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View Full Version : I'm afraid to start up my 460



adsala
05-12-2004, 12:44 PM
I have an engine from hell. But it not the 460's fault. I rebuilt my original 460 about three years ago. I didn't want to go too crazy on performance upgrades but here is what I did and all the grief I've had.
Ford 460: Aluminum edlebrock performer RPM heads 92cc. .030 over, 9.1:1 Keith Blacks, Comp xtreme marine cam (234, 244 @.50), comp lifters. Arp bolts through out, excellent machine work etc. Kept the stock size Main and rod bearings as machinist suggested. Rear sump pan, HV pump. I assembled the motor.
Year 2002
First day out, engine runs fantastic. Very healthy! I run the boat around for about three hours for short breakin. After that I go ahead a run the RPMs up and oil pressure drops.
Go home pull engine and oil pan. Readjust pickup and to be safe put in a Mellings HV pump instead of the Milodon. And checked one main bearing for wear and ouch.. total scoring on almost all of the bearings. As I tore the crank down , I find a wire brush wire fragment! Where did that come from?
Pull the crank, send it in to have it taken down .010. Clean all the oil galleries. Reassemble take it back out for a run. Oil pressure not much higher than 40 but I go with it. I have a whole season of fun with my new engine running fantastic till the Mallory dist lost it's two advance tabs and grenades the insides, and shears the dist gear pin. I send it back in under warranty get a new distributor.
Year 2003
Next season, boat runs great till the distributor gear pin shears again. I look in the distributor and it's missing an advance tab??? No damage but in the back of my mind I'm thinking HV pump.
Well, instead of putting the mallory dist back in, I picked up a marine factory replacement distributor(electronic) and install a bigger roll pin on the gear. Go on one last trip with my big family. Pull the kids around in the tube and wham, engine backfires, once again as it did before. I pull the distributor and low and behold the gear was almost ground to a knub!
I used the mallory dist as a backup to get back to the docks. Now I was stumped. Come to figure out that the factory distributor had placed the roll pin hole almost 1/8" off thus not meshing correctly with the cam gear.
New season year 2004
Ok, present day. I send the mallory in once again to warranty the broken advance tab. They give me an upgraded brand new distributor. At least Mallory has supported me. They also put in a bigger roll pin on the gear.
I decided to pull the engine and put in a stock oil pump(I want dependability damm it). I also installed a new cam as the gear showed signs of wear. Used the original lifters(mistake?). Put the engine back together. It started right up. Runs fantastic. Oil pressure at a wopping 65lbs!
Oops, in about 15 minutes, the engine starts really running bad, I mean bad. Thought it was unadjusted valves, No. Distributor, wires, plugs, coil..No. Vacume leak ..NO. I pull the intake and at first it looks like it could have been leaking. But as I was taking it off, I drop a nut into the oil pan Doh! Pull the engine again.
Drop the pan. Inside was full of metal shavings. Man! The product of three flattened lobes on the new cam! Jeez! Time to take a breather. I sat down cracked a beer and just tried to relax. I forgot to break in the cam damn,F#K$#it%$#it.
I was so wound up in trying to set the idle right I didn't follow the procedure. I don't build engines on a regular basis but I used to be a builder in another life and never had these problems.
Regardless, Summit racing made good on the cam and sent me a new one.
So at this point. I've flushed the engine of particles, got new crank and rod bearings, cam and lifters and oil pump all installed. Timing chain is tight. Everything is clean measured and good. You know at least I never had to pull the heads through all of this greif.
Now I am very apprehensive about starting up my engine. Will everything go right? I lubed the cam and lifters, check all clearances. Practically everything is new. Engine only has 30 hours on it. I can't believe the bad luck.
Dean Sala

ssmike
05-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Please do not take offense......But:
Maybe you should "farm out" your engine work instead of doing it yourself.:confused:

adsala
05-12-2004, 02:14 PM
No offense taken. I love working on engines. Just having a run of bad luck. This is about the 50th engine I've built. Never had issues like this before. But learning alot from this experience and from this forum!
I'm measuring twice and cutting once from now on. hehe
Thanks
Dean

powerplay230
05-12-2004, 02:24 PM
Again resident idiot,
But Cam may just have been bad luck breaking in, what does anyone think about the HV pump with either being too close to bottom of pan or weak pan bottom and sucking metal instead of oil...
Consider the source

HammerDown
05-12-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by adsala
Used the original lifters(mistake?). .
Dean Sala
Used lifters on a new Cam= Big Boo-Boo.
New lifters on a semi used Cam= well theres a better chance of it being ok.
PS. the piece of wire...most likely came from a bottle brush when someone cleaned out the oil passages in the block. I hi pressure was them out.

adsala
05-12-2004, 02:47 PM
Powerplay,
Good point about the HV pump . I thought it was too much oil being sucked up or sucking pan metal. But...my pickup has a small bracket welded to the botton to keep it a 1/4" inch above pan bottom. I think moving it up to about 3/8" solved the problem though. It never happen again.
I knew better than use old lifters on new cam. But what's old. They only had 10 hours on them. I took a chance. And, can you believe it, Comp told me it should be ok. I think, this time, it failed because I did not run the RPM's up to 1500-2000 range for breakin. All other lobes looked good. Anyway using new lifters now.
Thanks
Dean

460rogers
05-12-2004, 04:44 PM
A little something something to check.
The 460 has four oil gallery plugs;two in the front and two in the back.The factory plugs are tapered on the tip to allow oil flow aroumd the tapered portion of the plug.Should a straight ,non-tapered plug be installed in these holes oil flow can be decreased or stopped completely.
Hope this helps its from an old hotrod mag/bible.

adsala
05-12-2004, 05:21 PM
460rogers,
I did not know this. There is also another plug in the front side near the oil filter and two smaller ones on top in lifter valley. Are those tapered too. I am not looking at them at the moment. But I know there are tapered plugs in the set and flat ones. I'll be sure to adhere to your guidance.
I wish I knew about ***boat three years ago. Just found out about it a couple months ago. I'm sorry to say without ***boat, I had more wake boat friends than hot boat friends. yikes!
Check this out. I Gelcoated my whole boat in my backyard.
Gelcoat Job (http://www.lynhaven.org/jetboat/)
Dean

UtlGoa
05-12-2004, 05:30 PM
Adsala,
What type of exhaust are you running?

adsala
05-12-2004, 06:39 PM
460rogers,
I looked at my oil plugs. They are all factory plugs. Only two are tapered and I think I removed them from the front. The 460 manual mentions that the longer plugs go in the back. This makes sense as the longer plugs that I have are flat. Any thoughts?
Dean

adsala
05-12-2004, 06:42 PM
UtlGoa,
I'm running the same exhaust that CPPerformance sells. Except I have aluminum risers not the stainless that they show.
460 Exhaust (http://www.cpperformance.com/products/Exhaust/011.htm)

Rexone
05-12-2004, 06:54 PM
Just a tip. After that cam went flat the entire engine was full of metal particles. If you did not "thoroughly" wash the block more problems are likely. By "thoroughly" I mean oil galleys and all passages, lower end, heads, everything. Just a tip from a been there done that'er. ;)

adsala
05-12-2004, 07:27 PM
Rexone,
As I am finding out by reading many many HB threads. Many have flattened lobes on cams. I myself never have so I got sloppy. What a lesson. Yes, I soaped down and bottle brushed all the oil galleries, cleaned the crank oil journals, tops of heads, lifter valley, then blew out everything. then rinsed and rinsed then blew again. Wiped down then Wd40ed. Hopefully I got everything. Although I replaced all the mains and rod bearings again. The old ones looked good. So I think many of the metal filings did not get through to the oil galleries. How are you associated with Rex marine? Are you the owner? I've purchased lots of stuff from Rex. Great staff too.
Appreciate it
Dean

Rexone
05-12-2004, 10:01 PM
Good luck this time around Dean. From the above it sounds like you're due for some. :)
Just another example of just how critical proper cam break in is. Even then sometimes you lose one for no apparent reason.

UtlGoa
05-12-2004, 10:10 PM
What does a set up like that run? I'm thinking about getting rid of my logs and want to get a new exhaust setup, but I don't want to get divorced when the wife finds out how much they are.
Never mind I found the prices!!!!!:frown:

Rexone
05-12-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by adsala
How are you associated with Rex marine? Are you the owner? I've purchased lots of stuff from Rex. Great staff too.
Appreciate it
Dean
Missed before... yes and thank you. :)

adsala
05-12-2004, 10:37 PM
UtlGoa,
Actually this setup came with the boat. I just know Cp sells a replacement just in case I crack mine. I don't know if CpPerformance sells the aluminum risers but the price for the stainless risers are outrageous! What's wrong with the exhaust you have? I think that you are probably ok with what you have. Their part 620-21080 is $669 for the pair. That's almost unjustifiable if you ask me. And you still need the risers. But there is another option. Cp also sells chevy-to-ford exhaust adaptors. This way use can use BB Chevy exhaust systems on ford 460s. Chevy exhaust systems are more available. Maybe cheaper.
Good Luck
Dean

HammerDown
05-13-2004, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by Rexone
Just a tip. After that cam went flat the entire engine was full of metal particles. If you did not "thoroughly" wash the block more problems are likely. By "thoroughly" I mean oil galleys and all passages, lower end, heads, everything. Just a tip from a been there done that'er. ;)
I absolutely agree...
When I wiped my Cam several suggested to "just change the oil" and all's good. NOT SO! The engine must be completely tore down, the oil gally plugs are to be removed and the Block tanked of as I did power washed.
If not you'll never get all the metal debree out of the engine, and what lays in the pan will as I seen 1'st hand gets between the piston skirt and cylinder wall's...do it right or it get's ugly!

BrendellaJet
05-13-2004, 04:58 AM
I think if you are certain you follow everyones comments, you will be fine. You've had a lot of bad luck. Sounds like you were not aware of the plugs(maybe you were) If you did not remove them when cleaning the block out, I would not start it. Better to be safe than sorry.

Dave C
05-13-2004, 08:34 AM
can you put a roller in it?
I know its expensive but whats your time worth to you?..... probably alot.
rollers are good for a few HP too and if your gonna keep the boat why the hell not!.....
BTW nice gel job.
looks like your in my neck of the woods.:D

LakesOnly
05-13-2004, 09:08 AM
In regards to the sudden oil pressure drop, make sure to tighten the oil pump mounting flange evenly and to spec, nothing more. They have been known to fracture at the ear due to overtightening and bleed air into your oiling system...also check for air leaks along your pickup tube.
LO

adsala
05-13-2004, 09:19 AM
I figured out the oil plug thing. And yes my oil plugs were in the right place. You only really need one tapered plug if that! Facing the front of the engine the left hole is where the one tapered plug goes. You can see two oil ports/tubes. One comes from the bottom and, and of course, the other goes through to the lifters at 90 degrees. I figure that's where the tapered plug goes and it did. But I really do not think that the wrong plug would cause any serious oiling problems unless you screwed it in to far.
My previous cam worked fine for two years. Like I said I replaced it because the distributor gear bit it. The distributor gear had been mounted 1/8" to high. Not by me.
Dean

Blown 472
05-13-2004, 09:49 AM
You have the engine out right now? if so lay the number one upper main brg in the block and see how much of the feed hole is covered that sends lube to the dist gear, if it is covered turn the brg over and use a small carbide bit and open the brg up to match the hole in the block. Then the last two upper mains can be opened to match the feed holes in the block.
Do not use a gasket between the block and the oil pump.
You can look into the block and see the galley plugs and how far they are threaded into the block to see if that is killling your flow.

adsala
05-13-2004, 10:56 AM
Good idea about opening the #1 main bearing but too late. The Crank is in. I remember though that the openings looked fine. Thanks
There might be a little misunderstanding. As usual with message boards. I'm not having any oil flow issues that I know of. Someone just made a comment about the oil plugs going into the right place. And they were in the right place.
This is funny. My gear head friend comes over listens to my engine going lub lub lub and says sounds good to me! I wonder how many people just go for it even when the cam lobes are flat! I caught the problem very early. Three lobes were barley gone. All the rest looked perfect. And it all happened at 800-1500 RPM range. I knew something was wrong, I did'nt want to rev on it too hard.
Dean

adsala
05-13-2004, 11:11 AM
Lakesonly and DaveC,
You guys are local to me. If everything goes well, I'll be at berryessa the 10th-13th. If not it'll be the 24-27th. "To the Bridge"
About the oil pressure drop. That was solved. Moved the pickup up a little and installed a new pump. Could of been a problem with the pump. Will never know cause it's gone.
Dean

LakesOnly
05-13-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by adsala
Lakesonly and DaveC,
You guys are local to me. .
Dean
Whoa, dude, your fifteen minutes away...
LO

RENEGADE 3#
05-15-2004, 05:48 PM
hay man thats how we learn doing what your doing. if you never make a mistake how will ya learn? keep plugging at it you will get it sooner or later. dont let someone else fix it for you. GOOD LUCK!!!! get advise but becarefull. :wink: