advice from BLOWNDRAGBOAT

[kanedog]

BLOWNDRAGBOAT:I have read some of your posts and I see that you have a great deal of knowledge of hi-perf motors.I would appreciate any comments that you may have (or advice) about the following story. Being a new ***boat owner I am not looking to argue or debate because my knowledge of what and how combinations will or will not work is just about nill.
My wife and I have purchased a new Eliminator Daytona 26ft cat. The boat is a blank(paint & upholstery only). The local performance shop is going to rig it here.The shop has a motor that was built for someone who lost interest at the end of summer and also ran out of money(boat repo'ed). The motor never made it into his boat. The motor is as follows:
540 blown intercooled 1100 hp
callies 4340 premium crank internally balanced
je forged pistons-anti friction coatings
ceramic top coat
kryptonite 6.385 long rods
fluid dampner balancer
billet steel flywheel
GM mk 6 race prepped block
bronze lifter bores
crane billet cam(solid roller) .714 lift
crane solid roller lifters
crane gold pro rockers.ferria.
.190 exhaust .2250 intake
comp cam's stud girdle
dart 360 full port cylinder heads(polished outside)
arp fasteners:head studs,main cap studs,rocker studsetc
14 qt. offshore race oil pan,windage tray,oilpump&p/u
14/71 littlefield blower kit
superchiller intercooler
2 X 1300 cfm c&j race prepped blower carbs
Mike Kuhl carb inline spacer
stainless steel braided fuel lines
stainless steel braided oil filter and mount
Stainless polished croossover kit
billet polished pulleys
complete marinized minus exhaust
never been started
price includes dyno run
$28,000
Questions:
I want to run on pump gas. Most of our boating will be in freshwater(lakes mostly). We wuold like to run this motor at 800hp with a smaller pulley.Set up correctly, will this be a reliable motor?
Is this a good price?
Will this combination work?(motor is already built)
What maintenance should regularly be performed?
We are thinking IMCO extreme drive?We spent too much to go #6 drive. What do you recommend?It will be getting stellings ext. box.
This is a long post but any or all answers are appreciated as we need all the help and advice we can get. In turn this will help us make important decisions that we may otherwise have no education about.(motors that is)
thank you in advnce,
Kanedog

[DEL51]

Can anyone else give their input on this subject?DEL51

[kanedog]

yes, please do bye all means. Every piece of info helps.

[Craig]

One hell of a motor there, that ought to get you over 70, AND THEN SOME http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif Unless you're into adjusting your valves every 4th or 5th trip out, I'd go with a hydraulic roller cam.
Your use of pump gas will depend on ignition timing, boost level and static compression ratio. I run 34 degrees advance locked in, 8# boost and 9.2 compression. I run AV-gas all the time for safety's sake. Av-gas is good insurance, just a pain in the butt to run to the airport sometimes. Now Havasu, where it's at the Circle K...that's easy! You could easily tune that motor down to your required level and have a good ride.
My boats a little lighter then yours (22') with 878 HP and my drive is alive (so far) If I were doing it again, or when I EVENTUALLY break the Bravo, I'll go with the straight cut XR gears, they seem to be the best thing out there at this point.
Craig

[Unchained]

If you want to know if that is a good price on the engine add up all of the individual components prices. Get a Summit or Jeg's catalog for some prices. There are some guys on the classified parts section of Dragboats.com that have some good prices on new blowers. I think you will be surprised that the total components price is far less than the $ 28k sale price.
Your last line says you have no education about engines. Engines of that caliber need a certain amount of tinkering to stay in top tune. If you are not into engine tuning you may regret buying a HP monster like that.

[Havasu Hangin']

Do you know the duration on the cam? Do you have the Crane part#? Idle quality is underappreciated until you put a cam in that is too big. Race guys usually don't care about docking too much.
I agree on the cam comment. Hydraulic rollers are good up to around 6,000RPMs. Most engine builders go with solid rollers for the steep ramps and high RPMs.
BTW- a bigger pulley will make the blower turn slower- less boost.

[kanedog]

Thanks for info so far guys. I'll check on the duration today and post tonight.

[Infomaniac]

kanedog: Not knowing the rest of the cam specs I suspect it is a bit too much. You will not be happy with a cam that really thumps at idle. It sounds cool but not good for putting a sterndrive in gear, surge at idle is not good on the drive either.
I would decide what RPM you plan to run the engine and select a cam with 114* lobe separation with that RPM range. Hydraulic roller was good advice.
Also I see the potential for problems turning a 14-71 blower with a fluid damper balancer. I would double key the crank and run a blower hub. Been there done that.
I would talk with the carb. folks about the application you plan to use them and see what they have to say.
unchained: Have you ever looked at Doug Herbert for parts?

[missboatnam1]

hey kanedog,call george at clay smith cams,he's really know his shit and will help you with any ?'s you have. as far as cams george put a solid in my blower motors.he told me i only need to adjust the valves once a year,so at the end of summer i would back all my valves down so my springs could relax all winter no sence having them work all winter.at the beginging of summer ajust my valves and i was ready to roll.

[racingrascal]

Sounds like one hell of a motor. I am by no means "an engine builder". But I did just have a motor built for my 19' picklefork that I am having built. We used BRE (Beck Racing Engines) They are in AZ. You might want to give them a call. Because you could save some money and still get a 800 hp motor from them, they also offer a 6 month warranty that comes with their motors. Then you wouldn't be paying for something your not going to use. One thing to with a 1471 blower I think they have to do something with the distributor because it won't fit with that long of a blower. BTW I didn't see the compresion ratio on there? I know BRE offers 900-1,000 hp engines maybe even more and they run on pump gas.
Andy

[Craig]

Hey Racingrascal, you have good luck with BRE? I've seen three of his motors destroyed because of using inferior valve in marine application. Manley street valves in two and Chineese valves in another. Maybe they've changed. They do have a warranty now I guess. But I'd go south to Tucson to Larry Peto, someone who has an extensive boat racing background and specializes in that. Just my 2 cents.
Craig

[kanedog]

infomaniac http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gifid you have problems by not double keying the crank?If so, what were they?
Also, what is a blower hub?

[superdave013]

I just happen to have a BHJ balancer that is doubled keyed with the SFI certification. I also have a 63 tooth 8mm that was machined to fit it. I could be talked into selling them. I can post pics of it and a blower hub when I get home tonight. I would stick with a balancer for what you're doing.
What he means by double keyed is the crankshaft has one keyway on it and another is cut on the opposite side. It could sheer a single key off. But if you have two you will be good to go.

[Infomaniac]

Originally posted by superdave013:
I just happen to have a BHJ balancer that is doubled keyed with the SFI certification. I also have a 63 tooth 8mm that was machined to fit it. I could be talked into selling them. I can post pics of it and a blower hub when I get home tonight. I would stick with a balancer for what you're doing.
What he means by double keyed is the crankshaft has one keyway on it and another is cut on the opposite side. It could sheer a single key off. But if you have two you will be good to go.
kanedog: Superdave is correct. I am not familiar with the BHJ balancer but I bet it is much stronger than the fluid damper.
You are asking too much of the stock key by itself, so they generally machine another one opposite if it.
I turned a B&M blower for many years with one key and a fluid damper balancer. I bolted on a 6-71 and sheared the key off the first time I nailed it. Any more I run a blower hub and double key the crank every time.

[superdave013]

Ok, here is a basic blower hub. Nice and light but won't do much for harmonics. I was only going 1,320' when I used it. You can see that it has two keyways in it. One of them still has the key!
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/023/3x/jg/96/Qg34795.jpg
This is a BHJ balancer with the three bolt hole pattern for bolting v-belt pullies to. It only has two keyways in it because I had the second one cut in it. The blower pulley back was turned on the lathe so it registers on the balancer and redrilled for the three hole pattern. I made over 30 pounds of boost with this set-up.
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/025/lQ/EV/3g/Qf86420.jpg
Now BHJ got smart and started making them with the 6 hole bolt patteren and the correct register for a blower pulley. No more redrilling and cutting the back of the pullys. But they still didn't put the second key in it! So I had one cut in.
It's kinda hard to see as the paint is not messed up yet.
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/003/vN/Hh/TV/Qj55202.jpg

[racingrascal]

Craig I spoke with Ultra28 tonight and he said they have nothing but good luck with BRE motors. Always what they expected. Were the three motors you saw come apart recent? I know the valve train in my motor on paper looked real good. Is that what you heard was the cause thought, bad valve train set up? Lets me know.
Andy

[kanedog]

Superdave:Thanks for the balancer class. I can't believe how helpful everybody is on this forum. I don't know of anywhere else a person can get so much info in one place!!!
I didn't get the cam info today, and I also didn't find out if the crank is double keyed.Thank you for your time as taking pics and posting can sometimes be a big job.

[DEL51]

Kanedog,I had a 572 chev built for 18k.I purchased the blower from littlefield and the 1150 dominators from holley for 700.00 each.The shortblock had all premium components and an ati balancer that was double keyed.I agree with the hydraulic roller cam. If you get a superchiller intercooler,this will provide enough clearance for a low profile msd distributor.A Jessel cam belt drive and oil cooler are recommended.I think you should spend your money on the drive and add the blower later.I am not an expert on the bravo drives.I have read some articles in family and performance boating that talked up the xr and b-max drives.I think the cam they listed will be too agressive.You will have to adjust valves.What about this idea:Build a 572 short block with blower pistons yeilding 8:1 compression.Put a single plane intake,dart or edelbrock,with a dominator.Then put the money saved from the blower setup into the beefed up drive.When you get it all dialed in you could add the blower and another dominator.I like what the other guys said about other deals out there and you can find them.The engine you listed is nice, in fact, it is less expensive than what some Big Name builders charge.I am having second thoughts about what was said about the fluid damper single key setup.I may have gotten lucky. I have ran and will run a 871 blown 468 chev this summer in my friends jetboat.This motor is internally balanced so I can change my damper to something else.I did put the motor through alot and did not have it shear the key,I would like some more input on what happens as far as damage.This motor was not double keyed and ran 6400 rpm at 14lbs of boost,am I lucky?DEL51

[froggystyle]

Originally posted by DEL51:
This motor was not double keyed and ran 6400 rpm at 14lbs of boost,am I lucky?DEL51
Yes! In addition to the single vs. double key debate, no one has added that the extra key is double the size of the stocker. Putting the extra keyway in is no easy task though. You need to pull the crank, have the crank horizontally milled, and fitted for your dampner or blower hub. At this time, balancing the assembly is in order. Often time with a hub it will need to be heated, and this can cause headaches every time you pull or press one on as well. If you do go with the 8:1 compression and no blower for now advice, make sure you include blower rings and this keyway from the beginning. Sucks to pull an engine apart for $100 worth of forgetfulness. Been there, done that. Last time I pulled a normal 454 dual quad apart to re-ring and bearing it, somehow a blown 468 went back in.
That's what she gets for letting me take a motor apart in December! With four months to kill, $2000 or so a month was easy. Just kept sneaking in the shiny stuff....

[superdave013]

I have a question about the above engine. What is the deck height of the block? The rods seem like they could be longer.
Froggy is right on doing it the frist time around. You will also want to have your block o ringed too. Here's a pic of the 572 I'm building right now. You can see the o rings. (I like posting pics as you can tell)
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/002/Pb/b8/cX/gE63827.jpg
[This message has been edited by superdave013 (edited November 21, 2001).]

[boatnam2]

damm superdave that thing looks familar,must of had the work done at CLAY SMITH.

[racingrascal]

That's a sweet Workmate in the back ground SuperDave.
Andy

[superdave013]

boatnam2, It's no secret that george takes care of all my engine part needs!
RR, I scored that workmate from the wife on my last birthday!
I hope she likes that new MSD that I'm getting her!

[fat rat]

Is that $28k US or Can?

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by superdave013:
I hope she likes that new MSD that I'm getting her!
Dave, that's good...
Hey kanedog,
Have you made a decision on the motor yet? Since these guys are having their own meeting, I'll take a shot at your questions.
Keep in mind, I don't have a blower motor, or a tunnel (never stopped me before), so consider the source.
The number one thing you need to consider is what you use the boat for. How fast do you want to go? The higher you go, usually, you will need to take from other areas (dockability, etc.).
That motor has all top shelf gear. However, IMHO, it is made to make peak HP above 6,000 RPMs. To do that, I don't think it will idle below 1,200 RPMs, which makes 5 MPH zones and docking a little more challenging. How much time will you spend idling and docking?
To answer some of your questions:
Set up correctly, will this be a reliable motor?
Reliable, as in low maintenance? IMHO, this is not a low maintenance engine.
Is this a good price?
There are others that can answer this better than I. Make some calls. If you are looking for 800HP, call around for the 800HP packages.
Will this combination work?
Ask blowndragboat. You can e-mail him if you like.
What maintenance should regularly be performed?
Once again, blowndragboat can help. Valve adjustments jump out at me.
We are thinking IMCO extreme drive? We spent too much to go #6 drive. What do you recommend?
I'm not an expert, but the IMCO and Teague drives are questionable in that HP range. Some work forever, and some break. The lighter boats seem to do better. Try a search on the OSO board- those guys seem to debate this every week.
IMHO, that solid roller cam, 14-71 blower, and 2600CFM in carbs is overkill for a 800HP engine. I don't know if he can make changes, but these are two areas I would look at.
Like I said, those are all great components, and these guys (except superdave013) have given good advice. However, was that motor built for how you will be boating?
There's my 4 cents.
http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy25.gif

[superdave013]

Havasu Hangin', You pickin on me again??

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by superdave013:
Havasu Hangin', You pickin on me again??
I would never pick on you...as far as you know. http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy06.gif
http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy25.gif

[kanedog]

Here are some answers:Crank is double keyed.
The cam duration is .262 intake, .272 exhaust..714 lift.
The price is 28kus,$45,000can.
Havasu Hangin'-I haven't made a decision yet.
The motor was built for someone else but he ran out of money.(he owed too much)
I have talked to a few racing friends and they say a solid roller cam will make more power than a hydraulic. THe drawback being valve adjustment(builder says every 50hrs it should be adjusted).
Thank you for being honest and up front about yourself at the beginning of your reply.That says a lot about you.(good things, that is, in case you may have taken that wrong)
Again, the knowledge and advice on this board is unbelievable!

[kanedog]

Havasu Hangin':I will be spending average time docking and idling. I'd like to have the engine be as helpful as possible to dock though, because I'm not very good at it.(Wife & I will be practising a lot alone before anybody sees us perform on stage at the launch ramp)
The motor was not built for us and the way we boat. In regards to this motor, I thought it might be better to run a 1100hp motor at 800hp than to run a 800hp motor at 800hp for the times that I actuallly would run that much power.What do you think?
Also,How much time does the average performnce lake boater spend at 100mph anyway?

[Havasu Hangin']

Originally posted by kanedog:
...In regards to this motor, I thought it might be better to run a 1100hp motor at 800hp than to run a 800hp motor at 800hp for the times that I actuallly would run that much power.What do you think?
Well, kanedog, thanks for the kind words. Once again, consider the source, but...
Solid Roller Cams make more HP because they can have steeper ramps (open and close the valves quicker and higher) than other cams. Also, the rev higher without the valves floating- that's why "full race" motors use them. However, that is a large cam. A cam that large will pull more HP, but higher up in the RPM range. IMHO, that motor was made to pull big on the top end. However, as I stated earlier, you will sacrafice idle quality.
In my friends boat, (8-71 blower, big cam), it was not fun surging around the docks. You might want to ask the builder about idle quality.
Your right on the Hydraulic roller not being as "high HP" as a solid roller. However, if you only need 800HP, and can get it at say 5,500 RPMs, why not go hydraulic roller? Hydraulic roller is a compromise-, steeper ramps than a flat tappet, but not as high maintenance as a solid roller.
You're right that you can make a 1,100HP engine into a 800HP engine by changing the pulleys. However, why not design a 800HP package that idles better? Also, IMHO you will be leaving money on the table by having "overkill" parts like that 14-71 blower. The only drawback on a 800HP designed motor is that you can't change the pulley back to step up to the 1,100HP level if you get the urge.
Have you asked the builder about tuning down the motor? He might trade out the 14-71 for an 8-71, smaller carbs, hydraulic cam, etc. for less money.
For comparison, you can check out Teague's website, and the packages (and prices) he offers. Also, Paul Phaff has a website with motor specs. There are others out there, but this will give you a starting point for price.
MrHavasucat on this board is running a DCB 26' Mach with big (1,000HP+?) Blosdale power. He has a Teague drive. He may be a good guy to talk to about docking that bad boy with a big-breathing motor. If you perform a search, maybe his e-mail is in his profile. He is very helpful.
Maybe I'm getting old, but docking, idle, and maintenance seem to becoming more important to me these days.
http://www.goldenplasma.f2s.com/forum/smilies/happy25.gif

[boatnam2]

i think a 1471 is ok.the bigger the blower the better,no matter what hp you want.the only reason i got 871 compared to a 1471 was price,mert at littlefeild blowers told running a 1471 turned down creates way less heat which is the killer on a blower motor.i pretty sure the teauge 1000 hp is around 40g.guy had one the other day at lavey with the boat on a hose sounded bad ass switched the exhaust thru silencer and could barely hear the motor running i was blown away.