I spun out!!!

[Commander460]

Hey guys; I'm a newbie
I just bought a 1987 commander thats 19'. It has a 460 and a berkley jet. I took it to the lake yesterday for the first time. All went OK except for the fact I spun it out. I put the hammer down and at around 50mph I let off the throttle. The damn thing pulled HARD left and spun out. It felt as though the steering cable let go. But I checked everything and all was good. So I went for round two, and I was able to control it better. It seems that if I hold the steering tight, I'm ok, even though its still a little squirley.
I've had a jet boat before and it didnt behave this way. Are there any Ideas.
The jet has a place diverter, and a aluminum rudder, or scagg, whatever you call it.
Please help...

[BrendellaJet]

That is not uncommon, although I think that 50mph is a little slow for it to happen-I may be wrong though. Basically what happens is one of two things, maybe a combination of the two:
Letting off the gas quickly/or the motor shutting down results in the boat nose diving. Depending on the hull design/water conditions, the first part of the boat to hit the water acts as a rudder steering the boat in whatever direction very violently. Many end up taking a swim when this happens-you got lucky.
Also a factor here is that upon quick deceleration/shutdown is that the pump is still packing water, but the impeller is not turning quickly enough to process all of it, the pump backs up and causes the transom to lift, dipping the nose of the boat further into the water.
You're lucky that all was okay. This will probably make you a better driver.

[Commander460]

Thanks for your reply. Your right, it was violent. The boat started going left hard, and my correction with the steering wheel didnt help it.
Even when I'm cruising at about 35-40mph the boat is acting squirley. I have to keep constant pressure on the steering wheel to keep the boat tracking straight.
What can I do to help fix this problem?????

[roostwear]

Do you remember what position your diverter was when it bow-steered? Does trimming it help ? Do you have a ride plate? Scary sh1t, but at least you didn't learn the REALLY hard way.

[Commander460]

My place diverter was all the way down, keeping the nose of the boat down. Should I not do that???
And if a ride plate is that two foot wide plate under the jet, then YES I have one.. What should I do???
It almost tossed my four year old daughter in the water had I not reached over and grabbed her. What a scarry thing to happen.!!
So this thing that happened is called BOW-STEER??

[roostwear]

Next time out, I would play with the diverter to find where it rides best at speed. Bring the nozzle up (to a point) and you'll feel the hull free up and lift. Bringing the bow up should help air out the hull. When you lift the throttle and the bow drops, it will try to go one way or the other. Every hull reacts differently, but if your bow is up, it should be easier to control.
Just my experience.
Now the fun begins.... getting to know your boat!

[BrendellaJet]

Originally posted by Commander460
My place diverter was all the way down, keeping the nose of the boat down. Should I not do that???
And if a ride plate is that two foot wide plate under the jet, then YES I have one.. What should I do???
It almost tossed my four year old daughter in the water had I not reached over and grabbed her. What a scarry thing to happen.!!
So this thing that happened is called BOW-STEER??
Yes, this is Bow Steer. Is the Plate 2 feet wide, or two feet long? Either way, it sounds too big. Most are not that long from what I have seen. Can you post pics?
I wouldnt try to run at speed with the diverter down, that will burry the nose and probably make things worse? If you have a lot of people on board and its having trouble planing, I would use the down portion, but at speed it should be level or up, or somewhere in between. The down will also help when pulling skiers, but once you are on plane get that thing above level. Id leave the little girl at home until you are comfortable with how the boat handles. Get familiar with it.
I would get it on plane at areound 30mph, and then let off, and see what it does. Then increase the speed a little. Try it until your boat starts getting squirelly(it was before because the diverter was down). It may not even do it once you get the diverter adjusted properly. Definitely play with it to see how the boat rides at different adjustments. This will help you understand how the boat reacts and it will help you to avoid getting wet or even worse-hurt.

[Commander460]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the info.
I'll try to post a picture. I have one that is jpg. format, how do I post it???

[BrendellaJet]

do a search on posting pics, this topic has been covered a zillion times...If you cant figure it out, email it to me and Ill throw it up for you.

[Commander460]

I'll research the topic, but in the meantime I'll just e-mail you the pick. The administrator disabled the e-mails, so whats your e-mail???

[spectras only]

Like somebody said it already ,don't turn fast with the diverter down. Check your intake if it's still has the fins. Some people cut the fins off at from the intake and with the diverter down the stern lifts your rudder out too far to be effective.Those fins help the boat from spinning. It's a lot of fun to run a jet boat hard without fins and rudder in narrow waterways, but not with family aboard;) .

[BrendellaJet]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat11-med.bmp
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat2-med.bmp
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat7-med.bmp
You have whats called an E pump. Its an insert type pump, differnt form the majority. Not the best for performance, but for a family cruiser it'll get the job done. Your ride plate looks okay, but it could use some adjustment. Id mess with the diverter settings first though and see how the boat reacts.

[Commander460]

OK, thanks
Also I have a fin/rudder that bolts onto the underside of the jetdrive. Should I run this, or leave it off???

[JayBee]

Is it just me, or does the steering linkage look like it would have a ton of flex and play in it? I have not looked at a lot of Place Diverter equipped pumps, but I always thought they had shorter, stronger steering linkage than the berk jetovator. Yours looks worse to me... If you have someone hold the steering wheel tight how much can you wiggle the steering nozzle from side to side?

[Jetdriver]

I was thinking the same thing the steering linkage looks to be a weak point!

[BrendellaJet]

I think the general consensus is that the turning fins do not work well. Id ditch it.

[Commander460]

I'll have my wife hold the steering and see if I can move the jet side to side. I thought it looked funky too. Does anyone have a picture of what it should look like???
And should I run a smaller fin, or not run one at all??
You guys have been a HUGE help to this newbie, thanks again!!

[roostwear]

I have an E pump on the Advantage. Mine has been converted from the E steering and reverse to the C/G setup. It gets the linkage out of the water, and isn't prone leakage (at the bellows). True, you will not get the performance from an E that you can from a C/G, but I'll be over 70mph soon with an 18' open bow. Good enough :D
PS- If you have the rudder, bolt it on and try it. It helps the steering on some boats at low speed. Whatcha got to lose?

[Commander460]

I had the rudder on for my spinout!! So I guess I should try it without. How much does it cost to convert from the e type to the C/G???

[roostwear]

I don't know that the rudder helped or hurt you on the spinout. Since you already have a diverter, I wouldn't convert. You would have to get another diverter for a c/g and I don't really see that it would make $en$e.

[BowTie Rick]

The steering looks "normal" for that pump. It may be worn and have play though, who knows. I checked it out at CP Perf diagram (http://www.cpperformance.com/products/Jet-Drives/244.htm)

[PUMP 'HER']

How about the loader grate, maybe that thing is hanging down on the left side or something. I'm sure it would affect the ride at speed too but...

[BrendellaJet]

Originally posted by Commander460
How much does it cost to convert from the e type to the C/G???
A Lot. Unless you are willing to do it yourself, then it would just cost a bunch. If you could find a cheap replacement pump, you could do it for pretty cheap. Lots of work though. If you are seriously interested(Id make sure this is a hull you would like to go fast with, if it doesn't handle a shutdown well, i would get rid of it.)but dont want to do it yourself, give jack at MPD a call, He might do it...

[ROZ]

Originally posted by Jetdriver
I was thinking the same thing the steering linkage looks to be a weak point! Not just the steering... Look at the plant in the 3rd pick... It looks like it's getting too much water:D

[Hustler]

Originally posted by ROZ
Not just the steering... Look at the plant in the 3rd pick... It looks like it's getting too much water:D
Stop scoping out shit other peoples back yards, they might get the wrong impression of you;) :D

[HBjet]

Originally posted by Commander460
It seems that if I hold the steering tight, I'm ok, even though its still a little squirley.
This + What these photos show
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat11-med.bmp
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat2-med.bmp
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/212boat7-med.bmp
Tells me this.
When your diverter is down this far, you are draging the bottom of the nozzle in the water. When your running on plane and you let off the gas not really holding the wheel.... the force of the water running through the reverse part of the nozzle will grab the nozzle. So, when your not really holding the wheel, and you let off 99% of the time you won't have the nozzle 100% straight so when the water grabs it, it will turn it, which as you found out turns the boat. Everyone is talking about bow steer, and they are correct in the fact you have to be aware about it, but thats not the problem since you mentioned when you hold the wheel tight, your ok (nozzle is straight, but your fighting with the water rushing through it) If it was a bow steer problem, it would happen whether you held the wheel or not.
What to do? 1st, don't ever let off the gas, ease out of the gas and that goes for any speed. 2nd, before coming off plane, move the diverter up a few notches.
HBjet

[Jordy]

Maybe it's just me, but that looks like an awful lot of down nozzle. I know my jet has nowhere near that much down, maybe 10 degrees or so below being level with the bottom.

[Rexone]

The rudder is not a turn fin. It should have no or little effect on what's happening here. Rudder is useful only for around the dock maneuvering etc.
Also fundamental. Don't turn and let off the gas abrubtly in a jet or try to turn and let off the gas. Jets require thrust to turn (or to keep going straight as in correction mode). If you try to correct the steering with no throttle the boat will not correct. Turning the steering wheel without thrust from the pump only excercises your arms, won't turn the boat (or correct the boat from turning).
Very basic stuff but sometimes problems turn out to be very basic.

[LVjetboy]

That steering linkage looks flakey to me. As others mentioned, maybe some flex. I'd convert it to a better design if it was my pump. Is your lower pivot pin supposed to hang down that low or is it falling out? With the divertor full down, I wouldn't be surprised if you got bow steer at slow to medium speeds (maybe more with a short plate length) I'd bet it's dragin' forcing the nose down added to your downward pump thrust. I get minor bow steer with my divertor full down at medium speed in smoother water. I won't drive over a certain speed with it full down. Learning to drive is one thing, but in your case I believe you should make some setup changes for safety. Why learn to drive around a bad setup?
jer

[Commander460]

This all makes sense guys, thanks. I'm going to go over everything several times to make sure its good to go, then I will take it to the lake and practice shuting down with different diverter positions.

[Shark In The Pond]

I'm with HBjet on this ,I was looking at the same thing last nite ? Did you put it down for the pic or are you running down the lake in that position ? Trim it where you can just see the roost about a foot high and see what happens ?? Hauling ass and letting off can get ugly ..not good .

[Froggystyle]

Looks like some good advice to me...

[berk]

froggy and others: please dont just dribble your thoughts out in the thread. nobody cares what you think is good advise. its annoying to look at the post thinking there is something pertinent on this topic just to find out you think something, who knows what, was good advise. its useless dribble.

[HM]

Originally posted by berk
froggy and others: please dont just dribble your thoughts out in the thread. nobody cares what you think is good advise. its annoying to look at the post thinking there is something pertinent on this topic just to find out you think something, who knows what, was good advise. its useless dribble.
On the contrary. Froggy and others are known to give great advise and if they agree, it adds to the credibility of the advise.
Does it really take that much of your time to read a few lines? Perhaps a speed reading course is needed. Or, you have the choice of not reading. If you get annoyed at stuff like this, you won't last long around here.

[77charger]

I had a 19 ft charger which is the same hull as yours mine liked to spin out alot or pull to one side if you let off fast.Reasons the intake skags were broken off,lose nozzle,no rudder on nozzle.I had the pump gone thru before i sold it.I had the skags on the intake welded back on a new diverter with the big rudder,And after that my boat went really strait and didnt want to spin out anymore .I really dont know where to give credit the big diverter udder,or the new skags welded on the intake.But defintely Jack at MPD gets credit for the labor and pump work.
BTW do you get loose going parralel on boat wakes?Mine use to do that also before the added parts.Like i said big improvement
I am leaving now for the river so i might forget this topic.:D

[Shark In The Pond]

Originally posted by berk
froggy and others: please dont just dribble your thoughts out in the thread. nobody cares what you think is good advise. its annoying to look at the post thinking there is something pertinent on this topic just to find out you think something, who knows what, was good advise. its useless dribble.
Sorry Jerk I mean Berk :yuk: " Useless Dribble " First time to the boards ? :D

[Aluminum Squirt]

Berk, I read nearly every post on this forum. Maybe I'm missing something but I haven't seen you contribute anything usefull yet. Picking on Froggy (over 4,000 posts by the way) is probably not the recommended way to establish yourself as an actual contributor of intelligent thought to this forum. The number of posts you have usually doesn't mean much but people around here remember if somebody is smart and helpful or just a smart ass. People recognize who to listen to, people know who starts soap operas, etc. I know you don't like me and I know why, I have no problem with that, but for Christ's sake, if you don't like a post don't read it-Aluminum Squirt
PS-Thanx for all the free PR on the diverter, sold it in like 72 hours. I knew I should have kept raising the price.

[berk]

great cant wait for another 4000 post like this. sorry froggy, i would love to read your thoughts on strippers and nail salons, just not while i am here.
moly: no i dont need a speed reading course, i need a speed loading computer, and no i dont have the choice to not read because the people who post on here dont ever give a subject which in any way gives an idea of the content! i aplaud this guys clarity "i spun out!" is a subject. "carbs" or "please respond" arent subjects, just words. so you see? unless a person reads every god damn stupid post like aluminum squirt then how can we tell? and aluminum squirt enough with the stupid PD get over yourself. you sure knew to keep raising the price huh? good for you! ok enough drama dribble just keep it to boats please - ENOUGH!
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Oh, and Powerquest... There are plenty of things that guys and girls can do with their friends that don't require a special weekend. I hang with my friends an awful lot. When we do, often there are no chicks there, and it is because they don't like what we are doing. Paintball, shooting, mountain-bike riding, scuba diving in cold water, running, etc... are all examples. These I do with my friends, and Audrey wants none of it. I hate shopping, beauty salons, spas, shopping, nail salons, shoe stores, shopping, malls, etc... These, Audrey and her friends do on their own. We do these without each other, because the other one does not like to do them. We both LOVE the river, so it is insulting for us to go without the other. Big difference.
Game on...

[Rexone]

Don't like don't read. Someone shove a stick up your butt or somethin?
Nice sig btw.

[BrendellaJet]

Berk, You're not too bright are you?
The strippers thread you are referring to was in the sandbar, thats the kind of shit they talk about in there.

[ssanddemon]

berk, I suggest you get your complaining ass over to another board. I was getting a lot out of this thread before you started pissing in everyone's cornflakes.
TAKE A HIKE!

[BigBlockBaja]

3 thoughts for ya Berk,
1. Buy a new computer.. If ya can afford to go boating, you can afford to buy a new computer, or at least upgrade yours enough to be functional
2. CABLE MODEM
3. DSL
Sorry, never posted due to drama, but i couldnt resist

[berk]

why would i need cable and dsl? actually i do have cable, pushing about 2.8 mbps. still takes too long. i think i will just take ssanddemons suggestion. later mulletheads.

[jweeks123]

in addition to the nozzle being way down, the plate looks to be even or down. then there is the lack of fins by the intake on the e pump. and finally, judging from the shape of the sides, the deep chine and the wide lift strake, this hull has a bottom copied from a 19 hornet - one of the all time spinners. the guys that raced those hornets put big turn fins underneath to make em track better.
jw

[MANIC MECHANIC]

Interesting thread,
I have a '78 sleekcraft aristocrat with the E pump that does the same thing.
Can somebody post a picture of the bottom fins you're talking about?
And Jerk I mean berk
I personally like to hear lots of opinions and who agrees with what....I find that's the way to make the most informed decision.
As far as your complaint about the way folks choose to label their topics... different people express themselves in different ways
and that's ok.
I'd hate to think I would have to sit here trying to think of the perfect way to post my topic for clarity and ease of reading for a bunch of guys like you.
Ya know.... It's just not that important!
Get a life....
And since your bitchin' about useless dribble like agreeing with someone else's opinion.....
I agree with Rexone, you really should pull that stick out of your butt!
Tim

[Commander460]

Does anyone have a picture of these big turn fins; I really want to make sure this thing starts tracking straight. Also, I checked all the things that are being discussed, and I have fins by the intake, and my pump doesnt seem excessively loose. But it does wiggle where that pin goes through and hangs out the bottom(you can see it in the pics) I think this pin is the pivot pin for the jet when you steer. It has about a quarter inch of play. Maybe I'm missing a bushing????????
Does anyone that knows what they are talking about, and lives close to lancaster of valencia Ca. want to go to the lake and go for a spin... Oh, I mean go for a putt and see if we can determine what this problem is???

[Rexone]

If you put a fin or fins on it get advice from someone who knows exactly where to place them (not me) or you can cause more problems than you correct. Fin location can be critical on certain hulls. Just my .025

[Hal]

What to do? 1st, don't ever let off the gas, ease out of the gas and that goes for any speed. 2nd, before coming off plane, move the diverter up a few notches.
HBjet
This is the best advice I have read here. The most important being the the 1st step for the people that don't have a diverter.

[JustMVG]

I have a diverter on my ultra a21 footer and i only run the the div. in the down position in rough water to keep the ride comfortable, other than those stituations i can't see a reason to keep a boat from "airing" out and letting it "run. great posts guys . keep it up!! MVG

[PUMP 'HER']

Originally posted by Commander460
Does anyone have a picture of these big turn fins;
Are these the fins we are talking about?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/741fins.jpg

[Commander460]

Ohhh... Are those the fins I need???? Can someone tell me if I need these to keep from spinning and acting squirely???
I'll be happy to take anyone too the lake and show them what I'm talking about!!!

[MudPumper]

Josh, I would be happy to have a look at your boat and go for a cruise with you. I live in Canyon Country right on your way to Castaic. PM me if your interested and we can figure something out.
Mike