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Unchained
01-20-2002, 12:14 PM
I talked (through email) to a midwest jet boater a while back who told me he had 30k in his blower engine. He wasn't a racer, just recreational use. I think he was shocked/insulted when I told him there were about 14k to 15k of parts in it so I did this parts cost study. I got most of the prices from the Summit catalog. http://www.childsdale-ind-prop.com/enginepartsstudy.jpg
Additional assembly would involve installing heads, intake manifold, etc.

BOOSTDADDY
01-20-2002, 12:32 PM
Unchained- where is the machine work? A block is never ready to go! What about the balance for the rotating assembly? Was it Blue Printed?
your study is a good one. And yes you can slap parts together! If you want an engine to perform and be troouble free, every little detail has to be checked and a lot of times corrected, especially with after market parts!

flattie
01-20-2002, 01:54 PM
I just added up my reciepts I have $18,600 & don't even have the engine back from the speed shop yet or the aluminum head I want. I will end up with a bigger number yet. I'm just a 25year old kid wanting to piss the fisher men off in the river by my house with 100mph throttle passes! Yeah ha!

Unchained
01-20-2002, 04:44 PM
Boostdaddy, I put in the price of the prepped and finish honed block. The price of balancing is on line 23. This study is figuring that the average gearhead can assemble the rest after the engine builder balances and assembles the short block.

Flat Screwd
01-20-2002, 08:12 PM
I think you where extremelly fair with the parts used Merlin block, Brotix heads, Lunati crank, Je pistons. Man we know whos got the deep pockets in your part of the woods.
Man I'm a TRW FORGED blower pistons $400, 454 4 bolt block $500, swap meet 4.25 stroke crank that will clean up at .020-.030 $350, 990 cast heads with a mild clean up, stianless valves high lift springs $850, hyd. cam with lifters $350, polished weined 871 $2300. Bla,Bla,Bla kind of man.

superdave013
01-20-2002, 09:11 PM
That's a pretty good build sheet.
A few things missing like o ringing the block, head studs and main bearing cap studs. At least my Merlin didn't come with any of that. But that's not anything big ticket.
A few other things like the ignition box, alternator with mounting hardware and pulley. Oil filter adapter. An ARP bolt kit will be needed too. Need a good fuel pump & regulator for that baby.
You might want a larger oil pan but that's not much more money.
Is that ATI balancer and crank double keyed? I had to pay extra for that on my set up.
The little things can add up pretty quick.
My Dart 360 cost allot more than those heads by the time they were ported and had the inconal valves installed. Then I had to have them polished just to look pimpin too.
My crank and rods cost more too. I used a 4.5" Valasco and Carrillo rods and I know it's over kill. I pay a little extra as I don't mail order much. I support my local speed shop and get he knowlage along with it.
You can get your stuff balanced and assembled for a good price that's for sure.
All and all you got all of the big stuff for a kick ass river engine. And you didn't use any junk!
That's some pretty good reserch you did there. Now are you placing your order?

Unchained
01-21-2002, 05:03 AM
I don't need an engine, I still have the Arias. I just wanted to make the point that here is the majority of the costs to build a good strong blower motor. No one should pay 25 or 30k for an engine with 15k of parts in it.

058
01-21-2002, 09:14 AM
Unchained, At $25-30K aren't they paying for a "name"?

DetroitJim
01-21-2002, 02:26 PM
Andy at Jomar Oval track/ Offshore engines in Detroit will build an 800 horse dynoed blown 509 with new GM block, Dart 360's, 8-71 carbs and ignition for $15,000. Now if you want to go down the road to Sterling, that's a different story.

RumRunner
01-21-2002, 06:26 PM
Your numbers are close, but you're paying for the expertise of a good engine builder, they're not just going to give you their knowledge for free, and most will do more work at that point to calibrate and make sure everything is built to there standards of what they know works properly.
Yes most gear heads can slap a motor together, than take it to an engine builder the next season to fix it because they didn't know some of the little tricks to help the motor work.
Why is it you can buy the same parts that go into an engine the Sterling, Pfaff, or Eickert build but the don't run the same ?

Unchained
01-22-2002, 05:09 AM
Ok, Add to my estimate $ 50 per hour for 40 hours for a pro engine builder to assemble the remainder of the engine. He should be able to be very meticulous with 40 hours to assemble an engine. Top fuel teams assemble an engine in about 1 hour. That still only adds 2k to the price. There still is a lot of money on the table to get to 30k. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to state the facts. In my mind if I used the same parts as the high price guys I should be able to get the same results.

DetroitJim
01-22-2002, 02:21 PM
Here are some of the things that engine builders do for all that money:
Check actual stroke and indexing of crank
Balance with bobweight for specific RPM range
Deburr and hand blend all internal parts
Radius, blend, modify oil passages
Degree each and every cam lobe
Plateau hone with plate, main caps torqued, engine mounts installed, coolant circulating in block at operating temperature
Hand scrape and lap cam bearings
Hand fit crankshaft oil scraper
File fit rings
Modify oil return for reduced windage
Custom length pushrods
Thermal coat pistons and chambers
Port match intake to match heads in assembled position
Offset head dowels
Modify chambers, piston tops, ports, etc.
Break in on dyno
Rejet, alter air bleeds, pump shooters, etc.
Modify advance curve
Retorque everything
Guarantee power specified
Guarantee compliance with racing class rules
And a lot more. In my opinion, if you want to win races, go to a race shop but the average guy can build a motor that will work fine for non competition use.

Janky
01-22-2002, 04:23 PM
Can't we all just get along???
I personally would rather have a pro put it together and pay the extra cash even if it is just for recreation cause flagging down a fellow boater to tow you in suck some serious azz. I would rather enjoy my boat that much more and not have to wrench on it as much. The probuilt motor in my mind would pay for itself in reliability alone. I had a friend put a motor together himself and screwed up a couple times on things that were just plain stupid. Things that just seemed obvious afterward and would not have been overlooked had it been done by a pro. 25K to 30K sounds good to me, but I am just a poser so what would I know......

RumRunner
01-22-2002, 05:58 PM
What decade are we working in that anyone has a $50/HR rate ??? Your more than welcome to have a Top Fuel team build your engine, since it only has to last about 4-1/2 seconds and then most of it gets turned into scrap.
Bottom line you still get what you pay for

Racing Ray
01-22-2002, 06:09 PM
.
[This message has been edited by Racing Ray (edited March 12, 2002).]

Unchained
01-22-2002, 07:37 PM
Janky, We're getting along just fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone has valuable input.
Rumrunner, Change my labor estimate add on to $100 per hour for 20 hours.
Detroit Jim, are you going to the Hot Boat assn. winter party on Feb. 16 in Midland?

DetroitJim
01-22-2002, 08:08 PM
Maybe, depends on a few things related to the new woman and the proximity of that weekend to Feb. 14. Capisce?

Flat Screwd
01-22-2002, 09:25 PM
Dam Detroit I think you have gone over the edge. Your crank grinder should check and fix any eregularities. Heck they will even polish and peen it if you want them to. But I'm sure that Lunati has already done that. After all thats why we paid $1200. Debur all moving parts? the crank has already been finnished, I dont know what there is to debur on a set of BME Alm. rods or even any good steel rods. Hell Lanuti, Crower or any of them for that matter all come pollished and peened. Even ballanced.When you buy reputable parts you pay extra for for these thing already done. Degree each cam lobe! Get out of town.For instance you just paid Clay Smith to grind you a killer solid roller and then you check it and its off .0015 lift on one lobe and off 3 seconds of a degree on the intakes. SO WHAT. What are you going to do , send it back and demand a new one. I mean after all you might degree the cam straight up but you know just as well is me that by the time you do your first oil change the cam is retarded . Theres a certain amount of slop that goes unnoticed, hell might even help for that matter, like low tension rings , or that extra .002 cylinder clearance.
Now not to say that your list of extras are a waste of money , but I dont thint that you , me or anybody for that matter could drive in a boat and tell the differance between a motor that has its oil passages debured and one that doesnt.
Just saying that Unchained is very fair in his list and that to pay extra 10,000 for a list of shit that really wont be noticed on the water is money ill spent.

Infomaniac
01-23-2002, 07:32 AM
Unchained You are correct with your intentions. I have always wondered why people pay that kind of money for an engine. I have 9,000 in mine. 9.00 per HP. If someone has 30,000 to buy an engine, the cost probably does not matter to them. If you are not capable of desiging and building it yourself, you need the peace of mind that comes with a professionally built engine.

DetroitJim
01-23-2002, 12:48 PM
Flat Screwd, You are absolutely correct, nobody could tell the difference out on the lake. My point was that if you want to race and win in a class with strict rules, not just an ET bracket, you go to a race engine builder. 10 or 20 horsepower can mean the difference in winning or qualifying. That would be the only reason to spend the money. Which is why I agreed with Unchained and said:
"In my opinion, if you want to win races, go to a race shop but the average guy can build a motor that will work fine for non competition use."
DJ

Flat Screwd
01-23-2002, 07:16 PM
Sorry Detroit , I guess I didnt read that part. Still friends right?