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john540
11-20-2001, 09:57 AM
Hello ALL
there were some guys looking for intercoolers or want some info on some, I have what you need,Email me @ indyjoe73@msn.com or if you who know some one who needs one post info or e mail me.

Unchained
11-20-2001, 10:57 AM
I have a general intercooler question.
If the air flow speed through the intercooler at WOT is 100 mph (wild guess) at 230 degrees (another guess), and the intercooler is 4" thick such as a superchiller. How much can the intercooler reduce the air temperature ?

Unchained
11-22-2001, 06:39 AM
HEY INTERCOOLER GURU WHERE'S MY INFO ? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

superdave013
11-22-2001, 07:17 AM
Unchained, First off air flow is measured in feet per second most of the time.
Second, I put some thermocouples above and below my superchiller. I was seeing about 97 deg temp drop. That was with a 461" running at around 8,800 rpm making 28psi. I was force feeding the intercooler with a -10 pick-up mounted on the cave plate. The boat was running 127mph. The water temp was pretty cold that day (by So Cal standards) but I didn't measure it (should have).
I thought the temp drop was pretty good myself. I didn't measure the differential pressure across the intercooler. I should have and next time I get a chance I will.
[This message has been edited by superdave013 (edited November 22, 2001).]

Unchained
11-23-2001, 06:02 AM
Wow, 97 degree temp drop, I would have only guessed 10 or 15 deg. What was your air temp going into the top of the intercooler?
What do you think the air flow speed was ?
When you said the differential pressure do you mean the boost pressure drop caused by the decrease in air temp?
What happened to intercooler GURU ?

superdave013
11-23-2001, 11:55 AM
When I get back from the river this weekend I will see if I can dig up all the info I did back then. I wrote that kind of stuff right on the time slips.
Differential Pressure across the intercooler is basically the amount of pressure that is dropped (or lost) across the intercooler.
For the air flow speed, Let me find out what the inlet temp was. Then I will be able to correct the air flow for temperature.
I'm using the same intercooler on my turbo engine. I plan to put test ports above it and below it. I will be able to get much better data the second time around.
Oh, by the way. I am no engine / cyld head air flow guru. I do size duct and do allot of air flow stuff for industrial applications. And I work with allot of industrial heat exchangers.
Your inlet temps will most likly be allot lower as you boost might not be as high. I was spinning an 8-71 @ 30% over. They make lots of heat when you crank them up like that. I would have been better off with a 14-71 turning slower but still making the same amount of boost. Bigger is better with roots type of blowers.

Flat Screwd
12-18-2001, 08:25 PM
This is a great topic seeing how I'm building a 871 blowen 427 chev for my Hondo flat. Holly crap I almost fell out of my chair when I read a 97 degree drop My guess would have been like Unchained maybe 10 to15 degrees. If you hav'nt guessed yet this is be first blower motor.

Unchained
12-19-2001, 06:09 AM
I think Superdave had a typo and it was actually a 9.7 degree temp drop with the intercooler. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif I can't believe that given the speed of the airflow through that thin intercooler it could reduce the temp that much. I had hoped that the intercooler Guru that started this thread would provide some backup facts. I have never run an intercooler because I questioned the effectiveness of the sandwich units that are on the market.Maybe with some facts it would change my mind. OK INTERCOOLER GURU PROVE ME WRONG !!. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/tongue.gif

sgdiv7
12-19-2001, 08:35 AM
Hey unchained, I believe Superdaves #'s are close. look at how small a heater core is air temp is with in 20 deg. of water temp and heater cores are 1" thick, chillers 4" thick and you control water temp so what do you think?
I think it would be cheep HP. what do think? Plus they look cool. Buy me one and i'll tell you how it works, lol
Bill

superdave013
12-19-2001, 09:41 AM
I stand by my #'s. I'm not selling them and have nothing to gain if you buy one or not.
Like I said, I'll redo the test when I get the turbo engine complete.
The intercoolers made by whipple will really blow your mind. They cost more but are the ones to buy.
sgdiv7, Not only will you gain HP but will burn pistons less too!

Unchained
12-19-2001, 12:53 PM
sgdiv7, I guess the main doubt that I have about the effectiveness of the intercooler is because of the airflow speed. At WOT the air is in and out of that 4" thick intercooler in a fraction of a second. It's hard for me to believe that the air could be cooled by almost 100 degrees in a fraction of a second. Now at idle speed it would be a different story because the air speed is so slow. Then the 97 degree temp drop is more believable. Just my opinion.

Flat Screwd
12-19-2001, 09:12 PM
Yah. If you think of refridgeration you cool "compressed" gas and then "release" it back to relative atmosphere than sure with out a doubt. But the air presure is equal on both sides of the cooler. So the only way that this could work was if the temp in the blower was much hotter than ambiant temp. Which it should be " compressed air = compressed heat molicules." Than cooled by water that is much cooler by comparison . And than again all this has to take place in a fraction of a second. Sounds like a chiller is more efficient at idle." less boost temp and a slower trip through.

058
12-20-2001, 09:33 AM
Don't forget, as it cools the air molecules group together and it slows down within the intercooler compounding the effect. 97 deg drop doesn't sound far fetched to me. For more proof check the power output of a turbocharged engine with and without an intercooler, can be as much as 30% or more.

Unchained
12-21-2001, 05:55 AM
058, I think intercoolers as a whole are a great idea. It's just the 4" thick sandwich models that I question the capability of. It seems that to be effective the intercooler needs a lot of surface area for the air flow to cover to reduce the temp in a short time span. The intercooler in my Ford diesel pickup is huge, bigger than the radiator. The air flow has to pass through many feet of cooling fins. With the sandwich model intercooler the air passes through 4" of cooling fins. Yes, I know that one uses water and the other uses air. I can't believe that through the time span of this thread no one has produced any dyno figures or printouts to show the performance of the 4" sandwich intercooler.

superdave013
12-21-2001, 08:22 AM
Unchained, I sent a link to this thread to the guys at PFM. Let's see if they respond. Sorry I don't have any dyno data. I never put mine on the dyno. I do have time slips but made so many other changes that it would be hard to tell just how much the intercooler helped.
Oh, the core of a superchiller is more like 3" thick, the housing is 4".
If it makes you feel better here is a pic of Mike Hobans GN boat. He ran two of them. The Hobans did lots of testing and worked pretty close with the PFM guys. This boat was last years national champ. GN boats run 15 min. heats. The sad thing is I took this pic right before he crashed the boat and was killed! That was a great loss to GN racing!
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/013/61/Mu/IF/hs21935.jpg

Unchained
12-22-2001, 05:19 AM
Thanks SD, If the guys at PFM respond with some impressive facts I'll eat some crow and that's fine. I've been wrong before. If they don't respond it'll be because they don't have any impressive facts to show. I'm glad you don't offend easily, I need to meet you someday. It sounds like you have been a lifetime gearhead like me.
Mark
Trying a pic with my new camera
http://www.childsdale-ind-prop.com/540Arias.jpg
[This message has been edited by Unchained (edited December 22, 2001).]

superdave013
12-22-2001, 08:13 AM
Holy shit! Look at that nice block!
Now all you need it a real fuel system and one of these sexy, efficient, hp increasing, and parts saving intercoolers. haha At least you have the little pully on the top!
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/033/RY/Lh/fP/U273984.jpg
[This message has been edited by superdave013 (edited December 22, 2001).]

Whipple Charged
01-10-2002, 09:29 PM
Superdave is pretty darn accurate, I have some comparison numbers for you that are real, here's the specifics: 540ci tall deck, 1071 Littlefield, 8:1 compression, aluminum dart heads, hydr. roller cam, setup for 12lbs. of boost @ 6000 rpm, discharge temp was consistently around 210-220 Farenheit, all were fed by similar water flows at similar temps.
Average manifold temps below the intercooler:
Superchiller 155
Lee Intercooler 109
Whipple Cooler 98
Intercooler thickness means very little, theres so much more to it, how turbulent the water is, how much fin area, louvered or straghit fins, etc. The Superchiller casting is 4", but the core is only approx. 2.5", the Lee is approx. 3". Intercoolers also have effective curves. So, a person running 28psi through their intercooler should have a discharge temp well in the 300's under steady state, so taking 100 degrees out of it would not be a large amount, I would hope to get somewhere near 25 F of ambient with the proper cooler but packaging can always be an issue. We use to use the old Gentry intercooler that was 6" thick and was made for tubros, man oh man did that thing cool. Superdave, if your using a turbo system, I would check one of those out, huge cooling capacity. If you want to ask somebody, talk to Gary Teague at 909.982.8391, he's used a lot of them on turbo race ski boats.
There's so much BS out there on intercoolers, I can't believe some of the crap I've heard, some from other mfgs. If you want the real scoop, ask me and I'll get you the correct info.
Hope this helps everybody,
Dustin

superdave013
01-11-2002, 12:03 PM
Dustin, If you're the person I think you are it's good to see you posting on Hot Boat now. I used to read your posts on AZ ***boat and you always had good info. I would love to get one of those Gentry intercoolers. I will call Gary and see if he has a used one.

Unchained
01-11-2002, 01:36 PM
Whipple, Thanks for the info. I guess I have to eat some crow as I doubted the effectiveness of the intercooler. I am now hitting myself in the head with a book for punishment. Maybe it's an item I need to put on the list of additional performance parts needed. Superdave was right after all. It's just if I put one on I may need a blinking light to warn airplanes of my increased height. With your test engine what is the airflow speed through the intercooler at the 6000 rpm test?

superdave013
01-11-2002, 05:58 PM
Unchained, The ones made by Whipple superchargers are pretty thin. It is hard to believe that they work as well as they do but they are the best ones out right now.
Oh, just so you know, Whipple is Dustin Whipple of Whipple superchargers and he really knows his shit.

Whipple Charged
01-12-2002, 11:37 AM
superdave,
Thanks, I really appreciate that, I need you to tell that to my girlfriend, she says I don't know shit http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
As for our coolers being thin, their actually 2.5" thick, approx. 9" wide, and 12" long which is larger than the Lee or Superchiller. We casted an intake manifold and made the intercooler so it sits in the open chambered manifold, it sits right above the ports on the intake. The core is held by an 1/8" stainless flange and the front water fittings that go through the intake. Not only that, the fins are split or louvered, which gives it more fin square area. We have 24 fins per inch, a Lee has approx. 12 per inch and I'm guessing, but I think the Superchiller is around 8 or 10 per inch. So, taking this into account, along with the actual core size, ours is massive when compared to the Superchiller. Same thickness, yet over twice the amount of square area for cooling. Not only that, the fins are made of pure copper which is twice as efficient as aluminum, then the water passages are made of cupronickel which will never corrode, no matter what.
Unchained, we didn't have a turbine or room too measure air speed out of the intercooler.
Thanks,
Dustin

superdave013
01-12-2002, 02:32 PM
Whipple, If you know the discharge temp (you do), and the SCFM that the blower is producing it is easy to calculate the ACFM.
ACFM= SCFM X (temp + 460/530)
ACFM X 60= actual cubic feet per second
Hey, keep Peter Guy out of trouble. haha

Dimarco Kid
01-12-2002, 08:54 PM
Hey Dustin,
What's ball park price on your intercooler for a square port big Chevy? Also, does your cooler affect height in any way? Thanks for all the help you have given so far.
D Kid

Whipple Charged
01-14-2002, 10:04 PM
Superdave,
We weren't measuring the CFM from the dual Dominators, we know a rough calculation, but it was a roots and we weren't too worried about it.
Dkid, our intercooler starts at $2995. Height really depends on what you have now, usually 1" taller for a standard 671-1071.
Thanks,
Dustin

Rexone
02-10-2004, 01:36 AM
bump....
another intercooler thread from the archives