BBC oil pumps

[victorfb]

Does anybody know where I can buy a detailed or "blueprinted"oil pump for my GenVI 502 motor??
I've always only used Mellings. Does anybody have any other suggestions?
thanks, Victor;)

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

summit

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

moroso makes 3 different ones
racing 79.99
blueprinted one is 109.99
billet cnc is 399.99:eek: :eek: :eek: I dont think u need this one unless you are a top fueler:D :D
396

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Originally posted by victorfb
Does anybody know where I can buy a detailed or "blueprinted"oil pump for my GenVI 502 motor??
I've always only used Mellings. Does anybody have any other suggestions?
thanks, Victor;)
Any good engine shop can do a regular melling one for you. A local boatshop is doing mine for a case of beer;) ;)
396

[victorfb]

now theres a deal. i gotta talk to my machine shop guy. :D
actually, i dont have a machine shop around here that does much High HP stuff. mostly stock stuff, so im not sure he has even done a blueprinting of an oil pump before. might have to go over to the nice guys at Team "C"in bellflower. ive never used thier machine shop, but they do alot of race motors.

[Moneypitt]

Buy the detailed or blueprinted one, cheap, when you consider whats at stake. I do my own, but for $109. I may start buying them............It's like shopping price for a heart transplant!!.................................Money pitt
PS: do a little research into oil pressure requirements, too much just sucks horsepower, too little eats bearings, A good rule is 10 lbs per 1000 RPM hot. (60 @ 6000) is plenty, cold pressure means nothing.......

[Fiat48]

Heads up. Just bought the Moroso blueprinted pump from retail store at Summit and can tell you right now the end clearance is too loose. I'll do some pictures and compare this with a Melling and we'll see if it's worth the money.
Update: Not worth the money in my opinion. End clearance at least .006. The only thing they have done with this pump is the old Jenkins mods of pressure balance. That's o.k. but there no opening of the main passage..in fact there is some slag in this one. Way too much gear clearance also. See pic of gear. Back to Melling for me!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374mor1-med.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374mor2-med.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374mor3-med.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374mor4-med.JPG
I did the pictures so you can see how the grooves are done for the pressure balance mod. Old school.

[victorfb]

now you guys are scaring me. how does the average joe know these things. we just get ripped off and pay big time later down the road. sucks. by the way, does anyone know what pump GM uses for thier 502 crate motors? are they worth useing in a jet boat application. the 502 im putting in the boat was run for about 4000 to 5000 miles in my truck. i am installing a new cam, aluminium heads, intake, carb, 10 qt oil pan, msd dist. and into the boat. is it taking a huge chance by running the factory oil pump?

[Fiat48]

I didn't mean to scare you. Key word was the "Blueprinted".
It's common on factory and aftermarket oil pumps to have a little more end play than we would like. I like .001. It helps the pump to prime quicker. The little pressure balance grooves are a mod that was done way back when to help pressure balance the pump gears and help spark scatter (oil pump is actually connected to distributor).
I add the pressure grooves, get the end clearance down to .001, deburr the gears as needed. And then make sure all the main oil passage is bored o.k. and no slag in it. Then check the pressure relief for smoothness.
Is the stock oil pump ok? Probably. But we do these things to make the oil pump better. Does it help? Well, end play does help to get it down for sure. The rest, I dunno.
I suspect Moneypitt also doing this for years. My problem was that the $110 Moroso wasn't up to snuff. So all it was saving me was putting the balance grooves in it. If I gotta work on it..give the plain jane to start with.
I forgot. One other thing on the Moroso was it rattled like Hell when I spun it. Lot of gear clearance. Never seen that on a Melling. Summit has it back now.
At least you got pictures of how to do the grooves. :D ;)

[058]

If the engine is in a v-drive the tight end clearance will help increase the suction pressure needed for a long oil pump pick up under hard accelleration.

[superdave013]

Victor, Geroge @ Clay Smith Cams does up some nice oil pumps. His look like works of art when he gets done with them.
He's local too.

[victorfb]

thanks dave. ill give him a call in the morning. you wouldnt happen to have his # do ya?

[superdave013]

He might be still on the road.
But Sherry can help you out. Tell her Dave Bottomley sent ya.
714 522 3315

[Rexone]

I would not waste your money on a Moroso bp pump. I had one I had to redo also. Maybe I'm just too particular I dunno. Get a Mellings and do it yourself or go to someone like Clay Smith as suggested. IMO an out of the box blueprinted pump must be checked anyway.
btw we have Mellings if anyone needs. Also Clevite, Manley, ARP. Not live on the website yet though.

[396_Z]

Originally posted by Rexone
btw we have Mellings if anyone needs. Also Clevite, Manley, ARP. Not live on the website yet though.
Nice, I'll have to look those up in my Rex catalog.

[victorfb]

shopping at REX Marine..... yipppeeeeee..

[cstraub]

Melling is now the only oil pump company. .
Chris

[Fiat48]

A little heads up on Melling pumps. I have two identical by part number M 77 HV pumps in the shop. 1 made dec 2003, the other Feb 2004. There is a change in casting. New pump has M77 HV cast right into it. End clearance is dead on .001. Housing is shaped slightly different and clears main stud where many old castings had to be ground. Also main drive gear is not pinned anymore. I wish they kept pinning the drive gear although I realize it's not necessary. So, check the date and get the new casting.

[victorfb]

i must have the old casting. sept 02. it has a tag the says M-77HV. not in the casting itself. casting does have USA though :D .
what exactly do you check when checking clearances? do i have to open the pump? i put a dial indicater on the main shaft and moved it up and down. it read about .002 maybe just a hair more, but definatly not .003 is that ok?
by the way i got mine from rex. thanks mike. :D

[Fiat48]

You can measure that way or take the cover off and use a depth mike. To get the end clearance down you need to sand down the housing. To do this, find a very good flat surface (or use a piece of glass) and a piece of wet or dry sandpaper. Use a circular motion and sand down the housing. Recheck your clearance.

[victorfb]

thanks. i read dennis moore's book and saw the way he says to do it after i posted. basically the same as you said except useing a feeler guage between the gear and cover. ill try and get it to .001
thanks guys.

[victorfb]

ok, did the pump by taking it apart and sanded the houseing a bit. got it to .001 but not at every position. as i turned the pump there was a spot or two that had a little more clearance. (.002) im sure ill be fine with it, but i was just wondering why i would get that.

[Fiat48]

Probably a little runout on the gear. Should be fine.

[victorfb]

cool to know thanks. well i went to install it and found a note in the box that says i have to use a new intermediate shaft with the pinned, steel sleeve. i wish i would have read that before. now another trip to the speed shop. so i figure id go ahead and set up the pick-up for the new dooley oil pan. how the heck do you get those things in there? can i heat the pump housing? and while im on the subject, why does the new windage tray use 7 bolts all from the mian caps, while my stock (502) one only uses 5, and 1 of those is from the oil pump bolt? so in fact i cannot use the oil pump bolt to mount the new tray, and will have to get 3 more main cap bolts that have the studs on them to mount to. can i or is it ok to use the factory windage tray with the 10 qt dooley pan? the dooley one is only a bit longer. well to the next main cap. im not sure what would happen if i only used the 4 bolts to mount it. probably not a good idea.
(edit) ok, looked on the rex site and see that i needed to order extra maint studs. damn.

[Fiat48]

Originally posted by victorfb
cool to know thanks. well i went to install it and found a note in the box that says i have to use a new intermediate shaft with the pinned, steel sleeve. i wish i would have read that before. now another trip to the speed shop. so i figure id go ahead and set up the pick-up for the new dooley oil pan. how the heck do you get those things in there? can i heat the pump housing? and while im on the subject, why does the new windage tray use 7 bolts all from the mian caps, while my stock (502) one only uses 5, and 1 of those is from the oil pump bolt? so in fact i cannot use the oil pump bolt to mount the new tray, and will have to get 3 more main cap bolts that have the studs on them to mount to. can i or is it ok to use the factory windage tray with the 10 qt dooley pan? the dooley one is only a bit longer. well to the next main cap. im not sure what would happen if i only used the 4 bolts to mount it. probably not a good idea.
There is an oil pump pickup installation tool made or you can make one yourself. I'd use the windage tray that specifically came with the oil pan. They are designed to work together to control oil. Buy the windage tray bolts (Chevy sells them) and use all 7. And use loctite on the small nuts when fastening the tray. Leave nothing to chance. Murphy's law works overtime.

[victorfb]

cool. ill run to GM in the morning. alot closer than rex, thats for sure. thanks for the tip. any idea on the intermediate shaft with the steel sleeve?

[Fiat48]

Moroso makes one. Melling also. Speed shop shoud have it. Melling used to sell the oil pump and include the pinned shaft with it. No more, though.

[Rexone]

use the Dooley tray victor, we stock those bolts too. #156103... We also should have the short lock nuts required (jam style). The dooley pickup has a centerless ground pump end for a precise fit and with the bolt on feature there is no need to weld this pickup in the pump. They cannot and do not come out. You can heat the pump housing a little and put the pickup in the freezer then tap it in. Actually with the pump bolted on the motor I've never had a problem getting the pickup in with a little tapping. We also have the pump shaft if you need.... ARP 135-7901. Just call Bob if you need any of above. :)
The GM number on those main studs is 3902885 if you want to pick them up from a local dealer.
Did the guys get that credit squared away for you?

[Rexone]

Victor if you have trouble we can probably overnight that stuff for Sat del if you want to pay the xtra 10 bucks ups. I think that's what they charge us for Sat del. + the next day air fee. Still might be cheaper than running all over. Just a thought. If you need just give a call.

[victorfb]

thanks mike. ill try the heat and freezer trick. its worked for me in the past on other motors. i just wanted to make sure it was ok to heat it. (never knew for sure). i am hoping to get the motor in the boat tomorrow so i will first call the gm dealer for the main studs. thank you so much for the part number. your a good man. and as i recall from my last trip to the local speed shop. (down the street from the GM dealer) i remember seeing that steel shaft. i dont meen to take any buisness away from you, but time is an issue right now.
and by the way, no, i was so into working on the boat that by the time it crossed my mind to call about the credit issue, it was after hours. ill call tomorrow while im making the other calls. thanks for your help. :D

[Rexone]

victor that number I gave you was for a MK4 motor.
If you have a gen 5 it is 10224104
And I wouldn't get the pump very hot... not good. A little warm with a propane torch is what I'm talkin about. Leave the oxy/acetelyne on the shelf. It should not be that tough getting the pickup in.
whatever works victor, we've got in stock if you need just call if the locals don't have it.

[victorfb]

thanks again mike. and yes it is the gen 6 motor (502). the propane deal was what im talking about aswell. and it looks like i can make that little tool from an old cheap deep socket to help tap it in straight. ill see what the locals can do first. but if any hassles, ill be shootin out to your place for sure. hope im not offending you, just on a tight time schedule, and friday traffic sucks all the way from san diego. thanks again for all your help. now im headed back to the shop. (no sleep for me this week):D

[Rexone]

Originally posted by victorfb
hope im not offending you, just on a tight time schedule, and friday traffic sucks all the way from san diego.
not at all victor, whatever it takes to get it done. happy to help :)