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Jbb
02-13-2004, 07:42 PM
Your tax dollars at work..........................BANG! (http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/181tbird.wmv)

Infomaniac
02-13-2004, 07:49 PM
A thousand feet short so what.
I wonder what he was thinking when he hit the apex of that split "S" ?

Jbb
02-13-2004, 07:52 PM
Altimiter bug....check, set ....Bang!

JetBoatRich
02-13-2004, 08:00 PM
I am sure thet practice over and over, but sometimes that is not enough:yuk:

stoker
02-13-2004, 08:21 PM
Was that at El Toro? I was at an air show about 15 years ago when a plane did the exact same thing. Sad part was acouple of dickheads in front of us started laughing. The pilot survived but was messed up bad.

JetBoatRich
02-13-2004, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by stoker
Was that at El Toro? I was at an air show about 15 years ago when a plane did the exact same thing. Sad part was acouple of dickheads in front of us started laughing. The pilot survived but was messed up bad.
What were they laughing at:mad:

LASERRAY
02-13-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by stoker
Was that at El Toro? I was at an air show about 15 years ago when a plane did the exact same thing. Sad part was acouple of dickheads in front of us started laughing. The pilot survived but was messed up bad. Or, is it the incident from about three weeks ago in Idaho?:confused:

Uplink
02-14-2004, 03:18 AM
They had a horrible incident at Indian Springs, NV in 1982 when they were flying T-38's, the lead plane in the diamond formation had a malfunction while performing a loop, the lead crashed and the rest followed him in. All 4 pilots lost.
These guys do what very few other humans can or will do. I am more than happy to give the Air Force my tax dollars. Mark

Wet Dream
02-14-2004, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Uplink
They had a horrible incident at Indian Springs, NV in 1982 when they were flying T-38's, the lead plane in the diamond formation had a malfunction while performing a loop, the lead crashed and the rest followed him in. All 4 pilots lost.
These guys do what very few other humans can or will do. I am more than happy to give the Air Force my tax dollars. Mark
I remember that one.
We used to live in Merced, just a few mile from the Air Force base there. Back in the 70's there weren't many restrictions as there are now, but it would be common to be watching cartoons on Saturday morning and the windows would rattle with the familiar "BOOM" of the sound barrier being broken.

Cs19
02-14-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by stoker
Was that at El Toro? I was at an air show about 15 years ago when a plane did the exact same thing. .
I was there too. That sucked.
That looks like the same crash.

stoker
02-14-2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by cs19
I was there too. That sucked.
That looks like the same crash.
There is nothing like 30,000 + people going completely silent except for a couple of laughing jackasses who find humor in tragedy :mad:

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 07:26 PM
I love air shows and aircraft. I hate it when these teams have incidents like this. Like the Blue Angels touching wingtips in the opposing loop in Canada, one dead. The Italian team in Germany with the plane parts flying into the audience. It makes you wonder about all of that training. Just one missed thing and boom.
What is wild is seeing the jet engine skipping ahead of the crash like a stone on the water.
Meanwhile the rest of them are "knocking it off". I wonder how the pilot did, he ejected seconds before impact. God I hate to see that stuff happen....:(
And as for the guys laughing...:mad:

LASERRAY
02-14-2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
I love air shows and aircraft. I hate it when these teams have incidents like this. Like the Blue Angels touching wingtips in the opposing loop in Canada, one dead. The Italian team in Germany with the plane parts flying into the audience. It makes you wonder about all of that training. Just one missed thing and boom.
What is wild is seeing the jet engine skipping ahead of the crash like a stone on the water.
Meanwhile the rest of them are "knocking it off". I wonder how the pilot did, he ejected seconds before impact. God I hate to see that stuff happen....:(
And as for the guys laughing...:mad: An F-4 Phantom crashed a couple of years ago at the Point Mugu Air Show which is about 6 miles from where I live. Both pilots were killed, and it was not caused by pilot error, I believe a bird was sucked into the engine causing "flame-out" and a loss of power. The pilot and navigator ejected, and landed on top of the fireball. I'm glad I wasn't there to see it. I don't ever want to witness anything like that.:(

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by LASERRAY
An F-4 Phantom crashed a couple of years ago at the Point Mugu Air Show which is about 6 miles from where I live. Both pilots were killed, and it was caused by pilot error. The pilot and navigator ejected, and landed on top of the fireball. I'm glad I wasn't there to see it. I don't ever want to witness anything like that.:(
I had always thought of that, ejecting from an aircraft and landing on the barbeque. What a rotten way to go... you would have been better off splattering yourself all over the field. At least it'd have been a little quicker...:(

rrrr
02-14-2004, 07:55 PM
This crash was at Mountain Home AFB Idaho. The other day I read an article about it in Aviation Week and Space Technology.
The thing that stood out for me is that the Thunderbird pilots set their altimeters to MSL (mean sea level) and then make altitude judgements by subtracting field elevation from MSL. In other words, if the airport is at 2,345 ft above sea level, the pilot has to look at his altimeter while starting a manuever and perform a calculation to determine if he is safe. This is all done at speeds approaching 650 MPH.
That seems stupid. I think it would be much safer to zero the aircraft altimeter at field elevation. That way the pilot only has to verify actual altitude for a specific manuever, a value they already know from many hours of practice.
Doesn't that make more sense?

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 08:01 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think the standard altimeter would support that. The altimeter works by sensing barometric pressure, based with sea level as 0. What they might be able to do is mark the instrument with a grease pencil or something old fashioned like that .
What does make sense would be a radar altimeter, because it is about as accurate as anything can be. But they fly significant portions of their show inverted...so I don't know if a 360 degree radar altimeter sensor or transducer or antenna exists... naw, nevermind....bad idea...

rrrr
02-14-2004, 08:11 PM
Hmmmm, I dunno if such an animal exists. I know radio altimeters are common in airliners, using a reflected signal from the ground to give precise altitude info. When your cockpit is five stories above the runway it helps to know when to flare.
It can't be that tough to make it happen. Sure seems like a good ideer.

LASERRAY
02-14-2004, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by LASERRAY
An F-4 Phantom crashed a couple of years ago at the Point Mugu Air Show which is about 6 miles from where I live. Both pilots were killed, and it was caused by pilot error. The pilot and navigator ejected, and landed on top of the fireball. I'm glad I wasn't there to see it. I don't ever want to witness anything like that.:(
Here's The Story:
Point Mugu F4 Crash (http://www.freqofnature.com/photos/f4crash/)

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by rrrr
Hmmmm, I dunno if such an animal exists. I know radio altimeters are common in airliners, using a reflected signal from the ground to give precise altitude info. When your cockpit is five stories above the runway it helps to know when to flare.
It can't be that tough to make it happen. Sure seems like a good ideer.
I know it doesn't exist. I though about it as soon as I wrote that sentence. The beam needs to be pointing at the ground, and they fly in all sorts of contorted positions, it would be useless. They use them on the 747 because of the height the flight crew is above ground, they can't accurately judge height agl.

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by LASERRAY
Here's The Story:
Point Mugu F4 Crash (http://www.freqofnature.com/photos/f4crash/)
I remember that one. And those must be the last operational F4s in the US inventory (Germany still uses them I think). The F4 was phased out early in the 90s after desert storm.
The navy hasn't used them for years before that. This one was a QF4 which is a remotely controllable version.
Very sad situation.

LASERRAY
02-14-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
I remember that one. And those must be the last operational F4s in the US inventory (Germany still uses them I think). The F4 was phased out early in the 90s after desert storm.
The navy hasn't used them for years before that. This one was a QF4 which is a remotely controllable version.
Very sad situation. The air show at Point Mugu was alot better in the 70's and early 80's when they used to use live ammo. Every year they would launch a F-4 Drone and then shoot it down with a sidewinder missle(which was one of the many missles developed here in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) usually launched from an attacking F-14 Tomcat. These days it's all ground static displays and simulated pyrotechnic B.S.. They haven't had the Blue Angels in four or five years and the Thunderbirds haven't been here in two years. This year's show is no exception. No major Stunt team. I'll still go regardless just to see the other aircraft on hand.:cool:

Trash
02-14-2004, 09:48 PM
What they might be able to do is mark the instrument with a grease pencil or something old fashioned like that .
Problem is you're using the HUD. Second issue is you'd never want to mark up the optics on the HUD.
All airliners have radar altimeters as do most military aircraft. They too have limitations as alluded to, based on angle of bank and dive angle.

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Trash
Problem is you're using the HUD. Second issue is you'd never want to mark up the optics on the HUD.
All airliners have radar altimeters as do most military aircraft. They too have limitations as alluded to, based on angle of bank and dive angle.
Good point, forgot about that...:rolleyes: stupid me!

NorCal Gameshow
02-14-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by LASERRAY
The air show at Point Mugu was alot better in the 70's and early 80's when they used to use live ammo. Every year they would launch a F-4 Drone and then shoot it down with a sidewinder missle(which was one of the many missles developed here in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) usually launched from an attacking F-14 Tomcat. These days it's all ground static displays and simulated pyrotechnic B.S.. They haven't had the Blue Angels in four or five years and the Thunderbirds haven't been here in two years. This year's show is no exception. No major Stunt team. I'll still go regardless just to see the other aircraft on hand.:cool:
I went there in the 70's, 80's and 90's always fun....last time we went the blue angels were there ...great show, good place to see it ...sucks to hear it's gone downhill.

LASERRAY
02-14-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by NorCal Gameshow
I went there in the 70's, 80's and 90's always fun....last time we went the blue angels were there ...great show, good place to see it ...sucks to hear it's gone downhill. Yea, I think it has alot more to do with budget cuts and the end of the cold war threat more then anything. Mugu may be on the up-coming base closure list which would be a major blow to the local economy. Point Mugu, and it's sister base Port Hueneme's Seabee base (a major deep water port and military installation) have been dodgeing the base closure axe for about 12 years now. I hope that they dodge this next round as they are the top employer in Ventura County.

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 10:28 PM
I think Calfornia has taken enough hits from closed bases. Hell about 2/3 have closed in the state. I hope Mr. Mugu stays open too!

NorCal Gameshow
02-14-2004, 10:33 PM
it seems cali get screwed often ....and we pay for it...what we put into the federal pie isn't close to what we get out...

Dr. Eagle
02-14-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by NorCal Gameshow
it seems cali get screwed often ....and we pay for it...what we put into the federal pie isn't close to what we get out...
Yeah, we get hosed pretty good here...:rolleyes:

LASERRAY
02-14-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
Yeah, we get hosed pretty good here...:rolleyes: Always! We're to busy hugging tree's here, cracking back on law abiding gun owners, and allocating funds for welfare to worry about the base closures and the effect that it has on the local economy:mad:

rrrr
02-14-2004, 11:00 PM
Here's a bit more info and discussion about MSL altimeter settings..
F-16.net (http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article968.html)

HBjet
02-15-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by stoker
Was that at El Toro? I was at an air show about 15 years ago when a plane did the exact same thing. Sad part was acouple of dickheads in front of us started laughing. The pilot survived but was messed up bad.
I was there too, it was an F-18 Hornet doing a solo act. Will never forget it.
HBjet

Jordy
02-15-2004, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Eagle
I wonder how the pilot did, he ejected seconds before impact.
If that is the one i'm thinking of, he ejected like half a second before impact and came out somewhat battered, but alive and kicking...