Commander Fraud

[THATJEFFGUY]

**** EDIT 5/9/04 SLIGHTLY MODIFIED VERSION NOW RE-pPOSTED ****
Well here's my recent dilemma with Commander Boats that I'd like to share with everyone. Let's see how this changes everyone's opinion..
In March 2002, I decided to upgrade from my 21' jet and purchase a larger boat. I looked at the Commander 26' Signature, only because I thought they offered a lot of boat for the money. I was dealing Michael Gilkey at the showroom in Corona, and he steered me towards one they had on the lot. He said the boat was new but was a "demo" boat, and that it had been sent to a showroom in Utah because Commander was trying to get their name out there.
He said the boat sat in the dealer's showroom for about a year, and it had only been taken out a couple times for test runs, with maybe 20-30 hours on it, but the dealer filed for bankruptcy and so Commander repo'd the boat.
The boat looked clean, had virtually no real visible wear, and the hour meter read something like 4 hours. I asked why the meter was set back and he said the old hour meter was broken, and they replaced it when they completely went through the motor (454 Mag). The boat had several options already on it, and he made me a deal on the boat, which I thought was a pretty good price, compared to a brand new boat, so I decided to purchase the boat. I also paid an additional $5,000 for the 454 Mag upgrade, from 6.2 that comes stock in the boat.
The boat was sold to me as a 2002 model, but during the paperwork process, I questioned as to why they had listed the trailer as 1998 Competitive trailer. They told me the trailer was manufactured in 1998 and had been registered to Commander since then, but was only used to transport the boat to Utah. I told them I wanted the entire trailer gone through and wanted everything replaced on it so I was getting a "new" trailer. They assured me this would be done and it would be like new. They also gave me paperwork for a new Mercruiser 454 Mag and said the motor was still considered "new" and had a full warranty. After several months of using the boat, I experienced a few problems that was like pulling teeth to get Commander to repair, but that's a whole different story. I also noticed there had been a hole cut behind the rear seat. I asked if there had ever been a supercharger kit installed and Sy told me definitely not, and that maybe the dealer in Utah had tried to install a larger motor in the boat.
So recently, I've decided to upgrade to a bigger cat or deck, so I placed an ad in the Boat Trader and have had a few prospective buyers. Then, I received a call from a guy in Utah that asked me some particulars on the boat. He then says, "Sir your boat is a 1998, not a 2002.I used to own that boat." After talking to him for quite some time and obtaining some more important information, I told him I would be in contact with him. I then contacted a friend who is a private investigator, and told him the situation and asked him to investigate this for me. After a few weeks, I received the true story on this boat, and am now extremely pissed off ! Here's the facts..
The boat was built in 1998, was sold to a boat dealer in Utah for his personal use. The motor is the original 454 Mag, which previously had a ProCharger installed on it, and had close to 160 hours on it even before the ProCharger was installed. After the ProCharger was installed, another 100 or more hours were put on the motor. The boat was used by Commander Boats in their 1998 Regatta in LHC, and was also used as a pace boat for some offshore races (I can't remember which ones). The owner of the dealership passed away and the boat was given back to Commander as it was still financed.
So basically I have now purchased a used boat with almost 300 hours on it, that was sold to me as NEW !! Sy was also fully aware the boat had a ProCharger, and knew the boat was definitely USED !! I contacted my attorney, the finance company, and the insurance company, and they all advised me to call the manufacturer and see what they are wiling to do. So, I called Sy and told him the situation, and explained to him that I had the entire history of the boat, statements from it's previous owners, and documentation, and asked what his offer was. He simply told me that since the boat was for sale, he would be willing to put it on his lot and sell it at a price that was fair for both of us. WTF..is this guy a complete idiot or what ??? I told him I didn't think he understood what I was saying, this is FRAUD on his part, and the issue of me selling the boat is not the point.
He said he did not know what the salesman had told me when I bought the boat, but he was sorry if there was any miscommunication, and that he would talk to the salesman about it. I told him the bottom line was that he owed me the difference in price between a 1998 and a 2002, along with the additional $5,000 I paid for the motor upgrade for a USED, and abused motor ! He said he owes me nothing and selling my boat for me was all he could do.
So, after 30 minutes of arguing with him on the phone, his only offer was to try and sell the boat for me. Now, it doesn't take a rocket scientist, but how in the hell is he going to sell a boat that is 6 years old, has over 300 "real" hours on the motor, and get a fair price for it...when I owe almost $47,000 on the ****ing thing

[1stepcloser]

BAM!!!
YEE-HAW.....get-um JEFF!!!
edit: Actually this is very serious, and HB (read Flynt publications) is likely removing this thread to protect from possible liabilty.
Dont Blame HB. Blame the litigious society we have created for ourselves.:(

[DUNDUN]

I can't believe HB deleted your post!!!
Thats BS! You are telling the members useful information on buying boats!!! My step-dad has been talking about buying a commander and because of THATJEFFGUY, I'll tell him the bad news and it will save us alot of problems. Thank you THATJEFFGUY.
P.S. ***boat, WTF?

[OutCole'd]

Way to go Jeff. :D

[manuel]

You need to copy this post on the other sites also, before they kill it again, THIS NEEDS TO BE PUBLIC to protect others,

[riverbound]

How long til they delete it again?

[TOBTEK]

COMMANDER must have just signed a advertising contract with HB;) .....hope everything works out for you! Sue him for enough money to go buy a new DCB.....dave is a VERY stand up guy. And makes a pretty ok boat;)

[THATJEFFGUY]

TobTek...good idea ! But does my avatar look like someone who would sue, and spend thoudands of dollars in court costs and attorney fees..just to deal with the bullshit legal system ?:cool:

[1stepcloser]

Originally posted by manuel
You need to copy this post on the other sites also, before they kill it again, THIS NEEDS TO BE PUBLIC to protect others,
There ya go....

[GlastronGuy]

They deleted your thread? What a crock of shit!!

[TOBTEK]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
TobTek...good idea ! But does my avatar look like someone who would sue, and spend thoudands of dollars in court costs and attorney fees..just to deal with the bullshit legal system ?:cool:
OH......your Italian, sorry Tony. I didnt know the cover BIZ was a "cover up-biz" for the waste management company":D
So when you do my new cover, I better pay promptly I take it:eek:

[***boat]

Originally posted by hallett flat bottom kid
I can't believe HB deleted your post!!!
Thats BS! You are telling the members useful information on buying boats!!! My step-dad has been talking about buying a commander and because of THATJEFFGUY, I'll tell him the bad news and it will save us alot of problems. Thank you THATJEFFGUY.
P.S. ***boat, WTF?
This is very simple and we have been through it before.
1. ***boat.com cannot get in the middle of anything that might become legal action, and further more we will not risk the ability to provide this free service making ourselves liable in any way.
2. This could very well be considered slander and commander could very well sue the poster over this matter.
3. If you really have a problem then take it to court. If what you posted is true then you have a case and you can post the results anywhere you want as that will be completed legal action.
You will notice that the above post has been edited. If I remove your post or edit it there is a really good chance I did not want you to re-post the same thing. If you post this again you will be banned. If you re-register and continue to post your ISP will be notified of the abuse and I will religiously annoy them about it until your account is canceled, you are blocked from this site at the root or legal action is taken.
In case I was not clear, I do not like it when people re-post things that have been edited.

[HCS]

Wtf. This isn't a buyer beware case. It's 100% fraud. These guys
can't blame it on the employee or claim ignorance. Between this
story and the one about Walter at MP, I think this deal has alot
of ground to stand on. Roll someones head!

[GlastronGuy]

Originally posted by ***boat
blah, blah, blah...
I am going to sue you (legal action) because you let people post racist comments on this free board. It is an insult to my virgin ears. Please take the board down until this matter is settled in a court of law.
Thank you for your consideration.

[Jrocket]

Originally posted by ***boat
1. ***boat.com cannot get in the middle of anything that might become legal action, and further more we will not risk the ability to provide this free service making ourselves liable in any way.
And just how are you in the middle of it?

[Jrocket]

Jeff Im sorry to hear about your problem.You need to get your attorney and the law involved in this as soon as possible.If your story is all facts then I would be taking very serious action against them.

[THATJEFFGUY]

Yeah HB you were clear, sorry you didn't like my re-post BUT how do we make other prospective boat buyers aware of fraudulent business dealings within the industry ? I'm quite sure if you had been ripped off personally, you would like to warn others too ! I'm not posting this topic to stir up any shit, or to probvoke a lawsuit with Sy or Commander Boats either, I can do that on my own !! But since I haven't been lurking on the board all day and missed every response that was sent on that topic...why don't you send me a copy of the responses....I'm very interetsed in everyones else opinion on this matter.

[TOBTEK]

Originally posted by Jrocket
Jeff Im sorry to hear about your problem.You need to get your attorney and the law involved in this as soon as possible.If your story is all facts then I would be taking very serious action against them.
Its a NO BRAIN'er in court! IF you have your paperwork showing the 2000 or 2002 HIN#(I forget) and the orig customers paperwork showing 1998 and are able to get the orig owner to appear in court.........piece of cake. Im Mr never sue anyone......but like you said this is fraud by a manufacture! Calif and Federal laws dont take to kindley to this sort of thing. And as someone also said, contact the CA DMV fraud division. They are in El CAjon Ca, they will also look into the matter....he may even loose his lic's to do Biz in this state.

[HCS]

You got it. You can't just take it apon yourself to roll back hrs and
change the year on a boat. The serial #'s on the hull should be
able to prove when it was built.

[THATJEFFGUY]

I just hate the BS legal system..its a waste of money and usually a joke. But I do intend to push this matter as far as possible though, and after contacting the CA Attorney General, CA Dept. of Consumer Affairs, CA Insurance Commissioner, hopefully it will be almost impossible for anyone to insure and/or finance another boat from Commander due to their fraudulent business practices. I'm sure the media would love to get ahold of this story too ! I have spoken to my insurance company and finance company underwriters, and they may even step up to the plate also because they were frauded too !!
Sy, you might wanna schedule another court date to modify your recent Chapter 11 Bankruptcy filing !! You might as well go ahead and file Chapter 7...or just sign the company over to me, whichever is cheaper and easier for you !
I'm an honest businessman myself, and I just detest ****ing cheating liars and crooks like this !!
http://members.aol.com/jeff2233/commander

[Jrocket]

Whenever you alter a VIN# on anything that is registered with the DMV,you are breaking a very serious law.And to sell it again as new?****ing incredible.I would really like to be in court listening in on this one.
I wouldnt take any offers from Commander at all from this point on.All legal matter now,and alot of it.I would sock it to them as hard as I could.Dont back down one bit!

[HCS]

One of our local TV stations has what they call "call 3 for action."
You call them and they plaster your case all over the airways
for everyone to see. You might check and see if any TV stations have something like that in your area.

[THATJEFFGUY]

Yeah there are several consumer advocate TV shows like that in the LA area that I intend to contact about this.
Hey, it's FREE advertising for Sy & Commander Boats !!!

[v-drive]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
I just hate the BS legal system..its a waste of money and usually a joke. But I do intend to push this matter as far as possible though, and after contacting the CA Attorney General, CA Dept. of Consumer Affairs, CA Insurance Commissioner, hopefully it will be almost impossible for anyone to insure and/or finance another boat from Commander due to their fraudulent business practices. I'm sure the media would love to get ahold of this story too ! I have spoken to my insurance company and finance company underwriters, and they may even step up to the plate also because they were frauded too !!
Sy, you might wanna schedule another court date to modify your recent Chapter 11 Bankruptcy filing !! You might as well go ahead and file Chapter 7...or just sign the company over to me, whichever is cheaper and easier for you !
I'm an honest businessman myself, and I just detest ****ing cheating liars and crooks like this !!
http://members.aol.com/jeff2233/commander
Yeah the legal system is bullshit but in your case you need it. Talk to a lawyer but don't go to a bullshit attorney get a good one. You have a case,someone sold you that boat as a 2002 and it's a 98 something was tampered with. Do it! v-drive

[DUNDUN]

Originally posted by ***boat
This is very simple and we have been through it before.
1. ***boat.com cannot get in the middle of anything that might become legal action, and further more we will not risk the ability to provide this free service making ourselves liable in any way.
2. This could very well be considered slander and commander could very well sue the poster over this matter.
3. If you really have a problem then take it to court. If what you posted is true then you have a case and you can post the results anywhere you want as that will be completed legal action.
You will notice that the above post has been edited. If I remove your post or edit it there is a really good chance I did not want you to re-post the same thing. If you post this again you will be banned. If you re-register and continue to post your ISP will be notified of the abuse and I will religiously annoy them about it until your account is canceled, you are blocked from this site at the root or legal action is taken.
In case I was not clear, I do not like it when people re-post things that have been edited.
I guess I could understand why you guys would want NO part in this topic. I think that it sucks that you can't allow this on the boards but I understand why you can't also. I didn't mean to bash ***boat but the whole situation sucks, Thanks again for the heads up jeff. Now My family will probably avoid Commander Boats and avoid this problem.

[572Daytona]

I guess Marine Power doesn't spend enough in advertising with Hot Boat :rolleyes:
Next time just put possible fraud in the title and you shouldn't have to worry about libel or slander issues

[slink]

THATJEFFGUY, I came in late and didnt get to see your original post, but it sounds like maybe they sold you a 98 boat with 2002 registration ? if that's the case, have your attorney research CVC 4462/63 (California vehicle code) it has to do with falsifing reg. if it fits your circumstances, It is a criminal offense and arrestable. since he is a dealer (and should know better)it would be a felony.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by slink
since he is a dealer (and should know better)it would be a felony.
Bookem Dano...

[flat broke]

I'm going to echo what everyone else has already stated. Talk to a GOOD lawyer. Pay the couple of hundred for a consult, and at the end you'll know if you have a case. If you do, your fees will be covered in the settlement. If you don't then a good lawyer will advise you of such, and you are only out a couple hundred bones.
Here's your chance to back what you stated to ***boat about not wanting other boaters to get screwed as justification of reposting your rant. If you take this case to trial and win, you can bet commander will be selling fewer boats. And as such, you will have saved lots of people from buying shitty boats and dealing with crooks. As an aside, hit up Fox 11 news with your story, I'm sure they'd love to pursue a nice fraud case.
And for ***boat, I don't see how you are in the middle on this one. And the "its my board and I'll do what I want to" attitude is lame. While the board is owned by Flynt, it is public in nature and views expressed here May not be the views of ***boat magazine/Flynt publications... yadda yadda yadda, so where again is the risk to Flynt? I'm guessing the risk to Flynt is that Commander will pull their advertising funds, not press legal action. Show some integrity as a journalistic organization and let Jeff's comment's stand and Sy can come on as he has in the past and post his side. I still fail to see how you guys would be caught in the middle of a lawsuit. Does that mean that if I run into Jeff at Starbucks and he tells me about the incident (which I now cant read about thanks to your vigilant censorship), Starbucks would be on the hook for a slander suit from Commander? For the record, since the accusation wasn't made orally, I would guess that you guys would be on the hook for libel not slander, IF you somehow found yourself in the "middle of it". :rolleyes:
Jeff, go ahead and take the scumbag to court. We all bitch about a lack of credibility in this business, you've been wronged, so turn your negative experience into a chance to do something positive for the industry and let the public record reflect what you already know about commander boats.
Chris

[Jrocket]

Very well said Flat Broke!

[twistedpair]

This isn't the only boating venue on the web. I'd post my experiences on any and all boating related boards. Is the domain name (insert manufacturers name here)Sucks available? There is a guy who has a Baja who was really dissatisfied with his boat and started a less than flattering web page that featured Baja's name, and the courts upheld his right to do so.
Ironic how such staunch defenders of free speech (Larry Flynt Publishing) would deny your right to the same.

[Tom Brown]

I don't think Larry gets online as much as he used to.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by 572Daytona
I guess Marine Power doesn't spend enough in advertising with Hot Boat :rolleyes:
Next time just put possible fraud in the title and you shouldn't have to worry about libel or slander issues
Maybe it has more to do with collection for money from old advertizing...
Course with a reputation like they have earned, I think they'd be a COD client...

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Originally posted by flat broke
Show some integrity as a journalistic organization and let Jeff's comment's stand and Sy can come on as he has in the past and post his side.
EXACTLY! Provide the service to the poublic that you claim to proivde by informing your readers about what is going on in the industry.
The tag line on every issue of Hot Boat:
Hot Boat
THE ONLY PERFORMANCE BOATING MAGAZINE THAT MATTERS
If that is truly the case then sack up and do some investigation when you find about this type of stuff! So you may lose Commander's advertising dollars, big deal they are POS boats anyway!

[Jordy]

After reading the whole story uncensored on another (www.riverratlife.com/forums/board/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001672;p=1#0000 02) website that didn't delete it, all I can say is that I would like to know if someone out there was doing what was done in this case. Not that I would ever buy a C*******R but if anyone I knew was looking at one I could tell them to run. If it happened to me, I'd be on the 5:00 news by now. Absolutley unbelievable. :(

[Dr. Eagle]

Jordy, I agree, absolutely criminal. They belong behind bars...

[H20 Party Starter]

Marine Power Sucks!:D ;)
I really hope Sy finally does a little hard time- HE DESERVES IT for far more than this:mad:
Good Luck Jeff:cool:

[Kilrtoy]

The following is from the California Vehicle code
9872.1. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale, receive, or have in his or her possession any vessel, or component part thereof, from which the hull identification number has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vessel or component part has attached thereto a hull identification number assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's number..
That is not the "HULL" thing but you get the meat of it. It is only a misdemeanor. There are other penalities that can be attached along with this section in various criminal and civil courts.
This story reaffirms, why, I would only buy from a very FEW (I can count them on one hand) of manufactures.
Sorry to hear about your story Jeff

[Garrddogg]

Hot boat = not cool on this one !
Jordan = thanks for the link,I wouldnt have found it for weeks ! Jeff = that sh1t sucks man good luck takem to court!
Comander = You fu@ked up !

[Dr. Eagle]

To follow your lead Force........
ON this one
HOT BOAT = In need of counseling...

[silver surfer]

Report them to the DMV for fraud as well. Speak with a DMV Investigator.

[ahhell]

If that is truly the case then sack up and do some investigation when you find about this type of stuff! So you may lose Commander's advertising dollars, big deal they are POS boats anyway!
WOW!... are you mad at the Boat or the guy selling them?
I like my Commander, now its being called a POS. what was done is wrong no doubt. Maybe i should have bought a Bayliner?!?!?

[silver surfer]

DMV Investigator Ben Marquez: 909-466-1008. He helped me with a problem boat manufacturer. I won't say names so that I don't get banned from this glorious site.

[RandyH]

Originally posted by ***boat
This is very simple and we have been through it before.
1. ***boat.com cannot get in the middle of anything that might become legal action, and further more we will not risk the ability to provide this free service making ourselves liable in any way.
Total BS. ***boat has done nothing towards the Defamation of the MFG.
2. This could very well be considered slander and commander could very well sue the poster over this matter.
Slander is spoken Defamation, I question your knowledge of the law.
3. If you really have a problem then take it to court. If what you posted is true then you have a case and you can post the results anywhere you want as that will be completed legal action.
ThatJeffGuy can express his opinion, so long as his statement of opinion is just an opinion, not containing specific facts that can be proved untrue. If he stated facts, then he must know them to be true, thus making them facts and therefore no case of Defamation could be brought against him. But Who cares, who died and made you judge and jury.
You will notice that the above post has been edited. If I remove your post or edit it there is a really good chance I did not want you to re-post the same thing. If you post this again you will be banned. If you re-register and continue to post your ISP will be notified of the abuse and I will religiously annoy them about it until your account is canceled, you are blocked from this site at the root or legal action is taken.
In case I was not clear, I do not like it when people re-post things that have been edited.

[bordsmnj]

it seems if a magazine was threatened with legal action from one of it's advertizers they could tell that advertizer to pound sand and where would that leave the advertizer?i'm sure that in all that ch.11 re organising they got a bunch of extra money to try and sue a publisher at the risk of stepping on there own dick. but i think jordy had the most right on post yet. as for that response from ***boat, i aint buyin' it.

[jbtrailerjim]

Jeff, That suck's:mad: Sorry to hear about your problem. I would be absolutely amazed if anybody that read's these board's would ever buy a Commander from that piece of shit Sy. Commander Boat's= A joke of a company. I don't think Sy would have to do any jail time for this but.....If he is found guilty of this he would probably lose his dealer's license for sure. It's kinda hard to sell boat's to the public without a dealer license. Sy is an absolute fool for not trying to help Jeff out.

[JESSE]

when some one ask about omega(the boat works) i told him of my bad dealing with forest, and that was not removed. but when was the last time you seen an omega boat ad in hot boat.

[manuel]

Offshoreonly.com has a BAD BUSINESS LIST forum, with over 19,000 members it would get some exposure there,
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=141

[J540]

WOW!... are you mad at the Boat or the guy selling them?
I like my Commander, now its being called a POS. what was done is wrong no doubt. Maybe i should have bought a Bayliner?!?!? [/B][/QUOTE]
ever wonder why they are less$$$$, then most:) why dont you take yours apart, and realy look in to it.
***boat WHY dont you put the post back up, you know dam well you are not liable, for what is an opinion. I my self would not buy 1 of them P.O.S's (my opinion) any way, BUT if i fact this did happen, it could mabe happen again, and if he did
:cry: and say he would pull his ad, were would he place his ad, IN POWER BOAT :D yah right. when HOW many people read HB.

[GrapeApe]

I just got my renewal to Hot boat.. I just put it in the garbage.... F**k that s**t.... Censorship crap... I have more fun talking with you guys anyways..... I am not giving them another dollar...
*** Grape Ape ***

[HCS]

Commander's might not be POS's, but their employees and their
management are. What....you scam someone for 47,000.00 and
that's ok. No way. Sounds to me like as far as the company goes,
their policy is, you snooze you loose.

[hd&boatrider]

I know I have defended Commander in the past, based on my experience, which was postive. However, if this happened as Jeff indicated I would consider it very serious and would go fo the jugular. No way would I let it go....no way

[Phat Matt]

I have defended Commander in the past based on my experiences because they have been good. If this is what happened to Jeff, (and I don't think he is lying) the situation needs to be corrected. But I still love my boat and I don't think it is a POS! :confused:

[BoatPI]

I did not read the original post by Jeff. But I think I get the drift based upon the comments. If someone has changed the HIN , altered it on a boat that was previously sold, that is a crime. This area happens to be my area of expertise. In CA the law is very weak on this, a good felony for vehicle VIN changing (commonly refered as switching), but for vessels, well, weak.
What is often prosecuted as a straight felony is 118 PC, Perjury. Every form the DMV prints has a line that states Declaration under penality of perjury. So this is the serious one.
I strongly suggest Jeff contact the named DMV investigator, or a member of an Auto Theft Taskforce in the County where the sale was made. In Riverside County it is RAID, part of the Sheriff's Department. Let them review what he has. They will investigate and run it through their Deputy District Attorney that specalizes in such cases. A civil suit if warranted is seperate.
Understand that I am not taking a position of truth on this, just providing suggestions to Jeff if he believes he was ripped. This has happend in the past with other MFG's. It is also not uncommon in insurance fraud cases. I have found several and had excellent results in the end. People do pay in the end.
Remember generally ANY member of an Auto Theft Taskforce or CHP Officer DO NOT need a search warrant to inspect any vessel, vehicle, or MFG. I would also suggest that anyone who beleives they are defrauded in a simular maner NOT post this on the boards until the cops are working it, and you tell them. No sense in telegraphing anyone commiting such activity.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by jetdrive
OK.... I've had it... Who the hell does this "***boat Administrator" think he is? Mr. Judge and Jury I guess...
Mr Flynt (U champion of free speach unless your own advertising dollars are at stake), whoever this guy/gal is, you either need to make sure his ass is fired, or all [or at least majority] of us HB readers will just plain stop buying your magazine.
In my opinion, whoever he is, he needs to come out and appologize for his inaccurate and unjustifiable response to Jeff and repost his original message IMMEDIATELY... In case he has forgotten where he lives... This is America and we value our freedom of speach without any censorship.
Harumph....Harumph......Harumph........

[bigq]

Originally posted by jetdrive
OK.... I've had it... Who the hell does this "***boat Administrator" think he is? Mr. Judge and Jury I guess...
Mr Flynt (U champion of free speach unless your own advertising dollars are at stake), whoever this guy/gal is, you either need to make sure his ass is fired, or all [or at least majority] of us HB readers will just plain stop buying your magazine.
In my opinion, whoever he is, he needs to come out and appologize for his inaccurate and unjustifiable response to Jeff and repost his original message IMMEDIATELY... In case he has forgotten where he lives... This is America and we value our freedom of speach without any censorship.
Free speech has absolutely nothing to do with what the admin did. It is their board and they can do anything they want to. I know of no law or right that says they need to allow us to post. It's just a business providing a forum for members that you joined by your own will. On the other hand they do have selective editing.;)

[C-2]

Originally posted by BoatPI
I strongly suggest Jeff contact the named DMV investigator, or a member of an Auto Theft Taskforce in the County where the sale was made. In Riverside County it is RAID, part of the Sheriff's Department. Let them review what he has. They will investigate and run it through their Deputy District Attorney that specalizes in such cases. A civil suit if warranted is seperate.
I think the RAID guy in Riverside County is named Detective Larry Lansford. He was working on Charlie's stolen boat case.

[Kachina26]

Originally posted by jetdrive
OK.... I've had it... Who the hell does this "***boat Administrator" think he is? Mr. Judge and Jury I guess...
Mr Flynt (U champion of free speach unless your own advertising dollars are at stake), whoever this guy/gal is, you either need to make sure his ass is fired, or all [or at least majority] of us HB readers will just plain stop buying your magazine.
In my opinion, whoever he is, he needs to come out and appologize for his inaccurate and unjustifiable response to Jeff and repost his original message IMMEDIATELY... In case he has forgotten where he lives... This is America and we value our freedom of speach without any censorship.
That's almost as bad as my kid trying to tell me he has free speech in MY house (he ain't that stupid yet). But until you are footing the bill for this site and accepting the risk of lawsuit, you need to live by their rules. That being said, I'm glad I read TJG's story and it does need to be out there. But HB has decided not on this forum. I think you can see it on another (cough)riverratlife(cough) site.

[Dr. Eagle]

Wait a minute, your kid didn't have free speech in your house???
WTF, did I do it wrong all those years........
LOL:p

[RiverToysJas]

I read this whole story before Hot Boat got all high and mighty to protect their advertiser, over informing their customer.
I think Jeff should contact Ric Romero the Consumer Protection guy at ABC 7.
If they decide to put you on TV, I'd mention that Hot Boat (the ONLY boating magazine that matters to porn king Larry Flynt) wouldn't even allow you to express the facts of what happened or warn other boat consumers on their message board.
RTJas

[bigq]

Originally posted by RiverToysJas
I read this whole story before Hot Boat got all high and mighty to protect their advertiser, over informing their customer.
I think Jeff should contact Ric Romero the Consumer Protection guy at ABC 7.
If they decide to put you on TV, I'd mention that Hot Boat (the ONLY boating magazine that matters to porn king Larry Flynt) wouldn't even allow you to express the facts of what happened or warn other boat consumers on their message board.
RTJas
The one problem is that there are no facts yet, it's just one guy slamming a manufacture on a public forum, where are the facts? The owner of this site doesn't know him from a hole in the ground, could be some wack job.

[Rexone]

Originally posted by bigq
The one problem is that there are no facts yet, it's just one guy slamming a manufacture on a public forum, where are the facts? The owner of this site doesn't know him from a hole in the ground, could be some wack job.
That's absolutely correct. There are no facts until proven so in court. Only acusations. ***boat is protecting its intrests legally because in today's litigeous society everyone who is even remotely involved in anything, right or wrong, is hauled into court and forced to defend themselves (interpret that as spend money unnecessarily defending themselves).
If it were my forum I'd have done the same thing. Let Channel 7 handle it. That's what they do. Expose stuff for a living. And I'm sure they have the insurance coverage to deal with anyone who might come after them on reporting information that might not be 100% accurate.
The only free speech is on the street corner or through any media you can convince to air your message (intrepeted they do not have to air your message). And then only subject to city ordinances. You guys are crackin me up on this free speech on a private website thing.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Rexone
If it were my forum I'd have done the same thing. Let Channel 7 handle it. That's what they do. Expose stuff for a living. And I'm sure they have the insurance coverage to deal with anyone who might come after them on reporting information that might not be 100% accurate.
You guys are crackin me up on this free speech on a private website thing.
Well Mike, with all due respect, (and I have plenty for you) consistency is key in the application of such policies. That seems to be lacking in this case. The day before you had a guy slamming Marine Power's name all over hell and gone. Next day someone does the same with Commander boats and suddenly it's not OK. Therein lies the issue....:confused:
As far as the free speech thing, I was chuckling about that too... that's why the harumphs... I wanted to see what else would follow... pretty entertaining..;)

[THATJEFFGUY]

Hey BigQ...First of all, I have no reason to come on the boards and slam this particular manufacturer without first doing research and getting all of my facts in order. I spent alot of time and money to get this information and the properr documents prior to making any statements about this fraud case. Secondly, I don't appreciate you referring to me as some "wack job". You also responded to this post on the "other board", asking why would I even come to the boards and mention this situation ? I think it's pretty obvious...there are alot of prospective boat buyers out there and I think everyone should be aware of this type of fraud within the boating industry. I'm sure if it were you getting ready to drop some serious cash for a new Commander Boat, you would like to know about this first. However, if you don't think this information is important, or think I am just posting this as a joke, then I have a 2002 Commander 26 Signature for sale with low low hours, for sale....you may be interested.

[bigq]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
Hey BigQ...First of all, I have no reason to come on the boards and slam this particular manufacturer without first doing research and getting all of my facts in order. I spent alot of time and money to get this information and the properr documents prior to making any statements about this fraud case. Secondly, I don't appreciate you referring to me as some "wack job". You also responded to this post on the "other board", asking why would I even come to the boards and mention this situation ? I think it's pretty obvious...there are alot of prospective boat buyers out there and I think everyone should be aware of this type of fraud within the boating industry. I'm sure if it were you getting ready to drop some serious cash for a new Commander Boat, you would like to know about this first. However, if you don't think this information is important, or think I am just posting this as a joke, then I have a 2002 Commander 26 Signature for sale with low low hours, for sale....you may be interested.
Jeffguy, I personally didn't say you were a wack job, read my post, HB might think this is what I meant. I was just reasoning why HB did what they did. I have never met you so I can't say one way or the other . As far as my ohter post on the other board, that is where i read the story since HB editied you. nothing personal , it can't be. If you want to help other turn in your info and have them arrested and tried for the crime. This is all I was saying. Sorry if it was coming out wrong.
BTW.. I like your canopies.:D BigQ <----kissing up:)

[Tom Brown]

Originally posted by jetdrive
I think bigq and Rexone are also on porn king flynt's payroll... or comes to think of it, they are probably on Commander boats payroll as well...
Since I don't like your point of view, I think you're gay.
Be proud. :D

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Tom Brown
Since I don't like your point of view, I think you're gay.
Be proud. :D
LMFAO...... you're killing me........ LOL..........LOL......

[THATJEFFGUY]

Thanks BigQ...maybe I read it wrong. Now...as for the canopy, what color do you want ??? :D

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
Thanks BigQ...maybe I read it wrong. Now...as for the canopy, what color do you want ??? :D
More importantly what should it say on the front.......:D

[Rexone]

Originally posted by jetdrive
I think bigq and Rexone are also on porn king flynt's payroll... or comes to think of it, they are probably on Commander boats payroll as well...
I won't even print what I think of that gem jetdrive. You couldn't be more offbase. But at least it shows how you think. Everything's about money right. not.
btw deleting your post after you've been quoted is slightly gay.

[Dr. Eagle]

Originally posted by Rexone
I won't even print what I think of that gem jetdrive. You couldn't be more offbase. But at least it shows how you think. Everything's about money right. not.
btw deleting your post after you've been quoted is slightly gay.
I wasn't touching that one either..... it was... perhaps .... way over the top....

[Kachina26]

Originally posted by jetdrive
I think bigq and Rexone are also on porn king flynt's payroll... or comes to think of it, they are probably on Commander boats payroll as well...
I agreed with them too, where's my check?

[Seadog]

From what I have seen, which is by no means complete, we are talking about a company that is still doing business (Commander) vs one that has admitted wrong doing and is getting out of Dodge. The Commander company, if TJG fails to sue successfully, could hold HB liable for any damages, real or imagined.
It is also a reality that HB is the owner of this site and has the right to dictate what gets posted. If they were that interested in censorship, the whole post and any followup posts would be deleted. That they would allow any discussion at all, indicates that the wording of TJG's post was potentially liabous.
LIfe sucks, get over it.

[RiverPirate]

It looks like most everything has been covered here, however I can add my personal experience with HIN numbers. When I bought my first Eliminator they forgot one of the numbers in the HIN which they mold on the stern of the boat. I took delivery and quite by accident months later I noticed that my registration didn't match the HIN. I took the boat back to Eliminator and they fixed the problem in a couple of hours. The point of the story being, I couldn't tell that they had even changed/added a number to the HIN. It didn't take much work and there was no evidence that it had been changed. I found that quite interesting 10 years ago that a HIN could be changed on a boat and you would never know.
Good luck HBJ, don't give up the fight.

[Jrocket]

Originally posted by Seadog
The Commander company, if TJG fails to sue successfully, could hold HB liable for any damages, real or imagined.
How could they,explain?
And no life doesnt suck!

[haulina29]

Hey Gman i saw you in a tux with a head set on pushin Larry around the HUSTLER casino in his gold plated chair saturday nite now fess up boy your busted ! :D

[Kilrtoy]

Im getting ready to sell my 65 convertible mustang.
Anyone know of a dealer that can change my vin to make it a 2005 and sell it for me....

[OGShocker]

I wish I would have been here when this thread started. I would have made us all a bigass bowl of popcorn.:D

[Rexone]

hey don't blow my cover h29. hey how's weaverville treatin ya.
we needed a couple barrels for this one og. and all it's brothers and sisters.

[Cas]

no comment, I don't want to be named in a lawsuit. :D
Good Luck Jeff!

[ROZ]

Originally posted by Rexone
You guys are crackin me up on this free speech on a private website thing.
Yea, didn't everyone agree to the terms and conditions of using the site when you registered? :p
Other people's kids......:D

[***boat]

Note, almost all of the original post is now back at the beginning of this thread. It might go away again, we will see what happens Monday.

[OGShocker]

Originally posted by ***boat
Note, almost all of the original post is now back at the beginning of this thread. It might go away again, we will see what happens Monday.
Thanks for putting the opener back up HB! I was a little lost last night.:D
Jeff,
You got a little more than a bad deal on this. Same thing happend to me on a "custom built"motorhome. It took us eight years to get any money back on that one. After all the lawyer bills I was happy to get 20% of what I spent for the bus.:mad:
Good luck,
OGS

[Seadog]

If HB knowing allowed a posting that devalued the worth of a product/business, they could be liable for the loss of value. Since a boat company lives by its reputation, especially if they are in bankruptcy, their reputation is very important.
TJG does have a viable lawsuit since they documented the boat as a 2002 and there is evidence that it was a 98 and used. Commander should pay the difference in value between a 2002 and a 1998 model, plus legal fees incurred. Of course, bankruptcy can put everything into a tailspin. Depending on the particulars, TJG could wind up with only .10 on the dollar and the manufacturer could just go belly up. With the gas prices and other factors, many narrow margin manufacturers would do well to shutdown and take a few years off.

[haulina29]

Ever read the editorials in Hustler ? this is minor league stuff for Larry I bet they sack up and let it ride ;) Larry Flynt is the last person on the face of the earth i would take to court

[kcm21]

Well I think that the whole Hb editing thing has been beaten into the ground so I won't address that, except it is their forum so post the story without all the F bombs being dropped on Commander and their sleezy employees!
That being said to all of you people (you know who you are) who complimented Sy on addressing the forums after the Chapter11 was announced, I hope you see the real Sy. He is a snake who cares nothing about boaters and only about making a couple bucks! If anyone wants to know my situation check my 2 posts on the 1st and 2nd commander bankruptcy posts. His son (Steve) is a douschebag, who I would gladly throw hooks with anytime anywhere, (Yeah Steve you know who I am, you punk!)Michael is a snake and he promised me a brand new boat just like TJG and I got a filthy boat that already had scratches on it when I picked it up and it was supposed to be brand new, and never returned any calls when I needed help. And anyone that has something nice to say about Sy......I encourage you to go do business with him! I think as soon as I get home I am gonna check my hull # and hopefully I can get ahold of the previous owner! That would be a blessing in disguise if it wasn't what they said it was! Then I could buy something worthwhile!
I wouldn't trust any of there employees they are all snakes, and scumbags, and I only hope that in the end they get theirs!
Oh yeah and F Commander I strongly dislike them and their product! And before I get flamed I still own one but it is going in the trader this week! Anyone want to buy one?:D

[summerlove]

I apologize in advance for the length of this, but I havde had to defend myself against another message board in the past and this is the legal info I found at the time. The owner of the boards, in this case, HB, would not be liable for what is posted but they do have the discretion to take it down...:confused: The poster, however, could be liable :frown:
In any event, interesting reading...
What is a "message board"?
A message board is a place on a Web site where a visitor can type a message (known as a "post").
Upon accessing a board, visitors will see a list of message titles sorted by the time and date posted as well as the author's name-in most cases, an alias. Clicking on the title brings up the message for review.
Visitors can easily navigate around a board - ranging from message replies to keyword searchs for a particular topic or author.
Once posted, a message can be viewed by any visitor to the message board. Visitors may reply to the message by posting another message. In this way, message boards enable exchanges of information, ideas or opinions - as well as a great deal of gossip and rumors.
Message boards also are known as bulletin boards or BBSs. Note that "chat rooms" are different than message boards. See more @ chat rooms.
What is a "cybersmear"?
A common description for messages that contain false and disparaging information about someone or something. For example, Cybersmears can significantly impact a company's stock price.
What types of legal actions can be brought against harmful messages?
There are numerous types, many of which are state law actions, including:
· Fraud
· Defamation or libel
· Trade secrets
· Harassment
· Invasion of privacy
· Stock manipulation
· Breach of fiduciary duty
· Breach of contract
· Respondeat superior for employee's misconduct
· Copyright or trademark infringement
Will a sponsor prevent the posting of a message that violates a law?
No - sponsors do not pre-screen or approve message content.
All sponsors have policies that prohibit certain types of conduct on their boards - as well as disclaim any requirement to screen messages before they are posted. However, sponsors universally reserve the right in their policies to monitor their boards and remove messages at their discretion.
Some sponsors randomly review messages after they have been posted - this practice appears to fall within a publisher's traditional editorial duties and is protected by a federal law that immunizes sponsors for messages on their boards (and by recent cases that have upheld a broad interpretation of this law). See more @ sponsor liability for messages.
Can sponsors be held liable for the messages posted on their boards?
Probably not for defamation and other publication torts - particularly if a sponsor does not take actions that go beyond a traditional publisher's editorial role. However, sponsors may be found liable for copyright infringements or trademark violations.
Congress has enacted a law to protect sponsors - and this law has been upheld in the courts so far. The cases have broadly interpreted the law to protect sponsors - allowing sponsors to decide whether to publish, delete, postpone or alter content provided by third parties without liability.
There still are some open issues, such as how far can a sponsor edit content before it's deemed to have conducted activities not contemplated in the law - and how inclusive is the protection for providers of "interactive computer services"?
In addition to the protections provided by this federal law, each sponsor's policy disclaims liability for the content of any of the messages on their boards. These disclaimers can serve as another defense against liability.
Source: Under Section 230(c) of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 (known as the "Good Samaritan" provision), sponsors are immune from liability for messages posted on their boards by third parties. Cases that have upheld the Good Samaritan provision include: Prodigy Communications Corp. v. Lunney, 723 N.E. 2d 539 (NY 1999)(sponsor held not liable for defamatory messages on its site without its knowledge or participation) and Zeran v. America Online, Inc., 129 F.3d 327 (4th Cir. 1997), cert. denied U.S. Supreme Court (1998)(AOL held not liable for allegedly acting unreasonably slow to delete alleged defamatory messages).
:frown:

[Desert Rat]

Originally posted by haulina29
Ever read the editorials in Hustler ? this is minor league stuff for Larry I bet they sack up and let it ride ;) Larry Flynt is the last person on the face of the earth i would take to court
Or Al Davis :D

[C-2]

Come on everybody……
Respectfully, I don’t think anybody on this board is legally competent enough (myself included) to render a definitive answer as to whether or not an ISP or website owner can be held liable for libelous posts. Even the court’s haven’t figured it out!
;)

[Jrocket]

Originally posted by C-2
Come on everybody……
Respectfully, I don’t think anybody on this board is legally competent enough (myself included) to render a definitive answer as to whether or not an ISP or website owner can be held liable for libelous posts. Even the court’s haven’t figured it out!
;)
Now that sounds more like it.I agree with you.I do beleive Hot Boat is protecting their advertisers though,which is BS in my opinion.

[GlastronGuy]

Originally posted by RiverDave
...why are people still bashing them for it?
RD
Because we can?

[THATJEFFGUY]

I have to agree with RD..even though the bashing continues, ***boat DID decide to put my original post back up...good choice !!! I also understand the position of the moderator of the board, who only takes orders from a "higher-up"...so why should they risk it and lose their job. After considering the facts, I guess ***boat decided this truly was valuable info that should be shared with others, THANKS ***boat ! I hope that my recent BS with Commander Boats has infulenced any prospective boat buyers, and also changed the mind of those few "Commander Lovers" who have flamed me in the past for bashing Commander.
Here's an interesting quote that some of you may remember, posted on 02-10-2004 by the infamous Sy Singhal....
"The purpose of this thread is to let all Commander Boat owners know that I am personally dedicated to take care of Commander customers. Customer satisfaction is Commander Boats' top priority.
And another one posted on 02-07-2004, by Sy's son Steve...
"I have received numerous phone calls from our customers, concerned about the unfair bashing of Commander Boats. I would like everyone to know that Sy and I are are here to take care of any problems that our customers have. We are only a phone call away."
Hey kcm21....sounds like you're another happy customer ! So does "class action" sound appealing to you also ??

[kcm21]

Check your pm!:D

[Ziggy]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
I hope that my recent BS with Commander Boats has infulenced any prospective boat buyers, and also changed the mind of those few "Commander Lovers" who have flamed me in the past for bashing Commander.
Jeff, I never flamed you for posting your opinion but rather I got flamed for sharing my experience with Commander that differed from some others...not all commander owners are dissatisfied.
Regardless, if your facts are solid I support whatever method of remedy you find necessary to "fix the problem" you are having right now.
I had good performance from my first Commander and so far the same with my new one.
I really do feel bad for your situation and hope that it comes to an amicable and quick resolution.:cool:

[stilwaitn]

Hey Jeff trust me your not alone when it comes to having problems with Commander.I bought my 26 sig. in January and I'm still waiting for my boat.Every time I've gone down to check on progress all I get is it will be done next week or Sy is to busy eating his sandwich to talk to me.Heck I went down to Commander today and Sy was rude and started crying like a little girl and locked himself in his office when I tried to confront him about the situation.I had to talk with Bill because Sy is to unprofessional to deal with his customers except when he is taking your money.Well I guess that is where Steven gets it from.Like father like son.He's your best pal when he's selling you a boat.Once he gets your money he will never return a phone call.Hey guys or should I say little girls.If you would act like men and take care of your customers like jeff and myself maybe you would'nt have people bad mouthing your company.It's to bad that the guy's out back build a good boat but the management of the company leaves alot to be desired.Based on what I've read about Jeffs situation and mine I would never recommend a Commander boat to anyone unless somebody else takes over the company.

[SoCalOffshore]

Originally posted by stilwaitn
Hey Jeff trust me your not alone when it comes to having problems with Commander.I bought my 26 sig. in January and I'm still waiting for my boat.Every time I've gone down to check on progress all I get is it will be done next week or Sy is to busy eating his sandwich to talk to me.Heck I went down to Commander today and Sy was rude and started crying like a little girl and locked himself in his office when I tried to confront him about the situation.I had to talk with Bill because Sy is to unprofessional to deal with his customers except when he is taking your money.Well I guess that is where Steven gets it from.Like father like son.He's your best pal when he's selling you a boat.Once he gets your money he will never return a phone call.Hey guys or should I say little girls.If you would act like men and take care of your customers like jeff and myself maybe you would'nt have people bad mouthing your company.It's to bad that the guy's out back build a good boat but the management of the company leaves alot to be desired.Based on what I've read about Jeffs situation and mine I would never recommend a Commander boat to anyone unless somebody else takes over the company.
I hope you have not paid them all the money or.....How far along are they in building your boat?

[THATJEFFGUY]

Oh yeah, Sy is definitley a "piece of work" to put it nicely. Why go all the way out to Perris and wait for the sawed-off little bastard to come out and talk to you..just walk right in the little white door on the side of that shack..it goes right to his office...and demand that he talk to you ! Trust me, I have been more than fair with him and dealing with his arrogance..but no more Mr. Niceguy. I'm out to get his ass now - which I will ! You better check your new" boat over carefully. It's taking such a long time because he's probably just waiting for a used one to come back on the lot to re-sell you as new !!
:D

[haulina29]

Hey Jeffguy why did you say you agree with RD he said nothing that agrees with anytihng you said! so if you agree then quit posting . :p

[twistedpair]

Originally posted by THATJEFFGUY
It's taking such a long time because he's probably just waiting for a used one to come back on the lot to re-sell you as new !!
:D
Actually, I bet he is having a real hard time getting parts. I imagine most everyone has him on a 'cash only' account nowadays. Way to screw up an otherwise decent boat line Sy!:yuk: :rolleyes:

[TCHB]

This is all great information and will help all of us in the future. Thanks for posing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This will save a lot of people a lot on trouble in the future. If Commander is fair the will do ok, if not the word will get around one way or another.

[bigq]

Originally posted by stilwaitn
It's to bad that the guy's out back build a good boat but the management of the company leaves alot to be desired.
Well I don't know about that, the rigging is ok at best, but it's done anyway. Of course they did include a Millinium Bud beer can with mine.:D Empty:mad:

[kcm21]

Stillwaitin, Just a piece of advice, if you find one thing wrong with your boat when you go to pick it up, please do not take it. I know you want it badly, but I swear on everything Holy that if you take it and try to return it to have it fixed it will NEVER get done! Oh yeah and charge the little white door on the side of the shack, I have charged it before! Then you will get Sy's undivided attention! In calling down there today I found out that in the past six months the receptionist, the head of service, and the head of finance quit, and then their replacments all quit also!!! I wonder what that means??????????

[bigq]

Originally posted by twistedpair
Actually, I bet he is having a real hard time getting parts. I imagine most everyone has him on a 'cash only' account nowadays. Way to screw up an otherwise decent boat line Sy!:yuk: :rolleyes:
Man if someone could get a hold of all the molds and build a great boat they would have something. The Signature series and cats have great lines.;)

[THATJEFFGUY]

Hey Haulina29...I agreed with RD on the matter that people should quit bashing ***boat even AFTER they put my original post back up. Do my posts bother you in some way ??

[haulina29]

Most of the bashing was done before it was put back up , To agree with him just to agree with him does nothing to help the matter , my point was if you agree with rd stop posting if the problem is not resolved continue on but let everybody speak there mind you started the thread these people are backing you .

[bigkatboat]

I agreed to the 'rules' when I signed up here. You, I, and Rex, MUST play by the RULES! If you want to change things, go ahead, but don't try to change this place. Go out on your own and do/ say what you like! I feel if the first post were an "up date" rather than an attack, it would have been kept 'on line'. We don't know your personal interactions within your lives, and so "in a business sense" we tend to error on the conservative side. This in 'no way' detracts from your input, but it does give everyone time to 'think' about it's outcome. I (personally) could attack a large number of people in this business, many of whom owe me money! WHAT GOOD WILL IT DO! without FACTS TO BACK IT UP, (nothing in writing) Please! Tell us you are having a problem with ..(a company) ..., then GO DO YOUR THING! Then up date us on your progress. When you have PROVEN YOUR POINT! Please update us on the outcome. Since I have been in this business, I have come in contact with all kinds of people, some with 'big names', and some with 'unknown names', the individual customer MUST decide if the 'name' contains the TRUTH, or hides the TRUTH! The old saying " Don't tell me how fast you are, SHOW ME!" still stands! Just DO IT! We all will see your point after the dust settles!

[haulina29]

Play nice or REX will take all his toys and go home :D

[Tom Brown]

Originally posted by haulina29
...if the problem is not resolved continue on but let everybody speak there mind you started the thread these people are backing you .
How about this... everyone just does whatever they want. Sound fair?

[Bow Tie Omega]

Everyone needs to send Commander a little email explaining our dismay in the company and their practices.

[twistedpair]

The owners follow the boards, probably why the thread got deleted in the first place. I'm sure Sy knows their getting killed in here. He also knows how to reply, I'm surprised we haven't seen one yet (or maybe he's invoking the 5th).

[haulina29]

TB isnt that called anarchy ? I beleive the romans tried that once
;)

[kcm21]

The owner does not follow the boards, the only reason they replied last time is that someone shot them an email with a link to the thread that they were getting bashed on, therefore he replied. After he replied last time he got a couple "atta boys" from people in the forums but he would be wise not to stick his face around here anymore!

[hd&boatrider]

I am the one who let Sy know in the past. If this story is correct I will never defend them ever again. Let me clarify.....Instead of defending I just relayed my experiences with them, that's all and mine were good except for the service issues. That is why I started taking my boat to Savage Marine.
Anyhow, here is the em for Commander Boats:
COMMBOATS@aol.com

[Scream]

Jeff, you got screwed, take your action and take it quickly before they die all together. You have every right to keep this thread going and keep the debate about bad business practices in the forfront in my opinion. In my business we've been on the wrong end of bad business practices before and it's never a pretty matter.
Filing for BK is one thing and is usually a result of poor management, but intentionally defrauding your customers is just irrationale. No normal thinking human would do something like that.

[OGShocker]

This is the first time Sy has NOT replied to a negative thread. I wonder why?:confused: :confused: :confused:

[hd&boatrider]

I did send him an em and asked if he wanted to respond. We shall see.

[kcm21]

Oh this should be good!
OG Are you making the popcorn or should I????
I could probably tell you what he is going to say......."bla bla bla, miscommunication, not my fault, take me to court, I have hidden most of my money away so far that none of you will be able to find it. I stand behind Steve he is great, bla bla bla, and we do our best here, there was just a miscommunication! That must be his favorite word because when I threatened to sue him he used it a number of times!

[dicudmore]

Sy's posts have sounded like he was trying to do the right thing with his product and customers.
Jeff's story sounds like they are way way out in left field.
So where is Sy to back up his boat now?

[OGShocker]

Originally posted by kcm21
Oh this should be good!
OG Are you making the popcorn or should I????
I think it is your turn.:D Extra butter on mine please.

[kcm21]

Ok extra butter and silver bullets all the way around while we wait for a reply!!!!!!!!!!!

[OGShocker]

Tick, tock, tick, tock. F it, I am going to Quiznos! Let me know if there is a response.:rolleyes:

[hd&boatrider]

The em I sent has not been read yet.....I will let you know when/if it does get read. 5-11 11:44A
5-11 1:30...still haven't read the message
5-11 5P...still not read

[stilwaitn]

I would'nt hold my breath about Sy returning your email.By the way you can bet the farm on I'll inspect that boat with a fine tooth comb. I can't wait to see what it will be like to get my $1000 credit out of Sy. I guess I'm not the only one pissed when the answer from the secretary when I asked to talk to Sy is your mad about something too. You're only the third guy today.

[stilwaitn]

Originally posted by bigq
Well I don't know about that, the rigging is ok at best, but it's done anyway. Of course they did include a Millinium Bud beer can with mine.:D Empty:mad: I'm surprised Sy did'nt try to charge you extra for that beer can.

[HighRoller]

Back to the top...the popcorn's startin' to pop!!

[SHAKE-YO-AZZ]

:D :D :D :D I just got a 18pack, this will be good.

[HighRoller]

I'm thinkin' before this whole thing is over we could have a new boat company. JCB, or Jeff's Custom Boats, will be opening in January 2005 with any luck:D

[dicudmore]

Originally posted by stilwaitn
I would'nt hold my breath about Sy returning your email.By the way you can bet the farm on I'll inspect that boat with a fine tooth comb. I can't wait to see what it will be like to get my $1000 credit out of Sy. I guess I'm not the only one pissed when the answer from the secretary when I asked to talk to Sy is your mad about something too. You're only the third guy today.
THIS IS CRAZY STUFF.....
How much of a down do they have? I'd think about bailing and ordering from someone else, that actually builds boats and not bull-shit.

[h2oski2fast]

I wouldn't hold your breath. He can't even find the time to run his business correctly (thus the Chptr 11), let alone find the time to deffend an undeffenable situation.
If anyone needs any warranty on their commander boat, I would suggest you have the repair done elsewhere and suck up the cost, it'll be easier then having to go through all the hassle of dealing with the customer service people (who are acustom to dealing with irrate customers).
Let this be said: I, myself do not own a commander boat. I was asked and put in charge by a friend of mine to handle the details of his boat (from bigging to end, and even now 2 years later). I, also, would be the last person to involve a legal battle to get warranty issues solved.
I'm not going to over all the details of the unsatisfactory, or lack of, customer service. If you do a search you'll find numerous post addressing the situation. Even to be fair to commander, I also listed in one of my posts that I thought the boat handled great, which it did.
I understand Sy's admiration of his son, Steve. The only time I dealt with Steve, was when I had the boat a part to install the stereo. When I removed the panels, I saw a very poor rig job. The hydralic hoses where just hung from front to back and had no fasteners in the middle. On top of this, all the wiring was just loosely zip tied to the hoses. I called commander and Steve came by the shop to check it out. After looking at the "shoty" rigging, he proceeded to tell me that they got excellent ratings from HB during their evaluations. I just stood there with a blank look my face, thnking did he really just say that? What kind of answer was that for the situation at hand?
I can go on about this all day, but I think everyone gets the picture. Bottom line is I would never recommend commander boats to anyone.
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of a great price is forgotten.

[kcm21]

Their rigging is a joke!
Another story!
The second time I ever took my boat out I made a run from the channel to Steamboat, and it was a typical semi-rough ride but nothing to bad. When I got to Steamboat and opened the cover to my stereo my stereo was gone! I proceeded to go underneath the console and see that my stereo was hanging by a piece of plumbers tape! A freakin piece of plumbers tape that was screwed into the back of the head unit and also into the top of the underside of the console! I almost crapped myself! I was soooo mad.
Seriously pop some freshies I got stories for days, and to show just how stupid I am I actually bought another boat from them!
I must have the word jerkoff tattooed on my forhead!

[roostwear]

I would think that by HB deleting a post about a paid advertiser, it could be viewed as them acting in complicity. Boy, talk about being between a rock and a hard spot.

[SHAKE-YO-AZZ]

i need more popcorn

[kcm21]

I don't know about them being a paid advertisier anymore! Since the BK maybe they won't advertise in HB and then we can bad mouth them all day long. Wait a second that is what I have been doing the last 3 days!

[dicudmore]

just have to vent sometimes i guess

[kcm21]

This is cheaper than going to the shrink! :D

[dicudmore]

EXACTLY....
get a little sympathy and keep your sanity.
besides that if there's some verbal abusing going on I want to get in on it :D

[kcm21]

Yeah I am still sane!!!! I figure 25 is a little early to lose my mind!
Life wouldn't be any fun without trash talking! And really the only reason I bash is that I would not wish my experience, or TJG's, or Stilwaitn's experience on my worst enemy. It sucks and boating is supposed to be a fun thing. I understand that everyone is bound to have a bad experience but soooo many people have had one with them I just want to warn others.

[dicudmore]

warning others = very white :cool:

[Blown_Rob]

i hate commander also they are cheaper for a reason!!!! and they all ride like shit too i hope you burn em good!!!

[$olution$]

Thanks for the input. Sorry about your problems.

[Extreme Liquid]

Jeff,
You need to contact me regarding this issue. I am currently going thru this with Commander also. I am in the process of legal proceedings against Commander. Call me 909 376 3792

[SHAKE-YO-AZZ]

EL, that was fast, this weekend will be a blast

[THATJEFFGUY]

Wow, based on the PM's I have gotten, it seems there are alot more people out there than I expected that have been royally screwed over by the infamous Sy, and Commander Boats. Well, I have a couple of interesting plans in the works, so if you've been screwed by them also, please PM or E-Mail (jeff2233@aol.com) me..remember there's power in numbers !! This guy seriously needs to be punished and thrown in jail for a L-O-N-G time...of course after he gets his ass beat !!

[twistedpair]

Originally posted by Blown_Rob
i hate commander also they are cheaper for a reason!!!! and they all ride like shit too i hope you burn em good!!!
Actually, one of my friends has a 26 signature, and another a 28 cat, and both of them ride really nice. There are however, other issues that don't thrill me. I think if someone else was running the show, Commander could be a top notch boat.

[Debbolas]

bump;)

[HighRoller]

Jeff, I agree with you. I'm not in favor of vigilante justice for the most part, but....oh hell, who am I kidding. Bring out the ***boat lynch mob Baby!!!! I know they all still have blue balls from the Chris Winn affair.

[SHAKE-YO-AZZ]

Originally posted by Blown_Rob
i hate commander also they are cheaper for a reason!!!! and they all ride like shit too i hope you burn em good!!!
Sounds like a hater, my 32 rides very good even better in rough water :cool:

[HighRoller]

Every person I've known who has owned one liked it so I think that person is definitely a hater. I really like the 2300LX, but no way in hell would I ever buy one unless I bought the bare hull and had someone else rig and finish it. I bet I could get a screamin deal if I walked in and told Sy I wanted a blank hull and had cash. His eyes would light up like a slot machine. And no, he wouldn't get my money up front.

[RUCAV]

Jeff
If it werent for guys like you I might have bought a Commander. But, I didnt. (Thank you Ultra). Your keeping us informed of what is happening to you with them is a PSA (Public Service Announcement). You are saving someone from a very painful experience and that is a good thing. I have a friend who was ready to pull the trigger on either a Commander or an Ultra and asked me my .02. I knew I was biased so I let him use my computer to check out Hot Boat. I had him type in Commander Boats and search. Well, lets just say he has no interest whatsoever in purchasing one of their boats.
Stay strong brother!