500 HP Bravo1- To Whipple or not... Stoker SST 224

[jackpunx]

Hi all,
I have had a jet boat for about 13 years. I decided to upgrade and got myself the new Stoker 224 SST. I was looking for a big top end and safety at high speeds. Per the stokerÂ’s reputation Â… it delivers.. I had 4 people , a cooler and about 35 gallons of fuel .. According to the Speedo.. 87mph.. I purchased this boat from Al Stoker .. it was his first production IO. He did a lot of testing on this boat, with a different prop and a lot of room he has a pic of the Speedo at 98mph. And with this prop it should do low 90Â’s in the right conditions. My question isÂ… Coming from a jet boat IÂ’m really addicted to the thrust. I know that this boat is a bit bigger and heaver ..but it just seems underpowered. I want to put a Whipple SC on it to increase low to midrange power.. I have got a lot of mixed messages about what will happen to my engine and drive. I know how to roll on the gas and baby a boat.. but I want to be able to let it rip as well. Am I going to be rebuilding my engine and drive before the summer ends?..
Thanks in advance for your time
[ July 23, 2003, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: jackpunx ]

[bordsmnj]

the red one that was at his shop for a while? that is a nice frickin' boat either way. bravo ones are only rated for around 500 hp tops . a whipple on that motor would add like another 150hp(at least!) to what ever you got there all ready. liking thrust and babying the thing seem to me like to different things. your gonna blow that drive out might as well change it while installing the blower and save your self the head ache of being stranded. then you could enjoy thrust worry free- well kinda,i think 90 mph is fast enough! :D if it were my money i'd do some prop testing of my own before a rebuild.
i used to dream about the red one!

[jackpunx]

I saw the red one.. he was in the process of selling it while I was there .. I got the Yellow one that is on his website http://stokerboats.com/boat224sst.htm.. its a new deck.. the red one is a 22.. this is a 224...
Since I have posted.. I talked to Al. he is pretty comfortable with running on this drive with some after market upgrades.. He has a few customers that have 7 - 800 HP on a bravo 1 going on 2 seasons now.. Your absolutely right.. 90+ is fast.. and it puckers my @@s .. I imagine as a by-product of the extra power.. that 90+ number will change as well.. but I would really like to get to about 70 a bit quicker.. IÂ’m going to try my buddies custom 26 prop this weekend and see how much top end I loose.. Ultimately.. IÂ’m really leaning towards the 30 with the extra power.. I think it will be a great match.. I was told there is a lot of experience on these boards.. so I wanted to put it out there and see what you guys have to say.. I really appreciate the time.
Thanks
Mark

[mbrown2]

Not sure if your motor is EFI or Carb, but that Whipple will get you to 700+ HP. I used to have a Whipple on a 502 and it really woke the boat up...Acceleration was great....700HP with a 30" on that boat should get you some great acceleration...maybe not like the jet, but pretty quick...That boat will do 95 with a stock 500HP, so modified it is going to be a pretty dam quick boat...make sure you run conservative boost on the whipple 5-6 lbs and you should be ok.

[jackpunx]

Awesome! Im running a carb. What do you think about the Bravo1 with that HP?
How long did you have that motor with the Whipple set up.. I have been getting mixed answers on the life of the motor after S/C.. They say because the 500hp is hand built and has all the right parts.. it should be ok.. Is that your experience?
Thanks

[mbrown2]

The boat had approximately 60Hours on it before we sold it. All those hours with the Whipple. Recently the new owner has had issues with the motor, but the issues are not pointing back to the Whipple. Also, in determining the fix, DCB, GT and Teague both say to the put the motor back together with the whipple. With conservative boost, the combo presents no issues. Also, the internals are even better in the HP500 than the 502.
We also were running 502/Whipple (600HP approx) on a stock bravo 1 with drive shower...so 60 hours on a Bravo 1 with that HP is pretty good. We kind of felt the drive would go sooner or later, but I was gentle on coming on plane or if I left the water in the rough. With 700HP, I would look at upgrading your current drive with the Max Machine Worx upper kit, and when you have additional money have them do the lower kit as well. There are great drives out there, but if I were upgrading a Bravo 1 there stuff appears very solid.
[ July 24, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: mbrown2 ]

[XLGPP]

jackpunx:
Awesome! Im running a carb. What do you think about the Bravo1 with that HP?
How long did you have that motor with the Whipple set up.. I have been getting mixed answers on the life of the motor after S/C.. They say because the 500hp is hand built and has all the right parts.. it should be ok.. Is that your experience?
Thanks Jack, your are partially right, that motor was made to be blown... meaning the internals are set up for it, however a blower is always gonna greatly increase risk on your motor. I have an hp500 with a whipple and as stated above, if you keep the boost under 6lbs your still pretty safe. make sure and run 92+ octane.
as far as the drive, that is an everlasting debate. Lots a ppl run a bravo 1 forever with that set up and lots dont. I am not familiar with your hull, but I have a Cougar 27'MTR (about the lightest 27' cat you can get) and my XZ drive lasted only 2 seasons. I had to upgrade to an XR... And from the sounds of it, you drive like me (baby it, but sometimes wanna play)... I can tell you, no matter how much you baby your drive, at 90+mph in chop, your prop is coming in and out of the water with a shit ton of stress on your drive.

[bigq]

So how much power can an XR handle? Can you take a stock Bravo1 and upgrade the internals to make it an XR or is it cheaper to by, say IMCO parts?

[jackpunx]

ThatÂ’s a great question.. I should have an exact answer back by the middle of next week. The way Al was talking .. Im under the impression that it will be about the 3rd of the cost to beef up my bravo1 with after market parts compared to purchasing a new drive. I think he was referring to IMCO parts.. but not sure..

[mbrown2]

bigq:
So how much power can an XR handle? Can you take a stock Bravo1 and upgrade the internals to make it an XR or is it cheaper to by, say IMCO parts? You can upgrade a B1 to an XR, but it pays to shop around and call to find out what it would cost to do the Imco, Max Machine Worx, or XR upgrades to the B1...Also, you might be able to find an XR fresh for cheaper than what the upgrades cost...I am not sure what the HP limits are.

[XLGPP]

Jack... if you are interested I still have my shelled XZ drive.. If you have connections to re-build it I will sell it as-is cheap.

[jackpunx]

XLGPP:
Jack... if you are interested I still have my shelled XZ drive.. If you have connections to re-build it I will sell it as-is cheap. XL,,
thanks for asking.. Im new to I/O's so I would need to ask my builder.. but .. what is cheap?...

[jackpunx]

jackpunx:
XLGPP:
Jack... if you are interested I still have my shelled XZ drive.. If you have connections to re-build it I will sell it as-is cheap. XL,,
thanks for asking.. Im new to I/O's so I would need to ask my builder.. but .. what is cheap?... by the way.. I was looking at your boat.. its gorgeous!!.. I was looking at them before I purchased mine.... Rides like a dream.. I know yours does too... What size prop and gears do you run?

[Dave C]

That stoker looks pretty damn cool. Does it have the weird-looking tunnel bottom on it? How does that thing run in the "rough" water? (like Havasu rough)
I too came from a (NOS) jet boat thrust monster. The I/O won't compare to the acceleration of the jet but the I/O is so much more efficient at making a heavy boat go fast on the top end. There is no way I will go back to the jet! Not to mention the pimp factor of the new boat and the much better ride you receive.
I have an HP 500 too. I checked into the whipple and drive and most people I talked to said that its not a question of “if� the drive will blow but “when� it will blow. I talked to Max Machine works and they have an upgrade kit for the Bravo I that looks pretty damn good.
How fast are you going to go? Your close to 90 now. With the Whipple, your gonna fly (100 +).
I was looking at fine-tuning with some upgrades to squeeze some more mph out of what we have now, prop, fuel injection, MSD, vortec kit, etc. etc.
The whipple and drive upgrade is big bucks. I came up with $15,000 or more to get it “right�

[jackpunx]

Dave C:
That stoker looks pretty damn cool. Does it have the weird-looking tunnel bottom on it? How does that thing run in the "rough" water? (like Havasu rough)
I too came from a (NOS) jet boat thrust monster. The I/O won't compare to the acceleration of the jet but the I/O is so much more efficient at making a heavy boat go fast on the top end. There is no way I will go back to the jet! Not to mention the pimp factor of the new boat and the much better ride you receive.
I have an HP 500 too. I checked into the whipple and drive and most people I talked to said that its not a question of “if� the drive will blow but “when� it will blow. I talked to Max Machine works and they have an upgrade kit for the Bravo I that looks pretty damn good.
How fast are you going to go? Your close to 90 now. With the Whipple, your gonna fly (100 +).
I was looking at fine-tuning with some upgrades to squeeze some more mph out of what we have now, prop, fuel injection, MSD, vortec kit, etc. etc.
The whipple and drive upgrade is big bucks. I came up with $15,000 or more to get it “right� Hey Dave,
Yea its got the modified V bottom.. its a tunnel for the most part.. I am really just getting used to the way it handles.. but I must say, the more I get used to it.. the more I donÂ’t think about my jet.. The boat was tested on the "Havasu rough" with a bigger prop they GPSed it at just under 100mph.. With the stock 500hp and bravo1... With the prop I have on it now 28" 1:36 gear. I imagine in the right conditions it will run low 90's.. My buddy loaned me his 26" to try.. IÂ’m going to try it this weekend..
AS far as how fast I want to go.. well IÂ’m thinking that 100+ with the 28" prop will satisfy me.. Hopefully that wont wear off for a while.. They have had this hull up to 124mph.. IÂ’m not sure that makes sense for me... but.. Well .. You know how we are...

[XLGPP]

jackpunx:
jackpunx:
XLGPP:
Jack... if you are interested I still have my shelled XZ drive.. If you have connections to re-build it I will sell it as-is cheap. XL,,
thanks for asking.. Im new to I/O's so I would need to ask my builder.. but .. what is cheap?... by the way.. I was looking at your boat.. its gorgeous!!.. I was looking at them before I purchased mine.... Rides like a dream.. I know yours does too... What size prop and gears do you run? I run 1.5 gears and a 30" prop (Im at 4500ft elev) At Havasu I run out of prop, but Im only there once or twice a year.
As far as cheap, personally I think its easily worth $1500+, you could be in it for aprox $3500 fixed with beefy internals... But Im tired of it sitting around. I would let it go for $800 you pay shipping.
[ July 25, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: XLGPP ]

[NOCTURNAL]

We recently upgraded our 25 Commander (stock 454 mpi w/ Bravo 1) with new heads, a Whipple kit and an IMCO extension box. To do the drive and engine upgrades will cost you big dollars, but the outcome is well worth it.
We have to ease the throttle from idle, but the mid range acceleration to top end is awesome. The guys at Arizona Speed & Marine finished the install of the Whipple, calibrated the ECU and installed the extension box for us and the boat has not had any problems since we got it back a few months ago.
The Whipple kit alone is around $6000, and that only gets you started.

[carreraboat]

hey xlgpp give me your # i have someone that wants your drive

[Jrocket]

Ive got the complete Max Machine Worxs drive.40 hours on it and not one problem. :D

[XLGPP]

carreraboat:
hey xlgpp give me your # i have someone that wants your drive 505-496-0215 (CELL)
Aaron
who wants it? Bo got a project?
[ July 26, 2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: XLGPP ]

[Stoked]

jackpunx:
I also have a 224 the one in HB last year, I am very pleased with the boat. I did lots of home work on the Whipple system, talked to Dustin several times, and spoke to lots of people on the forums, it seems the only way to go. My boat has 28 hours on it and is waiting to be Whippled, at this point it is a case of cubic dollar deficiency, they are well worth the money but for some reason my wife thinks a roof, stucco, and custom brickwork is more important--go figure?
I usually run a worked 24 for skiing and playing with the family, the acceleration is very good but you need to be carfull not to push the rev. limiter. The prop is a blast only runs low 80's but the thrill factor is high. Great for running jet boats! If you decide to do it you gotta take me for a ride
Good Luck Steve

[NashvilleBound]

Jack, Heres my two cents.... I ran my Ultra 247 with the HP500EFI for the first year then added (by GT Performance) the Whipple SC for the second season. I was running @80 with water pickup. I now have the GPS and ran 87 with 6 adults, full fuel and a chit load of kahrap on board. I need to run WOT with just me and min loads....I estimate low 90's easy. I hope you have some tabs on that sled....you get up into that range you will need them! External steering for sure too. My XR drive is doing great. I upgraded from the XZ and have had zero problems. I personally think it's a good match. Everyone says easy on, easy off the throttle is the secret to longevity! Good luck with your project. The only problem you will have.......is how to wipe that wind blown smile off your face. NB

[bigq]

NashvilleBound:
I hope you have some tabs on that sled....you get up into that range you will need them! Tabs? It's not a V-Hull. wink How bad is the ultra at that speed, does it walk a lot?

[Stoked]

bigq:
All the Stokers come with fixed cav plates. The purpose is to get a little extra air packed under the boat. They have adjustable turnbuckles. Al actually gained 3 mph on mine by the twist of a wrench. Went from 97 to 100 on GPS with a HP500, running a worked 30 four blade. I still can't wait to get the Whipple for the accelaration.

[NashvilleBound]

I guess I missed that part :)
My Ultra is a little light after 85. In the water out here, where there are no wakes or swells, it will go WOT without any tabs. If its at all choppy, but still ok to run WOT, I will use a touch of tabs so it won't walk. I'm going to think there isn't much boat left in the water after 90. Hopefully weather will permit a few days on the lake so I can finally see what her top numbers are. Patience is not my strong point!

[jackpunx]

Stoked:
jackpunx:
The prop is a blast only runs low 80's but the thrill factor is high. Great for running jet boats! If you decide to do it you gotta take me for a ride
Good Luck Steve Well Gents,,,
I sold my jet boat this weekend for $10,700... Now I have to bribe the old lady.. and Im in with the S/C... When I get it done.. we should get together.. If your the boat Im thinking of.. Reading your article pretty much sealed the deal for me.. It was really sad to see the old jet go.. But .. Well.. I love the new boat.. but you know what I mean...
Nashville,
Do mind if I ask how much that whole upgrade cost?... I think IÂ’m going to add my Whipple.. Run it for the rest of the season on this drive.. Then upgrade the drive this winter..

[NashvilleBound]

The upgrade was @12k....but I did allot of little stuff too. I think the SC was 8 and the drive gears, XR, @2k...Good Luck

[jackpunx]

NashvilleBound:
The upgrade was @12k....but I did allot of little stuff too. I think the SC was 8 and the drive gears, XR, @2k...Good Luck Nashville,
Was that to have them do all the work? Install s/c, and upgrade drive?.. if thatÂ’s the case.. Its in my budget.. I was looking for them online.. CouldnÂ’t find em.. could you post me their number?
Thanks a lot

[Stoked]

jackpunx:
Good Luck with the wife. I came real close to buying your boat. A friend of mine is getting ready to buy a new 388 Hustler with a pair of custom built 540 Whipple Charged, 800HP Engines from Gary Teague. He contacted all the builders and has decided to with GT, I think NashvilleBound also went to GT and is very pleased. Al and Dustin have told me the boat will be a true E-ticket, that will accererate to 100 so quick that usually you come of the throttle before you get there--How sweet is that!
Keep me Posted Steve

[Stoked]

Gary Teague-GT Performance (909) 982-8391
gtperf@aviastar.net

[Stoked]

The E-mail in HB is not correct. It is
gtmarine.com

[NashvilleBound]

Yes, Gary did all the work and it was worth every penny to have him do it! He is the ONLY one I would ever have work on my sled. Facts be known he will be putting that Whipped 540 into my next Ultra which will most likely be the 27 Shadow.....I so wish I could get twins in there.... I have all the numbers and e mails too if those are not right, but they are in my truck. Let me know if you have any other questions. I always tell Gary "if this was your sled would you do this or what would you reccomend..." he is always very straight forward.
Good Luck, Jeff

[jackpunx]

Thanks for the info,
I talked to Phil from GT yesterday.. ItÂ’s going to be right around 12k for the upper drive and whipple. Very cool guy. I told them they came highly recommended from the message boards.. and also from my builder.. Looks like I will be going that direction.. I appreciate you guys pointing me there.. Now I just have to get a couple extra K to put in the boat and make sure the house isnÂ’t going to fall apart this winter.. Then IÂ’m golden.

[gmocnik]

just another vote for gt performance....
i have a gt built whippled 540 and had them (chad)do the b1 upgrade to xr gears etc...
second season on everything and no drama...
turn key...mash throttle...have fun....
good luck..
gary

[HP350SC]

I just bought a Stoker too. Mines a '97 22 HP500.Looks identical to the one on their website.I would have preferred the 224,but this one was in my price range.I paid 32,400 for it with 57 hrs. What do you guys think of the price?

[jackpunx]

HP350SC:
I just bought a Stoker too. Mines a '97 22 HP500.Looks identical to the one on their website.I would have preferred the 224,but this one was in my price range.I paid 32,400 for it with 57 hrs. What do you guys think of the price? That is a great price.. I looked for stokers and only found one for sale with an IO.. the ones I did find were very expensive.... I think I know the one your talking about.. is it the one from a dealer in San Berdu?.. Either way.. I Almost paid double what you paid.. but .. I got exactly what I was looking for... Hopefully you did too.. Any day on the lake is much better then talking about it on the board.
by the way.. the one on the website is the one I bought.
the guys here on the bord have guided me in the right direction for my upgrades.. So use them if you have any questions.
Good luck

[HP350SC]

Jackpunx- Yep,thats it. Haven't got to drive it yet,sea water pump impeller was shot.I'm putting it together tonight to try it out.I picked up a 28p Hydromotive 4 blade from local dealer to try out. I'm going to add external steering this winter,then will look at adding a blower.Where are your power hatch switches located?Some bozo put 2 toggles laying loose under the seat. I'll probably relocate to the dash.

[jackpunx]

Everything for me is on the dash to my left.. and the gauges are in the middle.. You should call Al Stoker and tell him you got his boat.. He will give you all the advice you need.. I have had nothing but positive things to say about the whole stoker fam..

[Stoked]

HP350SC:
Sounds like an unreal deal, good for you! Are you sure it is a HP500. The only person that rigs Stoker boats is Al Stoker himself. Al wouldn't let a boat leave his shop rigged without dual steering on that boat, the risk is to great. I have owned 2 of Al's boats and he is very knowledgeable, I would give him a call before you even put it in the water. Please don't take me the wrong way, just trying to help.
Steve

[HP350SC]

Yes it is a carb. HP500. The 22 has the exhaust lower on the transom than the 224 which makes it more difficult according to Al. I just got back from first time out.Ran 85mph at 5000 according to Gaffrig speedo.This was 5 people and 52 gal. gas! I love this boat already.If you go to the website and click on the 22 and then on inboard/outboard icon it shows the exact boat as mine.I think I got an excellent buy,I too was looking for a 224 used for sale and initially was confused about the 22 and 224.They have the same bottom half of the hull,but the 224 has a taller top deck.Anyway,keep in touch as I will be following the upgrades,later!

[HP350SC]

Took boat out last night,got 90mph on Gaffrig.This was 2 people and 40 gal. gas. rpm was 5100.These Stoker boats are great,I waited too long to sell the old boat,I love this shit! Haven't tried another prop yet,seems to be ok for now. Runs rich at idle though,maybe power valve or setup.

[Stoked]

HP350SC:
I always liked the graphics on your boat, nice colors, I saw the boat when it originally left Stokers shop. Back then I had a SST 20 with a 225 ran 87mph stock, moved up to a 224 last year. great boat to drive, very responsive. What kind of prop and gears are you running? The boat loves a 6" chop. glass will slow down the boat 3 mph. Good luck and be safe.
Steve

[HP350SC]

Stoked- Ratio is 1:36 and the prop is a 27 Hydomotive 4 blade. I was wondering what my boat sold for new,probably considerably less than the 224 since it's kind of a "naked" boat without external steering,swim steps and cleats.I'm going to start a couple of threads about cleats and external trim indicators,since I am lacking both.Also looking at upgrading the switch panel on dash to one of the new Rex Marine blue anodized pieces.Also going to start a thread on possible performance upgrades to the HP500 other than supercharging since it's nice buying regular octane fuel for a change.

[NashvilleBound]

HP350SC:
Also going to start a thread on possible performance upgrades to the HP500 other than supercharging since it's nice buying regular octane fuel for a change. They only reccomend 91 when the Whipple is installed. If you can't get it the 89 will work but they, once again, reccomend you dont go WOT to hard. I find 93 at all the stations out here in TN so when I fuel on the lakes with 89 I try to have a half tank to mix the two...
So far so good....The Whipple and HP is a great pair!

[jackpunx]

Well...
I just ordered my whipple.. IÂ’m like a little kid before Christmas... IÂ’m going through GT Performance.. They are giving me the full XR upgrade/new prop... I ordered it today. If he gets the parts by the 8th.. then he (Phil) said he would have it done by the hot boat poker run.. 27th and 28th..
IÂ’m going to need a new Speedo.. What a bummer ha ha
:D
[ August 25, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: jackpunx ]

[Well Done]

Jackpunx....You're gonna love the Whipple. Mine is a Quad Rotor Whipple on a 540 with 2 prosystem custom built 1050 dominators in a 23' cat making 1000+HP. The Whipple will pin ya to the seat! :D

[Jrocket]

jackpunx:
Well...
I just ordered my whipple.. IÂ’m like a little kid before Christmas... IÂ’m going through GT Performance.. They are giving me the full XR upgrade/new prop... I ordered it today. If he gets the parts by the 8th.. then he (Phil) said he would have it done by the hot boat poker run.. 27th and 28th..
IÂ’m going to need a new Speedo.. What a bummer ha ha
:D You have just made an excellent choice! Enjoy. :D

[Stoked]

jackpunx:
Thats great! I know a few other guys with 224's are blown but I don't think they are anywhere near the us. I have been told the acceleration is scarey, from 0-100. Let me know all the details: expected numbers, acceleration, prop size, and the like.
Congrats
Steve

[jackpunx]

Thanks guys..
Well.. I couldnÂ’t leave it alone.. I asked them what else I could do while they had the motor apart. I ended up ordering the aluminum dart heads...The old lady signed off on it.. So im going for it. I cant wait to see what happens.. coming from a jet boat, I havenÂ’t really had my a$$hole pucker since I got this boat.. I have a feeling that might be coming.. They told me that I will have the boat back in time for the poker run on the 27th and 28th..

[jackpunx]

Stoked:
jackpunx:
Thats great! I know a few other guys with 224's are blown but I don't think they are anywhere near the us. I have been told the acceleration is scarey, from 0-100. Let me know all the details: expected numbers, acceleration, prop size, and the like.
Congrats
Steve They are going to prop me up to a 30 maybe bigger .. they have to lake test it to be sure.. With the heads and the S/C.. I should be at 773hp.. they expect to ad at least 15mph to the current 91mph that I can do now with my 28.. We'll see what the real deal is at the end of next month

[HP350SC]

I will be curious to see what the Whipple does for your top speed.Darn you anyway,putting new heads on too!I would have liked to known the results with just the blower. I assume you have the EFI 500?

[jackpunx]

actually I have the carb set up.. It looks like I have the small carb (stock holy) on it now.. They said it would work.. but it would really like more air.. (1150 Dominator) .. I think IÂ’m going to put one on.. Just to have it dialed in.. He said its going to be a beast either way..