LHC Addresses CO in the Channel

[Havasuvian]

I may regret this, but here goes --
If you plan to spend time in the Bridgewater Channel this summer, you may notice a couple of changes. If you launch your boat from any of three ramps: Windsor, Site Six or the Marina, you may be handed a brochure containing information about the hazards of carbon monoxide poisoning while boating.
You may also notice a number of signs have gone up with the CO hazard warning.
On those signs and in the brochure you will also see that the city now has an ordinance that prohibits allowing your boat to idle for more than one minute while it is beached anywhere in the Channel. The brochure also describes the city's new Air Quality Advisory System that uses a large, two-sided sign placed in the south Channel.
A large arrow on the sign will indicate the current air quality conditions based on hourly carbon monoxide averages measured by city Fire Department personnel. Another new ordinance provides the Police Chief with the discretionary authority to take whatever actions he deems necessary to protect the people from CO conditions that are escalating into the hazardous range. Those actions will most likely include traffic control measures such as limiting or stopping boat entry to the Channel, prohibiting cruising, or closing the Channel to all but commercial traffic until air quality conditions improve.
These actions are in response to a comprehensive study that was conducted in the Channel last summer that indicated unhealthy and sometimes hazardous CO levels were caused by the large number of running boats. The worst conditions were present on each of the three holiday weekends, typically Friday and Saturday between 5 and 9 p.m. One drowning and a number of rescues showed CO to be a contributing factor in those incidents. A number of other local incidents are now believed to be CO related as well.
The city is serious about addressing this problem and our city council has designated the Channel as a "Zero Tolerance Zone." As some of you may have already learned, that designation generally means if you break the law, you will go to jail. Our officers will not cite and release or give warning after warning for things like exposing yourself, underage drinking, allowing your boat to idle while beached, etc., etc. These are criminal offenses that will land you in jail until you talk to the judge. May sound harsh, but that's how the community wants it, so that's how it is.
Another CO-related death occurred just this past weekend on a lake in the Phoenix area. Apparently a 28-year old man was "teak surfing" and drowned from exposure to the boat's exhaust.
I don't want to come across as a buzzkill with this message, just want everyone to be aware of the danger, have a good time and get home safe.
Thanks for your consideration.
Charlie Cassens

[Boatcop]

A third death also occurred on Bartlett Lake, near Phoenix this past weekend. An 18 year old high school senior went under water and was deceased when recovered a short time later.
He was at the lake with friends during a non school sponsored Senior "Ditch Day" event. Friends said he was last seen hanging onto the swimstep of a ski-boat. The autopsy results will indicate if CO was a factor, but from the statements of witnesses, is doesn't take a boat accident investigator to put 2 and 2 together.
This was 2 days before his Senior Prom and 1 week from graduation.
Please take CO and the warnings seriously. We have always known that there was some danger associated with boats and CO, but never dreamed as to the extent the danger really is.
We wonder how many deaths that were written off as simple drownings over the last 30 years could actually have been attributed to carbon monoxide.

[77charger]

i have heard that people sitting on the very back of a boat (engine hatch,swimstep area)while boat is idling can be exposed to CO

[Havasuvian]

Most boats, particularly those tuned for top end, will emit the highest CO levels while at idle and sub-plane speeds. The transom and the rear seats of a boat can be a deadly place to be, especially if there is no wind or a slight tailwind. This "station wagon" effect can make even the regular passenger area of the boat a dangerous place.
There's one report of an accident involving a cabin cruiser that went aground after the pilot and his three passengers were overcome by CO that entered the passenger area by backdraft over the transom. The three passengers woke up a few hours later, but the driver was dead. Bad stuff, this carbon monoxide.
Lake Havasu City government is taking steps we believe to be reasonable to educate and inform boaters about the dangers of CO. We hope the monitoring and warning system we are instituting in the Channel will help raise awareness and prevent some acute poisonings from CO mixed with the ambient air. Unfortunately, all this effort may not prevent another drowning as long as people insist on hanging out near operating exhaust pipes.
A few simple points to remember:
-- The average boat emits as much CO as 188 cars
-- Just one operating boat can kill
-- If the air in the Channel looks bad...it probably is
Charlie

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure some idiots on here will flame you as if you were the one making the policy decision.
The only comment I ahve is I don't know how much validity I put into one boat emitting as much CO as 188 cars, seems very high to me, but if the research proves it out and it's sound research, who am I to argue with it. Again, thanks for the heads up.

[Liquid Courage]

I don't really think this is a buzzkill. If you've ever sat in the channel on a holiday weekend or any large crowd weekend you'd be thankfull they are going to do something about the "Smog" that builds up in the channel. You know the CO levels are high when you can barely see across the channel! The only problem I see with this whole article is the no tolerance for exposing yourself!:p :D That part sucks!

[Moe_Havi]

Isn't the old boating rule that when anyone is in the water, particularly in the back of the boat that you shut it off. Even if you don't get CO poison you could lose a limb. Shut the thing off for christs sake

[Laveyman]

Havasuvian,
Do you work for the City? If so, welcome aboard. It's nice to have someone here as a representative fo our favoite hangout.
As far as a teak surfer dying...I can sum that up in two words...Darwin's Theory!!! We're just removing another fool from the gene pool. The only trajedy is for the family and frineds of the deceased moron.

[moonridge]

i hate how there are these stupid people that have to go out and ruin it for others. I saw this special about a month ago on kcal9 news here in so cal and it was about this. There was this family on there because their daughter died from teak surfing. How stupid do you have to be do to that. Would you put your face right down by ur car's exhaust pipe?? These individuals that do this teak surfing are so stupid!!!

[Havasuvian]

Yes, I am the city's Public Information Officer and report to the City Manager. Thanks for the welcome and while I am unable to monitor and respond to these threads on an ongoing basis, I do check in from time to time to see what topics are hot and will participate if I have something of value to contribute.
Anyone on this board is welcome to PM me at any time if you have issues, questions or suggestions relating to how or why things are done the way they are here in LHC. Even though the majority of you do not reside here, I still consider those of you who recreate here a customer and an open line of communication is good.
H-D, I was also skeptical of the 188 car statement until I had a chance to see the data and the formulas that were used by the city's consultant to come up with that comparison. The bottom line is computerized induction systems and catalytic converters do a good job of lowering the CO emissions from cars, but are not practical for boats, at least not using current technologies. Boats will no doubt become more efficient as new laws and models are introduced, but it will take many years to replace those boats that are on the water today that have no emission controls whatsoever.
I will admit that the emissions data that was used to come up with the 188 car statement was several years old, but it was the only acceptable data available and I figured even if the correct answer is off by half, that's still a lot of CO.
Charlie

[91nordic29]

Originally posted by Moe_Havi
Isn't the old boating rule that when anyone is in the water, particularly in the back of the boat that you shut it off. Even if you don't get CO poison you could lose a limb. Shut the thing off for christs sake
this is what i always think about. what parent lets thier kid ride behind the boat like that?

[Quality Time]

Havasuvian,
Are you aware of the issues with the Marina:eek:

[91nordic29]

Originally posted by Quality Time
Havasuvian,
Are you aware of the issues with the Marina:eek:
that is exactly what i wanted to ask.:cool:

[Havasuvian]

PWC's take a lot of flak for the CO problem, but the fact is the air pollution created by inefficient two-strokes is oil smoke, not CO. It is air pollution, yes, but it is not nearly as hazardous to your health as CO, which is colorless, odorless, and tasteless.
Carbon monoxide is a product of the burning of carbon-based (fossil) fuels. The more fuel burned, the more CO produced. Obviously, a twin big block cat will produce a lot more CO than a jetski, but many people see the smoke and think the jetski is the problem.
CO is the same weight as the air around it (it doesn't sink or rise), so if you see an oil smoke haze, you can believe there is CO in there with it, especially if there are big-displacement boats operating in the area.
Huff -- I am not on the city council. The mayor and six council members are elected officials. I am a city staffer in the city manager's office. The city manager reports to the elected officials, and I report to the city manager.
Q-T -- Yes.
Charlie

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Charlie,
Any insight you can provide to us, unofficial of course, about the city's take on the marina issues?

[91nordic29]

it may not be prudent for him to discuss this with us.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I figured as much which is why I asked unofficially. I respect the fact that he may not be able to say anything.

[Scream]

Originally posted by 91nordic29
this is what i always think about. what parent lets thier kid ride behind the boat like that?
The dumb ones. Saw a kid, about 11 or 12, ridding on the engine cover facing backwards at Elsinore last weekend. The dad's just tooling in the no wake zone...I'd never do that to my kid.
Here's a question for Havasuvian and Boat Cop. Why isn't Teak Surfing taboo? seems that most of these CO deaths could have been overted with this prohibition.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Originally posted by HUFFPOWER
If memory serves me correct the mayor of havasu is the former owner of campbell boats
Unless something has changed in the last few months Whelan still owns Campbell Boats.

[Havasuvian]

It would'nt be appropriate for me to respond to marina issues in an offical capacity, mainly because it is not a city matter. The Marina is a private enterprize and they are free to operate their facility pretty much how they see fit, as long as it's within the law. The city can no sooner tell the marina operators how to conduct business than tell the Baskin Robbins what flavors to carry. That's just not what the free enterprize system is about.
As a private citizen, Lake Havasu City resident, avid boater and someone who considers Jeff Bekkedahl a friend, I'll say that I believe many people (some of them downright hostile) have formulated opinions without having all the facts. The marina has just made over $2 million in improvements, and the owner and management intend to protect that investment very simply by maintaining order. They also have a responsibility to protect their employees from the excessive (often extreme) noise, carbon monoxide and the abuse that accompanies some of their "weekend" patrons.
Teak surfing is not illegal - yet. I don't know how many will have to die before it is, but I would hope people would wise up enough to make a law unnecessary. Maybe that's too idealistic.
Thanks for the discussion. I'll check back on Monday.
Charlie

[Havasu Luvr]

Originally posted by Havasuvian
As a private citizen, Lake Havasu City resident, avid boater and someone who considers Jeff Bekkedahl a friend, I'll say that I believe many people (some of them downright hostile) have formulated opinions without having all the facts.
You guys were feeling a salvation coming until Charlie wrote that
WOW ! ! That pretty much KILLED this thread:D I didn't think there would much of a response to this:cool:
I still say the Marina is the best facility in LHC and to date I have not had any real problems yet (Knock on wood).

[WaTchTheGelCoat]

What is teak surfing? :confused:

[shueman]

MAN............!!!
Best thread, by far....KUDOS TO ALL....!!
We should all be pro-active when it comes to boating safety. If you see someone/something dangerous or out-of-line, take the initiative and try to inform the people of the dangers they are creating for themselves and/or others.

[Boatcop]

Teak surfing is not illegal - yet. I don't know how many will have to die before it is, but I would hope people would wise up enough to make a law unnecessary. Maybe that's too idealistic.
Wrong answer.
Although not specifically mentioned in the statute, Careless, Reckless, Negligent Operation of a watercraft would apply in this case.
As it applies to vessels, the Coast Guard and the courts define this as
"Any operation of a watercraft that has the potential to cause death or injury to persons or damage to property"
The death, injury, or damage doesn't actually have to happen, just that it can. It is up to us, as Boating Enforcement Officers to articulate in court how a particular aspect of vessel operation can cause that death injury or damage.
Using examples of accidents and other negative results of the operation is how we can prove that it is, in fact, dangerous.
In the case of Teak Surfing there would be zero argument against the danger in that activity.
If (and when) I see someone allowing another person to do this behind their boat, they will be arrested on the spot and charged, not only with Reckless Operation, but with Felony Endangerment, and (if the person dragging is under 18), Child Abuse, and any other thing I can think of.
If a person dies as a result of this, I would also charge manslaughter, at a minimum. Boats made since 2000 have warning stickers posted about this kind of activity. If the owner/operator chooses to ignore that warning and allow someone to do it anyway, and they die as a result of it, they can be looking at spending at least 8-10 years with a cellmate named Bubba.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Originally posted by Havasuvian
As a private citizen, Lake Havasu City resident, avid boater and someone who considers Jeff Bekkedahl a friend, I'll say that I believe many people (some of them downright hostile) have formulated opinions without having all the facts. The marina has just made over $2 million in improvements, and the owner and management intend to protect that investment very simply by maintaining order. They also have a responsibility to protect their employees from the excessive (often extreme) noise, carbon monoxide and the abuse that accompanies some of their "weekend" patrons.
Thanks for the discussion. I'll check back on Monday.
Charlie
Charlie, I don't think you'll get much of an arguement from anyone here about the above. We continue to launch at the marina and we have not had any real problems. I feel that it is teh best facility to launch at as well.
The concern that people bring up is the way they choose to implement their "...responsibility to protect their employees from the excessive (often extreme) noise, carbon monoxide and the abuse that accompanies some of their "weekend" patrons. " So far, the cornerstone of all of the stories about the problems at the marina has been that the rules are enforced in an unequittible manner, that is, completly random. You are correct, it is a private enterprise, if they choose to not allow any boat over 30 feet, that is their choice to make. But it needs to be EVERY boat over 30 feet. They can't let one guy launch because he is a friend of the owner, that's where the problem arises.
BTW, what improvements have they made that cost $2MM? Just curious, but I would think for that kind of dough they could have paved the entire parking lot. Then again, I don't work in the asphalt industry so I really have no idea what that would cost.

[Havasuvian]

Thanks for the interpretation, Boatcop, I stand corrected. I guess the best way to protect yourself from getting popped by the LEO's is to ask yourself: "Could what I am about to do be interpreted by police as careless, reckless or negligent operation of a watercraft?"
GelCoat -- "Teak surfing" is basically being dragged behind a speeding boat while hanging on to the swim step. Obviously a bad idea for two deadly reasons: 1- Carbon monoxide, and 2- spinning prop. Unfortunately, many victims of this activity were kids and teens whose parents not only allowed them to do it, but also allowed them to do it without a lifejacket, making recovering the body a difficult task.
HD -- I can see both sides of the marina issue. But again, the marina is a private enterprise and they can operate it however they see fit as long as it is within the law. Regarding the improvements, I do not speak for the marina but I know they have done some serious dredging to the west and added many new slips, parking lot, curbs and other infrastructure to support the expansion, including rest rooms, I believe. Judging by the large stockpile of asphalt at the edge of the dirt lot, I assume they are planning to do some more paving as well. I am sure there are many other improvements that I am not aware of, but you can call them at 1-800-734-7142 and I'm sure they would be happy to tell you about it.
Charlie

[Quality Time]

PIO = Spin Doctor

[Havasuvian]

Or you may wish to consider me a friend and fellow boating enthusiast who happens to work at city hall. ;)
Charlie

[Laveyman]

Originally posted by Havasuvian
Or you may wish to consider me a friend and fellow boating enthusiast who happens to work at city hall. ;)
Charlie
It is always good to have someone's ear inside the City. Even though you may not be able to fix a problem, you may be able to send someone in the right direction or plant a bug in the proper person/department's ear. Thanks for sticking around with us.

[KrazyKa]

Originally posted by Havasuvian
The Marina is a private enterprize and they are free to operate their facility pretty much how they see fit, as long as it's within the law. The city can no sooner tell the marina operators how to conduct business than tell the Baskin Robbins what flavors to carry. That's just not what the free enterprize system is about.
It's my understanding that the marina currently leases the land from the city. That considerably tosses up the Baskin Robbin's analogy, no?

[cc322]

People may want to consider portable gas detectors, we use them everyday at work and they test for lel=lower explosive limit, co=carbon monoxide, o2= oxygen , and h2s=hydrogen sulfide. A quick explanition on carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide (CO) is slightly lighter than air and is generally found near the top of structures. It is colorless, odorless, tasteless, flammable, and poisonous. It has an LEL of 12.5 and a UEL of 74. Carbon monoxide is a product of combustion; therefore, adequate ventilation is necessary when using engine-driven equipment. This gas acts as an asphyxiant. The maximum amount that can be tolerated for a 60 – minute period is 0.04% in the air. Carbon monoxide in concentrations in 0.2% to 0.25% would cause a person to become unconscious in 30 minutes. It is fatal in a concentration in a 0.1% for a 4-hour period and is immediately dangerous to life and health (IDLH) at 1,500 PPM. Carbon Monoxide will cause headaches at a concentration at 0.02% in a 2-hour period or less.

[Havasuvian]

It's my understanding that the marina currently leases the land from the city. That considerably tosses up the Baskin Robbin's analogy, no?
No.
The marina is on land leased from the Arizona State Land Department.
Charlie

[Quality Time]

Okay, if the "City" does not want to (or can't) address the Marina issue, what about the local Chamber of Commerce? Is the Marina a member? Is the Chamber aware of the issues, ethical business practices (or lack there of) and subsequent potential loss of revenue surrounding this issue?
For the record, I have never had an issue with launching there, but I have boycotted the marina in support of others who have. I recently took delivery of a larger boat and know I will not be able to launch there, which I think is rediculous considering the facility was designed to accomodate most trailered boats.

[KrazyKa]

Originally posted by Havasuvian
No.
The marina is on land leased from the Arizona State Land Department.
Charlie
Thank you for the clarification Charlie. With that in mind, it still seems to skew the Baskin Robbin's analogy.
Originally posted by Quality Time
Okay, if the "City" does not want to (or can't) address the Marina issue, what about the local Chamber of Commerce? Is the Marina a member? Is the Chamber aware of the issues, ethical business practices (or lack there of) and subsequent potential loss of revenue surrounding this issue?
In most cases those boycotting the marina are still utilizing the lake and all the other resources they normally would in town. In this regard the city isn't losing any revenue at all. Since the marina is leasing the land from the state, the real avenue to persue is with AZ State and the prejudicial enforcement of policy on the lease they have allowed.

[Havasuvian]

Did someone tell you that you couldn't?
Charlie

[Moe_Havi]

Originally posted by WaTchTheGelCoat
What is teak surfing? :confused:
Being dragged while holding on to a teak swim step, typically on a wakeboard boat or tournament boat. Nice big dual exausts in your face. The CO enhances the alcohol high.
Moe

[uncle larry]

To get a new marina in or around lake havasu city... mmmm would take a lot of paper work.. as the land is controlled by the state via one or two or three different agencies....
sometimes the state sells land i.e. body beach, islander rv resort and others.... other times you get a long long term and fairly expensive lease from the state....
most of the open shore in or around lake havasu city already has been designated or leased or purchased by someone already.. a lot of the shore is protected and can't be build on...
so if you want a new marina in or near lake havasu city.. it would take hundreds of thousands of dollars and time and someone who was willing to work thru the red tape...
Impossible to do -- absolutely not........
Probable? Only to someone who has the ability to wait a long long long time to have a positive ROI....
If you have the $$$$$ -- some do have the time...
Smile & Enjoy

[Havasuvian]

I did some checking and found a very old lease contract between the marina and the BLM (BLM traded the property to the AZ State Land Dept. years ago), which gave the marina some exclusive rights to be the only marina on the Island until such time as they built 700 slips or otherwise built out the property. I believe the marina has surpassed the 700 slip provision and it would probably take a judge to determine if they still have the right to have the only marina on the Island. There may be a later contract with updated or different provisions or limitations.
There have been many attempts and several near successes at building a new marina on the mainland, but Larry is right, it would take much money and perserverance to satisfy all the environmental and jurisdictional requirements and restrictions that would be placed on the developer.
The Colorado River is a federal waterway and Lake Havasu is a fresh water storage reservoir for 25 million people. There would certainly be a lot of people lined up to provide input on your project.
But as Larry said, it's not impossible.
Charlie

[KrazyKa]

Thanks for the added info Charlie. Site Six would seem to fly in the face of the exclusive rights clause. There's no competition like "free" competition. :)