Innercooler...Comparison

[GN747]

Has anyone ever compared a Lee innercooler to a superchiller?

[Inquirer]

THANKS GUYS FOR NOTHING...
I GUESS NOT TO MANY PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT INTERCOOLERS, I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO
CALL PAUL PFAFF...

[Snowboat]

Pissy won't always get it. Type in intercoolers under search and click topics for the last year. Ultimately you'll find Whipplecharger's comments. That's probably why no one answered, because its been thoroughly discussed before.

[lakesmodified]

Originally posted by Inquirer:
THANKS GUYS FOR NOTHING...
I GUESS NOT TO MANY PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT INTERCOOLERS, I GUESS I'LL HAVE TO
CALL PAUL PFAFF...
I hate to say it, but after the experience I've just had with a Paul Pfaff built engine, I wouldn't pay him a F**KING cent for his work!! I bought a 1982 Targa jet boat with a Paul Pfaff built, BDS blown 460 Ford. The engine has a total of 135 hours, and I disassembled it because of water intrussion into the oil. What I found after disassembly was: Worn out cam bearings, scored main journals, loose connecting rod bolts(shank looseness) the list goes on. I know it was built by Paul Pfaff because of the receipts and secondly, the "Paul Pfaff" name eched onto the crankshaft forward-most counter-weight. The gentleman I bought this boat from is 63 years old, and felt so bad for all the damage I've found, that he reimbursed me $1000.00 to help defray the costs of rebuilding. Maybe Paul Pfaff builds quality engines, but this one might have been the one that got away??? I've seen better work from "part house" engine rebuilders.... Ivan

[Blown509Liberator]

lakesmodified
here you on that... I had a motor built by B&B performance(http://www.snowcrest.net/bb8596/index.html) in Redding Ca.
If you look on the spec sheet I have attached it clearly states Cola Crankshaft and JE pistons where installed. After opening it up what did I find? Scat crank and SRP pistons. It is a little disturbing a company can be this dishonest
http://nothinbutjets.homestead.com/files/BBspecsheet.jpg
MikeW
[This message has been edited by Blown509Liberator (edited June 10, 2002).]

[lakesmodified]

Liberator; I would be completely pissed in your shoes... Not that I too was upset upon the disassembly of my engine, but then again, I wasn't the one that originally paid Pfaff for the engine. Of course, I did "indirectly" pay for his lousy work when I purchased the boat, thinking that the engine should last quite a few years before having to be freshened up. Fortunately though, mine did have the J&E blower pistons, but then again, that's because the gentleman I bought the boat from, purchased them directly from J&E, and then handed the parts to Pfaff racing. I guess that's the way to go in the future: Buy all the parts yourself, and then have them build it... But, then, why even bother with these builders? I can assemble an engine with the best of them, and I have something they don't have; "A vested interest" in the longetivity of the powerplant. Sorry to hear about your mishap. Ivan

[Whipple Charged]

The Lee has a larger core and more square area than the Superchiller and will cool the air more depending on which boost level. The higher you go, the further the temps are different. The Lee is more expensive, it also has smaller passages which can lead to clogging more frequently, the Superchiller is pretty open and is supported a bit better so it's core is more robust. The Lee can sometimes crack because of all the water setting in it with the engine vibration and constant pressure against it.
We have our intercooler and have replacement cores for the Lee that have larger passages, are made of Cupronickel/copper which is far superior to aluminum cores and will never corrode. It is also a much more heavy duty construction for the constant abuse the marine enviornment places on the units.
Thanks,
Dustin

[Inquirer]

Thanks for the info Dustin,
Were going to try the superchiller first, because its already on the engine, then the Lee....
This weekend I think, pretty sure..
hopefully the superchiller will work well.
and cool enough, and not to much manifold pressure.
Have you ever heard of the superchiller not
good enough for engines that have over say
1100 horses?

[Whipple Charged]

It really depends on the engine, but it needs tremendous amounts of water to bring the temp down near the Lee or ours. I would look at running dual 12 in or even dual 16 in and the same out.
Thanks,
Dustin

[Blown Sleek]

Anyone know of a inercooler for sale cheep? Used? bbc 8-71
[This message has been edited by Blown Sleek (edited June 18, 2002).]

[ironhead]

Lakesmodified,
I'm a Pfaff employee. We take great pride in our work there. Could you please fax or e-mail me the receipts you have so I could reveiw them? In the past six years that I have been there, I can't recall us building a blown 460. I would be very interested to see exactly what we did and when we did it.
fax (714)894-7461
e-mail pfaffracing@earthlink.net

[lakesmodified]

Originally posted by ironhead:
Lakesmodified,
I'm a Pfaff employee. We take great pride in our work there. Could you please fax or e-mail me the receipts you have so I could reveiw them? In the past six years that I have been there, I can't recall us building a blown 460. I would be very interested to see exactly what we did and when we did it.
fax (714)894-7461
e-mail pfaffracing@earthlink.net
Ironhead, I'm not looking by any means for any work to be performed or any refunds. I didn't have any of this work done, nor did I pay for any of it. I did, however, purchase the boat with the assurance that a reputable engine builder had assembled this engine with the upmost professionalism and talent.
To answer some of your questions, the engine was built way back in in early 1985 (yes, I realize you're probably now saying, "How long do I expect an engine to last") Well, though this engine was built back in 1985, it has a total of 121 hours on the clock. The gentlman I bought it from, Tom Berdner,
(berdner@usctrojans.com)(209-536-6122)himself was very disapointed with all the problems I've encountered. I would like to add, that he is now 62 years old, and from talking to him, very knowledgeable about supercharging etc. I'm sure if you would like to talk to him, he would be very infomative as to dates, costs, etc. This engine was assembled way before you came to work at Paul Pfaff, the reason you have no knowledge of it. As far as faxing you the receipts, I'll have to search through all the stuff Tom gave me with the boat and see if I still have it. I bought it back during Christmas of 2001, picked it up in February 2002(I now live in Memphis, while Tom lives in Sonora) I just received all my parts back from the local machine shop and will start to reassemble the 460 today. If you would really like to get the "whole" scoop on the rebuild, Tom would be the man to call. But you're welcome to call me also, 901-759-9964
Ivan
By the way, this is one of the original ads of Tom selling his boat:http://www.h20performance.com/Details.asp?ID=191

[kanedog]

Lakesmodified-
I,m sure that you have directly contacted Paul pfaff and talked to him directly about this particular motor that was built some 17 years ago.This would be the normal course of action one would take before slamming a company on a discussion board.
I also noticed that you knew it was a Pfaff motor because you had the receipt. When asked for this receipt by a Pfaff employee,you all of the sudden couldn't produce it"it was somewhere in your paperwork."
Furthermore,just because someone is 63yrs old, does that mean that they can't operate a boat without oil? Or can they not overheat a boat by accident? Or maybe they are so old and frail, that they can't put the hammer down for extended and ridiculous amounts of time? Or maybe they are so old, that they have alzheimers and forgot how to disconnect the hour meter? I bet you know this guy so well that he wouldn't rip you off right?
The question is though, do you think this nice 63yr old man got the boat to take his wife out on Sundays, after church and eat crumpets and drink tea on the lake?
It's a blower motor man. It's meant to go fast and perform. It has done its job when it was supposed to, and you got ripped off by this nice 63yr old man. Why do you think he gave you $1000 bucks back? Maybe he knew the engine didn't sound just right and wanted to dump it to some schmuk who lives far. Maybe he didn't count on you being as smart as you are about engines and phoning him to tell him that he sold a piece of crap and that you aren't happy. Nah, he just felt bad and decided to hand you over a g note!
Think twice before you slam on an open discussion board. Have all your questions answered before slamming, and most of all don't slam on someone else because you got ripped off. I didn't see where you directly dealt with Pfaff and until you have a legitimate beef with him-get lost-
[This message has been edited by kanedog (edited July 03, 2002).]

[fat rat]

Originally posted by Blown Sleek:
Anyone know of a inercooler for sale cheep? Used? bbc 8-71
[This message has been edited by Blown Sleek (edited June 18, 2002).]
I'm thinking the same for next year.....did you get any response's.............on the cheep?

[lakesmodified]

Kanedog, or should I just call you ASSHOLE? First off, you have no idea who I, or this guy I bought the boat from is. Secondly, I'm normally a pretty good judge of character(the reason I now know you're an asshole)Tom, the original owner of this boat and I spoke over a period of 2 months while we agreed on a set price. During this time, he offered to take me out on the boat(I work for an airline, and can fly for free) Unfortuntely, I was too busy to take the time(my fault)and fly out to drive the boat first hand. As far as having the receipts and producing them for a Pfaff employee to see, I was given 4 huge boxes, that are now in my attic, with all the paperwork from the day he originally bought the boat new until the day he sold it to me. In the mirage of all these papers, is that receipt, which I did see the day I picked the boat up. Where is it now? Somewhere between over 1000 or so pages of documents, that like I said before, are in my attic. Why didn't I go searching for it? What the **** for? I'm not looking to get any money or repairs, never intended to! So why waste my time, to satisfy you or any other person? As far as Tom disconnecting or changing the hour meter, I guess you don't know enough of mechanical work, to be able to disassemble an engine, and by inspecting the wear (or lack off, in this case) on the face of the rings, cylinder walls, piston skirts, etc you would be able to tell if an engine has seen hard use, or been totally worn out. My bitch was the mains on the crank and the worn out cam bearings. Could it have been caused by hard useage? I don't think the wear patterns I've found, support that premise. According to my experience, and that of the machine shop I used, the cam bearings were probably worn out because of incorrect cam installation(ie. hitting the bearings with the lobes while installing the cam) or bearings not installed square with the bore. The mains were a classic example of dirt or other foreign material present at the time of assembly. But I guess if you've never built any engines before, you wouldn't know this... Quite frankly, I don't pay anyone, to build an engine for me.. Why, just because of this very incident. Funny thing, I guess this bulletin board doesn't have ANY stories about "reputable" engine builders that have built CRAP engines before, right? Everyone is human, and unless if you have no idea what you're doing(LIKE YOU)the owner of a particular engine, will take more care during the assembly, than ANY employee of ANY company, that's waiting for 5:00PM to come along, to get the hell out and drink a beer.. I stand by my earlier assesment; Paul Pfaff engines SUCK, and so do you! Asshole. Ivan

[ironhead]

Geez Ivan...
You get all upset that someone questions you or the previous owner,"because he didn't know either of you". Yet, you have no problem assuming that us Pfaff employees are waiting for five so we can go drink beer. Don't be a jerk.
You said before you took your engine apart because of water in the oil. Having water in the oil will wear your bearings out very quickly. Did the previous owner have water in the oil where he drove it?, or did it appear after sitting for along time?

[lakesmodified]

Originally posted by ironhead:
Geez Ivan...
You get all upset that someone questions you or the previous owner,"because he didn't know either of you". Yet, you have no problem assuming that us Pfaff employees are waiting for five so we can go drink beer. Don't be a jerk.
You said before you took your engine apart because of water in the oil. Having water in the oil will wear your bearings out very quickly. Did the previous owner have water in the oil where he drove it?, or did it appear after sitting for along time?
Ironhead, let me ask you a question: Can you unequivocally tell me that you would put the same amount of care building an engine at work, than one at home for yourself? If so, I congratulate you for being one in a million! You have never been in a hurry at work to get a job done before the end of the day? Again, one in a million. You asked for a receipt of the work done, yes, I can produce that receipt, but not without a considerable amount of time searching through my attic, and for what? This is the reason I gave you Tom's(the original owners name, email address and phone number if need be) After all, he was the customer, and he could tell you a lot more about this particular engine, than I ever could(that is if you really wanted to get to the bottom of it)I never asked for any work or refunds, I was simply stating what I found. As far as the water intrussion, that was after getting the boat home and running it off the garden hose. And yes, the boat had been sitting for quite some while. Yes, I'm aware water can cause severe bearing wear, but the wear I found was more consistant with foreign material being present at the time of assembly(deep scratches in a couple of the mains) and the cam bearings had signs of miss-alignment. Just for your information, I spoke with Tom the other day, and he informed me, that it was Paul's son that assembled this particular engine. Again, if you would like to talk to Tom himself, feel free to email me, and I'll email you his phone number. I'm sure he would be more than willing to talk to you. I never meant any ill-will towards you, hell, I don't even know you. I do though stand by my original conviction of a Paul Pfaff engine.. Sorry if that upsets you, but I have one sitting in my garage getting ready to come back together, and it should have never had the damage I found; Not after 120 or so hours of operation. As far as Kanedog goes, he comes into a topic midstream, and want's to call me a schmuck? Quite frankly, after looking at his background info; he's a Canadian(that says it all) and he works in construction... I'm sure this idiot has never cut corners while building whatever it is he builds! Oh yes, he has never bought inferior material in order to pad his wallet!!! Funny thing is, I never ASKED for anything!!! By the way, does Pfaff racing still etch their name in the front throw of the crankshaft? Or maybe I did that myself to prove a point?Hope you have a safe 4th... Ivan
[This message has been edited by lakesmodified (edited July 04, 2002).]

[kanedog]

Hey Ivan-tell us what its like to be perfect in your world of assumptions,prejudices,name calling and not one bit of ability to carry on a debate without resorting to 8th grade actions.
Sorry you got ripped off,EH!

[lakesmodified]

Originally posted by kanedog:
Hey Ivan-tell us what its like to be perfect in your world of assumptions,prejudices,name calling and not one bit of ability to carry on a debate without resorting to 8th grade actions.
Sorry you got ripped off,EH!
Well, I heard a lot about you Canadians over the years, but never had the displeasure until now of dealing with one. I always listen with a grain of salt what others say about different nationalities, but this time; I must say, everyone was correct about your people, or at least some of you... Sure hope your personality is not indicative of the remainder of the Canadians! Enough said!
[This message has been edited by lakesmodified (edited July 05, 2002).]