12 years in converting process trouble shooting, sorta hard to get a gig doing that when the ****ing machines are being ripped out and shipped to china to make the same product over there.

6 Dollar Boat

02-01-2004, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by HighRoller
If we can't be the cheapest labor force, we'll be the smartest. And while all the crappy brainless jobs get exported we'll create demand for a new product or service right here. As far as low wages, there's an easy way to protect yourself from them. Get a marketable skill.
OK HR, I'm sure you believe this, but let's just say all the "brainless crappy jobs" get exported. Then George W. gives every third world citizen a free pass to work here if they have a job. What would keep companies like Wal-Mart from recruiting employees from other countries.
This would leave millions of Americans competing for the few "marketable skills jobs". The future doesn't look great :confused:, fortunately I watch Cops and see the workforce I have to compete against. I'm not worried.:) :) :)

78Eliminator

02-01-2004, 12:42 AM

I have been told for the past year, in every weekly status meeting that my job is going to be off shored to India. I have the uneasy feeling every day I walk into work that it might be the last. I am not even a real employee. I work for a staffing company which punks me for some of my pay and then lets me work for a company that doesn't want to pay me any benefits or give me any holiday pay. Hey, thanks a lot. Next time can you spit on it before you stick it in?
I am so ****ing sick of everything I drive, wear, type on, sit on, sleep on, ****ing everything is made someplace else. Most of the things which were INVENTED HERE! I just can't believe it. The best we can really do is boycott while the white trash an illegal aliens flood the isles of the shit holes like Wall Mart. It smells like dirty diapers and cheap perfume. If you want to get a blow job at lunch, take a stroll in there because every woman in there is a hooker and every man is a piece of shit. The parking lot is a ****ing oil slick because of the peice of shit cars that roll in there. Isles and isles of food wrappers where the bottom feed excuses for human beings steal the food. I have been there a couple times as you can tell, but don't plan on going back ever again.
What ever happened to the small convenience store where the clerk knew your name and practically had your stuff bagged for you when you walked in the door? What ever happened to customer service and individuality? What ever happened to doing things slow, but with pride, precision and integrity?
Man, I need a beer. Sierra Nevada, not Corona.

TheLurker

02-01-2004, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
If you don't think price-fixing goes on (long-term), then you must not be looking at the gas prices, either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I didnt see this comment the first time and although it is the unpopular position I have to call BullShit. The gasoline market is the best example of the correlation between supply and demand you can see on a daily basis.
You guys dont know how good you have it with the price of gasoline in this country even when you consider all of the government /environmental regulations. You just bitch because you have to have it but dont want to pay for it. Read the whole article below. Also be sure you look where the statistics are compiled.
__________________________________________________ __
Policy Analysis & Statistics
Changes in the Price of Gasoline Compared to Other
Common Consumer Items
Gasoline is a bargain. Its price has increased less
since the early 1980s than the average price of
other consumer goods generally. Changes over
time in the price of a gallon of gasoline and other
consumer items are measured in the Consumer
Price Index (CPI). The CPI is defined by the
Bureau of Labor Statistics as a measure of the
average change in prices over time in a fixed
market basket of goods and services that
consumers purchase for their day-to-day living
needs.1
Changes in the Price of Gasoline and Other
Consumer Items Between 1982-84 and 2002
Tobacco and Smoking Products = 378.2%
College Tuition and Fees = 276.9%
Tuition, School Fees, & Childcare = 265.6%
Prescription Drugs & Med Supplies = 217.9%
Motor Vehicle Insurance = 194.1%
Dental Services = 182.4%
Physician's Services = 161.7%
Water and Sewerage Services = 143.1%
Airline Fare = 135.0%
Apples = 131.5%
Tomatoes = 130.1%
White Bread = 112.7%
Breakfast Cereal = 101.7%
Rent of Primary Residence = 100.4%
Motor Vehicle Repair & Maintenance = 91.2%
Postage = 90.9%
All Items = 80.5%
Food Away from Home = 78.8%
Bananas = 64.5%
Meats = 59.8%
Used Cars and Trucks = 53.7%
Coffee = 42.4%
New Vehicles = 39.2%
Electricity = 36.6%
Carbonated Drinks = 23.4%
Men's and Boy's Apparel = 20.6%
Gasoline = 19.0%
The figure shows how the price of gasoline has
changed over the past 18 to 20 years in
comparison with changes in the price of a sample
of other goods and services that people buy for
daily living, such as carbonated drinks, used cars
and trucks, food away from home, and
prescription drugs. The CPI base period of 1982-
84 is used to measure price changes. For
example, with 1982-84 equal to 100, the index
value for All items in August 2002 is 180.5. This
means that the average price (including all taxes)
of a fixed market basket of goods and services
increased 80.5 percent between 1982-84 and
August 2002. In comparison, the index value of
gasoline (119.0) shows that its price increased 19
percent, or about three-fourths less than the
average for All items. The higher index value for
the other goods and services demonstrate that the
prices for these items have increased more than
the price of gasoline.
1 The price data used to construct the index are collected monthly by Bureau of Labor Statistics representatives who record about 80,000 prices from selected department stores, supermarkets, service stations, doctors offices, rental units, etc., throughout the U.S.
See U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer
Price Indexes, Frequently Asked Questions,
http://www.bls.gov/cpifaq.htm.
__________________________________________________ __Also there has not been a new refinery refinery built in this country in over 30 years due mostly to environmental regulations, and the NIMBY syndrome. These would provide good high paying professional, managerial, Union (Machinist, Electrician, Welding, Pipefitting etc.) jobs in this country. Ya think there might be a few more cars on the road and a few more boats on the water since then. So where do we make up for our lack of supply? We Import!
I could go into more depth but I wont unless you want to start a new thread on this subject. I dont want to hijack the Wal-Mart one any longer

MagicMtnDan

02-01-2004, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by riodog
This country is "bleedin from both ends"! Sending our money overseas and out of the country and all of the while we're invitin in the Worlds Indigents and takin care of them once they're here . Our economy won't be right until we start takin care of ourselves and say **** the rest of the world. ********* WALMART*****
Riodog:yuk: :yuk:
Riodog, I did read your monologue and agree with much of it but I would appreciate it if you would hit the Enter/Return key once in a while to break up your text (thanks).
I agree that Walmart sucks. They suck the life out of small businesses everywhere they put up a store. In one instance I remember how they came to a town and killed 8 bicycle stores. I understand that Walmart is now the largest seller of bicycles in the United States. Does that make me happy? No, but we vote with our wallets and the only product we buy there is their clear bubbly water (fruit-flavored soda - zero carbs) - been buying it for a few years now and can't find it anywhere else (at that quality or price).
Walmart is simply a result of the evolution of free-market capitalism. They're not rocket scientists in Bentonville, Arkansas, they're just exerting pressure on companies that WANT to sell to Walmart by demanding low prices and acceptable quality and they force the vendors to compete with each other to provide higher quality and lower costs. It's not Walmart's fault that Americans flock to their stores like lemmings to the sea! :mad:
I hate the fact that Walmart is the largest company in the world - more sales and more employees than any other company. It used to be oil companies but what was so good about them being the largest? Before them it was the auto makers (GM) but they weren't going to keep the top spot since the unions have their hypodermic needles locked into their (the automakers') veins. :eek:
But the issues here involve a lot more than Walmart. NAFTA is a much larger problem for our country. One small example: Only after NAFTA did we see our food supply become threatened and the quality fall. When Mexican farms use water polluted with human fecal matter and spray it on their green onions (scallions) and restaurants in the US fed them to their patrons causing hundreds to be ill with Hepatitis A and killing a number of people (recent outbreak in Western Pennsylvania at Chi-Chis restaurants. (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04010/260078.stm)
Originally posted by riodog
We need to change our constitution, change our immigration laws, change our citizenship laws, change our social laws, change our import and export laws and tariffs, and stop the flow of all monies to Mexico. Why are we bendin over backwards for the rest of the world when they should be kissin our asses, worshipping the ground we walk on and we put a stop to The Waltons of the country who profit at the expense and wellbeing of the normal working person. Unless it's an all out effort on every front then all we're doing is using a bandaid to stop the bleeding from a lost leg! Riodog:yuk: :yuk:
Change our constitution? I don't agree but I'm willing to listen to your proposition.
Change our citizenship laws? As quickly as possible but it won't happen because our politicians are addicted to votes of any kind. And they all have overdosed on the power that comes from being in office that they'll do ANYTHING to get re-elected and that's why they all want illegal aliens to have the right to vote. They're like $5 hookers at the docks waiting for the sailors to come ashore. They'll do anything for votes.
Stop the flow of monies to Mexico? Not sure how you're going to do that except to keep the illegals from coming into our country, from staying in our country, and from working here. When the government (our politicians) realizes that illegal aliens are sucking the life out of this country more than Walmart is, then maybe they'll do something about it. Our borders are a joke because the politicos are afraid of doing something "polticially uncorrect" and speaking out about the size and impact of the problem. Stop politicians from getting re-elected and they'll stop from running for re-election as soon as they get in office! (term limits!)
Look, one of the real problems with Walmart is that they're smart businessmen taking advantage of a world that has become "smaller." Goods are shipped all over the world now like never before. Countries with poor/low/no economies are now able to provide the cheapest possible labor. It's basic economics to use those sources to make products that are less costly. It's how the US got its start and other countries are simply following in our footsteps. The good news is that once their economies grow (and US companies benefit from that so money does come back here), then those countries grow internally and need more goods and services that we can provide to them (engineering, construction, infrastructure - all the services and products that our country has become so good at providing).
It's an evoloutionary process - countries that can continue to grow and prosper will ultimately have a higher paid workforce that will buy more products and services. And those countries will become players in the world's economy instead of looking like refugee camps filled with starving, uneducated people who need the rest of the world to give them handouts of food, clothing and medical care.
I want the flow of jobs leaving this country to stop. But it should not, cannot, and must not be stopped by legislation! Our government can't run itself - our politicians cannot be trusted to control themselves or write laws that work. Politicians talk out their arses because most of them don't have any skills other than being politicians and getting re-elected! Until more businessmen become politicians, our country will be run by incompetent, greedy, ignorant politicians who act like drug-addicted hookers looking to turn tricks to pay for their addicition.
We need our citizens to stop being so polarized by political party. Who cares about Democrats and Republicans when we only have two viable parties and THEY BOTH SUCK! We need to take our country back and work together (and VOTE) to force our politicians to do the jobs they were elected to do - TO TAKE CARE OF US. WE ARE THEIR CONSTITUENTS! THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING FOR US!
It's all a very complex issue of politics and economics and while I don't pretend to be an expert (nor do I play one on TV), I can see clearly that our political system is broken and needs to be fixed. No, President Bush is not doing the job I had hoped he would but do I want a liberal, tax-and-spend, income re-distributor, like John Kerry as the next president? HELL NO!
PS: there are rumors that Arnold may allow the illegal aliens to get their drivers licenses after all! We have to watch ALL politicians! We must make the politicians works for us before they give away and permanently degrade our most precious right - our CITIZENSHIP!

Havasu Hangin'

02-01-2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by TheLurker
You guys dont know how good you have it with the price of gasoline in this country even when you consider all of the government /environmental regulations. You just bitch because you have to have it but dont want to pay for it. Read the whole article below. Also be sure you look where the statistics are compiled.
I was referring to the policy of corporate vs. franchise retailers. I have seen it happen in So Cal, although congress has scrutinized in the Pacific Northwest and other areas.
When an oil company opens a corporate retail outlet very near a franchise outlet...and undercuts them on price everyday, the franchise is forced to close or sell to the company (depending on it's lease agreement).
Look at the % of franchise retailers vs. 10 years ago.
If all the "small retailers" (AKA- franchisees) are gone in the large markets, there is no competition for the corporation. Since there are fewer oil companies, it opens the door for potential price-fixing...which they have already been accused (and in some cases, found guilty) of...

MagicMtnDan

02-01-2004, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by 78Eliminator
I am so ****ing sick of everything I drive, wear, type on, sit on, sleep on, ****ing everything is made someplace else. Most of the things which were INVENTED HERE! I just can't believe it. The best we can really do is boycott while the white trash an illegal aliens flood the isles of the shit holes like Wall Mart. It smells like dirty diapers and cheap perfume. If you want to get a blow job at lunch, take a stroll in there because every woman in there is a hooker and every man is a piece of shit. The parking lot is a ****ing oil slick because of the peice of shit cars that roll in there. Isles and isles of food wrappers where the bottom feed excuses for human beings steal the food. I have been there a couple times as you can tell, but don't plan on going back ever again.
What ever happened to the small convenience store where the clerk knew your name and practically had your stuff bagged for you when you walked in the door? What ever happened to customer service and individuality? What ever happened to doing things slow, but with pride, precision and integrity?
Man, I need a beer. Sierra Nevada, not Corona.
Some great points you made and you would think that they'd be the basis of a new business! Where has customer service gone and why can't it come back? Why can't a company decide that it's going to be different and provide the customer service that almost no company provides anymore?! Is customer service really all that costly to provide? Do low prices mean that customer service can't be provided? I don't think so.
It reminds of something I've seen on TV lately and you've seen it too if you watched any of the debates between the Democratic candidates. They had what, 8 or 9 people fighting for the nomination, and not one of those nitwits could come up with an idea or plan that differentiated him or herself from the other inept politicians.
Why doesn't one politican in this country stand up and make a name for him or herself and be courageous? Why isn't there one poltician who says what he or she believes about one of the largest problems in this country? Where is the courage and strength and belief in one's convictions to stand up and be counted? Why doesn't one politician become the candidate of the CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES?!
Why doesn't one candidate have the balls to say, we must protect our borders from illegal immigration? Securing our borders will do two huge things:
1. Protect us from our enemies who want to come here and kill us!
2. Protect us from illegal immigrants who want to (and are) sucking the life out of our country!
Illegal immigrants send millions out of the country. And even worse, they take BILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS in health care and social services.
Millions of illegal immigrants are too big of a burden on our country and it's a cancer that must be stopped.
Where the F are our politicans when we need them most? Why isn't one politican smart enough, courageous enough to stand up and be counted on to say and do the right thing?! Can you imagine the groundswell of support that a strong politician would get if he or she ran for president on a platform that involved:
* Taking back our country from those who are stealing it from us (illegal aliens, corrupt politicians, white collar criminals - wall street corruption and white collar crime are really hurting our country too - Enron, Tyco, etc., etc.).
* Ensuring that US citizenship continues to mean something by not giving it away like so much else in our country is given away.
* Being courageous enough to call BS whenever he or she sees another politician selling out our country just to get re-elected. (for example: President Clinton's administration sold this country out to the Chinese and others - top secret nuclear weapons programs were allowed to be taken in exchange for money/political contributions).
There have been so many things done by our politicians in order to get re-elected that it's hard to keep track of them anymore. There's nothing they won't do to get in and stay in positions of power. We see it every day and we have become numbed by their greed and hunger for power.
America needs at least one leader who will stand up and demonstrate that he/she can be different and can put this country back on track.
(Sorry for the rants but this stuff really pisses me off)

wsuwrhr

02-01-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by HighRoller
Here we go with the Chicken Little stuff again! We're going to go from having an economy with 77% of the jobs coming from small business to nothing? I doubt it. So are we to rely on protectionist policies to protect us from low wages? I hope not. After all ,won't that just serve to make us even lazier if we know we don't have to compete. World competition is what makes our country the leader. We've always overcome shortcomings in one area by being excellent in another. If we can't be the cheapest labor force, we'll be the smartest. And while all the crappy brainless jobs get exported we'll create demand for a new product or service right here. As far as low wages, there's an easy way to protect yourself from them. Get a marketable skill. I'm tired of hearing people whine that the minimum wage isn't sufficient for a family to live on. First, you shouldn't have kids if you make minimun wage. Second, minimum wage isn't designed for families to live on. That's why it's called MINIMUM wage.
While I do agree with your idea, I still want to ask, How do WE compete with a labor force that works for .50 cents a day? I couldn't even eat with that kind of money in the US.
Brian

wsuwrhr

02-01-2004, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by riodog
[B]Brian: While I'm sure that someone imports a 'bottle bracket' for $50.00 or so, I will be coming to you in the next month or so as long as you don't hire an illegal to do the machining while you sit at the titty bar! LOL- did I mention my twisted sense of humor?
Tech jobs, precision machinist jobs, jobs in the medical field, etc., these are NOT low wage, brainless jobs that we are losing!
I picked apart your post to respond directly.
Haha, no illegals here. I machine everything myself.
I am not beating on you, I just want everyone to know my personal experience why this subject means so much to ME.
Manufacturing and machinist jobs are being bled to death. We layed off half the toolmakers at my day job, we are talking three 20+/hour jobs. Two of them got jobs at 16/hour, one retired. Now think of the money they made that isn't getting spent now. It is a ripple effect.
Brian

wsuwrhr

02-01-2004, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
Some great points you made and you would think that they'd be the basis of a new business! Where has customer service gone and why can't it come back? Why can't a company decide that it's going to be different and provide the customer service that almost no company provides anymore?! Is customer service really all that costly to provide? Do low prices mean that customer service can't be provided? I don't think so.
It reminds of something I've seen on TV lately and you've seen it too if you watched any of the debates between the Democratic candidates. They had what, 8 or 9 people fighting for the nomination, and not one of those nitwits could come up with an idea or plan that differentiated him or herself from the other inept politicians.
Why doesn't one politican in this country stand up and make a name for him or herself and be courageous? Why isn't there one poltician who says what he or she believes about one of the largest problems in this country? Where is the courage and strength and belief in one's convictions to stand up and be counted? Why doesn't one politician become the candidate of the CITIZENS of the UNITED STATES?!
Why doesn't one candidate have the balls to say, we must protect our borders from illegal immigration? Securing our borders will do two huge things:
1. Protect us from our enemies who want to come here and kill us!
2. Protect us from illegal immigrants who want to (and are) sucking the life out of our country!
Illegal immigrants send millions out of the country. And even worse, they take BILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS in health care and social services.
Millions of illegal immigrants are too big of a burden on our country and it's a cancer that must be stopped.
Where the F are our politicans when we need them most? Why isn't one politican smart enough, courageous enough to stand up and be counted on to say and do the right thing?! Can you imagine the groundswell of support that a strong politician would get if he or she ran for president on a platform that involved:
* Taking back our country from those who are stealing it from us (illegal aliens, corrupt politicians, white collar criminals - wall street corruption and white collar crime are really hurting our country too - Enron, Tyco, etc., etc.).
* Ensuring that US citizenship continues to mean something by not giving it away like so much else in our country is given away.
* Being courageous enough to call BS whenever he or she sees another politician selling out our country just to get re-elected. (for example: President Clinton's administration sold this country out to the Chinese and others - top secret nuclear weapons programs were allowed to be taken in exchange for money/political contributions).
There have been so many things done by our politicians in order to get re-elected that it's hard to keep track of them anymore. There's nothing they won't do to get in and stay in positions of power. We see it every day and we have become numbed by their greed and hunger for power.
America needs at least one leader who will stand up and demonstrate that he/she can be different and can put this country back on track.
(Sorry for the rants but this stuff really pisses me off)
Good post, I think the biggest problem is, we all have gotten lazy, myself included.
I am almost embarassed, but I voted for the first time for the recall here in California. I will vote for the rest of my life.
I don't know exactly when political correctness started but it has to stop. People need to quit nitpicking what eveyone else is doing. Do what is right, and if you piss someone off, so be it. The borders need to be shut, and the people who are aren't supposed to be here need to be kickedthe****out.
If we have to pay minimum wage to pick fruit, then so be it. If goods cost more because of it, then we have to be prepared to pay more for the labor of goods that aren't done by illegal immigrants anymore.
Brian

Caribbean Jet

02-01-2004, 11:04 AM

They are trying to put a couple of those Super Wallmarts in San Diego. San Diego is fighting them going in because they know whta they will do. I don't like to shop Wallmart and I will always try and support the little guy first.

Dr. Eagle

02-01-2004, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
America needs at least one leader who will stand up and demonstrate that he/she can be different and can put this country back on track.
(Sorry for the rants but this stuff really pisses me off)
Dan I agree with your rant. The borders need to be closed. The illegals need to go home. The exporting of jobs needs to stop.
Carly Fiorini of HP said at a press conference a few months ago that (paraphrased) Americans don't have a god given right to the jobs of American companies. Now on one level I agree with that, companies should not be TOLD to hire all of their people here. They should REALIZE it is the best thing for the country.
With CEOs saying these kinds of things, they are playing with fire IMHO. My neighbor works for HP and he and I talk politics regularly. He has said that HP has exported tons of jobs to India, not manual labor assembly jobs...engineering and customer service jobs.
Now with all that being said, I see NO leader on the horizon with the vision and fortitude to fix any of this stuff. I have supported Bush in the past but, Bush won't fix it. In fact he will make the situation worse with his plan to appease the Mexican government.
Not a one of the Dems will either, the hispanic community is a part of their traditional base and so they have to (or at least will) pander. Basically on this issue, I think we are screwed.... Unless someone magically appears from the mist.
:(

Blown 472

02-01-2004, 12:55 PM

Where is Ross Perot? to bad the media is in gubments back pocket and railroaded him.

HighRoller

02-01-2004, 12:58 PM

A candidate who stands up and advocates common sense sounds good on paper, but he'd be laughed out of the race in a second. Why? Because our society has a "gimme gimme gimme" attitude nowadays. Politicians tell you what they will give you or do for you rather than what they stand for. Look at the presription drug benefit. My parents, who are very comfortable in their retirement, are eligible for the program. And people like me, who are still trying to build a financial house to retire on will pay for it. Everyone says how average people are struggling financially, but this is their own fault. The average car payment is $378 for 55 months. If you invested that same amount of money for 25 years at 10% you'd have 4 million dollars when you retired. Do you think anyone would need a drug benefit if they had that kind of money? But how many people are willing to buy a used car nowadays? People want to have their cake and eat it too, which means they live beyond their means and get the government to pay for the things they can't afford. Hence, a politician who stood up and told people that they could live better by using a little common sense would be a laughing stock. People don't want to hear the truth, they want a guy who will fix it for them while they make excuses.

HighRoller

02-01-2004, 01:00 PM

Where is Ross Perot? to bad the media is in gubments back pocket and railroaded him
Shit, he railroaded himself! By telling people George Bush tried to have the secret service ruin his daughter's wedding by having black panther members run across the lawn. He's a quack!

Blown 472

02-01-2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by HighRoller
Shit, he railroaded himself! By telling people George Bush tried to have the secret service ruin his daughter's wedding by having black panther members run across the lawn. He's a quack!
That might be but I think I recall him talking about a giant sucking sound.

Dr. Eagle

02-01-2004, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Blown 472
That might be but I think I recall him talking about a giant sucking sound.
Yeah, he discredited himself...big time!
But that GIANT SUCKIN SOUND in a high pitch was a very effective sales tool...

Blown 472

02-01-2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Yeah, he discredited himself...big time!
But that GIANT SUCKIN SOUND in a high pitch was a very effective sales tool...
But there in lies the irony, he might come off as whack job but look at what we have had in office?? who is the bar we measure from?? at least he probably wouldn't have shot his load on some whores dress.

Dr. Eagle

02-01-2004, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Blown 472
But there in lies the irony, he might come off as whack job but look at what we have had in office?? who is the bar we measure from?? at least he probably wouldn't have shot his load on some whores dress.
Agreed......;)

25 Eagle

02-01-2004, 01:34 PM

Ross Perot probably could have been the one to save our country. I really don't think he was a quack. Oh I forgot to add...DCB's are the cult!

Havasu Hangin'

02-01-2004, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by 25 Eagle
Ross Perot probably could have been the one to save our country. I really don't think he was a quack.
Good god! A post without DCB in it!
You better see a doctor...

Dr. Eagle

02-01-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by 25 Eagle
Ross Perot probably could have been the one to save our country. I really don't think he was a quack.
You are probably right, but his behavior pulling out of the race, then re-entering, spouting conspiracy theories etc. made him look like a flake. He might have just gotten things on track, but the country just didn't like that. Sounded like he was wining too much. That was what finally changed my mind on him.

Ken F

02-01-2004, 03:23 PM

Okay, here's a good example of what happened when they put a "Super Wallmart" in the small Missouri town I live in. We had three grocery stores. Two chain stores, Albertsons and Pricecutter, and an old, small IGA store. (which undoubtly was on it's way out anyway) When it was disclosed that WM was coming, and groundbreaking began on the new center, Albertsons imeadiatly folded, and after about a year their new building was sold for pennies on the dollar.
The small IGA store owned by a local couple struggled for about a year, and they had to declare bankruptcy. Lost their family's farm....everything.
Price cutter went through about 1 year of "gost-town" syndrome before people began to come back.
Wall Mart sold gas 4-5 cents under every other station in town. Two locally owned stations had to close. One used to keep their prices 2 cents higher than others, but offered full service...check the oil, clean the windows..check your tires..just like in the old days.
Their food was fantastic, and lower priced. Their meat was some of the best. They ran our little local butcher out of business who had been here all of his life, and had taken over the business from his father. Gone are our 8oz fillets for $1.99 that you could cut with a fork, and the fresh hand carved cuts of meat.
Well, fast forward to 3 years of Wally-World. Their meat Sucks now.
The good quality lasted just long enough to run the competition out of business. Vegies have gone the same way.
I finally told my wife not to buy any more of their meat. I've taken pieces of meat back because it was so bad that you couldn't chew a 10-12 dollar steak. Sorry, but it's going back. I've written to Bentonville on 3 occasions about this, and have yet to receive a reply.
I too think something needs to be done about them. Not only have they taken away our good quality local food, but now they are selling us pure garbage at high prices because there is no compitition. We now have nowhere to buy quality even if we prefer to pay more. Sam Walton is turning in his grave...I'm sure.
Ken F

AzDon

02-01-2004, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by MagicMtnDan
I want the flow of jobs leaving this country to stop. But it should not, cannot, and must not be stopped by legislation!
Dan- This is the kind of response that I expect from Free-trade, liberatarian minded peeps, and oddly I kind of agree... Sort of!
It's a fact that our elected officials enter office with somebody's agenda tucked under their arms, fully intending to make that agenda a reality using the vehicle (the government) that we all pay for collectively. You could call just about any kind of redistribution of government funds "welfare", including those which pass to megabuck special interests (corporate welfare)
Anyway, back to the subject of exporting jobs.... I also believe that stopping the outbound flow of jobs through legislation is a little like denying gravity when building a sewer.... EXCEPT THAT... Our tax laws encourage companies to relocate manufacturing out of the country, AND THAT's JUST WRONG!!
We need the tax incentives to encourage these companies to stay or relocate HERE! and we need to severely punish foriegn products when they enter our country, since we have lost our nationalistic pride in our preference for a product's "country of origin". If we are unable to restrain ourselves from buying cheap foriegn products that damage our country's job prospects, I don't believe that it's too much to ask our elected officials to level the playing field for us! I have nothing against any country developing their industries and attempting to better themselves, but I do have a problem with them dumping their cheap-ass products on our doorstep without paying a fair royalty for the damage these products do our economy. Access to our market has a value, and we should be milking this value for all it's worth!
Anybody who's read my stuff knows that I couldn't vote for the corporate welfare, deficit spending agenda of the "election thief" that currently is squatting in the White House. I'm glad that Dean seems to have fallen away, because I would have a hard time voting for him, as well! I'd really like to see a new party emerge that is socially and ecologically responsible, yet makes sure that every program it promotes is economically sensible, as well. It would be a populist powerhouse of a party that would align it's agenda with those issues that would restore the middle-class to it's former greatness by working for the folks that report to a job every day and pay a substantial portion of their wages in taxes.
I think a good name would be "The Common Sense Party"... After all, who would argue against common sense?

mickeyfinn

02-01-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:
I'd really like to see a new party emerge that is socially and ecologically responsible, yet makes sure that every program it promotes is economically sensible, as well. It would be a populist powerhouse of a party that would align it's agenda with those issues that would restore the middle-class to it's former greatness by working the folks that report to a job every day and pay a substantial portion of their wages in taxes.
I do believe you are starting to sound like a libertarian. My solution will not ever happen at least not in our lifetime but I would still propose that we switch to a true popular election and instead of having to vote for one candidate make everyone do a "forced ranking" of the candidates. This would allow people who would like to vote for an emerging party but vote for one of the two established ones because of concern that the emerging party not being truly viable to vote for the emerging party. Then if that party was truly not viable essentially their vote would count for their second choice. The easiest way to explain it is that if there are 3 candidates on the ballot then everyone will have to rank them 1,2 or 3. At the end of the election you simply add up the rankings for each candidate and the lowest number wins. This would unfortunately eliminate the write in vote which is useless anyway.
The second major change I would like to see is the national retail sales tax...

wsuwrhr

02-01-2004, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by AzDon
we need to severely punish foriegn products when they enter our country, since we have lost our nationalistic pride in our preference for a product's "country of origin". If we are unable to restrain ourselves from buying cheap foriegn products that damage our country's job prospects,
This is what I am saying, it is the biggest problem. We think we are getting a deal saving a few bucks. In the long term we are hurting ourselves.
Foreign countries don't want our products, they make them cheaper.
Check out my signature.
Brian

AzDon

02-01-2004, 07:41 PM

I'm not libertarian in the sense that would require me to believe that the government has no obligation to provide sensible social engineering services and economic security insurances. While we DID have a golden age of industrialization for over 100 years preceding 1929, working class society was held in a kind of economic slavery by the fact that everyone was on their own. Corporate America and the big money folks turned their backs on America's working folks at the beginning of the depression because the banks had stolen the money and left folks destitute and therefore, useless as consumers. The millionaire industrialists that still had funds DID NOT increase production or hire people, because there was NO MARKET for products.
FDIC, Social Security, unemployment insurance, disability, OSHA, and the numerous work project programs were concieved in response to the cold-hearted free market. The Government's blessing for unionization also gained momentum during this period. There is a lot that can be learned from the blue-collar tribulations of the great depression, and we'd be irresponsible to believe that a lot of the negative consequences couldn't return if we mismanage our birthright!

Duck

02-01-2004, 08:02 PM

Did nobody see it all comming with the flag waving "Made in the USA" ads years ago, while mills they were using had to close because offshore labor, and they get away with it. Enough has been said, just had to voice my hate for them too.

THOR

02-01-2004, 08:11 PM

Don,
OSHA was not conceived by the free market you freak. God, where do you get this shit.

AzDon

02-02-2004, 06:41 PM

Thor-
You need to go back and read what I said more carefully before misquoting it!

AzDon

02-02-2004, 08:06 PM

The L.A. Times business section had a very good article today regarding a flawed study about Wal-Mart financed by (surprise!) Wal-Mart!
The section of the article discussing health-care benefits illustrates perfectly what I've been saying about cheap jobs--that being that the living wage job of another family member subsidizes a civilized lifestyle for the underpaid worker. This is what was said about Wal-Mart's health benefits:
" The company's claim to provide health benefits also deserves greater scrutiny. Although the LAEDC study notes that Wal-Mart provides employees with health insurance, it doesn't explore the implications of how it does so. As this column has pointed out in the past, not only do Wal-Mart's employees pay a larger share of their health insurance premiums than the average worker nationwide, but the company also excludes coverage of many routine medical services, such as contraceptives and child vaccinations. Instead, Wal-Mart focuses on covering "catastrophic" needs as cancer treatment and organ transplants. This allows the company to release gaudy numbers to make itself seem softhearted, such as by noting that it pays for 60 transplants a year at 1 mil each. But these are obviously rare events- 60 transplants patients would be the equivalent of just over one-hundredth of 1% of Wal-Mart's 500,000 insured employees, for example.
What happens when the child of a WM employee on an hourly wage needs a shot for measles, chickenpox, or the flu? The worker faces the choice of shelling out, say, $75 to get the shot at a private clinic (that's more than a day's pay for many of the workers) or going to a public, tax-supported clinic, which means we all pay, or trusting to luck that the child won't get sick, which would force the employee to stay home for a couple of days, losing more pay.
Wal-Mart freely, even boastfully acknowledges that as many as 40% of it's employees get their health coverage elsewhere, such as the employers of spouses or parents or from programs like Medi-Cal and Medicare. This is community-mindedness the Wal-Mart way: Stick the other guy with the responsibility for your own workforce. Wal-Mart ruthlessly prices it's health coverage to discourage employees from placing their own spouses and children on it's plans, but it's not above pushing it's own workers on other companies. Then it argues smugly that it's competitors are only whining because they don't know how to cut costs as efficientlt as it (WM) does.

MagicMtnDan

02-03-2004, 06:03 AM

LOS ANGELES - This city is on the verge of telling the nation's largest retailer to get lost.
In a show of hostility toward a company promising to bring hundreds of jobs and rock-bottom consumer prices to poor, blighted neighborhoods, the Los Angeles City Council this month may ban Wal-Mart from opening its popular "supercenters," sprawling new stores that sell discount groceries along with many other bargain goods.
No other city so big has ever taken on the retailer, which has been facing growing resistance in smaller communities around the country to both the size and the business tactics of its rapidly expanding chain of more than 2,900 stores.
And, unlike other places in conflict with Wal-Mart and other "big box" national retailers, Los Angeles is hardly trying to save its small-town charms. With nearly 4 million people and roads choked with traffic, it has none.
Read the rest of the story here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4143316/)

THOR

02-03-2004, 07:53 AM

AzDon,
You are right, I misread your post, completely. My bad. ;)

AzDon

02-03-2004, 08:22 AM

Rather, city leaders here say they fear the arrival of the retailer's biggest stores would drive down local wages, as rival businesses struggle to survive; wipe out more jobs than they create; and leave more residents without health insurance -- and with no choice but to use public hospitals and clinics that are already overrun by demand.
"They're a goliath, but we're a goliath, too -- and we want to send them a message," said Eric Garcetti, the Los Angeles councilman proposing the restrictions against the retailer, which appear to have strong council support. "We don't believe their business model is good for the kind of economic development that we want in the places where we need it most. And we want people to realize that the 10 cents they may save on a jar of pickles could mean paying another $5 in taxes for all the extra visits to local emergency rooms."
But that contention, along with many others in the fight over Wal-Mart's supercenters, is in dispute. A study commissioned last year by the city of Los Angeles concluded that the arrival of such mega-stores would result in net loss of jobs and force other employers to lower wages. It recommended approving restrictions on big-box retailers.
A few excerpts from the article that MMD was so gracious to share with us!
And to Thor-
If caring about the economic plight of my fellow citizens makes me a freak... Then I wear the label proudly!

JakeAisA

02-03-2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Sorry Clay...but you're kinda wrong.
Capitalism cannot run unchecked in a free market economy without checks and balances (laws like Robinson Patman).
For example, let's say there's this really big company...we'll call them "BallMart". Now BallMart started as a small retailer in Fontana...but has grown into the second largest ball retailer in the world.
Now this BallMart is so big, it can come into a market, and undercut the competition by selling balls for less than everyone else. They claim that it is their "buying power"...but the reality is that it's dead-net pricing from it's vendors (and overseas purchasing) does not support it's claim...so they are selling at a loss to put the competition out of business.
Once the competition is out of business, BallMart then raises prices, and controls retail pricing throughout that ball market. That market is no longer a free market.
The FTC also prevents this sort of monopoly...by monitoring marketshare and approving aquisitions.
So I guess we don't live in a true capitalistic society. Shocking, I know.
All of your assumptions are false.
1. A monopoly is only possible with "police power".
Only government can create monopolies. So long as competitors are free to enter and exit a market, no one can have a monopoly. Just because you're good at something, doesn't make you a monopoly. If a company looses money to gain market share, what do you care? If they gain market share by offering value to customers (and yes, they are creating value for customers...otherwise the customers wouldn't be trading with them) and then they try to increase prices after they have the market share, it takes "police power" from government to stop the entrance of a new competitor. Wal-Mart's profits or losses are none of your business. The ability of a less efficient competitors are none of your business. Any intervention by government is fascist and destructive. When government intervenes they destroy value, they prop up poor competitors and the result is inflation and stagnancy. Any company that gains market share and then thinks they can "screw" thier customers (as you would probably put it) is vunerable to attack--so long as government isn't there to protect them.
2. The FTC doesn't prevent monopolies because they monopolies cannot exist without government intervention. They do prevent flexibility in the market place by preventing the consolidation of poor companies and the growth of good companies. They play favorites and they usually take the side of the poor business models over the good. This, again, causes inflation, inneficiency and stagnancy.
3. There is no right to life for a business. The name of the game is competition. If you cannot compete, too bad. If you cannot supply a demand as well as the next guy, too bad. And if you're good at what you do, then you better continue to do it becuase so long as entry to competition is free, you're open to competition the minute you slack off.

eliminatedsprinter

02-03-2004, 09:55 AM

I reciently heard a man who is a pharmacist for walmart being interviewed. He said they had jobs for a wide variety of skill and professional levels and that for many of them (his included) the pay was quite good. He also said that their beifits packages were good and available to all employees at all levels. He basically indicated that it was pretty unfair for the media and the political left to judge them based on the claims of their competitors and the wages that they pay only to their most unskilled workers.

JakeAisA

02-03-2004, 10:23 AM

Rio Dog:
You dont understand the basic tenets of trade. Two parties only trade when its in their best interests, individually (assuming the absence of coercionmeaning theyre free to trade or not, without a gun to their head dictating the terms, literally). This means that both parties must profit from the trade in order for it to make sensein terms of value (money and utility). When we buy goods from other countries, we do it because its in our interest, we are better off after the trade, we have profited. When we buy goods from Japan, US dollars are being shipped in return for goods, and the value of those goods is worth more then the dollars we traded away. The proof is that we wouldnt have made the trade at all if the goods were worth less then the dollars. So youre flat wrong when you say:
When we buy products that are manufactured elsewhere then that money goes to support that economy and does nothing to help our own economy except make a very few people very wealthy. Basically what this means is that we are subsidizing the rest of the world at the expense of us.
The way this country is regulating business at the present the half dozen or so Waltons are getting richer at the expense of HOW MANY OTHERS!
What are you talking about? People are buying goods for less, Wal-Mart is trading with tons of people at the same time, all parties are profiting, youre probably just bitter that somebody, or some company, is really, really good at it.
-it's helped cripple our economy to the point that our own hard working people are being denied things and services that shouldn't be denied
Explain? Crippled? How? I dont see a crippled economy here. And oh, by the way, were not socialist or fascistthe government exists to protect us and settle disputes, not provide things and services. Those things and services are a 20th Century invention. We flourished in the first 150 years of this country without your socialist things and services.
Living wage What do you mean by a living wage? Ive been hearing liberals talk about a living wage for a long time. What is it? Is it $10 an hour? $15? $25? Why dont we make it an even $100,000 per year? Thats what I propose. I mean, if you cant see that minimum wage and your living wage causes inflation and unemployment, can you see it if your living wage were set at $100,000 per year for bagging groceries? How about $1 million? Give me a break.
HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER DONE ANY BUSINESS WITH THE WALTONS AND BENEFITTED FROM ALL OF THE MONEY THAT THEY'VE TAKEN OUT OF THE ECONOMY?
What does this mean? This doesnt make sense at all.
We need to change our constitution
YUP, THERE IT IS! Lets model it after your favorite socialist or fascist dream? The Soviet Union, France, Canada, Nazi Germany? Take your pick? Im sure one of them is preferred by you then our capitalist pig system here, right?
change our import and export laws and tariffs
Hey, a serious question for you. You obviously mean that we should make it harder for the Wal-Marts to trade with foreign companies and you want to stop the importing of products here. You obviously think this would benefit our economy. Okay, having said that, why do you think we impose embargos on countries like Cuba and Iraq if its beneficial to their economies? Huh? We, by force, have closed Cuba and Pre-War Iraq to international trade to PUNISH AND HURT THEMright? Why do you think a self-imposed embargo on America would all of a sudden switch to a positive thing? Its not. Youre proposing an embargo to help us when its been used as destructive weapon for all of mans history. Dont be naïve.
One of our first major mistakes was allowing our maufacturing and industrial businesses to leave our shores as this has had a drastic effect on our economy.
How?
If you ain't 100% pro USA-You're the enemy!
Change the Constitution? Impose an Embargo on ourselves? Living Wage? Things and Services? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HighRoller

02-03-2004, 10:26 AM

My question is this: Since when is it an employee's RIGHT to have any benefits? Employees should be grateful for ANY benefits they get, hence the word BENEFITS. If they don't like the store, don't work there. If Wal-Mart is so bad why do people shop there or work there? To say that you can fix the problem by just refusing to let them into a city is ridiculous, and sets a very dangerous precedent. No doubt the liberal members of the city council have taken considerable donations from unions, so they'll always be against competition of any kind. Unions can't exist without protection.

BUSTI

02-03-2004, 12:14 PM

Actually I am very happy for LA! Great decision for all the surriunding cities. Look I am so happy that LA businesses will have to pay more in wages and benifits to their employees. i am so happy that LA residents won't be able to take advantage of the real value other Walmart shoppers in other cities can now take advantage of by shopping at Walmart. Also I am so happy for the people that want work in LA that now will have to drive to another city to get at that other cities Walmart)or not get work at all). Yeah I am happy for all the sales tax revenue that the city of LA won't get as a result of ALLOWING Walmart into its city.
I am very excited that some other city will get all the benifits of having such a great Success oriented company in their city other than LA.
Look at it this way: when the average guy on the street has to spend less for school supples, clothes for his kids, less for food, less for his pharmacy needs, less for his household supplies like laundry soap ect., ect., ect., he saves money for such things as buying concrete to improve his property, or he has more disposable income to take his kids to the show and out for dinner, or maybe just maybe he he has more money to save for his 401k. Or God forbid he moght just have more money to buy his family life insurance protection, or even maybe he just might be able to now pay for his kid to have a computer at home!
Who the hell do you think benifits the most from a large effecient retailer passing on great low prices to its customers? Both the company and the people who trade with the company. When ever government restricts trade both the industry it restricts and the people who trade with that industry suffer!
Those of you that are a proponent of kicking walmart in the teeth and restricting their growth are hypocrits! You rail against Walmart and the big bad capitalist bully you think that it is........yet you would never tolerate the very thing you are fighting for in the walmart issue lets say in the boating business!
Yeah thats right..whe here on these boards really wants to do business with a boat builder isn't very good at delivering a good boat at a fair price! Every body on these boards including you colectivists that hate Walmart believe that the baot mfg. you buy your boat from better deliver the best product for the lowest price providing you with the best value or YOU WON'T BUY FROM THAT BOAT COMPANY! Why would you have a different attitude about Walmart? Because you are hypocrits or you haven't truely thought your position through. None of you are advocates of gov't. intervention to protect Mercury Marine...or are you? If Mercury can't cut it and Volvo Penta had a more durable and faster outdrive engine combo available for hiperformance use you'd buy it. And you would rail against the government if they tried to coerce you into biying an inferior outdrive from Mercury just to keep them in business..wouldn't you?
Please preach what you pratice and stop being hypocrits! In bisiness the free market system always produces a better product from the best company ant the best prices! Most of you making this walmart arguement are just saying it because it sounds good not because you actually believ it. You hypocrits would never buy a re car that way you don't buy insurance that way and you don't buy your boats that way. Then why do you support decisions that restrict the average guy on the street having the freedom from buying his kids clothes from Walmart with the same freedom you buy all your shit! Best price for the best product you can get? Right? Stop talking shit or if you really believ that crap you are spewing then start praticing it the next time you go to buy a boat!

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 01:35 PM

Dude you really need to step back and take a look around. I dont shop there and wont. I heard on the way home today that walmart is the second biggest campain contrubutor. So keep shipping those jobs overseas and having the politians sucking your dick walmart. cudos to you.

JakeAisA

02-03-2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Blown 472
Dude you really need to step back and take a look around. I dont shop there and wont. I heard on the way home today that walmart is the second biggest campain contrubutor. So keep shipping those jobs overseas and having the politians sucking your dick walmart. cudos to you.
Yeah, and do you know who they give most of thier money to? That's right! Demo-Rats! Probably becuase they fear Democrats who want to socialize thier business, regulate them, etc...you know, fascists.
Actually, big business gives more to Democrats then they do Republicans...look at John Kerry's donations list compared to Bush's.
And oh yeah, does anybody remember that Hillary Clinton sits on the Board of Directors of Wal-Mart?
There's no doubt that Wal-Mart engages in the Political money game, both federal and local. But our government is set up that way. FDR gave power to the government to regulate business. That meant that politicians were given certain powers to tell the private sector what to do, how to do it, and who gets to do it. It's the essentials of fascism and you have to spend money to protect yourself from other companies who will spend money to destroy you, through political power brokering.
That's the country you guys want and so thats how the game is played. Thank Leftism for that, not capitalism. Companies wouldn't give money to politicians if politicians didn't have the power to destroy businesses...true capitalism would have companies fighting for customers, not politicians.

totenhosen

02-03-2004, 01:46 PM

To all you guys that think WalMart is so great talk to American companies that have done business. The first year the company is happy because they just increase their sales by x percent. Next year WalMart says we will only buy your product and a much lower reduce price thus driving down the company's gross margins. Eventually Walmart buries them. I've had to send several large business loans over $2MM to work-out (Collections) because of Walmart.

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by totenhosen
To all you guys that think WalMart is so great talk to American companies that have done business. The first year the company is happy because they just increase their sales by x percent. Next year WalMart says we will only buy your product and a much lower reduce price thus driving down the company's gross margins. Eventually Walmart buries them. I've had to send several large business loans over $2MM to work-out (Collections) because of Walmart.
Presto products.

BUSTI

02-03-2004, 02:57 PM

All you Walmart haters, please answer my question as simply and quickly as you can with out a leftist diatribe.....what is wrong with people buying the most and best products for their money at the lowest cost? How is that bad for the economy? Regardless of where the products come from?
Thank God you don't run my business cuz if you did I'd be out of business or at best be crying to the government to help me stay in business inspite of your ineptitude!

totenhosen

02-03-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by BUSTI
All you Walmart haters, please answer my question as simply and quickly as you can with out a leftist diatribe.....what is wrong with people buying the most and best products for their money at the lowest cost? How is that bad for the economy? Regardless of where the products come from?
Thank God you don't run my business cuz if you did I'd be out of business or at best be crying to the government to help me stay in business inspite of your ineptitude!
Seeing that you are in real estate lets put it this way. Say Walmart now wants to act as real estate agents and brokers. (Hell who knows they might actually do this because there is a lot of fat to be trimmed in the whole real estate game.) Walmart proposes to do the exact same job as you but at a 2% commission or a falt fee of say $3000. In the end everyone uses Walmart because they are tired of paying 4-6% commissions and yet they provide the same service as you. After they run you out of business and all other realtors in the area they will know raise their commissions and have a lower quality service than the one you formerly provided.
Hey maybe you'll be lucky and will be able to land a job at Walmart real estate for $12 an hour.

SHOTKALLIN

02-03-2004, 04:02 PM

I think Walmart is a great store. Many are open 24 hrs. and they carry alot of basic everyday stuff. They employ ALOT of Americans who would be unemployed and or on welfare living off of my hard earned tax dollars. Those of you who hate Walmart, don't shop there. Plain and simple. The best protest is not to give them ANYyour business. As far as the mom and pop businesses... its sad, Maybe its time for them to relocate or reinvent the wheel. fine tune or think up a better business. Walmart sells basic shit. they don't sell anything high end or top shelf. Hell, they don't even deliver. I think I could compete if I were forced to.

77charger

02-03-2004, 04:06 PM

As long as there are cheap people wal marts will exist.I see and hear so many people complain about what someone else pays for something all the time or doesnt want to pay what the store down the street wants pricewise.How much worse is walmart than purchasing something online to save a few bucks?There is no difference the small store still loses out as well as local business.Some of my hobbies i still go to a store that specializes in what i am doing esp firearms.When i buy auto parts i will go to the local napa since they have what i am looking for in stock(at this point price is of no concern,etc.I do go to walmart if i need to get fishing tackle reason -they have a larger selection
Besides if i have to go to a walmart i hate to do so main reason is THE FUKIN LINES.

mirvin

02-03-2004, 04:11 PM

I've never been to Wallmart.
Mirvin;)

JakeAisA

02-03-2004, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by totenhosen
Seeing that you are in real estate lets put it this way. Say Walmart now wants to act as real estate agents and brokers. (Hell who knows they might actually do this because there is a lot of fat to be trimmed in the whole real estate game.) Walmart proposes to do the exact same job as you but at a 2% commission or a falt fee of say $3000. In the end everyone uses Walmart because they are tired of paying 4-6% commissions and yet they provide the same service as you. After they run you out of business and all other realtors in the area they will know raise their commissions and have a lower quality service than the one you formerly provided.
Hey maybe you'll be lucky and will be able to land a job at Walmart real estate for $12 an hour.
I'm a Real Estate broker and I would welcome the competition. If I can't compete, I won't ask the government to use force to protect my business. If I cannot compete, I'm confident I can find something else to do. I won't ask YOU or anyone else to sacrifice anything for my business. My job is to offer value in return for payment in dollars. I won't ask for the government to pick winners and losers--that's immoral and it's devastating to the economy.
Would you do the same?
I've made a lot of money in the mortgage business over the past two years offering value to my customers. I compete with big companies already that have the police power they've purchased from government you're describing...and I still competed. When interest rates jumped up five months ago, I didn't ask government to intervene in the market. I didn't ask government to prevent the larger companies from competing against me.
Would you have done the same?
Personally, I don't support fascism.

totenhosen

02-03-2004, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
I'm a Real Estate broker and I would welcome the competition. If I can't compete, I won't ask the government to use force to protect my business. If I cannot compete, I'm confident I can find something else to do. I won't ask YOU or anyone else to sacrifice anything for my business. My job is to offer value in return for payment in dollars. I won't ask for the government to pick winners and losers--that's immoral and it's devastating to the economy.
Would you do the same?
I've made a lot of money in the mortgage business over the past two years offering value to my customers. I compete with big companies already that have the police power they've purchased from government you're describing...and I still competed. When interest rates jumped up five months ago, I didn't ask government to intervene in the market. I didn't ask government to prevent the larger companies from competing against me.
Would you have done the same?
Personally, I don't support fascism.
Funny statement coming from someone that works in an industry that acts like its the AMA, maintains a monopolistic type hold, is so heavily against change/reform and is way overpaid. (This is coming from a person who has his realtors license and does quite well with it)
We'll see if you are singing the same tune when it becomes reality. People are slowly starting to wise up and to sell with companies that charge a flat fee like Help-U-Sell or even to do FSBO. Realtors of all people should worry because the job is way overpaid, doesn't require much smarts and people are figuring out a way around the monolopy of realtors.

mickeyfinn

02-03-2004, 05:15 PM

This is another arguement that no one will win. One group is going to believe they are right and another will always believe they are right. Personally I think they should be seen as any other company and forced to play by the same rules. The biggest problem I have is that in many small towns and counties they will find property they wish to purchase to build a new store. When 1 or 2 PRIVATE land owners do not wish to sell their property to them they go to the elected officials and proclaim that if they will excersise their right of imminent domain for the welfare of the community and take the property from a PRIVATE VOTING CITIZEN and give it to them the town will benefit from huge sales tax, property tax etc. This is what is wrong with the picture from my view. Most places that walmart is trying to locate stores and having problems are places where the people don't want them and the elected officials will usually cave and excersise their right of THEFT to allow them to build. Put them on even field with every other business and make them cough up the cash to make the offer that people don't want or can't afford refuse and they may not be so quick to force there way in.

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 06:04 PM

BUSTI

02-03-2004, 07:34 PM

BLOWN
No you don't understand me! Where did you get that I said it is ok to screw people over for money. Pay attention blown...best products at the best prices helps everybody! if walmarts competitiors are weak and can't cut it they deserve to go out of business! That is the way the world works. Do the job or lose the job. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Toten,
I ahve been competing against discount brokerage houses for 24 years and I am still here. Why because I provide real value to my customers. My customers know I am not the cheapest at what I do however many of them think I am the best at what I do! At our company we have several divisions the first is a residential mortgage company broker operation and we charge a fair wage for what we do we are not the cheapest on rates or points ...however we are the fastest loan processors our clients tell us.
We close millions of dollars per year of these loans and 20 percent of our volume are repeat customers. We are located in Orange County California where there are more companies lic. to sell mortagges than they are selling mortgages in the entire state of Texas. Why do our custoners come back? Because we provide them with real value. My customers define value as the difference between what they pay for something and what it is worth to them. We get the job done fast and usually at a very good price with little or no hassel to them. But here is the real reason we have millions od dollars of repeat customers....are you ready for this .... WE SAY WHAT WE MEAN AND DO WHAT WE SAY!!
Our integrity is our hallmark! Our customers know that if we say we can do the job and disclose what their terms and conditions are up front that they KNOW there won't be any surprises for them when they close their deal! For that peace of mine and trust my clients pay me more than average mortgage broker. And we exist under the very shadow of the DiTech Funding building off the 405. We have to compete with all their giant advertising schemes along with all the other discount mortgage companies who would like to put small companies like mine out of business AND WE ARE STILL HERE! So if Walmart wants to get into the mortgage business..bring them on if I can compete against the Ditech fundings of the world, which is owned by GMAC by the way, I can assure you I am not afraid of Sam Walton.
We also have a thriving commercial division for hard to place loans from 150k to 2 million. Very hard to place such loans and the big boys have all but abondoned this market to the samll companies that are quick to respond to the needs of the small businessman. The work is the same to get a small commercial loan down than a big one but the margins arenarrower because the loans are smaller. So we charge a lot...the customer is happy and most of business is referal business from happy repeat customers. We haven't lost a commercial loan to a big company that may be cheaper because their service sucks!
Now Toten
related to your closing comments that realtors charge to much and the smart customers know that and are going to such companies that discount heavily such as Help u Sell. Let me say this..in most cases the average real estate agent probably charges to much for listing a property for sale. especially when it comes to comparing those RE agents to cheap companies like Help u Sell. I will explain to why my customers are not the dumb shits that fall for the Help u Sell bullshit. My customers are interested in real value. Check my definition above for what real value is and maybe this will become more apparent to you.
The average sale commision in OC is 4.5 to 5 percent. We sell a lot of real estate at our sales division. Guess what our average listing commission is?...........
ITS 6 TO 6.5 PERCENT! WHY DO YOU ASK? ARE MY CLIENTS STUPID? ARE WE SCREWING THEM OVER AS BLOWN IMPLIES ITS OK TO DO?
NO we can demonstrate to them clearly with facts and figures that we can help them get a high top cash price for their homes than they could get than buy using some other discount broker who is at 3 percent total or a bullshit flat rate. How do you ask can i motivate homeowners to list with our company for more gross commissions resulting on average 12 to 20 thousand more in costs..because we are better salesman and provide high prices on average for our customers. Here is just one part of the selling secret. I assume you know how brokers get paid. On a 3 percent listing the guy who lists the deal gets 1.5 percent and the guy who finds the buyer gets the other 1.5 percent. On a 600k sale thats 9,000 to each side. The seller gets the difference less other costs but in this example they get 582,000 after commissions.Follow me so far. Thats what Asst to Sell and the other discount listing companies do.
Now here is why we kick their asses all day long. rarely does the agent that lists the property , sells the property. usually he or she lists it and then relies on other agents to sell it for them and bring them a buyer. Now we list the same house property or similiar for 635,000 we get the buyer to pay a 6.5 percent commission. We dont split it with the other agent who brings us the buyer ...WE GIVE HIM 4 PERCENT! OR HE MAKES 25,400 COMMISSIONS FOR DOING THE SAME JOB HE GETS PAID ONLY 9,000 ON IF HE SELLS HIS BUYER A HELP U SELL CHEAP ASS LISTING! If you were a competitive sales agent in my market whose listing would you show first my deal where you are going to make 25 THOUSAND DOLLARS or the bullshit to sell discount broker? I will tell you you are going to show my property first because I am willing to pay you more than the bullshit to sell agent is. Follow me so far?
The homeowner actualy gets more in his pocket by paying more commissions. With me he gets 593,725 dollars for his house after commissions and with the bullshit to sell agent he only nets after commissions 582,000. Nearly 12,000 more for him and his family. And who really pays the added commissions? THE BUYER DOES! and with our company if the agent that gives us the buyer and the buyers loan we do the buyers loan for free! we can afford to do it because we make 15,875 on the sale which is a hell of a lot more than the 9,000 dollars if we would have listed the property like the bullshit to sell agent would have.
Cheaper price doesn't always mean value. Remember value is the difference between waht you pay for something and whats it is worth.
So lets get it straight...I am successful because I offer my clients real value...I am better than the competition I earn every dime I make by beating the competition not because some government ageny helps me win by restricting trade and competition. Of course the exaple is a little more detailed than just price...my business is simple but not easy. I KICK THE SHIT OUT OF THE COMPETITION BECAUSE WE ARE SMARTER, TOUGHER, MORE WELL TRAINED AND MORE HONEST THAN COMPETITION. SO IS WALMART.
PEOPLE LIKE YOU GUYS HURT BUSINESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 07:49 PM

Busti have you read any of this??
Best products, you know what the bags they make in china are shit plain and simple but some dumb **** podunk doesn't care if half the bags leak long as he gets them cheap.
We hurt bidness, you have any idea how the ripple effect hurts where you live??

BUSTI

02-03-2004, 08:28 PM

Blown,
Ya I know what the ripple effect is of the way i do business. Property values go up both for the seller and the buyer. Especially for the homeowners in the neighborhood who don't sell. Because of what we do their homes are now worth more. And the seller who is going some where else now has more money in his pocket to go do more for his family. Since my agents usually live near where they work they now have more money in their pockets to buy things for their families and just maybe improve their properties making their neighborhoods more valuable. Or maybe they have more commissions to spend at their local stores and retailers strengthing their local economy..but we know they won't likely do it at Walmart if it is left up to you!
Walmart isn't for every body if you don't like walmart stay the fuch out of Walmart! it is your freedom to do so. But where do you think Walmart gets all their shoppers? Think they gather them up at the point of a gun and force them to shop at Walmart?
Hell no! they go there exercising their own free will to spend their moneyas they see fit. Who the hell are you people like the LA city council types to restrict their right to get the best deal for their money...after all its their money!
If your arguement is that their plastic bags suck......oh my you are more screwed up on this issue than I could possibly imagine.
Blown to you vote? If you don't I thank God you don't! If you do please do the rest of us a favor AND STOP!
iN FACT THERE SHOULD BE A MEANS TEST FOR VOTING. THERE NEVER WILL BE AND LUCKY FOR YOU THERE WON'T BE ...BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T PASS IT!

Dr. Eagle

02-03-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by HighRoller
My question is this: Since when is it an employee's RIGHT to have any benefits? Employees should be grateful for ANY benefits they get, hence the word BENEFITS. If they don't like the store, don't work there. If Wal-Mart is so bad why do people shop there or work there? To say that you can fix the problem by just refusing to let them into a city is ridiculous, and sets a very dangerous precedent. No doubt the liberal members of the city council have taken considerable donations from unions, so they'll always be against competition of any kind. Unions can't exist without protection.
God damn it! with that Avatar... I keep reading your posts just like Cartman would say them in my head... Screw you guys I'm going home...;)
oh and "no comment" on the U word...

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by BUSTI
Blown,
Ya I know what the ripple effect is of the way i do business. Property values go up both for the seller and the buyer. Especially for the homeowners in the neighborhood who don't sell. Because of what we do their homes are now worth more. And the seller who is going some where else now has more money in his pocket to go do more for his family. Since my agents usually live near where they work they now have more money in their pockets to buy things for their families and just maybe improve their properties making their neighborhoods more valuable. Or maybe they have more commissions to spend at their local stores and retailers strengthing their local economy..but we know they won't likely do it at Walmart if it is left up to you!
Walmart isn't for every body if you don't like walmart stay the fuch out of Walmart! it is your freedom to do so. But where do you think Walmart gets all their shoppers? Think they gather them up at the point of a gun and force them to shop at Walmart?
Hell no! they go there exercising their own free will to spend their moneyas they see fit. Who the hell are you people like the LA city council types to restrict their right to get the best deal for their money...after all its their money!
If your arguement is that their plastic bags suck......oh my you are more screwed up on this issue than I could possibly imagine.
Blown to you vote? If you don't I thank God you don't! If you do please do the rest of us a favor AND STOP!
iN FACT THERE SHOULD BE A MEANS TEST FOR VOTING. THERE NEVER WILL BE AND LUCKY FOR YOU THERE WON'T BE ...BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T PASS IT!
I used to work for a place that made plastic bags, walmart bought from us, life was peachy, now they find these crappy bags made in china and come back to us and say that unless we lower the price to match the china bags they wont buy from us, so what do we have to do?? make or buy bags from china to compete, thus putting people out of bidness and jobs all for what??corp greed.
Now you are saying I am stupid??

BUSTI

02-03-2004, 08:51 PM

I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING OF THE KIND...JUST FOR PETES SAKE DON'T VOTE THATS ALL!
WELL bLOWN ITS BEEN FUN TALKIN TO YA I HAVE LEAVE THE OFFICE NOW. BE WELL AND SEE MANANA!

Blown 472

02-03-2004, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by BUSTI
I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING OF THE KIND...JUST FOR PETES SAKE DON'T VOTE THATS ALL!
WELL bLOWN ITS BEEN FUN TALKIN TO YA I HAVE LEAVE THE OFFICE NOW. BE WELL AND SEE MANANA!
I dont vote for the ****s that are selling out our country, talk to you tomorrow.;)

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 08:09 AM

Busti,
the reason why Assist to Sell and Help-U-Sell can't compete with normal realtors because most realtors will refuse to show their clients homes listed by these types of companies. The commission to the realtor isn't worth it comapred to a normal listing and thats why these types of listings sit on the market longer. Realtors despise Assit to Sell etc because they are offer the service for what it trully is worth. The way you talk about giving your clients more money and the buyer paying for it is a crock. Nothing more than typical saleman tactics along the lines of a used car salesmen.
Realtors have placed fear into buyers/sellers that if they stray from traditional way of selling/buying that they'll somehow get screwed. Of course they do this because it's more money in their pocket. There will come a day when people will realize the traditional way of buying/selling real estate is far too costly.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by totenhosen
Funny statement coming from someone that works in an industry that acts like its the AMA, maintains a monopolistic type hold, is so heavily against change/reform and is way overpaid. (This is coming from a person who has his realtors license and does quite well with it)
We'll see if you are singing the same tune when it becomes reality. People are slowly starting to wise up and to sell with companies that charge a flat fee like Help-U-Sell or even to do FSBO. Realtors of all people should worry because the job is way overpaid, doesn't require much smarts and people are figuring out a way around the monolopy of realtors.
A monopolistic type hold? What are you talking about? My company is a small (but highly skilled if you need financing-joke). I have no monopoly whatsoever. My industry has no monopoly. We undercut eachother to death. Real Estate Agents are constantly cutting eachother.
Overpaid? I notice you didn't elaborate. We earn our livings the American way--by taking risk. And risk is not free. For example, in California, if you buy your home and the Seller doesn't disclose something about the property that "may have an effect on value to the buyer" you can sue the seller? This goes for anything, even things the Seller doesn't realize ther are material. For instance, I know a freind who purchased a home where three owners ago they had the pool in the backyard filled in with dirt and covered over with grass. The Seller found out about it from the the neighbor but didn't care becuase he had no plans that would be affected. Well, when that owner became a seller to my freind, he omitted this fact--even though he didn't fill the pool in and he was never informed about it by the seller when he bought the property. Well, guess what, it doesn't matter because that was a material fact that affected value to my freind and this last seller is liable. Also, the real estate agent is liable becuase there's reason to believe he knew about the pool (see, he was the agent in the first transaction too and was related to the seller). Moral of the story?
The moral of the story is that most good agents would have disclosed this information, they would have made sure this disclosed to the borrower so as not to avoid a lawsuit for thier seller or thier broker or risk thier license. They have insurance to cover awards from lawsuits when they've made honest mistakes. And when representing a buyer, many agents woiuld have found out about this situation during the transaction with the proper investigations.
Now, do you think you could handle the risk of being sued or making sure the transaction is completed according to common contract law and the governing statues set forth by the State of California? Did you know that most Sellers involved in lawsuits are "For Sale By Owners"? Transactions where there's no brokers involved at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don't know what you're talking about.
Conversely, do you think Wall Street Investors hand out $250,000 a pop loans to people off the street? Do you think you could even read your own credit package that a lender creates before they issue "Big Greedy Wall Street Fat Cat Money" to you? I doubt it.
We earn our money the hard way--risk. We take risks and we get paid for it. If you want to take the risk on yourself, then sell your own home and don't borrower any money.
...and give up on trying to sound like you know something by saying stupid things like "realtors are overpaid".

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by mickeyfinn
This is another arguement that no one will win. One group is going to believe they are right and another will always believe they are right. Personally I think they should be seen as any other company and forced to play by the same rules. The biggest problem I have is that in many small towns and counties they will find property they wish to purchase to build a new store. When 1 or 2 PRIVATE land owners do not wish to sell their property to them they go to the elected officials and proclaim that if they will excersise their right of imminent domain for the welfare of the community and take the property from a PRIVATE VOTING CITIZEN and give it to them the town will benefit from huge sales tax, property tax etc. This is what is wrong with the picture from my view. Most places that walmart is trying to locate stores and having problems are places where the people don't want them and the elected officials will usually cave and excersise their right of THEFT to allow them to build. Put them on even field with every other business and make them cough up the cash to make the offer that people don't want or can't afford refuse and they may not be so quick to force there way in.
You are absolutely right. Nobody should be given privelages at all, and no one's property use and ownership should be decide on by anyone other then the owner. Eminent Domain is so wrong becuase it violates the meaning of ownership. I mean, do you really own something if the government can come in and take it from you, or force you to sell it?

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Blown 472
So ifin I understand you, it's ok to **** people over for money??
Dude, you're so out of it. What are you talking about? You have no idea what it means to create money. You're thinking like the ancients who beleive that wealth is zero sum, there's only so much of it, and that one acquires it at the expense of someone else. Money is created, value is added. My money is earned at the expense of anyone. One's wealth in a Capitalist system doesn't implie a loser somewhere else who was "screwed"; in fact, it implies the opposite. One's wealth implies you provided value to others who are wealthier themselves after trading with you. This is why our economy grows every year (money is being created) and you don't have a poor population in America to point to that isn't better off then most people of the world? Get a clue.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Blown 472
I used to work for a place that made plastic bags, walmart bought from us, life was peachy, now they find these crappy bags made in china and come back to us and say that unless we lower the price to match the china bags they wont buy from us, so what do we have to do?? make or buy bags from china to compete, thus putting people out of bidness and jobs all for what??corp greed.
Now you are saying I am stupid??
If your industry is passed along by technology, costs, tastes, whatever...find something else to do that is more profitable. I'm sorry you were out competed by foreign company, but you don't have a right make bags for Wal-Mart.
Now, having said that. The US government should not allow Americans to trade with China. China is Communist, which makes them slave owners. The US should not allow it citizens to support the system in China, or any other non-free country, that enslaves its people and keeps them in bondage. Wal-Mart shouldn't be trading with China, we shouldn't be buying anything from China and it hurts me whenever I do find that I've bought a slave produced product from China. This is a far more important issue then whether or not Wal-Mart should be allowed to grow.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by riodog
Blown, You'll never get a word in edgewise with these two! In case you haven't figured it out yet these are professional bullshitters (silver-tongued-salesbeings). Jake put his Daddy in the poor house gettin through school so he could come on here and recite from his textbooks with no reallife experience. I don't know about Busti cuz he's been around a bit longer but you can be damn sure that if they had jobs that could be exported, they'd be singing out the other side of their mouths. Probably never did an honest days work in their lives and they can't spell worth shit either!
I wonder how many full time Slimemart employees they've sold homes to and if these same Slimemart employees would be considered " hard to place" as far as their loans went! LOL
Rio
For everyone else I apolize for the massive amount of posts this morning.
To riodog, though: Thanks for the compliment. You are so unarmed that you only have the ability to respond with personal attacks. Actually, I don't think it's necessarilly a compliment to me, but an admission by you personally that you're intellectually dishonest and inadequate.
I would really love to comment on your personal attacks because it would be fairly embarrasing to you, but I won't.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
...and give up on trying to sound like you know something by saying stupid things like "realtors are overpaid".
As a realtor myself I will say, yes we are overpaid for the amount of risk, hours worked and education needed to become one. Quit acting like realty desrves the respect and pay of professions like a doctor or firefighter. Just admit it isn't that difficult of a job.
What do you call the board of realtors, the MLS system, the DRE, etc? All act like the AMA and the government is jsut as involved in teh regualtion of realtors for the good of the public jsut like the government in some areas is doing with Walmart.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by totenhosen
As a realtor myself I will say, yes we are overpaid for the amount of risk, hours worked and education needed to become one. Quit acting like realty desrves the respect and pay of professions like a doctor or firefighter. Just admit it isn't that difficult of a job.
What do you call the board of realtors, the MLS system, the DRE, etc? All act like the AMA and the government is jsut as involved in teh regualtion of realtors for the good of the public jsut like the government in some areas is doing with Walmart.
You're right about the regulation and the board of realtors. The DRE creates inflation...they give licenses to anybody which is a false credential. The same is true of the boards.
But you're wrong about our industry. We do provide value and I've never seen a stupid person build a large company of any kind in Real Estate or in Finance.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
You're right about the regulation and the board of realtors. The DRE creates inflation...they give licenses to anybody which is a false credential. The same is true of the boards.
But you're wrong about our industry. We do provide value and I've never seen a stupid person build a large company of any kind in Real Estate or in Finance.
JakeAisA,
maybe it's the fact that I have seen a different side of real estate than you have. I've been doing it for a short time. (But I do have a commercial U/W background of 7+ years.) Most of the people I have dealt with that run their own companies do shady stuff and take advantage of people (especially Sub-prime lending).
I like working with the smaller companies because I don't want to work for a large company like Remax etc because of all the obligatins involved in working at such a place. I like working as more of an indepedent and perhaps that is the difference.

NorCal Gameshow

02-04-2004, 11:15 AM

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by totenhosen
JakeAisA,
maybe it's the fact that I have seen a different side of real estate than you have. I've been doing it for a short time. (But I do have a commercial U/W background of 7+ years.) Most of the people I have dealt with that run their own companies do shady stuff and take advantage of people (especially Sub-prime lending).
I like working with the smaller companies because I don't want to work for a large company like Remax etc because of all the obligatins involved in working at such a place. I like working as more of an indepedent and perhaps that is the difference.
There are a lot of shady people real estate, and it's mostly governments fault. It's the same as the medical proffession. When government institutes "minimum standards", those standards become the maximum standards by default. So long as you meet those standards, you're okay! Customers think: well, he's got a license, he's a realtor, that's fine with me. It's like patient/doctor relationships. How many patients ask thier doctors where they went to school? How many patients ask doctors for thier credentials (non-government credentials)? How many customers ask how many homes per month you close? How many customers ask what college you went to? How many customers ask how many years experience you have? They don't ask these question because thse wonderful salesperson's and broker's licenses we have destroy the need for credentials. Your word and your honor mean less and less the more government assumes it for us.

BUSTI

02-04-2004, 02:08 PM

Rio,
If there is aline of bullshit here its yours and it stinks! Most inferior people that can't articulate an educated position refer to those that can as bullshitters. You have no ideas or facts worthy of debate so you reduce your self to a name caller. How pathetic!
Lets get one thing straight ....my son never drove me broke going to college! Any hard times I have had in my life has come as a result of catostrophic illness namely stroke, heart attack and kidney desease. I have survived and prospered because I refused to quit and once my son graduated from USC he joined my business and has made it just explode!
Your bullshit about an honest days work is a reflection of how you think and the contempt you have for very successful self employed people. You are really exhibiting your class envey for those that have iit vs. those that don't! With out ever meeting you i am confident you employ no one, think all rich people were just luckier than you or they obviously just srewed over somebody to get it. It is beyond you to think that maybe in this country people that have a lot of money got it the old fashion way..THEY EARNED IT!
And toten if you think what we do is so unimportant then awnser me this. Next to getting married, having children and picking a career...what is the most important adult decision a family man or woman can make for themselves? BUYING A HOME IS THE ANSWER! Homeownership is single greatest way for average lunch bucket middle class Americans to shelter income bar none! Secondly and especially in California home equity appreciation has had more to do with creating net worth for the average guy on the street than any other decision he could make. How many of you on these boards now have 100,00's of cash equity in a home that you would never have had if oyu didn't own a home?
Toten you are a real estate agent that self loathes his own industry. You don't think you are worth what a doctor makes or like you said some other professional. I have helped 1,000's of people own homes priced right for them and i have helped them buy their homes in neighborhoods that have made them hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. You bet iam worth every dime i earn and even more if i could it!Who do you think impacts more favorably a persons life an attorney or a good realtor that can help you find a home for your family that will grow in value? If you can't answer that question honestly and quickly then PLEASE DO ALL OF US SUCCESSFUL WELL PAID ETHICAL VALUE PROVIDING REALTORS A FAVOR...GET THE HELL OUT OF THE BUSINESS BECAUSE YOU NEITHER UNDERSTAND REAL ESTATE OR I GAURUNTY YOU DO A VERY GOOD JOB FOR YOUR CLIENTS BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ADVOCACY OF WHAT WE DO.
And Toten if you really believe you are over paid for what you do... please tell me how many refunds you issue each year after you close an escrow? How many uh? 20? And how much? Half the commisision? Flat 10,000? And if you don't refund a portion of your full commissions do you just keep them despite the fact you believe HONESTLY(ya right!) you are over paid. And if your answer is you just do it because the money is good even though you believe that you don't really earn it......than what does that make you? Or do you believe YOU earn your money just the other real estate agents don't?
And if you don't believe there is risk in this business let me ask you this. Rae you a broker? do you have 50 employees? Are you at risk from lawsuits at risk for millions of dollars on just one tax exchange involvig 3 or more properties? All based on what you emplouyees either do or worse doesn't do correctly? How much does your errors and emissions insurance cost you for your 50employees annually? Nothing I bet because you don't have 50 employees. And how much is your workmens compensation insurance cost you every month for your 50 employees? NOTHING RIGHT CUZ YOU DON'T HAVE 50 EMPLOYEES!!!!!
Are you starting to get my point? Untill you can tell me you have built a business and you are at risk every day for these types of costs not including you might get sued because one of your employees mishandles a transaction and the state holds you and your broker lic liable plus you are at risk for millions of dollars out of you own pocket...QUITE FRANKLY YOU ARE IN NO Fing POSITION TO HAVE A SERIOUS OPINION IF REAL ESTATE BROKERS ARE OVER PAID!!!!!! oNCE YOU HAVE SPENT A LIFE TIME BUILDING A BUSINESS THAT CLOSES MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF TRANACTIONS PER MONTH AND YOU ARE AT RISK FROM AND DEPENDING HOW YOUR DOZENS OF EMPLOYEES DO THEIR JOBS AND YOU DO THIS AND STILL TURN A PROFIT....WELL THEN CALL ME AND LETS MEET AND LOOK ME IN THE FACE AND TELL ME YOU ARE OVER PAID!
Untill then i really cannot take your opinion that we are over paid very seriously. Oh and to you rio sorry for the typos i was in a hurry and now I must get back to my honest days work ...you bullshitter!

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 02:22 PM

Okay smart guy why don't you tell me what other career you can think of where one can make tons of money and have little to no experience or education beyond taking real estate principals and a few colelge level classes in accounting and finance. Give it up! You are too over paid! Listen I'm not complaining why do you think I jumped into the field because I saw complete idiots making $20-30k a month. And yes they are overpaid.
Like I said earlier there is a lot of fat to be trimmed in the real estate business from the processors (I know processors making $120K a year for what amounts to a clerical job), to agents, & mortgage brokers. Title and escrow are probably the only ones offer fair price. It's funny how you complain about the fat in the grocery stores and yet you aren't willing to look in your own industry.
And you know what yes I have given up commissions before. I've had several first time buyers that were doing zero down and didn't have enough money after the appraisal didn't come in at the right amount and the seller wasn't willing to budge on the price. I made up the difference out of my own pocket.
Realtors and brokers think they aren't overpaid for their services. Again tell me what field one can make as much money w/o certifications and a good deal of education. It is an even bigger rip-off than what cashiers in grocery stores made.

OGShocker

02-04-2004, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by 25 Eagle
Maybe they will go into the boat business. DCB's 1/2 off!
Now that right there is just plain focking funny !:D

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 02:32 PM

Oh yeah to all you realtors etc that don't think you are overpaid for the service you provide why don't we start another thread and ask the opinion of people who aren't involved in the industry what they think.

mickeyfinn

02-04-2004, 02:59 PM

Are realestate agents overpaid???? Depends on how you look at it. Real Estate Agents may get rich during periods when the real estate market is booming. But it is kind of a feast or famine business. When the market goes flat so does their income. I don't know anyone on this board personally nor do I know how old most of you are, but one of the major problems in this country today is that the average person 25 or younger has no idea what it is like to have to live paycheck to paycheck, or to have to work 2 jobs just to make ends meet, and I'm talkig about just to get the food, utilities, housepayment and car payment. Not boats, 4 wheelers or any of the other great toys we have today. I hire between 8 and 10 people every year and from what I can see we have a whole generation that was born with a silver spoon in their mouth and think that it is a right that everything be spoon fed to them. If you think that real estate agents are overpaid then don't deal with them. Buy your house from a FSBO and sell your house as a FSBO.When you look at FSBO's for 12 months and can't find the house you want or when your house is on the market for 12 months without selling maybe you will suddenly think that paying the percentage to get the real estate agent to market your house is great value. I have never been in the real estate business but know several people that are. The people that are bringing in 20k or 30k a month are not doing so by working 40 hours a week. These people generally know the type of people they cater too, whether they sell many inexpensive starter homes or if they sell very few 1,000,000.l00 homes they are putting in a lot of time in order to make what they make. I don't know exactly where this country is going but when people start wanting the government to thwart what is apparently a very good business plan so that others can prosper instead sounds like we are headed dangerously close to a socialist or communist government. One of the things that makes this country great is that if you have a great idea or an exceptional business plan you can get RICH!!!! If in the process of doing so you forget your roots and start deviating from that plan someone is going to be out there gunning for your. It is called capitalism. Damn, now my fingers are tired.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 03:04 PM

Trust me there are people making 20-30k a month w/o working more than 20 hours a week. They specialize in sub-prime loans and make 2-4 points on each deal they do.
I also know a broker in OC that is what I like to call a rent a broker who is making 50-60k a month working maybe 60 hours a month.

mickeyfinn

02-04-2004, 03:11 PM

You begrudge them for this? Does this bother you because it is someone else? If they can do it and do it consistently then sounds like someone has a great thing going. I guess my instincts would ask the following questions:
1. Who are you to say that someone else is making too much money?
2. If you had the same opportunity to make the same money doing the same thing would you? If so then your statements are made out of jealousy. If you would not and it is legal and easy as you say it is you are a fool.
3. Do you believe that they should not be allowed to do what they are doing and make the money they are making? .....hmmm....I don't like the fact that Bill Gates is making millions off of software so when you make it so they can's make their money work on good ole Bill next.
Geez...
I don't make anywhere near that kind of money, but I'm sure glad someone does. Gives me hope. As a rule I'm glad to see every dime someone can bring in as income. I don't begrudge anyone for what they make as long as they are doing it honestly.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 03:26 PM

Not to be an ass but did you read my post at all? I have said myself that I am a realtor (albiet new at it). My goal is to get to that level. I see the amount of work it takes, schooling, smarts etc and it is easy to make big money hence when I'm doing it. It's nothing more than a glorified car saleman. So if these idiots can do it so can most people. (That is why more people are doing FSBO)

BUSTI

02-04-2004, 03:52 PM

Toten,
If you lowered commissions for first time homeowners to facilitate their purchase you did it to preserve your paycheck or what was left of it. You sure as hell didn't do it because you thought you were over paid. And my assertions are correct you really do not understand our business. On this point I apologize because I will take blame for not explaining it correctly.
Here we go for a 5the time...real estate brokers get paid for the risk involved insuring that the seller and the buyers transaction is done legally and correctly....ITS CALLED RISK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Related to your question about education and or certification..the issue is this...see the paragraph above. How about contractors..look at what the can make more than us! Do they need MBA's for that? No! they make that money because they have labor time and material at risk and they have no gaurunteed income...they get paid for the risk of doing business.
car dealers don't have MBA's either but they earn the big bucks because they have their capital at risk. Look rarely does education find itself a requirement for high earnings. Even doctors don't paid for their education they get aid of their performance! you don't pay doctors more for each class or degree they have do you/ No! You pay them based on their performance and how well they do their job.. And those doctors that decide to open their own practice and R I S K their own capital and for go the luxury of a steady pay check and become self employed get paid much more money than the doctor who has the same education and decides to stay on staff at John Hopkins University Hospital and collect a salary..right!
What people earn in a free market system service industry like real estate is determined by their performance and what they have at risk! Only in the field of education will you find teachers and principles compensated based on the classes or degrees they have. Why because as educators they have nothing at risk and their performance has no bearing on their compensation. It is directly why the teaching profession is so screwed up.
Let me make it clear I am not paid what I am worth............I am UNDER PAID! Because of government regulation i can't charge what i amworth for mortgages the law restricts my income. Ah but if i ould charge what I am worth I could afford to offer even more services to my clients and they would gladly pay more as just waded through the competion like you that didn't believe their were worth the money they earn.
THE REASON YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH THE MONEY YOU GET PAID IS BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY AREN'T WORTH THE MONEY YOU GET PAID. ON THE OTHER HAND MY CLIENTS KNOW I'M WORTH THE MONEY I GET PAID AND TELL ME SO EVERY TIME THEY REPEAT TRANSACTION WITH ME! ARE MY CLIENTS STUPID?
NO THEY WASTE MORE MONEY THAN YOU MAKE EVERY YEAR...THEY KNOW A DEAL WHEN THEY SEE IT. TO THEM PAYING ME 2.5 POINTS FOR A MILLION DOLLAR LOAN OR 6.5 PERCENT TO SELL THERE BALBOA HOME FOR MORE THAN THEIR NEIGHBOR JUST SOLD FOR IS A STEAL AND THEY ARE HAPPY TO DO IT.
The differences between you and me are so great all I can say is its why it says President on business card and real estate agent on your business card. Just for your information after 24 years in this business and stints for 15 years as 1st VP of real esrate lending for Security National Bank and Asst National sales director for Shearson Lehman Mortgage as well as Sr Vp for Norwest Bank, and oh by the way 2 years ago I turned down manger of real estate business for Wells Fargo Bank...I have learned something else...I get paid also for what I know! Do you?
And Rio my loan reps do loans for Walmart employees and we value their business as we do the VON's checker that just lost her job. I personally handle clients like there western regional vp of the Walmarts of the world and the President of Trader Joes markets. Thats what i do for a living what do you do?

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by totenhosen
Not to be an ass but did you read my post at all? I have said myself that I am a realtor (albiet new at it). My goal is to get to that level. I see the amount of work it takes, schooling, smarts etc and it is easy to make big money hence when I'm doing it. It's nothing more than a glorified car saleman. So if these idiots can do it so can most people. (That is why more people are doing FSBO)
When you get there (to be a big time agent, maybe a broker with a bunch of agents) are you going to tell your sales people that they're "glorified salesman"? How many good agents do you think you'll attract with that line? Are you going to call them "idiots"?
Our business is not rocket science...but it's not easy. You do have to work and you do have to be good at it (efficient) to be successful. If you're upset that we're not curring cancer then I don't know what anybody could say to that.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 04:17 PM

Hey mickeyfinn, are you an Objectivist? Finally there's someone here who really gets it!
You're absolutely right about capitalism.
Totenhousen is wrong about people being "overpaid". The proof is the fact that most realtors work for small offices, the business is highly competitive (many participants) and the costs of entry into the industry is so cheap.
When there are many suppliers biding for a given demand, price becomes a more major factor. Why? Because with so many competitors in a market the level services are more similar amonst each competitor and higher priced competitors are easily substitutable with lower priced, similar product providing supplier. This abundance of competitors drives prices down to the point as far as the suppliers can go without making other jobs more attractive (like life insurance, equities, etc.). Realtors will cut prices to get business, but not the point where they'll lose money. Also, as the prices drop, more realtors leave the industry as profits decrease and opportunity costs increase (the lure of higher paying jobs in other industries). The end result is that prices wind up leveling out exactly where the should be--which happens to be the most realtors can demand for their services and as much as sellers will pay for the services.
Disagree? Explain why no major real estate company has succeeded in offering full service real estate services and put all the ReMax's, First Team's, Century21's and the others out of business? If ReMax offer .05% lowering then everyone else, they'd own the market...right? Why haven't they? Are they stupid? No, the answer is that they can't do it.
There are too many competitors for your claim, Totenhousen, that realtors are "overpaid".
The same is true for mortgage brokers. 80% of all loans in the US are originated by mortgage brokers and theres millions of us (almost it seems, lol). So when a borrower pays 2-4 points for a loan, that's because that's the cost. Sub-Prime (bad credit) borrowers need thier credit packages to be processed more carefully and dynamically then good credit borrowers. This is skill and not every mortgage broker can close the same borrower since the trade tricks for sub-prime is highly guarded by the good mortgage brokers and it takes creativity and cunning to get a lot of sub-prime loans closed. Frankly, that service requires payment. If the borrower doesn't like it, try and get the same loan from someone else, there's plenty of competitors out there who will try.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by BUSTI
Let me make it clear I am not paid what I am worth............I am UNDER PAID!
DUh! Don't most people feel that way? Ask the checkers at Vons.
Originally posted by BUSTI
THE REASON YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE WORTH THE MONEY YOU GET PAID IS BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY AREN'T WORTH THE MONEY YOU GET PAID. ON THE OTHER HAND MY CLIENTS KNOW I'M WORTH THE MONEY I GET PAID AND TELL ME SO EVERY TIME THEY REPEAT TRANSACTION WITH ME! ARE MY CLIENTS STUPID?
Yes they are! Doesn't mean I won't take the money
Originally posted by BUSTI
NO THEY WASTE MORE MONEY THAN YOU MAKE EVERY YEAR...THEY KNOW A DEAL WHEN THEY SEE IT. TO THEM PAYING ME 2.5 POINTS FOR A MILLION DOLLAR LOAN OR 6.5 PERCENT TO SELL THERE BALBOA HOME FOR MORE THAN THEIR NEIGHBOR JUST SOLD FOR IS A STEAL AND THEY ARE HAPPY TO DO IT.
I can't help it if they are stupid. Good for them and your pocketbook. I didn't know that you knew my personal financial situation. Lets keep it to the subject at hand because your personal insults show that you are stretching for soemthing.
Originally posted by BUSTI
The differences between you and me are so great all I can say is its why it says President on business card and real estate agent on your business card. Just for your information after 24 years in this business and stints for 15 years as 1st VP of real esrate lending for Security National Bank and Asst National sales director for Shearson Lehman Mortgage as well as Sr Vp for Norwest Bank, and oh by the way 2 years ago I turned down manger of real estate business for Wells Fargo Bank...I have learned something else...I get paid also for what I know! Do you?
If it makes you feel better my business card for my importing company says President and Owner. Big deal!
Wow for somene of such high distinction how do you find time to post on this website? You sound like an old crotched man throwing out your resume.
It still doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of fat in the business. How do I know because I kick it with some of the executives over at Full Spectrum in Pasadena and from my personal experiences. Just because I'm new doesn't mean that I'm blind to it.
Tell me why a processor should make a $120k a year. Aren't you the same person who hates the unions and their affect on the supermarket. It's people like you that make buying and selling a home the rip off that it is. You have this mentality that you offer this one product that only you can deliver or provide.
I'm not the only one that thinks you are overpaid. Look at my other post.

totenhosen

02-04-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
Disagree? Explain why no major real estate company has succeeded in offering full service real estate services and put all the ReMax's, First Team's, Century21's and the others out of business? If ReMax offer .05% lowering then everyone else, they'd own the market...right? Why haven't they? Are they stupid? No, the answer is that they can't do it.
Marty Rodriguez in Glendora does a pretty good job of it. So does CalHome Funding in OC. Thye can do it if they wanted to. It would be against their best interest in doing so. Why would you lower your own wage when the general public isn't hip to the tools and tricks of real estate. Business as usual for the dinosaur of real estate sales.

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by totenhosen
Marty Rodriguez in Glendora does a pretty good job of it. So does CalHome Funding in OC. Thye can do it if they wanted to. It would be against their best interest in doing so. Why would you lower your own wage when the general public isn't hip to the tools and tricks of real estate. Business as usual for the dinosaur of real estate sales.
Because doing 1,000 times the business for half as much speaks for itself.

BUSTI

02-04-2004, 05:23 PM

I am far from an old crotchety man in fact I work circles around my employees half my age and do it with a smile on my face.. I am very happy with what I do and in fact I am very happy when our company goes to the bank with commission checks...and we do it every day do you?
You seem like a crothety young person that can neither explain nor validate why you make commissions. If it makes you feel better to say that you admitt you rip people off than go ahead keep ripin people off. I agree with you. YOU are ripin people OFF..OK YOU WIN YOU RIP PEOPLE OFF!
But 24 years later and thousands of clients later I have not been sued by one person that has ever implied I ripped them off. In fact I have never been sued. So please sell that shit to somebody else. I am sure you can find somebody that will agree with you that you rip people off. You won't find one of my cliebts that think that though.
People like you that rip people off in the real estate market is why their are complaints and why real estate is so high ...you admitted rip off artist!

JakeAisA

02-04-2004, 05:24 PM

"Tell me why a processor should make a $120k a year?"
Here's how an economist would respond: Tell me why not?
I think you should list what YOU think every job in America is WORTH.

totenhosen

02-05-2004, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by BUSTI
I am far from an old crotchety man in fact I work circles around my employees half my age and do it with a smile on my face.. I am very happy with what I do and in fact I am very happy when our company goes to the bank with commission checks...and we do it every day do you?
You seem like a crothety young person that can neither explain nor validate why you make commissions. If it makes you feel better to say that you admitt you rip people off than go ahead keep ripin people off. I agree with you. YOU are ripin people OFF..OK YOU WIN YOU RIP PEOPLE OFF!
But 24 years later and thousands of clients later I have not been sued by one person that has ever implied I ripped them off. In fact I have never been sued. So please sell that shit to somebody else. I am sure you can find somebody that will agree with you that you rip people off. You won't find one of my cliebts that think that though.
People like you that rip people off in the real estate market is why their are complaints and why real estate is so high ...you admitted rip off artist!
Why do you keep comparing yourself to me. I told you I'm a new comer to the business. So no I don't take real estate commissions to the bank everyday. But my import business does. So please come off your high horse about the $$$ factor. All you can do is make slanderous remarks. Who knows maybe the DRE will be calling you or investigating you shortly.
So because you run circles around younger people doesn't mean your not an old washed up ass. Just look at how you keep trying to put me down because you can't add anything of substance to the arguement.
Like I said earlier I'm looking at the business and see that there is a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed. I'll compare myself to Walmart and see that oldtimers like yourself have way too much excess. I see things from a different angle than someone who has embedded themselves in only one business. (Why don't you try to compete in my other bsuiness. You wouldn't know what to do! Have you ever doing something that involves bring in foods from overseas?)I'm going to streamline the process and make cuts along the way. I will not only deliver a better product/service than you but I will also make it cheaper for my clients and at the same time line my wallet with $$$. Thanks for telling me who you are by spouting off your personal resume (because anyone cares). I know who you are but do you know who I am?
You are a dinosaur in the industry. I'm a newcomer that sees there are better ways of doing things. You would never listen to me because you are so big-headed. I see it all the time with the guys at Full Spectrum. Your posts make that abundantly clear. I hope you are retiring soon because it will be a shame to see you on the bottom when young guys like me change the ay we are all currently doing business.

totenhosen

02-05-2004, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
"Tell me why a processor should make a $120k a year?"
Here's how an economist would respond: Tell me why not?
I think you should list what YOU think every job in America is WORTH.
Don't be assinine!

JakeAisA

02-05-2004, 08:29 AM

Toten,
You know, I just don't think you like being told that we're not rip off artists.

totenhosen

02-05-2004, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
Toten,
You know, I just don't think you like being told that we're not rip off artists.
Never said we as a industry nor you are rip off artists. My point this whole time is there is tons of excess in the industry. All it takes is one person/one idea to change all of that. However the powers that be like Busti don't want to change. They are quite happy with the status quo. "It's work for so long so why change now" is his attitude. Dinosaur mentality.

JakeAisA

02-05-2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by totenhosen
Never said we as a industry nor you are rip off artists. My point this whole time is there is tons of excess in the industry. All it takes is one person/one idea to change all of that. However the powers that be like Busti don't want to change. They are quite happy with the status quo. "It's work for so long so why change now" is his attitude. Dinosaur mentality.
How do you know this about Busti?

totenhosen

02-05-2004, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
How do you know this about Busti?
By not willing to admit that their is ton of excess.
By his holier than thou attitude. By his constant I make more money than you, I have commission checks everyday. He's probably a big-headed egocentric ass. His workers probably cower when he walks by.
I see it with the guys at one of the nations largest lenders. The idiots were sending out appraisers without doing it COD. Than the client would back out but the appraiser still had to be paid. It was costing them approximately $78M a month. Did they care? It was brought up to them numerous times but they didn't want to listen to the "new guy". Eventually this guy went over all their heads and took it to the Exec. President who threw a shit fit on why nothing had been done.

JakeAisA

02-05-2004, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by totenhosen
By not willing to admit that their is ton of excess.
By his holier than thou attitude. By his constant I make more money than you, I have commission checks everyday. He's probably a big-headed egocentric ass. His workers probably cower when he walks by.
I see it with the guys at one of the nations largest lenders. The idiots were sending out appraisers without doing it COD. Than the client would back out but the appraiser still had to be paid. It was costing them approximately $78M a month. Did they care? It was brought up to them numerous times but they didn't want to listen to the "new guy". Eventually this guy went over all their heads and took it to the Exec. President who threw a shit fit on why nothing had been done.
Busti is a very smart man and he's very humble. I think you pissed him off when you shit on the industry and insulted the sales proffession.

totenhosen

02-05-2004, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by JakeAisA
Busti is a very smart man and he's very humble. I think you pissed him off when you shit on the industry and insulted the sales proffession.
Hey I'm sure he is smart. But someone that is at his level should be able to roll with the punches and take some criticism. (I didn't resort to personal jabs at first) He threw a fit like a little baby.
He of all people should know that there is always a better way of doing things no matterhow perfect something may seem. Isn't that what our entire economy is based on? Inventiness, intuition and execution?

AzDon

02-05-2004, 12:12 PM

It's called IGM syndrome (IGM=I got mine) These guys are absolutely comfortable with having Wal-Mart define what somebody else's wages should be, but smugly swear that it can't happen in their field because they produce, in their words, "real value." They have no problem with companies like Wal-Mart inducing town councils to "steal" supposedly "blighted" residential properties (at blighted residential value) and finance the deal with the value of the rezoning. They have no problem with the Wal-Marts of this country insisting on tax inducements from localities to arrive and then use these inducements to their competitive advantage. They bash trade unions for blue collar folks, yet fully engage in their own "price fixing" professional organizations. They would have you believe that spendable dollars are limitless and thus, that Wal-Mart actually creates jobs rather than simply offering lower wages to the displaced employees of those companies they've put out of business. They deny that this downward pressure on wages will ever result in fewer qualifyable home buyers or ANY erosion in consumer's spendable monies.
Simply, that they've figured out how to make a comfortable living and displaced workers that require a living wage should retrain for a career where they can earn one (like real estate!) They would even deny that a surge of bodies to their industry would create a glut of help that would erode their wages!
I've written to Wal-Mart about this thread and suggested that they look at real estate and financial services as potential areas for profitable growth!
This thread was originally about the financial devastation that companies like WM cause by displacing companies that pay better wages as well as the devastation they cause on manufacturing wages by making their suppliers offer Chinese pricing.
I remember a few years ago , an acquaintance of mine who makes custom kitchen cabinets saying that he had no problem with Home Depot and Lowes using city government and their size to put the local hardware stores and lumberyards out of business.....survival of the fittest, he called it........ that was until they started offering custom cabinets!!

HighRoller

02-05-2004, 12:37 PM

THE SKY IS FALLING!!THE SKY IS FALLING!!WAL-MART IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!!THEY'RE GOING TO ENSLAVE YOUR CHILDREN AND PUT EVERY STORE IN YOUR TOWN OUT OF BUSINESS!!THEY'RE HANDING OUT ALCOHOL TO MINORS AND CIGARETTES TO YOUR PETS!!THEY MUST BE STOPPED!! Wake up people, they said the same thing about Sears, IBM and Microsoft. We're still here, aren't we? Oh ye of little faith...keep panicking. That's exactly what Wal-Mart wants. So if every cheap job in the country gets exported are we all going to die? Are you going to let your children starve? I doubt it. You'll find a way, just like millions of others. It's called capitalism, and it's what makes us BETTER than the countries that our jobs are going to. They're getting our hand-me-downs while we create better jobs.

Blown 472

02-05-2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by HighRoller
THE SKY IS FALLING!!THE SKY IS FALLING!!WAL-MART IS TAKING OVER THE WORLD!!THEY'RE GOING TO ENSLAVE YOUR CHILDREN AND PUT EVERY STORE IN YOUR TOWN OUT OF BUSINESS!!THEY'RE HANDING OUT ALCOHOL TO MINORS AND CIGARETTES TO YOUR PETS!!THEY MUST BE STOPPED!! Wake up people, they said the same thing about Sears, IBM and Microsoft. We're still here, aren't we? Oh ye of little faith...keep panicking. That's exactly what Wal-Mart wants. So if every cheap job in the country gets exported are we all going to die? Are you going to let your children starve? I doubt it. You'll find a way, just like millions of others. It's called capitalism, and it's what makes us BETTER than the countries that our jobs are going to. They're getting our hand-me-downs while we create better jobs.
And what type of jobs are the back bone of this country??

JakeAisA

02-05-2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Blown 472
And what type of jobs are the back bone of this country??
Businessmen.

HighRoller

02-05-2004, 01:10 PM

And what type of jobs are the back bone of this country??
The majority of the jobs in this country are provided by small businesses of less than 100 people. So when people are worried about big corporations taking over the country they don't know what they're talking about!

fasteddie51

02-05-2004, 01:15 PM

How about some stock in walmart???? a very good investment and then all you walmart bashers can sell your stock on E Trade (no brokers fee) the same day and bring the giants to there knees........BTW what about the stock brokers who should they turn to for work now that the internet has taken their jobs...........

HighRoller

02-05-2004, 01:17 PM

They could get some more education and become financial planners...

BUSTI

02-05-2004, 02:11 PM

Roller,
You absolutely right! Most of you know by now that my partner in my real estate businessis my oldest son, JakeAisA. Well my other son is probably the most successful commercial title insurance rep in Southern California. He told that the study cited by the LA city council that reached a negative conclusion about Super WalMarts effect on the local economy was false and scientifically unsound. The politocos of LA county used a study financed by the unions whereby the financier of the study had an interest in the conclusions. He said although is company had no interest in the walmart deal what is company concluded after reviewing the report was that the unions reached a conclusion with the City council and then shopped around for a company that would support their findings regardless of what the data supported just as long as it supported the unions position.
He told me that it is widely known by all commercial real estate developers across the country that Walmarts actually mean a boom in local economy for a number of reasons. First of all they Walmart raely has a store fail. To his knowledge in California they have never had a store fail. Walmart usually raises the traffic flow of shoppers to a neighborhood. Lowes Homeimprovement is exceptionally happy to locate next to or very near to a walmart. In fact according to him Lowes last three stores in Califoenia were right next to Walmarts and are among Lowes fast growing stores. Think of the jobs that brings to a community.
Also the strip center developement along the immeadiate streets just ajacent to Walmarts all show increase of new development of new small businesses like stores, fast food resturants and other businesses as well. He says that the people that lend money to large commercial developers love the added value that a walmart brings to their properties specifically a growth in smaller business developement .
His company said that the only reason the LA city council voted the walmart down was directly related to the BIG UNIONS contributing political money to the city council in a way that walmart doesnot. That the retail clerks give money and they vote in local ections. Wlmart just gives money but really doesn't go into the voting booth on election day as the union memebers do.
The walmart turn down by LA had nothing to do what was good for the local economy because the truth is walmarts bring more jobs to small businesses in the areas they go into.
HighRoller you are right the small businessman employes the most of the average guys working today. And Walmarts helps other small businesses grow. The facts speak for themselves. In fact one of the studies done by Wells Fargo Bank chiefs economists recently said the only people hurt by Walmart are the retail clerks union and big ineffecient grocery companies that employ them.
This thread shouldn't be Fu%k walmart it should be Fu%k all the union slobs that fear real competition!
Go get'em WalMart! Union commie collectivists compete or die!