Question about Howard hulls?

[DOHARA]

Been looking for a 21 v drive Howard cruiser. Did howard make a river cruiser and a day cruiser? I found a 78 day cruiser but I like the look of a river cruiser look kinda like the difference in the schiada RC compared to a schiada 22 marithon. Just wondering if the howard did the same in the upper line differences. ie. kinda angles down from the dash area to back of boat insted of a stepping down. I think I described it well enough.
Thanks,
Dano
http://www.howardboats.com/images/showroom/21_custom-cruiser-4.jpg
http://images.traderonline.com/img/6/plcnad/3791490/70480798_1.jpg

[SPECTRABRENT]

Howard 21 IS the Spectra 20 (Howard copied the Spectra 20) and the hulls look the same but they are different. The Schiada RC has a deeper entry & 15 degree bottom. The Howard (Spectra) is a 12 degree bottom.
Howard changed the deck in the mid 1980's from the original Spectra 20 deck.
Brent

[lucky]

78 howard

[lucky]

my 78 is a two stringer ( full leanth ) originally with glass belly tanks - ( not good for blowers ) I had alum built and installed -
boat is not the most responsive thing around the docks It is a cruiser ...

[CustomCruiser]

I believe there is only one mold for the bottom of the 21 Howard Custom Cruiser. The top comes in at least three flavors - old style cruiser, whaler, and the current (more streamlined) version. Like SpectraBrent said, the bottom was designed after the Spectra, but is was modified and is a true 21' (excluding any swim steps).

[spectras only]

Originally posted by CustomCruiser
IHoward Custom Cruiser. version. Like SpectraBrent said, the bottom was designed after the Spectra, but is was modified and is a true 21' (excluding any swim steps). What you saying is , the 21 custom cruiser is a stretched 20.10 spectra hull;) :D ?

[old rigger]

Originally posted by CustomCruiser
I believe there is only one mold for the bottom of the 21 Howard Custom Cruiser. The top comes in at least three flavors - old style cruiser, whaler, and the current (more streamlined) version. Like SpectraBrent said, the bottom was designed after the Spectra, but is was modified and is a true 21' (excluding any swim steps).
CC,
you're right on the money with your mention of Howards 3 different decks for the cruiser (I love the later version where Howard Brown straightend out the gunales, and used a nicer
non- skid. He got away from the kitty litter look on that one) but the bottom's pure Spectra. No changes, other than the inserts that were made for the v-drives, it's just as splashed. Howard told me he called up Spectra soon after they introduced the boat told them he was going to splash it. I don't remember what the repercussions were, but he was the first one to splash it. Tahiti followed right behind him, but the changed the deck a little. At Rogers, we even sold a few of Howards whalers as a 'Rogers'.
Close knit community back then.

[CustomCruiser]

I guess it was a close-knit community back then. It's hard to imagine that happening today without legal action. Anyway, DOHARA, the bottom (Spectra) runs and handles great. If you found a 21' Howard in good shape, I would buy it. Here's a shot of the new deck from the Howard Custom Boats web site (this is a '97).
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/99621-Open-Bow-Rider.jpg

[SPECTRABRENT]

Like Old Rigger said, the Howard 21 is the Spectra 20.
The Spectra 20 could have been call a Spectra 21, but in the early 1970's the biggest boat that could go in the Long Beach Marine Stadium was limited to 20 feet long. The Spectra 20 is (20ft 10in).
As for being a close-knit community, I dont think so, Spectra did sue the boat companies that copied their boats and won.
Brent

[old rigger]

Originally posted by SPECTRABRENT
Like Old Rigger said, the Howard 21 is the Spectra 20.
As for being a close-knit community, I dont think so, Spectra did sue the boat companies that copied their boats and won.
Brent
Brent,
I was kinda talking about the area I grew up in and the shops I worked for, Rogers, Howard, Tahiti. Galixie was around the corner, Wriedt, Regatta, and so on. You're right about the lawsuits, but I saw many people help one another out when a boat had to be done and they needed something from another builder. No big deal. It was a close knit deal. 'Cept for spectra I guess, they might as well have been in another state they were so far from us. Schuster sued and got sued, but everyone still dealt with him, or worked for him when things got slow. It was cool. :wink:

[SPECTRABRENT]

Old Rigger,
I am sure that many boat builders did help each other out by rigging or laying up a hulls, but outright splashing or coping of a hull is kinda BS if you ask me. I prefer the boat co's that designed and made thier own hulls. Spectra, Schiada, Hallett etc.
Brent

[old rigger]

Brent,
All the shops I listed did tool up their own original boats, and no one, not even Spectra, was splashed more than Tahiti/Schuster, (the southwind 18 was the most copied boat of the 70's, it might be a push between that and the original Tahiti when it came to the most copied boat). And I argree with you that splashing is BS, it shouldn't happen but it did and, in some circles it still happens.
I guess I'm not the connoisseur your are when it comes to boats. I like almost anything that floats. :wink:
By the way, only two from your list of three resisted the urge from borrowing from someones eles's hard work through the years.
But back to the point of the thread, the 20 Spectra stands almost alone when it comes to a great all around pefrorming bottom. I don't know how you could make it better.

[bigkatboat]

Put a 'Hallett' name on it and tripple the price! At least Howard Brown called....., what about the 19' Shiada / Howard? Smiley Sanchez did all of the Southwind tooling and 'corrected' a lot of the "trick" designs. Smiley never got credit (or cash) for his work. (just a paycheck) You all are thinking (except old rigger) in today's BS credit world. Back then, boat builders used whatever cash was on hand, and they had no "bank credit line". "My boat deposit went towards your hull, and your money went towards finishing someone elses boat". On monday morning, I would "give out parts" to be paid off on friday, when the boat was delivered. Back then, you could 'trust' some people. Today it's so GD expensive that $100's are $10,000's, and NO ONE can let that go out the door 'till friday'. Howard Brown's hulls are "rock solid", I've rigged quite a few of them. Gene seems to be doing a good job, but I don't have any personal knowledge. Don't ever use the 'glass tanks'. If you are under 1000 HP, don't worry just run it.

[DOHARA]

I like the lower profile top(gunales). I found that Howard changed them back in 1986 or so, and the lower section stayed the same. I learned alot from this forum and appreciate it. So Spectra made the original 20-21 cruiser and Howard splashed it. I always thought howard was first. I know my boat was splashed off the ultra, carrera,eliminator. I guess boat manufacture's will try to copy one another if that design is popular and change it just enough to get away with it. Are Hallett vectors as good as a schaida/howard/spectra as far as rough water handling. I am trying to learn about these different hulls, I'm new to the v drive scene and want to know the to plus's and minus's of these hulls as far as performance.
Dano

[old rigger]

Bigkatboat,
you're right on the money when you talk about puting your deposit down on a boat in the old days.I remember a thread on this site awhile back and (if I remrember it right) that way of doing biz was getting blasted. Times change and so do ways of getting business done. Be tough to do with todays high prices, like you said.
On the flip side, and I'm sure you can remember this too, lots of guys got in big trouble for taking deposits and spending the cash somewhere else. Even up into the early 90's I can recall that happening. Didn't happen too often, but it did happen.
You know I sold my 65 Howard flat earlier this year and it still had the glass tanks in it. I think they hold up pretty well. Of course it was just a cruiser with a near stock FE in it. I've never even come close to messing with the big HP (in any of my tugs) that some of you guys do so I wouldn't know about them not doing well in that situation. But I can certanily understand someone not wanting them in their boat.
When I was working for Howard in the late 80's and early 90's, after Gene bought Howard out, we were still using the glass tanks in the cruisers. I'm sure they've switched by now. I can't believe someone hasn't bought the 21 molds from them. I think there'd be a nice small niche for a guy that wanted to build a custom cruizer like that. The boats retro enough to have a cool feel to it, but it's every bit as good lookin a boat as the Schiada. Plus it has good manners no mater what kind of drive you throw in it. The right guy could make it work in today's market.

[old rigger]

Originally posted by DOHARA
Are Hallett vectors as good as a schaida/howard/spectra as far as rough water handling. I am trying to learn about these different hulls, I'm new to the v drive scene and want to know the to plus's and minus's of these hulls as far as performance.
Dano
Personally dohara, I'd kill own a Vector. I have a few friends with them, one of them was bought back in the 80's, the other 2 just in the last 2 years, and they're ****in awsome. I just can't afford one. All of them are I/O's though, and I think that a lot of ski race guys use them set up that way too. I don't know how they work with a v-drive.

[CustomCruiser]

Originally posted by old rigger
...When I was working for Howard in the late 80's and early 90's, after Gene bought Howard out, we were still using the glass tanks in the cruisers. I'm sure they've switched by now. I can't believe someone hasn't bought the 21 molds from them. I think there'd be a nice small niche for a guy that wanted to build a custom cruizer like that. The boats retro enough to have a cool feel to it, but it's every bit as good lookin a boat as the Schiada. Plus it has good manners no mater what kind of drive you throw in it. The right guy could make it work in today's market.
Old Rigger - maybe the right guy is you! There was another thread here several weeks ago stating that the 21' Howard mold was for sale. I agree, it could work in today's market.
The glass belly tanks have been replaced with aluminum saddle tanks - has been now for many years.

[HotHallet]

The blue and white Howard in the above pics was just purchased by a good friend of mine. It is a super clean boat! Howard builds great boats and the old ones were really laid up solid.

[insanity]

Couple of years ago I bought a 1975 Campbell 21' Cruiser hull that looks almost identical to the above blue Howard. Anybody know the history on Campbells cruisers? Was it also a splash off of the Spectra? When I bought it, it had an old Halibrand V drive in it. I think the strut is about 10 or 12 degree. Would this hull be comparable performance wise to the Howard or Spectra? Have thought about putting a shallower strut on it and putting newer Casale V drive and hardware in it for a lake cruiser. Is it worth the effort? I have an 82 Cole TR-2 and 69 Sanger straight flat which are great river / flat water boats but would like to put something together to run on the lakes in Norcal.
Greg

[smalls]

How much for the TR2?

[ssmike]

Yeah, what he said

[smalls]

Originally posted by ssmike
Yeah, what he said
Whats up stranger?

[insanity]

Hey Smalls,
Sorry, neither the TR-2 nor the Sanger are for sale. I know you have seen both of them. My kids would disown me if I got rid of the Sanger and the TFX is going in the TR-2 hopefully in the next year.
Greg

[VD CRUISER]

bigkatboat, I don't understand your statements, "don't ever use the 'glass tanks'. If you are under 1000 hp, don't worry just run it.
My 83 Howard still has the glass tanks. What problem might they cause? I like them because the weight is low in the hull, and there is more room inside the boat.

[SPECTRABRENT]

Insanity,
The 20 Campbell (flat 10 degree bottom) is a great hull and I think it was first introduced in 1969. The Spectra 20 was made a year later in 1970. The designer of the Spectra 20, Bud Bailey worked (designed hulls) for Campbell before he went on to start Spectra Marine. The Spectra & Campbell lines are very much the same, but different. According to my magazines (Powerboat) the Howard 21 was introduced in 1974.
I think the Spectra or Howard is a better performance hull than the Campbell.
Brent

[smalls]

Originally posted by insanity
Hey Smalls,
Sorry, neither the TR-2 nor the Sanger are for sale. I know you have seen both of them. My kids would disown me if I got rid of the Sanger and the TFX is going in the TR-2 hopefully in the next year.
Greg
You have too many boats you need to sell the tr2 to me.......
how about 15K

[insanity]

Good Morning Smalls,
Can you have too many V-Drives???? 15K hhmmmmmmmmm Tempting. Nah, I still need to go heads up with my bro's purple Howard.
Greg

[DOHARA]

Hot Hallett, your buddy bought that blue howard that was in my first post? Shit thats what started this hole thread. I was looking to buy it and actually called the guy yesterday and got the machine. Oh well I guess I will just have to wait till another one comes around. That thing is clean as hell though. :eek: :D
Dano

[insanity]

Thanks Brent for the Info on the Campbell hull. It is pretty flat at the transom. Is it considered a long 20 footer like the Spectra, because it measures pretty close to 21. It is pretty much a bare hull currently. I would like to make it a good dependable lake cruiser with a 400 - 500 horse bbc / turbo 400, not looking to go over 60 mph or so. Can you give me an idea of what would be the proper strut (or prop) location and angle, V drive location, and motor location?
Thanks
Greg

[Highlimit9000]

Originally posted by DOHARA
Hot Hallett, your buddy bought that blue howard that was in my first post? Shit thats what started this hole thread. I was looking to buy it and actually called the guy yesterday and got the machine. Oh well I guess I will just have to wait till another one comes around. That thing is clean as hell though. :eek: :D
Dano
Still for sale until Wed. Next Week. Close to the Howard Hull
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/199Considelines1.JPG

[hack job]

yeah that howard is gone, one of our buddies grabed it up. its a pretty clean piece!;)

[lucky]

Originally posted by VD CRUISER
bigkatboat, I don't understand your statements, "don't ever use the 'glass tanks'. If you are under 1000 hp, don't worry just run it.
My 83 Howard still has the glass tanks. What problem might they cause? I like them because the weight is low in the hull, and there is more room inside the boat.
glass tanks will come apart when you put high grade fuel in them - and another problem is the p/u is not big enough - if you run a big motor you will have to feed off of both tanks glass tanks typicaly run 6-a.n fittings need aleast 8 a.n's prefer 10a.n with blower or turbo's glass tanks are fine for a stock boat - when you have a problem have them made in alum-- and put them back in the same spot , on the older hulls they are desighed to take up "flex " like a stringer - that is why the older howards had the two stringers/belly tanks - I believe the new ones have four stringers and saddle tanks ... aint broke , don't fix it -

[lucky]

coleons boat is sweet , i was going to buy it before he did but he beat me and i bought the howard - hell--- i'll sell anything - If you want one - I"LL SELL IT need an ex wife ?

[lucky]

ohh nice brand new alum tanks :)

[lucky]

deck plate , if you look you will see the flames all threw out the interior

[CustomCruiser]

lucky - sweet boat. If you don't mind me asking, what HP and MPH are you getting out of her?

[SPECTRABRENT]

The Campbell is a very good choice for what you are looking to do.
As for the motor & strut placement, I dont have a clue. I would say call Campbell in Havasu or one of the v-drive experts on this board should have the answer.
Good Luck,
Brent

[lucky]

I got the boat out for the first time in 4 years - last labor day ( all three days ) I really don't know what it will do - ( don't all v drive's so a 100m.ph ) the engine was a brand new alky dragster engine with a 8/71 35% over I bought it with three start ups on it minus hat /blower and put the small blower on it - I really do not know - I know i could not pull the 33 gears and had to change them , was looking for 22's ( c- 500 gears _ but ended up with 15's - ) getting them back from wilkes tomorrow - I would estimate - around 600 ponies with alot more on tap with a chiller and 8/71 - motor was well built by this guys son . ( see pic below ) there is a story about why it took me four years to get it on the water .. lmao - but i can't type that much

[lucky]

his engine , my engine came out of a rail

[HotHallet]

Sat in Erik's (Tom Foolrey's New Howard) last night in my buddy Brandon's backyard. Sipped a few brews on Cinco De Mayo and listened to some tunes from the old school stereo in the boat. Definitley a nice boat and rigged with quality stuff. Can't wait until Erik can take it out and get it wet! The previous owner claimed 101 on gps.

[lucky]

shirt -- by the time we finished drinkin 'i'm sure we could have gotten her to at least 140 mph :)

[Kurtis500]

i have a 78 Howard 21 footer and LOVE it. After 10+ years of using a flatbottom to get around the lakes this thing is the greatest..especially for a family.

[VD CRUISER]

Lucky, yea the tanks have 1/4 or 3/8, (can't remember which), NPT threads in them. I used a stainless # 8 adapter in them and drilled the Id out as much as possible, and ran -8 lines to ball valves and a T so I can run one or both tanks. From the T on I use -10 line. I am putting a by pass deal on it this year. The only thing that attacked the tanks was some Moroso additive I used years ago. The engine is 547 with a 10:71 and two 1050's, so it requires a lot of fuel.

[bigkatboat]

`'Rigger, I tried to do what you are saying here. I was going to buy Don Cucci's 'Spectra' molds ($10,000.00) and build a few "custom" boats each year. I wanted to start at around $50K for a 'full motor rail install', crate 502/502, T400, on a nice tubing trailer. NO ONE WANTED TO SPEND ANY MONEY!!! Even the guys on the 'Spectra' site, talked it up, then bailed, so why would anybody in their 'right mind' go to all the trouble and expense of offering a "NEW/OLD" boat? Even the guys who love them won't buy them! If I were asking $85K, you would know it was JUST FOR THE MONEY! I was talking $50K, and NOT ONE GUY STEPPED UP! I guess they like the 1970's boats and the 1970's prices! It's too bad, I would have liked to build about 4 a year, along with other types of boats. The problem is that my wife won't let me spend $100K to set things up and build 'one or two demo boats', that won't sell, even at a cheap-ass price.

[old rigger]

bigkat,
Yeah, that's a problem.
Personaly, if I was gonna do it, it'd be with the Howard molds or nothing at all. The D'cucci's still have the dropped gunales (I think) and that kinda dates the boat. The Howard looks fresh, plus you get the whaler deck to as an optional version. I like v-drives, I/Os and jets and that boat does them all well, so to make it work, I think offering 'any drive' is a must. Still, that's alot of $ to get started.
I'm not sure taking a survey or a poll from the boards about buying a new boat like this would amount to anything worth swaying my mind. The large majority on any of them are into older boats even on this board, like me. Thats cool too. But the bottom line is to make one and get it seen. Belly up for some coverage in the mags, and it'd work. 5, 6, 7 boats a year would be great.
by the way, my wife wouldn't let me spend 100k either..................
I take that back. If I was going to do what you described and get back into the boat biz, she'd tell me to go for it. And to be honest, I'd certainly invest in at least 2 other molds, a party boat, and I don't know what else of the top of my head. But like I said eariler, it'd take the right guy. I'm not the right guy anymore.

[lucky]

If i was in the market for a new boat - I would much rather buy one of them boats vs a "ski natzie " or a " ski blow by ya " I swear - every time i look at h- boat prices i choke - - I would love to have a new one -( v drive ) but at a hundred grand - ouch - Big kat , when i win the lotto ( I'm changing my name and location in order to accomplish this ) I will buy the molds for ya and you can donate a boat - to me -- lol - I would love to see us v- drivers overwheling the lakes just like the "polish battle ships " awww life would be grand !

[superdave013]

Originally posted by bigkatboat
` NO ONE WANTED TO SPEND ANY MONEY!!!
And they still don't. Well, most don't. I gave up trying to do one off custom parts for that very reason. People think that the one off stuff price should be less then Dana's price. They don't even have a print. Wanted me to do that too.
Another guy here has some NICE CNC equipment and we were talking about this too. If I want to work for 5 bucks an hour I'll just go out to the Havasu channel and collect cans!

[superdave013]

Originally posted by lucky
If i was in the market for a new boat - I would much rather buy one of them boats vs a "ski natzie " or a " ski blow by ya " I swear - every time i look at h- boat prices i choke - - I would love to have a new one -( v drive ) but at a hundred grand - ouch - Big kat , when i win the lotto ( I'm changing my name and location in order to accomplish this ) I will buy the molds for ya and you can donate a boat - to me -- lol - I would love to see us v- drivers overwheling the lakes just like the "polish battle ships " awww life would be grand !
I would too! Heck, I'll have that much invested in my restored old boat by the time it's done.

[SPECTRABRENT]

There is a reason Gene & Michael @ Howard are selling the Howard/Spectra 20 mold, there is no money in boats that are less than 24 ft. Nobody wants to spend the $$$ to rig and set up these boats (like the Schiada 21 @ the LA boat show $120,000.00, but worth it). Its like SuperDave stated, about CNC stuff everybody wants the nice 1 off stuff, but they want to pay the Dana prices.
I have been a jetboat guy for most of my boating life, so when I got into my v-drive (rerigging of hardware) I got sticker shock about prices and what guys like Teague get to rig these boats.
BTW, I think Howard just laid up a new 21 the other day.
Brent

[CustomCruiser]

No doubt, you would be targeting a special segment in the market, and that is the primary risk. Will this market support a business?
I did buy a new/old boat in 1997. I went with the Howard Custom Cruiser because I love the classic lines of a cruiser mixed with the updated top deck. I also liked the power options provided and the optional open bow.
I think the recipe for success is flexibility and options. You need to provide an entry level boat (merc black engine with bravo1 I/O) all the way up to a full blown race-prepped v-drive. The entry level boat will keep your business moving and allow for the high end custom projects, which would be the primary reason I would venture into this type of business in the first place.

[old rigger]

Originally posted by SPECTRABRENT
There is a reason Gene & Michael @ Howard are selling the Howard/Spectra 20 mold, there is no money in boats that are less than 24 ft. Nobody wants to spend the $$$ to rig and set up these boats (like the Schiada 21 @ the LA boat show $120,000.00, but worth it).
Brent
I think there's a HUGE market in smaller boats and it's happening right now. Look at all the crappy 2 stroke jets things out there beins sold by the hundreds. I don't know what their called, bigger than a PWC, but they're powered by the powerheads off a outboard and have 2 pumps in them. Ugly things to boot.
There's always room for a quality product. If you look east past the river, it's a different market.
120 K for a 21 is insane. I don't care who built it.

[spectras only]

Originally posted by old rigger
120 K for a 21 is insane. I don't care who built it. [/B] OR , my friend builds these 24' ,all hand made for under 110K US . You're right 120K for a 21' is mind boggling:rolleyes: Ps; just read on the internet ,the painting of "boy" by Picasso just sold for us$104 million .I guess if money is no object go ahead purchase what your heart desires http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/kazulin24.14%20copy.jpg

[SPECTRABRENT]

OR,
Are you kidding about the $120,000.00 for the 21 Schiada, thats a bargin:D.
I wonder how much a kevlar Spectra 20 with the the same rigging as a Schiada 21 would go for these days?
Are you going to LB Swap Meet on Sunday? If so, I will bring you some Spectra shirts.
Brent

[BIGAMIST]

Originally posted by SPECTRABRENT
OR,
Are you kidding about the $120,000.00 for the 21 Schiada, thats a bargin:D.
I wonder how much a kevlar Spectra 20 with the the same rigging as a Schiada 21 would go for these days?
Are you going to LB Swap Meet on Sunday? If so, I will bring you some Spectra shirts.
Brent
I'll take 2 shirts:wink: :D :D

[superdave013]

Originally posted by SPECTRABRENT
OR,
Are you kidding about the $120,000.00 for the 21 Schiada, thats a bargin:D.
I wonder how much a kevlar Spectra 20 with the the same rigging as a Schiada 21 would go for these days?
Are you going to LB Swap Meet on Sunday? If so, I will bring you some Spectra shirts.
Brent
Brent, I would like a Spectra shirt. Just let me know how much. You know where I'll be, booth 670.
Oh, XL please. :)
Thanks in advance
Dave

[SPECTRABRENT]

Dave,
In order to get a Spectra t-shirt, you must own a Spectra.
Sorry,
Brent
:D

[BIGAMIST]

Brent don't ignore me, you got any-thing that'll fit my fat ass??:D

[SPECTRABRENT]

Jeff,
I have a couple of XXXL's that nobody can fit into, It will take a man of your size to fit into them.
Are you going to the LB Swap Meet? If not, are you going to Big River next weekend?
Let me know,
Brent

[BIGAMIST]

Originally posted by SPECTRABRENT
Jeff,
I have a couple of XXXL's that nobody can fit into, It will take a man of your size to fit into them.
Are you going to the LB Swap Meet? If not, are you going to Big River next weekend?
Let me know,
Brent
Just bustin your balls about the shirts,but if you can hook me up with one I'd appreciate it.99.9% sure I'll be at Big River:) :) .

[SPECTRABRENT]

Jeff,
I will bring some shirts next weekend.
Brent

[bigkatboat]

That's the great thing about this forum, $120000.00 boats to $12.00 'T' shirts in two posts. Not even the 'guys who love these boats' can keep one thought going for two minutes. Who in their 'right mind' would spend any money on an 'old boat' project? These guys would "twist you down $5.00" on the sale of an old boat, and the next day put $3000.00 down on a set of aluminum heads. I'm too old to waste time on BULLSHITTERS!

[bigkatboat]

Oldrigger, you are correct! There is money in building a 21' boat. If you don't borrow to build it, and you keep the 'goal' in mind, a nice, affordable, performance boat can be built. But it seems like most people here want to buy a $5.00 boat, put a $25000.00 motor in it and CASH IN FOR $50K REAL FAST!! Then go out and buy a 'real boat'. I'm to the point that I don't need to prove anything, and I have the money to choose what I want to do. I'm going to build the boats that I want to build, and if no one buys them, I'll stick them up my ass. I will tell you (and you know I'm correct) that when people see quality, and performance, they will investigate who built the boat. I am not going to advertise, it will all be 'word of mouth', because I have put the MONEY IN THE BOATS. I've done it in the past and I will continue to do it that way. It's not good business, it's just good boat building!