Advice needed on new engine $$?

[mud duck]

Yesterday I finally picked up a written estimate for my new replacement engine. Some of you may remember that I blew my 454 last September. So, to take out the old engine, dispose of the old engine saving what ever can be salvaged (blower, headers, etc.), build a new 502 with the right stuff, Dyno it, and install it into the boat, we are talking $15,000. That is almost what the entire boat cost me in October 2002 (I think I paid $18,000 for the boat). Now on the estimate he states he will be using JE pistons, Dart heads and has to have the intake reworked to go with a 1050 carb instead of the 850 I had. And I understand this is an upgrade from the old engine (which I had just dumped $6,000 into last June). But $15,000 sounded steep to me. Am I way off base? You know if the estimate is $15,000, the final bill will be $16,000+. I need to start robbing banks here.
What should I do? :eek:

[Squirtcha?]

Get some other bids. I'd get at least one other opinion, maybe two.

[Jungle Boy]

Good engines built by reputable builders, using good parts cost money. The alternative is getting some guy to slap together a bunch of off the shelf parts that don't work good together and you end up with a engine that don't make the power that it's supposed and it lets go early in it's life. I have a few buddies that have done this for years (over and over!!). If they would have gone to a guy that understands HP and good race engines they would be happy boaters instead of pist off floaters.:)

[superdave013]

that's less then what I'll have wraped up in mine.
Might want to talk to Infomanic. He does great work at a fair price.
Oh, can you post the build sheet of the parts he plans to use?
I'ed expect to see something like Carrillo rods and that type of thing at that price.

[Hotcrusader76]

If you're going to a Dominator carburetor you might as well get a 4500 applicable intake, not a converted 4150 style.
Why bother spending the cash (machine labor) to convert when you can get one out of the box from Edelbrock or Wilson? Just some food for thought on cost savings there.
~Ty

[Unchained]

Buy all the components out of a mail order place like Summit or Jegs and bring them to a local engine shop and have them balance and assemble the short block.
Do the rest of the assembly yourself.
Here's a parts list I compiled a couple years ago.
www.childsdale-ind-prop.com/pictures/enginepartsstudy.jpg

[mud duck]

Thanks for the advice guys. I believe I may call Duane at HTP and see what he thinks about this whole thing. I have also found several race engine builders here in the metro area, but I have not called any yet. The trouble is that I really like this builder's work and he would do a very good job. The other builders are not marine guys, but dragster guys. And I really want a marine ready engine. I am just upset about the cost.
I look at the "Offshore Race Boat" forum once in a while and they talk about blowing $100,000 on a boat. $70,000 is a bargain boat. I must need a new job or attitude or something. I went to college & graduated, what am I doing so wrong that money is not falling out of my a$$. It apparently is from some folks. This habit/hobby is a worse addiction than smoking. Ohkay, sorry right away to all the smokers out there. I do not want to offend anyone.
I am just looking for a better solution to my problem. Thanks. :cool:

[HavasuDreamin']

Here is something I have thought about, but never have had the need (never have blown up an engine). Look around for another boat that has a bitchen motor in it......the type of motor you are looking for. Chances are you can pick up the boat and motor for the same price as a new motor will cost you to have done right. Then pull the motor, stick it in your boat, and try to sell the other boat less engine.
It could be a lot of brain damage in terms of having to sell a boat less engine, and you never do know exactly what you are getting when you buy a used HI-PO motor, but you probably could get out the door for about half of what you are looking at now.
Just some food for thought.
HD

[BigBoyToys]

Originally posted by HavasuDreamin'
Here is something I have thought about, but never have had the need (never have blown up an engine). Look around for another boat that has a bitchen motor in it......the type of motor you are looking for. Chances are you can pick up the boat and motor for the same price as a new motor will cost you to have done right. Then pull the motor, stick it in your boat, and try to sell the other boat less engine.
It could be a lot of brain damage in terms of having to sell a boat less engine, and you never do know exactly what you are getting when you buy a used HI-PO motor, but you probably could get out the door for about half of what you are looking at now.
Just some food for thought.
HD
Exactly!;) In fact, I have a boat for sale that has a VERY Nice normally aspirated carbureted 476ci BBC motor in it with all the goodies. I have had MANY inquiries from folks wanting to buy the boat minus engine. Am asking my winter time price of $5500.00 for it turnkey! Throw your blower on it and Voila'! Instant 1k+ reliable Horsepower!:D

[superdave013]

Originally posted by BigBoyToys
Exactly!;) In fact, I have a boat for sale that has a VERY Nice normally aspirated carbureted 476ci BBC motor in it with all the goodies. I have had MANY inquiries from folks wanting to buy the boat minus engine. Am asking my winter time price of $5500.00 for it turnkey! Throw your blower on it and Voila'! Instant 1k+ reliable Horsepower!:D
Uhhhhhhhhh, are you trying to talk someone here into buying your engine, take the intake off and slap a blower on it?
Nice :rolleyes:

[Fiat48]

If you want to save some money and get your hands dirty, then cyclone had a buildup from a crate motor that sounds like it would be right up your alley. Plenty of guys here to help you through the steps.
Cyclone's post:
"Ok you asked for recipes so here's the one that worked for me.
my recipe:
take 1 GMPP 502cid crate long block (all forged parts, rods have 7/16 bolts, 4-bolt main caps)
add a Moroso 11-quart oil pan and HV oil pump
top off with AFR 315 CNC aluminum heads (tulip valves, AFR springs)
Add Comp Cams bumpstick grind #CBVI 48768/4877B SR112.0
Comp Cams 1.73 ratio Magnum rockers
Comp Cams pushrods
Edelbrock Victor JR Air Gap intake manifold
Holley 950 HP Carburetor
MSD 6AL ignition and pro billet distributor and wires
Set timing at 37 degrees advance
Jet the carb with #92 jets at all four corners
and you'll have a 9.62:1 Compression ratio, pump gas-friendly (91 or 89 octane) engine that will make 730hp.
Assemble it yourself (the long block comes assembled) and the parts will cost you about 8 grand. No magic, no bs,just good parts that worked very well for me. Im no engine builder and my friends and i put this combo together in my garage in less than six hours."
Or here's a used running 454:
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39993

[BigBoyToys]

Originally posted by superdave013
Uhhhhhhhhh, are you trying to talk someone here into buying your engine, take the intake off and slap a blower on it?
Nice :rolleyes:
It was worth a shot:D LOL

[littlewood]

The Cyclone's engine build up is a good idea. But, I will tell you from experience that I would never use a short block from GM without checking clearances. Even though the Cyclone engine produced good power it doesn't mean it will last. I would buy the short block from GM then take it to a shop that builds tractor puller engines. Those guys know how to build an engine that will take the load.

[TRG]

it"d probably be best to bring a "LOAD" of cash as well!...would'nt ya think wood? my uncle used to run a puller out of morganfield KY. and the money he spent on power!....coulda' made trump choke! i think he had like four BBC's on that sled? gotta love dem "REDNEKS"!!

[jstwkd]

I'll sell you this one for 10,000 Has'nt even been fired since the rebiuld. With a solid lift cam should be good for 700 hp.The comp. is 9.6 . I also have a chrome oil cooler that goes with it
Gen VI 502 short block JE pistons , Blue printed high volume oil pump , Dually 10 qrt. oil pan with windage tray and scrapper ,
Comp Cams XR300 Hr Hyd. roller cam shaft Exh. lift .254 / .580 Int. lift .248 / 560 , roller Lifters ,SST roller rockers, Comp cams stud girdeles, pushrods Complete valve train . Comp Cams true roller timing set ,Polished alum. timing cover , polished alum. crank pulley , High torque Mini starter ,
SFI approved flex plate , Chrome110 amp alt. and brackets, Rewarder twisty headers with two sets of basset racing mufflers,
Edelbrock 6045 alum heads fully ported and polished , Exhaust ports opened up for better flow , Edelbrock polished tunnel ram
port matched to heads, Two 660 center squirters with custom polished brackets for the lines and regulator by TPC .
You can see the carb build up at http://www.tpcracing.com/660Article.html These are actually my carbs . I have not even ran gas thru them yet. They are topped off with a dually scoop and two flame aresters. MSD complete marine system , Dist , box , rev. limiter , wires, and chrome bracket to mount to the back of the head,
Holley black fuel pump and regulator , Polished alum. valve covers and tall breathers, CP Perfromance polished thermostat kit,
The boat is an 1989 caribbean by hardin marine . This is a full stringer boat . The year before last year I hit 79.6 on GPS with a 1/4 in. hook in the bottom . Last year I flipped the boat removed the hook and spped coated the bottom. The hull has a new sterring hell all new accesories,
SST gauges by hardin marine . polished bezels, polished and anodized switches,anodized forward/reverse
lever ,four mushroom cleets on the inside of the hull to tie up with. Two alum. 12 gal. fuel tanks. Two new polished fuel fills . The newer
flat stile,two bildge pumps with polished over boards for the bildge and two for the motor.The Outside trim was replaced two years
ago. After I did the bottom I decided to replace the sub floor. I have a new piece of marine grade plywood cut to fit but never installed.
I have a new roll of marine carpet not installed. And new polished trim for the inside of the boat not installed.There is a CP Performance
polished dual tank switch and costum polished bracket. Fram racing filter and brackets , new batt,New anodized cup holders , Interior and gel is original
In great shape. I removed the pump intake it has been reinstalled but I have not gone under the boat drilled the holes and finished the intake .
It was cut for a shoe and ride plate. this enitire boat ,motor,and pump are plumbed with russel fitiings and SST braided lines.
The pump I bought a new 12ji from CP Performance. Witch is a 12jg just with the newer bowl with longer vains.
In 01 I put about 5 hrs on the pump . last year I had Jim from performance jet in sebastapol CA. http://www.performancejet.com/about%20us.htm
rebiuld the pump . I had a stage three done to it because I allready had the Bowl stuffer and flowed the bowl front and rear by Walts hot boat http://www.walts***boat.com/
, It has a new aquamet shaft , agressor mag bronze impeller and wear ring cut down and hand worked to fit the stuffer, the hand hole was filled
the intake was hand worked for better flow, a berkeley droop snoot , place diverter adjustable diverter, berkeley pollished ride plate and
mounting bracket. there is no time on any of these parts since rebiuld.
I will sell the pump seporate , the Motor seporate , and The Hull
Or as one
http://www.imagestation.com/picture...b1/fa514a2b.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture...34/fa514a2c.jpg
Thanks

[BigBoyToys]

Bad links....page not found:confused:

[jstwkd]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/281P5020040-med.JPG http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/281Boat_3-med.jpg
Sorry about that !
The motor now has the dual quads . Instead of the single set up.

[DiverDown]

littlewood posted
I would buy the short block from GM then take it to a shop that builds tractor puller engines. Those guys know how to build an engine that will take the load.
My background in engine building is in truck and tractor pulling as well as mud draggers and off-raod. I am just now being asked to get into the jet boat deal as I have stated in a couple of other threads since joining the board, and the two motors I have going together right now are pullin' motors at heart. I will let y'all know how they work out. The first one is a pump gas aluminum headed 496 that is going in a Crusader tunnel with a berk pump and full interior with stereo. I am trying to learn the pump stuff right now and have been talking to pump builders for the last two weeks,(boy, and I thought I was opinionated), anyway we should have it all together and ready to test in about three weeks.
PS. Mud Duck- I don't know how far away I am from you, but I would be happy to try and help you out with some combos or a complete engine if your interested. Just PM me.

[mud duck]

This is the estimate I received on February 10th:
1999 Carrera - Blown Motor (my boat is actually an Ultra)
*Remove blown motor & tear down
*Replace with 502 CI engine
*Dart Heads
*Manley Severe-Duty Valves
*8qt Oil Pan
*JE Blower Pistons
*Comp Cams
*External Oil Cooler
*Send intake in to modify for 1050 CFM carburetor
*Assemble and run on Dyno
*Reinstall in boat
*Estimated power on pump gas - 650 hp
All parts & labor above includes: All stainless steel braided lines and fittings, flame arrestor, carburetor, roller rockers & push rods. Also motor will be painted to match the boat.
Total: $14 - $15,000 (plus freight & tax)
Request: 50% down
-------------------------------------------
So, there you have it. Kind of a vague quote. He does not itemize each part for price. Nor does he explain the lower end parts.
Parts I wanted to reuse (and I believe he plans to reuse some): Lightning Headers, B&M 250 Blower, 850 Holley Double Pumper, Isky Roller Rockers & Push Rods, MSD Ignition. (These parts were all new last June.)
My original engine was a 454, so I realize this is an upgrade. And perhaps I am just whinning to much about the price tag. However, if any of you can give me your opinions here I would greatly appreciate it.
Jstwkd - That is one awesome engine and boat. :D

[jstwkd]

mud duck , Thanks,
Make me an offer . This is a second boat that has been sitting since last season. I would like to see someone use it. I have a ton of money invested the motor alone. Actually a bit more than your estimate for the motor . I just had a baby boy and bought a family boat . The wife has allways been afraid of the jet.
The motor set up the way it is should be somewhere in the 600 hp mark or more

[Squeezing Spectra]

OUCH just my 2 cents

[Duane HTP]

Mud Duck, I 've got a couple of 502 Gen VI engines lying around the shop here. I'll try to take the time to come up with a reasonable quote for you in the next couple of days. I also have some new sets of aluminum heads that you might be interested in that I'm not planning on using on anything special. Also have 522 cid, a 565 cid, and a 572 cid Chevy's that you might be interested in. I'll put something together for a quote for you. I know your set up, and think I can save you some bucks.
Duane HTP

[mud duck]

Thanks Duane, I appreciate it!
Limiting factors: pump gas only & 250 blower size

[Duane HTP]

No Problem. But I'll probably have to get it together after this week end. Things are piling up before the open house Sunday.
Wish you could be here.

[DiverDown]

mud duck,
Check your PMs, I sent you an estimate!

[SANGERBRU]

Hey JSTWKD I am interested in you're ride, please send me some info to brupus@aol.com

[SANGERBRU]

JSTWKD , I can come to you to look, I have a house at Clearlake and will be up this weekend.

[LVjetboy]

My engine upgrade advice, to all considering...
Take what you think it should cost and double. Don't kid yourself. If your engine costs more than the boat, so what? Is that your primary concern or valid measure of goals?
If you're considering 15k+ in the engine that's a huge investment in speed. So ask yourself, how fast do you really want to go? What is your true passion? Be honest and consider the power to get there. I thought I'd be happy with another 100-200 hp, but truth was, not. Shoot low hit low...and maybe not happy w/results after all that money spent. Shoot high...hit the mark.
There certainly is a get-what-you-pay-for. A true pro with experience can save you both $$ and a lot of hassles. Live and learn. But life's short...why waste it? Depending on how much time you think you have. Also there's a cost to changing your mind. I changed my goals midstream and it cost me...a lot.
Finally, when you consider performance, true power's the key. The power your jet see's at the lake not engine dyno power. "Corrected" dyno power usually not the same as "lake" power unless you boat at sea level on a cold day with dry air? Who does? Builders quote "corrected" for a good reason. Apples to apples comparison. I suppose only good if you recognize a standard and understand what that standard means. That's why there are standards.
If not, then well, corrected numbers are just braggin' rights if you choose. But those who think only braggin' rights miss the big picture. As you shop around or consider engine parts, understand what that quoted power is based on.
jer

[TopCat]

Just looked in the Summit catalog BBC Complete W/intake & brodix heads 555ci 850hp(3000-7500rpm) $15500 & 540ci 820hp(3000-7000rpm) $13000.00 maybe you better chg engine builders

[boatnam2]

i think you need to get a little more info.you blew up your motor what did you blow up.i blew my motor up a couple of times block was still good crank and rods were still good heads were still good.i think there is many un answered questions here.

[mud duck]

My motor was pretty much toast. The front of the block was cracked and pushed out, the crank was broken between two connecting rods, two connecting rods were baddly bent, two pistons were cracked, the oil pan was bent & full of shrapnel. Not a good picture. :mad:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/452My_Pictures0007-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/452My_Pictures0009-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/452My_Pictures0002-med.jpg

[mud duck]

More pics of damage.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/452My_Pictures0003-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/452My_Pictures0004-med.jpg

[Chris J]

Yep... that motor is definately broke. Sorry for your lose, hope you gave it a decent burial and have better luck on your new motor.
Your not alone though anyone who plays with Hi Pro toys will eventually have to bury one of there own.

[BigBoyToys]

Damn that motor is tore up!:eek: What were ya doing when it let loose?:(

[boatnam2]

shit man that thing is toast i guess all the questions have been answered.there is always a few nice motors for sale in the boat trader for 6 to 8k.i would think you could do nice short block with the good stuff for 6 to 7k.i know you can get a 600hp from teague ready to go for 9995.00.