Air Conditioning question

[AzDon]

Havasu got a 22% electric rate increase this year and because the summer A/C season is coming up, I've got some questions about availability of devices that I believe would boost efficiency of my home a/c unit and cut electricity usage.
I'm wondering if liquid-to-liquid heat exchangers exist for a/c retrofit that either replace the a/c's condenser and fan or work in tandem with it. I think I could run a loop with 2 of these. The first unit would pre-heat the cold water going to my water heater. The second would have my pool water circulated thru it. If anyone knows availability and cost on such a system, I'm interested!

[Sleek-Jet]

I know there are some companies that sell Heat Pump/AC combo units. The heat pump cools the air before it goes to the AC, therefore making the AC work less. Works the other way in the winter, cuts down on heating costs as well.

[Mandelon]

Check with TPC, that's his specialty.

[rrrr]

Don, you are looking for a "ground source heat pump" It uses water as a heat rejection medium instead of air. They have a domestic water preheater, and the condenser water loop is buried underground. The loop piping is a serpentine affair to get maximum exposure to the ground heat sink.
If you ran the thing to your pool it could be used in the winter only. Heck, my pool gets so hot in the summer I have been thinking about installing a heat pump with a water exchanger evaporator so I could cool it in the summer and heat it in the winter.
They cost around $4K, plus the installation costs of burying the condenser piping.
I can build one for a lot cheaper, but it'll have to wait until I retire....:p
Trane website (http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/GroundSource/GroundSourcePage.asp)

[spectratoad]

I just put one of the ground source heat pumps in one our armories here in Reno. It is a much larger scale than a house but works the same.
The cost of our power savings have dropped I am told. I have not seen past use compared to now.
It is a pretty cool system. Out loops are installed vertically in 300 foot deep wells. There are 19 of them. You can find alot of info on the net about it.

[AzDon]

I'm picturing something FAR simpler and more compact! Visualize a 55 gallon drum with the cooler water going thru it and containing freon coils. First drum would be cold water feed for my water heater, and the second drum would have pool water circulated past the second stage of coils. I'm thinking the freon would be so cool after these loops that the condenser would actually ADD heat if it was after this loop!

[rrrr]

Originally posted by AzDon
I'm picturing something FAR simpler and more compact! Visualize a 55 gallon drum with the cooler water going thru it and containing freon coils. First drum would be cold water feed for my water heater, and the second drum would have pool water circulated past the second stage of coils. I'm thinking the freon would be so cool after these loops that the condenser would actually ADD heat if it was after this loop!
Yeah, you could do that. The compressor discharge (hot gas line) would go to the heat exchangers, and then back to the condenser coil in the outdoor unit.

[summerlove]

For chrissake Don, you can't post something rationale like this! ;)
Send Dave Kahn (Kahn Job (has many v-drives) an email at Dkahnjob@aol.com That's his business and he'll be happy to help. Tell him I sent you! Good luck.
Now a question I have - in the summer, I turn off the water heater and the water still comes out so HOT it's almost unbearable. Any way to make that cooler????

[RiverRatMike]

I live here in Havasu and my electric bill never changed. Are you sure about that increase?

[TrojanDan]

Originally posted by RiverRatMike
I live here in Havasu and my electric bill never changed. Are you sure about that increase?
I was just about to post the same thing. I think the 22% increase went through late Spring/early Summer last year and was connected to the sale of the electric utility company.

[Dr. Eagle]

You could buy evaporative pre-cooler pads. If I remember correctly that increases your efficiency by about 15-20%. It has been a while but I had to use them in a data center where they kept adding load over and above the design. So we added pre-cooler pads and it worked like a charm.

[AzDon]

Originally posted by RiverRatMike
I live here in Havasu and my electric bill never changed. Are you sure about that increase?
They phased in the increase AFTER the summer season last year. It is not shown as an actual increase in the rate, but is shown as PPFAC at .0182500 per kWh......a seperate assesment! The back of the bill defines PPFAC as "Purchased Power Fuel Adjuster Clause". To put it simply: Unisource purchased Citizen's Electric including a huge deficit from the fake energy crisis a couple of years ago. Citizen's had been keeping this deficit seperate on their books and couldn't figure out what to do with it. Unisource's purchase offer was contingent on ACC approval of a special rate assesment to take care of this negative balance.
They have done everything possible to mask and minimize the impact of this, but when the summer electric bills come this year, the crying around here is going to be louder than the boats on the lake!

[BoatPI]

Yes it was late last year.
But make sure you first have a high SEER unit. Like 13 or above. What you are contemplating is expensive, and would take many years to make it cost effective. If you do not have it, wise money should be spent on a whole house cooling system. Some like Master Cool, I have a Phoenix brand unit. Aside from high humidity days, like monsoons, and when the temp exceeds 110 degrees, it works great. It seems to use about 10% of the KW usage than the 14 SEER new A/C unit I have. Adds humidity to the house so sleeping at night is improved. It connects to the same ducts as the central A/C.

[AzDon]

We already have a mastercool (swamp cooler) unit on the roof next to the a/c. It doesn't work very well when the temps exceed 100 degrees. Part of the problem could be that the units are not shaded.
Summer's cold water runs hot because the pipes are in the attic.
One day when I was watching the meter wheel while someone was showering, I started to wonder why I use electricity to ADD heat to water while my a/c unit uses electricity to REMOVE heat from freon. I also considered the heat removal possibilities of my swimming pool.

[Sleek-Jet]

Why not look into putting solar in to offset the daytime electric demand. I can put you in touch with someone who could help you out.