Battery boxes [Archive] - RiverRacer.Net

Froggystyle

06-21-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by superdave013
CA'MON, I really have no idea what you need 6V for. Or are you putting them in series for 12V? I doubt that though.
The six volts have significantly more reserve capacity than a similarly sized 12 volt due to the increased size of each plate, and it's interaction with the electrolyte, among other reasons.
We are putting them in series (hence the double sized battery box) and running 12 volts. The jury is still out as to whether or not we are going to be running 4 of them per Trident or 2. We will see what the run time is with our stereo system with both, and choose whether or not we want the weight gain (as well as the charging problems) or not.
The big benefit is, they are made for over 1,000 cycles, and absolutely do not fail, they have a serious reserve capacity. Not to mention, about a billion golf carts (notoriously high draw and recharge rates) can't be wrong. Availability is everywhere, and they are less than $50 per battery.
Optimas are great, if you need the battery upside down or in a passenger compartment. For everything else, go lead acid.

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
The six volts have significantly more reserve capacity than a similarly sized 12 volt due to the increased size of each plate, and it's interaction with the electrolyte, among other reasons.
The "other reason" is that batteries in series double the resistance...which is why using batteries in series is a big "no-no" in the audio world.
Essencially, it just releases the energy slower- great for golf cart motors...but not so good for a dynamic draw like audio.
So, if you are going to be driving your boat on a golf course, 6 volts are the way to go!
Fore!

RiverDave

06-21-2004, 03:07 PM

HH, explain that to me becuase I'm getting ready to up the batteries in the Nordic. Which way would you go? I've been running the interstates forever and just changing them every season, usually by the end of the season to say they are junk is an understatement. Do you think 2 Optimas would be enough for me? I was considering running 2 6 volts for the stereo as a stand alone kinda deal and then running the 2 interstates for the boat because of all the rants and raves on the board. The engineers here @ work tell me that there's no reason to run 6 volts though so I've been kinda hesitant on that deal.. I'm also concerned about weight becuase my boat is so sensitive in that dept.
Can I just add one more battery for a total of 3 (stingers or optimas or whatever)? 2 for the stereo and one to run the boat etc..?? As well which 12 batteries would you recomend?
RD
RD

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by RiverDave
Which way would you go?
How much money you got?
For the "mobile dance floor" (AKA- DJ Royalties), I would do more than two Optimas...

rrrr

06-21-2004, 03:14 PM

Pffffffffftttttttt... You guys need to quit screwing around. HERE's a goldanged battery....
http://www.industrialpowerproducts.com/web3_files/image003.jpg
:D :D

RiverDave

06-21-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
How much money you got?
For the "mobile dance floor" (AKA- DJ Royalties), I would do more than two Optimas...
Would you recomend another battery over the optima for around the same price?
RD

rivercrazy

06-21-2004, 03:17 PM

Hey RD. I think your running similar watts to what I'm running. Right under 2000 right? Two group 24 blue tops wired in parallel last me at least 4 hours without running them down too far. That's at stereo volume up between 1/2 to 2/3'rd. I don't try and be sandbar DJ though. And I'm on my 4th season with them!
The key is charging them with a good quality multi stage automatic charger at the end of every day.
I bet if you went with 2 or 3 of the new group 31 optima, it would provide the kind of performance your looking for. And they will last more than a season as long as you don't grind them down below about 60% discharge.:D

Froggystyle

06-21-2004, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Essencially, it just releases the energy slower- great for golf cart motors...but not so good for a dynamic draw like audio.
I wish we had that smiley with the little guy rolling his eyes and jerking off...
Nobody I know with 6 volts has ANY problem with a theoretical slower draw. Most are completely blown away with run time, ease of charging at 20+ amps per battery and other assorted bonuses that can only be had with the Trojan's.
RD, you have been in OTR before. Ever see any runtime problems with the Trojans?
Me neither...
I think Lightning may chime in here with some runtime records with only two Trojans, and once Novaguy gets his on the water, I think he may be in the same boat (no pun intended).
To each his own. I have run both, and am FAR more satisfied with the Trojans, in nearly every single aspect. I am not a big fan of the 12 pounds heavier per battery, but love everything else about them.

RiverDave

06-21-2004, 03:20 PM

I'll have to take the measurements on what will fit down in that hole that Nordic sticks them in and go from there. I have a real small "stinger" battery for Bubbles and the guy that sold it to me swears up and down it's atleast as good as one of those big interstates for stereo playing and about as good as an normal sized Optima. ****ing things are pricey though it was like 180 something dollars?
RD

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
Nobody I know with 6 volts has ANY problem with a theoretical slower draw.
Hey Froggy...no need to get your warts in a bunch.
Now, ever wonder why no matter how many batteries you run in series...the amp-hours stay the same? Because you're stacking resistance- no "magic". If you take two sets of identical batteries, and run one in series and one in parallel...which will discharge faster?
The parallel, of course. How come the energy is being released faster? Less resistance...the amps are drawing it...more energy = more watts.
All I'm gonna say is that I've heard three systems with 6 volts...and all three sounded flat to me. Of course...it could have been the equipment or install. :eek:
But that's just me...what do I know?
6 volts belong in retirement homes or on the 18th fairway.

rivercrazy

06-21-2004, 03:49 PM

http://www.optimabatteries.com/products/pdf/D31M.pdf
155 reserve minutes per battery. Multiply that by 3 = 465 reserve minutes. If you ain't deaf by then, everyone else will be. Ooops, you got those funny Kicker subs. Maybe not! :D :D :D

Lightning

06-21-2004, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
I think Lightning may chime in here with some runtime records with only two Trojans, and once Novaguy gets his on the water, I think he may be in the same boat (no pun intended).
To each his own. I have run both, and am FAR more satisfied with the Trojans, in nearly every single aspect. I am not a big fan of the 12 pounds heavier per battery, but love everything else about them.
I have two 6 volts in my boat. I have had no problems what so ever. I have yet to run out of juice for my stereo, even after two long days on the water. Also, keep in mind, my stereo batteries are not connected to the alternator in my boat - they get recharged at the end of the weekend. Last year at OP6, we had the stereo on all day at the sandbar and then on for the evening float with Slick, we did not get home until 3 a.m. and we were still looking strong on the volt meter for the stereo batteries.
To each his own, whatever works best for whoever's system. All I know is the 12 volt system which was giving me a lot of problems and running out of juice was replaced with 2 Trojan 6 volts, and i have yet to run out of battery with the stereo.
I don't know how many amp hours the Optimas have, nor do I feel like looking it up right now - however I do know that a single T-105 Trojan has about 260 amp hours which is a lot more then the Optimas had the last time I checked. More amp hours = more play time.
Then again, you can buy about 3 Trojan's for the cost of one Optima blue top.

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Lightning
...I do know that a single T-105 Trojan has about 260 amp hours which is a lot more then the Optimas had the last time I checked. More amp hours = more play time.
Man...you guys are funny.
Do you realize that you could place a resister in-line with any battery setup and add amp hours?
More resistance = more amp hours.
Resisitance = bad for audio
Resistance = good for golf carts.
Ever wonder why the audio-specialized batteries have less amp-hours and less internal resistance? They are designed that way for optimum performance for audio.
Originally posted by Lightning
Then again, you can buy about 3 Trojan's for the cost of one Optima blue top.
I still can't figure out why you guys would spend tens of thousands of dollars on your boat...and many more thousand on your stereo...
...only to use the most ghetto batteries available. You might as well hold your Rockwood pre-fab sub boxes down with a bungee cord.
If there are an audio guys looking at your system...don't show them your batteries- you may not hear the system over the laughter.
Oh wait. Froggy is selling boxes for them?
My bad...they must work great.

Froggystyle

06-21-2004, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Man...you guys are funny.
Do you realize that you could place a resister in-line with any battery setup and add amp hours?
More resistance = more amp hours.
Resisitance = bad for audio
Resistance = good for golf carts.
Ever wonder why the audio-specialized batteries have less amp-hours and less internal resistance? They are designed that way for optimum performance for audio.
I still can't figure out why you guys would spend tens of thousands of dollars on your boat...and many more thousand on your stereo...
...only to use the most ghetto batteries available. You might as well hold your Rockwood pre-fab sub boxes down with a bungee cord.
If there are an audio guys looking at your system...don't show them your batteries- you may not hear the system over the laughter.
Oh wait. Froggy is selling boxes for them?
My bad...they must work great.
You're so cute... with your little opinions. I love it.
Yeah, I'll bungee my rockwoods down. Thanks for the advice. For someone who is such a nice guy in person, you are a pretty serious schmuck online, you know that?
I have had plenty of audio guys who's opinions I respect a great deal more than your jaded, single sided rhetoric tell me it appears to be the perfect solution to the problem. The lower cost is a wonderful side effect.
Sell your BS somewhere else. Check the thread title...

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
You're so cute... with your little opinions. I love it....
Froggy...I didn't think I was your type.
Originally posted by Froggystyle
For someone who is such a nice guy in person, you are a pretty serious schmuck online, you know that?
Froggy...I never pull punches (online or in person)...you know me well enough...what I say here I say anywhere.
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Sell your BS somewhere else.
I'm not selling anything. Just stating my unbiased opinion based on experiences (like you used to).
Originally posted by Froggystyle
Check the thread title...
Originally posted by Froggystyle
The six volts have significantly more reserve capacity than a similarly sized 12 volt due to the increased size of each plate, and it's interaction with the electrolyte, among other reasons.
We are putting them in series (hence the double sized battery box) and running 12 volts. The jury is still out as to whether or not we are going to be running 4 of them per Trident or 2. We will see what the run time is with our stereo system with both, and choose whether or not we want the weight gain (as well as the charging problems) or not.
The big benefit is, they are made for over 1,000 cycles, and absolutely do not fail, they have a serious reserve capacity. Not to mention, about a billion golf carts (notoriously high draw and recharge rates) can't be wrong. Availability is everywhere, and they are less than $50 per battery.
Optimas are great, if you need the battery upside down or in a passenger compartment. For everything else, go lead acid.

Froggystyle

06-21-2004, 08:08 PM

"just over here shaking my head..."

DogHouse

06-21-2004, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
...
More resistance = more amp hours.
Resisitance = bad for audio
Resistance = good for golf carts.
Ever wonder why the audio-specialized batteries have less amp-hours and less internal resistance? They are designed that way for optimum performance for audio.
...
You're not trying to ruin a perfectly good debate with technical facts are you? You know that's not allowed.
:D

Havasu Hangin'

06-21-2004, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by DogHouse
You're not trying to ruin a perfectly good debate with technical facts are you? You know that's not allowed.
You're right...my bad. Please carry on with the "voo doo urban legend" debate.
"just over here shaking my head up and down..." http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/1/happy02.gif

BoatFloating

06-21-2004, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Hey Froggy...no need to get your warts in a bunch.
Now, ever wonder why no matter how many batteries you run in series...the amp-hours stay the same? Because you're stacking resistance- no "magic". If you take two sets of identical batteries, and run one in series and one in parallel...which will discharge faster?
The parallel, of course. How come the energy is being released faster? Less resistance...the amps are drawing it...more energy = more watts.
All I'm gonna say is that I've heard three systems with 6 volts...and all three sounded flat to me. Of course...it could have been the equipment or install. :eek:
But that's just me...what do I know?
6 volts belong in retirement homes or on the 18th fairway.
Yada, Yada, Mr Audiofile........

DogHouse

06-21-2004, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by BoatFloating
Yada, Yada, Mr Audiofile........
Yeah we know what you death row inmates do with 6v batteries!
:D

superdave013

06-21-2004, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
Here are some pics of the battery boxes for the Trojans if anyone is interested...
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/battery_boxes.jpg
Back on topic. These boxes look pretty kick ass to me!

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by BoatFloating
Yada, Yada, Mr Audiofile........
Yada...yada...yada...Mr. Pimp "Coozy" Daddy...

Tom Brown

06-22-2004, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Oh wait. Froggy is selling boxes for them?
My bad...they must work great.
How you can cut down Froggy and mock Phat Cat at the same time is beyond me.
:D

rrrr

06-22-2004, 07:42 AM

Some of you guys are confused. All batteries are made up from cells in series. A typical lead acid electrolyte battery has a nominal value of 1.5 volts per cell. That means a 6 volt battery has three cells, and a 12 volt battery has six cells. Batteries are normally operated at a float (or charge) voltage of 2.25 to 2.40 VPC. A battery is considered fully discharged when it reaches 1.75 VPC.
The amount of power used to run a load has nothing to do with the battery's amp hour rating. Amp hours are a just means of comparing various batteries by using a power value (amps) divided by a run time (hours). Typically in automotive and marine type batteries this is expressed at a 20 hour rate, meaning a 75 amp hour battery will run a 3.75 amp (75/20) load for 20 hours.
As you might be able to guess, 3.75 amps isn't an important number. What is important in a stereo application is the battery's ability to provide current, which is expressed in watts per cell.
If a six volt battery and a twelve volt battery have the same size plates, there is no difference in internal resistance per cell. One just has six cells instead of three. Two six volt batteries in series would have virtually the same resistance as the same plate size twelve volt battery. A properly sized, connected and torqued intercell connector between two batteries should add no more than 50 micro ohms or so to the mix.
I don't know why HH thinks twelve volt batteries have less resistance than a six. They have twice as many cells.
Anyway, for our purposes watts per cell is the determining factor for battery power output. This is directly related to power density, or the amount of watts available per cell at a given discharge rate. It should be no surprise that all other things being equal, a battery with larger plates will have a higher energy density than a smaller one.
Not only that, the larger plate area allows a greater discharge rate without harming the battery. Why dooya have to throw away your Optima every year? Because a battery has a finite life cycle discharge rating. Smaller batteries have less cycle life because the discharge rates stress the plates more and the electrolyte chemicals break down more rapidly. A larger battery designed for a more rapid discharge (like powering a golf cart) will be loafing along running your stereo.
By the way, the manner in which the battery is recharged will also affect it's lifespan. Just as too rapid a discharge will ruin a battery, so will a rapid recharge. A battery discharged to 1.75 VPC should be recharged at a rate no greater than .05 times the battery amp hour rating. That's only five amps for a 100 AH battery. Any faster and the heat developed will degrade the plates and electrolyte. Once the current drops to around two amps the battery charger should switch to a float voltage mode of around 2.25 to 2.28 VPC.
Why am I such a know-it-all? Here's picture of batteries my company typically installs.... :D :D
http://www.computexinc.com/images/Battery%20Plant.jpg

RiverDave

06-22-2004, 08:12 AM

rrrrr, I have a question for you.
Anyway, for our purposes watts per cell is the determining factor for battery power output. This is directly related to power density, or the amount of watts available per cell at a given discharge rate. It should be no surprise that all other things being equal, a battery with larger plates will have a higher energy density than a smaller one.
When you say "Larger plates." Are you referring to larger in size? Or larger in Surface area? Becuase it would seem to me that a 12Volt battery with more plates would have more surface area on the plates (like a heat sink) then a 6 volt that only has 3 plates?
Either way, after reading the thread.. which would you use? The 6 volts wired up to 12 volts, or just a couple of 12 volts?
RD <---- doesn't know 6 volt from 12volt..

superdave013

06-22-2004, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by rrrr
Some of you guys are confused. All batteries are made up from cells in series. A typical lead acid electrolyte battery has a nominal value of 1.5 volts per cell. That means a 6 volt battery has three cells, and a 12 volt battery has six cells. Batteries are normally operated at a float (or charge) voltage of 2.25 to 2.40 VPC. A battery is considered fully discharged when it reaches 1.75 VPC.
The amount of power used to run a load has nothing to do with the battery's amp hour rating. Amp hours are a just means of comparing various batteries by using a power value (amps) divided by a run time (hours). Typically in automotive and marine type batteries this is expressed at a 20 hour rate, meaning a 75 amp hour battery will run a 3.75 amp (75/25) load for 20 hours.
As you might be able to guess, 3.75 amps isn't an important number. What is important in a stereo application is the battery's ability to provide current, which is expressed in watts per cell.
If a six volt battery and a twelve volt battery have the same size plates, there is no difference in internal resistance per cell. One just has six cells instead of three. Two six volt batteries in series would have virtually the same resistance as the same plate size twelve volt battery. A properly sized, connected and torqued intercell connector between two batteries should add no more than 50 micro ohms or so to the mix.
I don't know why HH thinks twelve volt batteries have less resistance than a six. They have twice as many cells.
Anyway, for our purposes watts per cell is the determining factor for battery power output. This is directly related to power density, or the amount of watts available per cell at a given discharge rate. It should be no surprise that all other things being equal, a battery with larger plates will have a higher energy density than a smaller one.
Not only that, the larger plate area allows a greater discharge rate without harming the battery. Why dooya have to throw away your Optima every year? Because a battery has a finite life cycle discharge rating. Smaller batteries have less cycle life because the discharge rates stress the plates more and the electrolyte chemicals break down more rapidly. A larger battery designed for a more rapid discharge (like powering a golf cart) will be loafing along running your stereo.
By the way, the manner in which the battery is recharged will also affect it's lifespan. Just as too rapid a discharge will ruin a battery, so will a rapid recharge. A battery discharged to 1.75 VPC should be recharged at a rate no greater than .05 times the battery amp hour rating. That's only five amps for a 100 AH battery. Any faster and the heat developed will degrade the plates and electrolyte. Once the current drops to around two amps the battery charger should switch to a float voltage mode of around 2.25 to 2.28 VPC.
Why am I such a know-it-all? Here's picture of batteries my company typically installs.... :D :D
http://www.computexinc.com/images/Battery%20Plant.jpg
rrr, do you think I would loose any top end with that set up under the hatch? lol

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 08:21 AM

Dave,
Two Optima's for the stereo, one for the boat, on a Perko.
flawless, leak-free, zero maintainance.
Been on this system going on the fourth season without any run down problems.:)
Plus....it's fairly easy to find trick billet boxes for optimas, have you seen what battery acid does to aluminum?:eek!:

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by rrrr
I don't know why HH thinks twelve volt batteries have less resistance than a six. They have twice as many cells.
In audio we are looking for the largest capacity, amp hours (Ah), and CCA from our batteries.
Connecting two batteries in parallel will double the amp hours and capacity. While connecting two batteries in series will increase the voltage, the amp hours and capacity will stay the same. Batteries also have internal resistance as well, you are increasing the resistance in the circuit when connecting batteries in series as well.
This means running batteries in parallel is more to our advantage. There are cases when running batteries in series is better for slow drain items like golf carts.
This is due to ohms law. Here is something to remember for two items.
Resistors R1 and R2 in series:
Total resistance = R1 + R2
Resistors R1 and R2 in parallel:
Total resistance = 1 / ((R1 + R2) / (R1 * R2))
Capacitor C1 and C2 in series:
Total capacitance = 1 / ((C1 + C2) / (C1 * C2))
Capacitor C1 and C2 in parallel:
Total capacitance = C1 + C2
The capacity gained by reducing energy draw or current drain in a parallel configuration versus a series configuration can be determined by evaluating Peukert's Formula:
T = C / (I*n)
Where T is how long you can drain current I from a battery that has a capacity C and an internal resistance characteristic n. This equation is pretty straight forward.
For a point of reference, both the Red and Blue Optimas have .0030 ohms of resistance where the Yellow has .0028 ohms. A Stinger SP1000 has an internal resistance: 0.0031 ohms.
Don't make me remember any more physics today, please.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 08:33 AM

RD, it's mostly just a function of individual plate size. Six or twelve doesn't matter. The two sixes have shltloads of plate area so they aren't working as hard.
As for longevity, it's kinda like how much boost you run in a motor or how long you go between water pump impeller changes. Some guys are lucky, some aren't. Heck, in this thread alone one guy throws away his Optimas every year and another goes four years.
If I had the space and the weight wasn't an issue I would use the sixes.

RiverDave

06-22-2004, 08:46 AM

Thanks rrrr.. :)
Both weight and space are an issue on my little boat so I'll probably go with the 12's. Sounds like Froggy is on the right track with the 6's in the Trident though.
RD

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 09:17 AM

Optima's are a form of recombinant gas batteries. RG batteries have only 2 long thin plates per cell. They are constructed much like an electrolytic capacitor. The plates are separated by a fiberglass mat material designed to hold the electrolyte. These long thin plates have significant amounts of surface area (compared to standard batteries). This extra surface area allows the battery to produce significantly more current than standard batteries of similar physical size. RG batteries won't vent flammable hydrogen gas or corrosive gasses into the vehicle.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
The capacity gained by reducing energy draw or current drain in a parallel configuration versus a series configuration can be determined by evaluating Peukert's Formula:
T = C / (I*n)
Where T is how long you can drain current I from a battery that has a capacity C and an internal resistance characteristic n. This equation is pretty straight forward.
For a point of reference, both the Red and Blue Optimas have .0030 ohms of resistance where the Yellow has .0028 ohms. A Stinger SP1000 has an internal resistance: 0.0031 ohms.
Don't make me remember any more physics today, please.
You are focusing on resistance as the only important parameter. That's great if you want to draw 3.75 amps for 20 hours as in my earlier example. But batteries have a physical limit on current delivery capability.
The "C" limit of a battery in your equation is defined by the amp hour capacity times a constant.
An Optima yellow top is rated at 55 Ah using a C/20. That means it can only put out 20 amps for 2.75 hours without being damaged.
Two Trojan T-105s in series are rated at 225 Ah using the same "C" rating, and could power a 41 amp load for 5.5 hours without being damaged.
Damage means shortened lifespan. The bigger plate is superior because it can handle the discharge rate better.
Oh, and the resistance difference between the two setups is barely noticeable. Jeez, .0031 Ohms vs. .0059. As far as dynamic demand and all that, the six volt batteries have a short circuit current rating just about double that of the Optimas because the big plates and more robust intercell connectors can produce much more current.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
RG batteries won't vent flammable hydrogen gas or corrosive gasses into the vehicle.
This is something to be aware of. The only issue is when severe discharge or recharge is taking place. Even then, the amount of hydrogen gas is not great and can be easily vented with a standard boat blower system. I could do the calcs but I'm going to lunch.
Like everything else, there are tradeoffs to all designs. Figger out which one you like and go with it. Just don't run into my boat or steal my woman. :D :D

Magic34

06-22-2004, 09:33 AM

This turned into a really cool thread. Tons of good info!
I used 6 6V Trojans to get 675 amp hours. No problems as of yet. My stereo draws at full volume, loud song playing, 155 amps (hooked up to meter). If/When the batteries fail, I'll let everyone know, but so far they have done a great job. When I purchased the batteries, the owner of the battery shop only echoed what info Froggy told me. Thanks again for the help and cool thread!

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by rrrr
This is something to be aware of. The only issue is when severe discharge or recharge is taking place. Even then, the amount of hydrogen gas is not great and can be easily vented with a standard boat blower system. I could do the calcs but I'm going to lunch.
You mean like everytime your running the stereo at the beach and recharging them at the end of the day? Plus the rough water pounding increases the chances of a nice little acid spill in the engine bay as well as internal damage to the battery from the pounding. Another major problem with the 6V system is WEIGHT!
To me the higher voltage provided by 12V batteries over two 6V's is also better for audio applications. More volts = more volume. And car amplifiers like higher volts. Less heat = longer life.

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by rrrr
You are focusing on resistance as the only important parameter.
But that's my point. All things being equal (storage), resistance is the limiting factor on energy release which is multiplied to wattage output.
Audio is a dynamic draw (probably not what you are used to). I have installed systems that were affected by battery choice (you'd be suprised). When I was doing competition systems...ANY resistance held back wattage output...and, yes, it could be measured.
Originally posted by rrrr
Two Trojan T-105s in series are rated at 225 Ah using the same "C" rating, and could power a 41 amp load for 5.5 hours without being damaged.
Which may be fine for your industrial applications (you can't hear the difference)...but audio?
Why build a 1,000HP blower engine and limit the throttle to save gas? It doesn't make sense to me...wasting all those good parts.
Fore!

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 10:12 AM

Maybe I'm not understanding something on the Trojan website. But it clearly states that when their 6V batteries are fully charged, they reflect 1.75V per cell. 1.75 Volts * 3 cells only equals 5.25 Volts or 10.5 volts in a 2 battery series wired configuration.
The missing 2 volts would really reduce the output on most non-regulated amplifer designs.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
Maybe I'm not understanding something on the Trojan website. But it clearly states that when their 6V batteries are fully charged, they reflect 1.75V per cell. 1.75 Volts * 3 cells only equals 5.25 Volts or 10.5 volts in a 2 battery series wired configuration.
The missing 2 volts would really reduce the output on most non-regulated amplifer designs.
1.75 VPC is the discharge cutoff for a lead acid battery. I haven't seen what you are lookin' at but it's prolly a typo-they mean DIS-
LOL :D

rrrr

06-22-2004, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
To me the higher voltage provided by 12V batteries over two 6V's is also better for audio applications. More volts = more volume. And car amplifiers like higher volts. Less heat = longer life.
Uh, two times six is twelve.....

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 10:52 AM

My point here is a fully charged Optima is 13.2 Volts. It appears that 2 fully charged 6V's at best would be 12V.
My math skills are as sharp as they used to be but I figured that 6+6 = 12! :D

Lightning

06-22-2004, 11:04 AM

rrrr

06-22-2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
My point here is a fully charged Optima is 13.2 Volts. It appears that 2 fully charged 6V's at best would be 12V.
My math skills are as sharp as they used to be but I figured that 6+6 = 12! :D
Just remember that the CELL is what matters. A fully charged single cell times number of cells equals the battery's "open circuit voltage". A typical lead acid battery is fully charged when the specific gravity is 1.25. The approximate corresponding open cell voltage is SG plus .845, or 2.1 VPC.
So for a fully charged 12 volt battery the OCV will be 12.6 and a six volt battery will be 6.3. Your meter will read higher than that when you charge the battery but that is the "skin charge" on the plates and it dissapates rapidly.

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 11:35 AM

So, to summarize,
6 v batteries in series are superior to 12 v batteries in parallel.
And 6X9 speakers are superior to 6.5 component speakers.
And capacitors are a useless waste of money.

Tom Brown

06-22-2004, 11:49 AM

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Tom Brown
To summarize,
my mind is closed and I'm not going to listen to what you have to say.
:D

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 11:57 AM

superdave013

06-22-2004, 12:00 PM

god dammit! if I was running two six volt batters I'ed want one of those friggen dual batter box set ups!
Froggy, what' the list price on those pups?

Essex29

06-22-2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by superdave013
god dammit! if I was running two six volt batters I'ed want one of those friggen dual batter box set ups!
Froggy, what' the list price on those pups?
YEAH, what he said!

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 12:09 PM

Tom Brown

06-22-2004, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Capacitors make great PWC projectiles...
Don't forget to charge them before dropping in your PWC mortar.

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 12:14 PM

This is such a helpful forum.
Never have I learned of my mistakes more quickly than here.:cool:

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 12:29 PM

Capacitors do have one redeeming value in the boating world. If someone reaches for your beer supply, touch the terminals of a full charged cap on the can while the thief takes a sip. It just might get their attention!

rrrr

06-22-2004, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
So, to summarize,
6 v batteries in series are superior to 12 v batteries in parallel.
And 6X9 speakers are superior to 6.5 component speakers.
And capacitors are a useless waste of money.
Eh...it depends. :D
As someone pointed out, I'm not an audio expert ( :D ) but I do have a pretty good understanding of battery characteristics. So my whole line of reasoning is that discharge rates are what matter.
The typical yo-yo-dynamo-in-yo-face-and-suck-me-ho stereo draws more current out of Optimas than the manufacturer recommends. A bigger battery will last for more discharge/recharge cycles when properly charged using the manufacturers instructions.
Speakers? Don't ask me.
Capacitors, mayyyyybe. Caps can provide instant peak amperage to maintain voltage supplied to the amp. I can buy caps at the electronic wholesaler for a fraction of what they sell for at the car shops. They are a rip off there. Batteries inherently contain capacitance, but there is a limit on their ability to handle peak loads. So if you have clipping then a cap bank might help that plus save the wear and tear on your alternator that occurs while under power.
Think of capacitors as an elevated tank full of water. If everyone turns on their tap, the tank level drops, but no one experiences a pressure drop because the tank is so big. Same with a cap or large battery system.
However, back we go to the plate size argument. The size of the plates and the intercell connectors (you can't see 'em) dictate the ability of the battery to respond to current changes. Two Trojans are going to have a more constant voltage output than two Optimas in parallel. The huge difference in their short circuit current ability proves that beyond a doubt.
Throw in the fact that the Trojan is durable and cheap and it starts sounding like a good deal. Sure, the batteries take a pounding in a boat. But they are constructed with methods that firmly affix the plates in the case so they can take it. That's one of the reasons the sprial wound AGM Optima works so well. The tightly wound flexible plates contained within the cylinder can't move, so the intercell connectors stay intact.
I just had a stereo put in my new boat with three Optimas; out they go next week. :D :D

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 12:53 PM

Back to the battery discussion. In my yearning to understand the differences between a 6V and a 12V systems, here are few examples:
Two Optima 31D batteries wired up in parallel. They are rated for 155 reserve minutes each at a constant 25 amp draw down to 10.5 volts. Since they are wired up in parallel, the reserve minutes increases 2X to 310. This should provide 5.2 hours of run time at a constant 25 amp draw (maybe a little light for those who want to be sandbar DJ and use their car audio equipment like full blown "loudspeaker" abuse type duty.
versus...
Two Trojan T105's wired up in series to obtain 12 volts. They are rated for 447 reserve minutes each at a constant 25 amp draw down to 10.5 volts. Since they are wired up in series, the reserve minutes stays @ 447. This should provide 7.4 hours of run time at a constant 25 amp draw.
Not that much in the way of run time difference. And the 12V battery scenario affords the following advantages:
* Can be charged up by starting the boat engine. Doesn't have to be remotely charged with an outboard battery charger
* Assuming you use an AGM battery like an Optima, there is no dangerous gasses emited during charging or discharging
* The Optima will not leak
* The Optima will take the harsh vibration laden environment better
* The Optima never needs water so no hassling with dangerous battery acid.
* The Optima looks better and weighs less and is more compact.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 12:57 PM

THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE ( :D :D :D ) is that no decent size stereo only draws 25 amps. More like 60-100 and that's more than the Optima is rated for by the manufacturer.
That's why they cr*p out after 20 trips to the lake.

Tom Brown

06-22-2004, 01:01 PM

I really like my Optimas but then I look for nice clean gas stations when I'm driving somewhere and I have to pee.
The golf cart batteries seem like a better match for the audio duty cycle, though.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by Tom Brown
I really like my Optimas but then I look for nice clean gas stations when I'm driving somewhere and I have to pee.
Gee, Tom. Somehow I pictured you as the type that looks for seedy adult video stores perched on the edge of town.
:p :p :D :D

Tom Brown

06-22-2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by rrrr
Gee, Tom. Somehow I pictured you as the type that looks for seedy adult video stores perched on the edge of town.
I do but I don't pee there.

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by rrrr
EhThink of capacitors as an elevated tank full of water. If everyone turns on their tap, the tank level drops, but no one experiences a pressure drop because the tank is so big. Same with a cap or large battery system.
You just lost all credibility.
Unless you are saying that you water your lawn with caps?

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 01:06 PM

I understand what your saying.
But my experience with the Optima's hasn't reflected that. My system's total watts are right around 1,860. I figure with one 1200 watt Class D amp and two 2 channel amps putting out about 610 watts, I'm drawing peak amps of about 130 amps at the point of clipping. So if I'm running half of peak amp draw for normal listening, I'm drawing about 65 amps.
Going on the 4th season with my Optima's. But I maintain them. They are put on an 10 amp automatic charger at the end of each day and I top them off every time I'm out on a trip. So far they continue to perform like new:D :D
Oh and Cap's are a "drain" on the electrical system not a "source"! :D :p

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
Oh and Cap's are a "drain" on the electrical system not a "source"! :D :p
I think rrr needs to get past the Industrial Revolution.
Move on, man! There's a whole new world out there once you realize it's a new century!

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 01:20 PM

But if an electrical circuit is the same as a sprinkler system, I figure that the cap would keep the supply constant, the same way that the water tank would keep the pressure up in the sprinkler system.;)

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
But if an electrical circuit is the same as a sprinkler system, I figure that the cap would keep the supply constant, the same way that the water tank would keep the pressure up in the sprinkler system.;)
Yur assuming that the water supply is constant and not subject to change.
Most boat stereo use is parked. The cap becomes another use of power downstream from the battery. Since its discharged in a fraction of a second and then has to be recharged. Just like cash flow - there are sources and uses. A cap is a use! LOL! :D

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
Yur assuming that the water supply is constant and not subject to change.
Well, yeah.
The "water tank" like a capacitor has a supply line to keep it full, regardless of how many "taps" are opened on the city line.

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
the same way that the water tank would keep the pressure up in the sprinkler system.;)
But what if there is a leak in the hose?

mickeyfinn

06-22-2004, 01:35 PM

Just had to jump in and get my feet wet here. My understanding is that industry audio experts don't even agree to the usefulness of Caps in a system. My take on it is that if you normally listen to audio at a level that is below the discharge rating of your batteries with the occasional peak that exceeds that capacity then the caps may be of a little benefit. The cap is definitely a "use" not a "source" of power. There is no such thing as a 100% efficient transfer of power. During any transmission of power be it electrical or mechanical there are losses to consider, however there are probably situations where the capacitor could be of some benefit to the audio system.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
Yur assuming that the water supply is constant and not subject to change.
Most boat stereo use is parked. The cap becomes another use of power downstream from the battery. Since its discharged in a fraction of a second and then has to be recharged. Just like cash flow - there are sources and uses. A cap is a use! LOL! :D
Obviously the tank has to be refilled...last time I checked capacitors stored energy, not used it.
In the world I live in there are things called Di/Dt and Dv/Dt networks that make this happen. I don't guess you guys have ever seen things like a 2000 kVA UPS system with a DC filter containing several farads of capacitance.
Oh well. My credibility is gone, shot to hell by mobile audio experts.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
But what if there is a leak in the hose?
Well, personally, I just cut the hose a lillte behind the leaky spot and put a new hose end on. Sure the hose is shorter, but it saves having to buy a new hose.

Froggystyle

06-22-2004, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
Not that much in the way of run time difference.
Huh? The additional 2.2 hours of difference is over 42% more run time than the pair of Optimas. Seems to me, you would need another $180+ Optima (not to mention another $120+ billet box) adding another what, 50+ pounds to get less than half of an hour more run time (9% or so) than you would get out of two Trojans. Simple math...
And the 12V battery scenario affords the following advantages:
* Can be charged up by starting the boat engine. Doesn't have to be remotely charged with an outboard battery charger
* Assuming you use an AGM battery like an Optima, there is no dangerous gasses emited during charging or discharging
* The Optima will not leak
* The Optima will take the harsh vibration laden environment better
* The Optima never needs water so no hassling with dangerous battery acid.
* The Optima looks better and weighs less and is more compact.
Ummm. No offense Dave, but you can
A) Charge the Trojans with an alternator, it is just a really bad way to charge deep cycle batteries for this application. I choose not to.
B) Gas discharge is minimal and negligible, and certainly easily addressed by a simple blower and proper ventilation. (PS... it is precisely the vented design that helps allow you to charge at a MUCH higher rate)
C) In three plus years of operation on OTR, the T-105's never needed a single drop of water, and were at 100% of SG upon sale to Clownpuncher
D) Looks better I will give you. That is why I built the box I did, and it is certainly more compact, but not when you add the third Optima to make up for the run time difference.
In any case, my point is made. The run time, capacity, discharge rates and value, not to mention mine and my all of my referrals wonderful 100% positive feedback, combined with the 50% negative feedback I have personally experienced and gotten from others regarding the Optimas in nearly every capacity combine to solidify my resolve towards using Trojan's in the Revolution, as I personally feel they are the best performing solution that happens to be the best value as well.
I have had enough actual battery experts (not internet experts) validate my decision for me to be convinced.
I now bring you back to your regularly scheduled BS...

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
Huh? The additional 2.2 hours of difference is over 42% more run time than the pair of Optimas. Seems to me, you would need another $180+ Optima (not to mention another $120+ billet box) adding another what, 50+ pounds to get less than half of an hour more run time than you would get out of two Trojans. Simple math...
I see what your saying regarding run time. I guess it depends on your goals and priorities. Personally my application does not call for sandbar DJ loudspeaker duty. My system is mostly used while cruising, floating, and hanging out on beaches/coves. That doesn't call for consistent volume over about 50%. And in my boat 50% is pretty loud. With that type of use, 2 of my Optima's have been up to the job for over 3 years running. At least so far.
Again it depends on your priorities / goals are.

Froggystyle

06-22-2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
I see what your saying regarding run time. I guess it depends on your goals and priorities. Personally my application does not call for sandbar DJ loudspeaker duty.
Mine does ;)
My system is mostly used while cruising, floating, and hanging out on beaches/coves. That doesn't call for consistent volume over about 50%. And in my boat 50% is pretty loud. With that type of use, 2 of my Optima's have been up to the job for over 3 years running. At least so far.
Again it depends on your priorities / goals are.
My priorities, specifically would be to be able to do both if you wanted to.
You can always use less than your maximum potential, you can never squeeze more out.
Same principal with speed. You can always use less throttle. Real tough to add engine in the middle of a run.

Froggystyle

06-22-2004, 02:04 PM

Also, we are running a ton of wattage in each Revolution. 1200 from the Class D sub amp and another 1200, possibly run down to 2 ohms (nearly 2400) to the comonent amp. That is likely a huge draw, which we will find out exactly during testing. This will likely dictate whether or not we run 4 or 2 batteries for the stereo. I want a full weekend of moderate use out of one charge.

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
I have had enough actual battery experts (not internet experts) validate my decision for me to be convinced.
Keep selling those boxes, Froggy.
How about this for a slogan:
"Trident is to boats what Trojan is to batteries"

RiverToysJas

06-22-2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Keep selling those boxes, Froggy.
How about this for a slogan:
"Trident is to boats what Trojan is to batteries"
I thought Trident is boats, what Trojan is to sex..... Everything it used to be, only safer! ;) :D
RTJas :D

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 02:23 PM

Ding Ding! :D :D

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by RiverToysJas
I thought Trident is boats, what Trojan is to sex..... Everything it used to be, only safer! ;) :D
RTJas :D
"Trident...ribbed for her pleasure"
:cool:

1stepcloser

06-22-2004, 02:32 PM

"reservoir tip"
A condom capacitor?

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 02:34 PM

A nice 100 amp charge - Something to get her up and moving louder and faster! :D
Trojan Magnum. Very powerful engine need to get the battery barge up and going! :p
And this bank of batteries would require quite a Trojan Magnum!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/80battery.jpg

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by rrrr
Obviously the tank has to be refilled...last time I checked capacitors stored energy, not used it.
The knock on Caps has been that they have a high ESR value for the amount of usable stored energy.
ESR = heat (energy lost)
PS- I'm just messing with you. You are obviously way more advanced than the Industrial Revolution...
...I'd even dare to say the 1940's!

Jrocket

06-22-2004, 04:11 PM

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/80battery.jpg
Definately not for looks.Where did these ugly bastards come from?

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 04:42 PM

LOL! Not a boat! I think they are backup power supply for a house

Jrocket

06-22-2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
LOL! Not a boat! I think they are backup power supply for a house
Oh thank God.I was getting ready to slam someone! LOL:D

rrrr

06-22-2004, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
The knock on Caps has been that they have a high ESR value for the amount of usable stored energy.
ESR = heat (energy lost)
PS- I'm just messing with you. You are obviously way more advanced than the Industrial Revolution...
...I'd even dare to say the 1940's!
Well, I've been out cleaning the garage, and I checked when I got back. Capacitance is still stored energy. I would guess that you 12 volt wizards don't know how to properly assess circuit capacitance and use a snubber circuit to recharge the caps as required. The reason you think caps are junk is because you don't understand how they work.
Take the cover off that big expensive amp you install next time. Gee, why are all those caps in there?

locogringo

06-22-2004, 08:17 PM

so should I get rid of this capacitor because it is an additional draw or not? I haven't had any problems yet...
I'm confused now!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/26DSC01225-med.JPG

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 08:23 PM

I guess you didn't see this test from Car Sound?
http://www.caraudiolounge.com/uploads/post-31-1076374639.jpg
Dark Blue curve---
For our first test we played the system with the engine off and no cap. The result was the purple trace at the bottom. We played the system as loud as we could get it that seemed to produce no audible distortion. This was track 30 of the IASCA disc. It starts off with fairly low level sounds for the first 34 seconds. In order to insure the electrical system was stable we did not start the measurement until we were 20 seconds into the song. This means that our 0 starting point is :20 on the CD counter. The battery was able to maintain it's voltage just below 12.5 until the loud bass hits at 34 seconds (14 seconds into our chart) At this time it dropped to about 11.5 and had a few large variations due to the music. According to the computer calculations (third chart) the average voltage for this test was 11.7volts. This test was done as a baseline for the following tests.
Yellow curveno cap
For this test the volume was left as it was for the baseline test. The engine was started. Notice that at low volume the alternator was able to maintain about 14 volts. When the loud music hit the voltage dropped to about 12.5 where it remained except for a few short moments where it actually climbed back to over 13.5 volts. The computer averaged calculations for the average voltage during the 100 seconds of this test was 12.973 volts.
Red curvecap added
This test was identical to the previous test except the cap (15 farad type) was added 6 inches from the amp with 4 gauge wireno relays or fuses. The red curve seems to overlay the yellow except that the actual peaks dont rise as fast or as high during the brief quiet moments. I feel this would be due to the alternator having to recharge the cap. The voltage on loud passages hovered around 12.5 volts. The computer averaged calculations for this test show the average voltage to be 12.878 volts. I see no meaningful differences with or without the cap. I certainly dont see the voltage sitting solid at 14 volts.
One note I might add is that this was a two thousand watt system driven right to clipping and the average voltage stayed above 12.8 with a stock 80 amp alternator. Under these conditions the battery would never discharge!
The green and light blue curves were done just for kicks while we had the system set up. In both these tests we turned the volume up until the system was very distorted. This placed a severe load on the alternator and caused the voltage to dip as low as 12 volts. The curves seem to follow each other so closely that unless you have a good monitor it is doubtful you can tell there are two curves. The average voltage for these two curves were both 12.277 and 12.295 volts. If this volume were sustained for very long periods of time this battery would discharge.
As you can see...the cap did stabilize voltage somewhat...but at the cost of actually losing voltage! Losing even a small amount of voltage (or introducing resistance into a circuit) may be OK for your industrial hardware...but is not acceptable in audio.
We must have higher standards than you heavy-equipment operators.
Originally posted by rrrr
Take the cover off that big expensive amp you install next time. Gee, why are all those caps in there?
Now...now, partner. It would appear that you have fallen into the "more is better" crowd (usually reserved for the "bling bling" "2 Fast 2 Furoius" age group).
External caps were first used in the early 80's in car audio, with mixed results. Over time, the EE's and competitors have learned that there is a point of diminishing returns...to the point that most quality amps have ample capacitance built in- more just adds load (and resistance).
Remember, resistance = bad
I'll make you a deal...I'll try not to apply audio equipment learnings to your Fred Flinstone-era industrial equipment.
Wanna reciprocate?
PS- you don't charge a cap with a test light? :eek!:

rrrr

06-22-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by locogringo
so should I get rid of this capacitor because it is an additional draw or not? I haven't had any problems yet...
I'm confused now!
Naww, just plop a hotty down in that seat and let 'er rip. If you do it right the sound from her and the stereo will combine to make it sound perfect.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I guess you didn't see this test from Car Sound?
Blah Blah Blah
If you don't use a cap array properly then it won't do what it's supposed to do. You and all the car stereo geeks are clueless about how to use capacitance.
I feel this would be due to the alternator having to recharge the cap.
Boy, what a scientific observation. But hey, at least he knows how to use a voltmeter.
I guarantee you the work I do is ten times more sophisticated than bullshlt audio stuff. But whatever you think.

Havasu Hangin'

06-22-2004, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by rrrr
I guarantee you the work I do is ten times more sophisticated than bullshlt audio stuff.
I've done a few competition systems (been doing it since 1980)...I mostly do my own stuff now as a hobby. I gotta admit, I don't know crap about your stuff...but I do know my way around a 6x9 or two.
But once again...you are right. You know much more about audio than I do. Your expertise and knowledge in car audio shines head and shoulders above all us "non-sophisticated" "bullshit audio" folks.

rrrr

06-22-2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Your expertise and knowledge in car audio shines head and shoulders above all us "non-sophisticated" "bullshit audio" folks.
Hey, if your little example above provided more information I might be able to offer an opinion. When the cap was added to the system, was it in series or parallel? Why did the tester think that 15 farads was appropriate for the system being tested? That's a shltload of capacitance.
If it was installed in parallel, was a resistor/diode arrangement included? If so, what were the values of those devices?
Audio stuff didn't change the laws of electricity. You are kidding yourself if you think that you and your pals are covering new ground.

rivercrazy

06-22-2004, 09:06 PM

If you have water coming from a stable source and stop to fill a bucket, it will reduce the flow. Thats what a cap does. Simple as that....I'll say it again, a cap is a use of current, not a source. It does not produce any of its own current. It stores energy from the source. And in the process looses a little current in the process.....
Information derived from my Dad who is a 40 year electrical engineer. There are useful purposes of capacitors. Just not in the scenario with the Cap craze used in car audio. It is pure marketing hype on how to sell a cap that costs less than a buck and sell it to consumers for close to $100

RiverToysJas

06-22-2004, 09:16 PM

Man, you guys don't know shit! http://op6c.com/forums/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I did this system myself....
http://www.mederle.de/amc/pckf/8-track.jpg
RTJas :D

rrrr

06-22-2004, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
If you have water coming from a stable source and stop to fill a bucket, it will reduce the flow. Thats what a cap does. Simple as that....I'll say it again, a cap is a use of current, not a source. It does not produce any of its own current. It stores energy from the source. And in the process looses a little current in the process.....
Yes, a capacitor loses a bit of efficiency in its ability to transfer energy. So does a battery, a windmill, or a nuclear power plant. Nothing is 100% efficient. A DC cap is NOT a use of current. It stores a certain amount of energy provided to it based upon its construction. The amount of power it releases is reduced only by thermal and resistive forces. When properly used, it is a source of energy to maintain circuit VOLTAGE regardless of circuit AMPACITY.
If the capacitor circuit is properly constructed, then the energy required to recharge the capacitor to its maximum potential will be virtually TRANSPARENT to the circuit in terms of voltage difference. That's why capacitors are used in circuits.
Its apparent from the posts in this thread that many people that pass themselves off as experts in the field have no grasp whatsoever on the basics of electrical engineeering.
But this is ***boat Forums, not EE Forums.....

rrrr

06-22-2004, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by RiverToysJas
Man, you guys don't know shit!I did this system myself....
RTJas :D
LMFAO, I ain't smart enough to think you aren't funny.....
:D :D

rrrr

06-22-2004, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I've done a few competition systems (been doing it since 1980)...I mostly do my own stuff now as a hobby. I gotta admit, I don't know crap about your stuff...but I do know my way around a 6x9 or two.
But once again...you are right. You know much more about audio than I do. Your expertise and knowledge in car audio shines head and shoulders above all us "non-sophisticated" "bullshit audio" folks.
And one more thing...
During all this discussion I tried to be a normal guy, but you introduced the condescension....
So since this is the internet I can feel comfortable telling you that you are nothing more than a journeyman wire jockey. I'm the guy with the degree, the knowledge, the big boat, and the air conditioned office.
Take your attitude and small boat and stuff it up your azz.

Havasu Hangin'

06-23-2004, 04:16 AM

Originally posted by rrrr
...last time I checked capacitors stored energy, not used it.
Originally posted by rrrr
Yes, a capacitor loses a bit of efficiency in its ability to transfer energy.
Low ESR (1 farad) cap arrays have shown to be the the most effiecient...but still no measurable benefit to audio...other than to the guys that sold them.
Maybe they benefit your Barney Rubble machines...but I don't think this thread is about how your industrial battery banks affect sound produced by speakers.
Originally posted by rrrr
So since this is the internet I can feel comfortable telling you that you are nothing more than a journeyman wire jockey.
Yes...I am a journeyman wire jockey. The only thing worse than a journeyman wire jockey...is one that is in denial.
Originally posted by rrrr
I'm the guy with the degree, the knowledge, the big boat, and the air conditioned office.
You have a degree? OH MY GOD! I always wanted one of those things! Do they sell them on Ebay? Cuz I sertanly didn't gratuate from kollege.
Congrats on the big boat...I've always admired you guys with a big boat.
Air conditioned office? Man...you are living the dream over there. Do you guys have running water, too?
Originally posted by rrrr
Its apparent from the posts in this thread that many people that pass themselves off as experts in the field have no grasp whatsoever on the basics of electrical engineeering.
Yes...it is very apparent that some folks on these forums are claiming to be experts...with no real knowledge of audio.
Once again...it appears we are all just taking up space in your world, and I apologize. We "unsophisticated" "bullshit" audio folks definately don't know what we are doing...and need to be set straight.
I appreciate you trying to be a "normal guy"...but that shoe obviously didn't fit.

superdave013

06-23-2004, 04:49 AM

Damn, the only thing I learned in school was ya charge those caps up and toss 'em to your buddy.
"Hey, check this out" ZAPPPPPPPPPPPPPP :)
Hey, those battery boxes are pretty nice eh?
I've got three old rack mouted Crown amps. Do you guys think I could run an inverter and shoe horn those puppies in my schiada? If I hooked them up to a rotory phase converter, one amp on each leg would you hear any sound due to the amps running out of phase?
guys, the horse is dead now. lol

mtndewdrops

06-23-2004, 05:27 AM

Relax Fellas, Have a beer and listen to some Yanni. We respect both of you whether you have a degree or not, big boat or little boat...etc. Sheeeesh
Lets get back to the original topic...Nice BOX FROGGYSTYLE!

Havasu Hangin'

06-23-2004, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by mtndewdrops
Relax Fellas, Have a beer and listen to some Yanni.
Comon, guys. You know me well enough that I don't take this too seriously.
However, I agree...this thread has been very educational:
1. I appear to be a nice guy in person, but I am a pretty serious schmuck online.
2. Froggy does not respect my opinion because I disagree with putting golf cart batteries in boats.
3. I am nothing more than a journeyman wire jockey because I disagree with rrr.
4. I need to take my attitude and small boat and stuff it up my azz.
Yanna sucks! Kenny G is much more audio-friendly. ;)

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I agree...this thread has been very educational.
Now there's something I agree with
Originally posted by another internet idiot:
This is such a helpful forum.
Never have I learned of my mistakes more quickly than here.

Flyinbowtie

06-23-2004, 06:15 AM

Those battery boxes are a work of art. I wish I had something cool enough to put them in.
Maybe my family room?:)
You guys might want to talk to some of the boys with the high $ motorcoaches that are running the 6 volt batteries. Maybe make some of these units for them, personalized. I few $ to be made, maybe.:D

mtndewdrops

06-23-2004, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Comon, guys. You know me well enough that I don't take this too seriously.
However, I agree...this thread has been very educational:
1. I appear to be a nice guy in person, but I am a pretty serious schmuck online.
2. Froggy does not respect my opinion because I disagree with putting golf cart batteries in boats.
3. I am nothing more than a journeyman wire jockey because I disagree with rrr.
4. I need to take my attitude and small boat and stuff it up my azz.
Yanna sucks! Kenny G is much more audio-friendly. ;)
No problem, Just thought I would lighten things up on this thread.

boxscore

06-23-2004, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
"Trident...ribbed for her pleasure"
:cool:
Hey HH... I learned a long time ago that you just forget about trying to pleasure her. That's why I wear those ribbed things inside-out ;)

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 08:46 AM

I disagree on the statement that a cap is not a use of current. Since it doesn't produce any current on its own, it must be charged from the source. Without a charge from the source, the cap stores no energy. Its a use not a source of current....
My point here is not to argue the traditional uses of capacitors. They are vital to many applications. But not to the type of use we are talking about here.
A cap will only be charged up consistent with the power source (i.e. batteries or alternator). If the power source is not providing the needed current, the Cap is not going to make up the difference. A cap is designed to release its energy in a very small fraction of a second. That is not going to bridge the gap if the energy supply is not able to keep up with the demand.
In the real world of boating, most guys rely on their batteries to supply power for the stereo without the engine running (i.e. no alternator). In this scenario, the cap becomes another draw on the batteries (it must be recharged everytime its discharged). The cap is not going to make up for a material shortfall in voltage. A cap is not a nuclear power plant!
My point here is not to argue the usefullness of capacitors in general. But the usefulness of a cap in this application. Your better off spending money on more batteries or upgrade your alternator or both. Band-aids are not going to solve voltage shortfalls.
As for being an expert - well I am not. I don't have an EE degree. However, I know more than most people out there without an EE. I'm lucky to have a Dad that is an EE and I've learned much about that stuff from him.:D
Originally posted by rrrr
Yes, a capacitor loses a bit of efficiency in its ability to transfer energy. So does a battery, a windmill, or a nuclear power plant. Nothing is 100% efficient. A DC cap is NOT a use of current. It stores a certain amount of energy provided to it based upon its construction. The amount of power it releases is reduced only by thermal and resistive forces. When properly used, it is a source of energy to maintain circuit VOLTAGE regardless of circuit AMPACITY.
If the capacitor circuit is properly constructed, then the energy required to recharge the capacitor to its maximum potential will be virtually TRANSPARENT to the circuit in terms of voltage difference. That's why capacitors are used in circuits.
Its apparent from the posts in this thread that many people that pass themselves off as experts in the field have no grasp whatsoever on the basics of electrical engineeering.
But this is ***boat Forums, not EE Forums.....

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 09:44 AM

Regarding "use", where is the energy going?
The logical answer is the cap, of course. But the energy has not been used....only "relocated", right?
Since we like to use water as a comparison, a pitcher is full of water.....representing a battery, an empty glass represents a discharged capacitor, and a faucet represents an alternator or charger, and lastly, a sponge represents the amplifier.
fill the glass with water from the pitcher and we stll have the same amount of water, just in two different places, right? We havent "used" any of the water yet.
Now, refill the pitcher with the faucet and we have an extra amount of water, right?
Now lets connect the pitcher and the glass with a siphon hose, so that as the glass is emptied it is simultaneously filled by the pitcher, which can be refilled by the faucet at the end of the day.
So, the sponge "uses" the water that we "relocated" to the glass, the way I see it.
Note: Water has no ESR value, I know. I simply put this out as an example for debate on the subject of whether or not a cap "uses" energy, and furthermore, to compare the inevitable evaporation of the water to the parasitic loss of energy from the capacitor.
:confused:

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 09:48 AM

What happens if the hose doesn't supply enough water? :D
Bingo!

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
What happens if the hose doesn't supply enough water? :D
Bingo!
The diameter of the hose is irrelevant to the example, but I dont understand what you mean.
perhaps I should clarify that the glass is in a parallel circuit, not series as implied.
If the hose is unable to keep up with the demand of the sponge, what difference would it make if the glass is in the circuit or not?

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 10:08 AM

If the faucet cannot keep up with the demand downstream, the glass will be of no use or purpose. If there was enough supply from the faucet, then its still of no benefit.
That is what cap's are sold for but don't fulfill their marketed purpose. I'm not knocking caps or anyone that uses them. Hell I used to have one in my former boat.:D

Krumbsnatcher

06-23-2004, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
If the faucet cannot keep up with the demand downstream, the glass will be of no use or purpose. If there was enough supply from the faucet, then its still of no benefit.
That is what cap's are sold for but don't fulfill their marketed purpose. I'm not knocking caps or anyone that uses them. Hell I used to have one in my former boat.:D
You mentioned alternators, what type of amperage does an alternator have to be in order to keep our batteries pumping juice to our stereo. Here is my scenario i have a 3 bat system the engine bat is an optima Yellow (never want to be caught with a dead starting motor) the stereo bats are two walmart deep cycle marine bats. Bat 1 (engine) is attached to a perko switch as #1 and the other two bats are on #2.
Currently i have a standard 55 amp alternator going to bat 1, but i have a new 140 amp alternator i plan on hooking up this weekend. Now when i charge my batteries i switch the perko to #2. I also have an option to go to all, I only use this switch when i am under way and i forgot to switch to bat #2.
Do you think this will help my batteries stay alive, also who runs a Honda EU generator to support longer stereo play time.
Sorry for all the questions, I am not an expert on batteries.
Thanks again.

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 10:36 AM

The best system I've seen is on Mbrowns boat. He has a Honda generator and a Xantrex battery charger installed in his ride. VERY nice setup.
Do you have a major problem with battery rundown after a day of cranking your stereo? For me, I don't rely heavily on my alternator to bring my stereo batteries back up. I use a battery charger every night to charge them back up. Most batteries like being charged up a little slower versus faster.
I've always been told that hitting batteries with too high of an amp charge is bad for them (creates heat and harms the plates and plate coating). A 140 amp alternator spread across 3 batteries would still likely hit them with at least 35-40 amps with some of your accessories running. I think a higher amp alternator is of benefit but it depends on if you have access to an outboard battery charger and if you run your boat for long periods after running your batteries down.

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
If the faucet cannot keep up with the demand downstream, the glass will be of no use or purpose. If there was enough supply from the faucet, then its still of no benefit.
I agree completely.
But where is their "use" of energy?
I'm not knocking caps or anyone that uses them. Hell I used to have one in my former boat.:D
I should add that I am in no way an advocate of using capacitors, on the contrary, if I were competing I most certainly would not use one.
My use of them is beyond the audio system. Previous to this system, when floating at night with the system playing and all the lighting on, the lights would dim as the bass would hit, as well as any change to the electrical load. Opening the engine hatch to get a fresh beer for example, would result in a pretty good dip in the lighting.
I chose to install the capacitance to stabilize the electrical load within the complete boat, and I have acheived that goal.
Today, I can have all the lighting on, the stereo playing, (with a higher power demand) and open/close the hatch, etc. with no change to the output of the lights.
Again, I accept the potential loss of energy that using a cap might introduce to gain the total system stabilization that it also has given.
But I still dont see where they "use" energy. :confused: ;)

Froggystyle

06-23-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
But I still dont see where they "use" energy. :confused: ;)
Yeah, I don't want to get in the middle of this, because I don't know enough about them to use, or not use them properly, but I don't see them as a draw, or "use" any more than a pipe is a use of water. It is a conduit and storage device.
I think the word "draw" is perhaps more appropriate for the discussion. I don't see a cap as a draw, with exception of minimal line losses or whatever parasitic draw you are going to get out of an electrical device. I don't recall that they get warm, but if they do that would make it, in my simplistic overview, a draw as it is turning electrical energy into heat. (resistance)
In any case, I would say that if the cap due to parasitic or resistive losses takes more away from the system than any stabilization it is actually doing, it would be of little use to our systems. If it is the opposite, than obviously the opposite is true.
Anyway, I don't run caps in my audio because my amps already have them, and I haven't had a problem at all with voltage drop. As for interior lighting, I run that off of a different battery bank altogether to solve that problem.
Have fun, and for god's sakes, be careful... ;)

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
I don't run caps in my audio because my amps already have them.
So do mine, of course.
I haven't had a problem at all with voltage drop. As for interior lighting, I run that off of a different battery bank altogether to solve that problem.
I have the system wired through a Perko, so I could run the amp's as stand alone.
However, I found in the past that I am too lazy to remember to switch over when beaching, and for that matter, I havent had a need to switch.
Hence the configuration I used.
If the cap due to parasitic or resistive losses takes more away from the system than any stabilization it is actually doing, it would be of little use to our systems.
Agreed. Particularly to the resistance.
But, again, I designed this system to my own personal needs. not to win any awards, and to that end, I have suceeded miserably.:D

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 12:30 PM

I'm glad your investment in the cap suited your needs.:D

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 01:42 PM

I guess it's time to let this thread die.:D
I'll admit I was a little bored today, and it's kinda slow around here.....;)
BTW, to Froggy, nice millwork.;)
P.S. Cap's are a source, not a use.:D :D

Havasu Hangin'

06-23-2004, 02:49 PM

Caps have an ESR value...which means resistance. Resistance will turn energy to heat (I think Froggy pointed out that almost all electrical devices contain some form of resistance). Therefore...they use energy.
It's not alot, but when you consider the storage capacity (joules) of a cap...it is significant.
Like rrr pointed out...the only way to gain significant voltage stabilization is to parallel (notice the word "parallel") multiple (low farad) caps to keep the ESR value down.
However, who wants to buy a dozen or so .5 farad caps and install them? Not realistic...so nobody does it.
Hell...just go buy a better alternator. Krumbsnatcher- make sure you use 4 gauge cable off that alternator. Keep it away from the engine as much as possible (it will absorb less heat), and don't make the run more than a couple feet (or go to 2 gauge).
But don't listen to me...I'm a pretty serious schmuck, so don't respect my opinion. I am nothing more than a journeyman wire jockey and I need to take my attitude and small boat and stuff it up my azz.
This thread will never die.

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 03:08 PM

A cap specifically manufactured for low ESR, would create very little resistance within the circuit.
Notice I said "very little resistance". I concede that [any device that can generate heat within (load) a circuit will, naturally, create resistance.
I dont believe a cap, wired parallel with an amplifier power circuit, will "use", "draw", or otherwise deplete the energy source.
By the way, Jeff, where the heck have you been all day? This thread would have so much interesting with your idiotic input.
Damn internet expert....;)

Havasu Hangin'

06-23-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by 1stepcloser
By the way, Jeff, where the heck have you been all day? This thread would have so much interesting with your idiotic input.
Damn internet expert....;)
I'm out looking for a job...preferably one with air conditioning.
However, it looks like a paper hat is the only uniform I qualify for.
The only thing worse than an "internet expert" is a "bullshit audio internet expert schmuck"...
...but I'm not in denial about it.

Tom Brown

06-23-2004, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I need to take my attitude and small boat and stuff it up my azz.
Get pics.

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 03:23 PM

EE wannabees....:D
Jeff if you need an EE to help design the stereo in Big Whitey, let me know. This 12V stuff is reeeel complicated.....:p

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
I'm out looking for a job...preferably one with air conditioning.I'm afraid you'll only get that after you have a "degree".
The only thing worse than an "internet expert" is a "bullshit audio internet expert schmuck"...
such as yourself.... Well theres no need for "condescention"....you "uneducated" "journeyman wire jockey".

Havasu Hangin'

06-23-2004, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Tom Brown
Get pics.
But I'll need both hands, I think?
Originally posted by rivercrazy
Jeff if you need an EE to help design the stereo in Big Whitey, let me know. This 12V stuff is reeeel complicated.....:p
Yeah...I'll strain both my brain cells just thinking about that stuff.
Originally posted by 1stepcloser
I'm afraid you'll only get that after you have a "degree".
But that's why I want the air conditioning....a couple degrees (cooler).
Originally posted by 1stepcloser
Well theres no need for "condescention"....you "uneducated" "journeyman wire jockey".
Sorry...I forgot the "condescending" adjective...it will never happen again, Mr. Perfect!

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
EE wannabees....:D
Jeff if you need an EE to help design the stereo in Big Whitey, let me know. This 12V stuff is reeeel complicated.....:p
Hell, couple of rockford's....a shitload of 6X9's a couple of twelves under the bow area, throw in some caps.....good to go!
Oh, dont forget the fans....point em directly on the circuit boards.
Oh...oh, and a bank of 6 volts....6 of em in a series/parallel would be reeel coool, 18 volts would really make some watts.....
That much is easily learned right here on these boards. :D

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 03:36 PM

You forgot the 8 track player, 18 gauge power wire, electrical tape for the amplifer power wire splices, and the Sparkomatics

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Havasu Hangin'
Sorry......it will never happen again, Mr. Perfect!
Again, with the Sharp tounge (http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/62369/grail12.wav) eh?
Of course you realize, this will not go unanswered.... (http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/57075/bugs14.wav)

mickeyfinn

06-23-2004, 04:22 PM

The answer to this whole arguement is pretty simple. The Caps are not a USE of power. They are a LOSS of power. A VERY SMALL loss, simply due to the miniscule losses in efficiency. The real question is are they a benefit to an audio application. I believe that they can be of use at a specific current draw under a given set of circumstances regarding available power. If you want to compare it to the water theory you run the faucet into a bucket, You hook a pump to the bottom of the bucket. Set the faucet to supply a metered volume of water. If your pump is pumping the water faster than the faucet is supplying it then the bucket is worthless. Simply a big piece of pipe. However, if the nominal flow rate is less than the faucet flow rate and the pump needs an occasional burst of extra water then the bucket serves as a source to buffer the demand. The only situation in which a cap can possibly be of benefit in an audio application is just like the bucket analogy. If your normal listening volume is lower than the total current available from the battery/charging system with just maybe an occasional thump of bass to exceed that amount the capacitor MAY offer enough buffer to prevent clipping. Caps discharge so fast though that the ability to buffer any significant amount of shortfall is very unlikely. Most Bass notes which typically require the most current last longer than a micorsecond, after which the cap is discharged and the amp is clipping anyway.
BOTTOM LINE:
If you gonna spend the extra C-note then buy another battery or bigger alternator.

1stepcloser

06-23-2004, 04:37 PM

Umm.....OK..... (//http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/20605/gooni11.wav)

Froggystyle

06-23-2004, 05:29 PM

This has been bugging me a little. And not the cap thing either, I am back on the 6 volt vs. 12 volt subject.
Allegedly, there has been some form of empirical, side by side comparison done using a pair of 12 volt energy sources vs. a pair of 6 volt energy sources that I never heard of. Let's, for the sake of argument just agree that the 12 volt, fast recovery, extraordinarly expensive stereo batteries have a slight performance edge during actual playtime than the 6 volt array does. Not audible to most, but audible to an audiophile none the less. Let's say it is "flat" for the sake of happy discourse.
Now let me bring in my single jet drive, 21' boat argument. In the face of overwhelming evidence of decreased top end performance and fuel mileage, my answer to the efficiency question with regard to the jet has always been "they are nowhere near as inefficient as a sandbar" and if you choose to boat in low water, and hit one with an outdrive, you will know what I mean.
I am going to draw the same correlation here. By a 12 volt proponents (Rivercrazy) own calculations, you will get 5.2 hours out of a pair of $180 a piece Optimas, and 7.4 hours out of a pair of $50 Trojans. How much efficiency are you losing during that 2.2 hours of silence? How "flat" is that period, while you get stuck listening to the guy with 6 volts crank the "Spice Girls" next to you?
I personally have done a side by side comparison, right down to putting each bank on a separate side of a Perko. There was only 2 12 volt batteries though (SVR group 27 stereo batteries) and there were 4 Trojans. I did notice that my four Trojans were significantly stronger in the bass department, with longer bass hits and duration. I don't know if it was because of the extra connective material between plates, extra batteries, or that it was something else, but it did hit harder, with less drop on the volt meter.
In any case, I have tried both, money is not my deciding factor on outfitting the Revolution, and in fact it has cost me a hell of a lot of money developing the battery boxes for them, when I could have gone with COTS units with the Optimas.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but I have not paid for stereo gear for years. I have been sponsored by the companies I have seeked sponsorship by, and the last thing I would be doing is paying for batteries. I run Trojans because they were the best solution to my problem. Period.
BTW, I have a brand-new Group 27 SVR sitting in my garage, going bad and unused. Trojans go in my boat.

Lightning

06-23-2004, 05:40 PM

What's a battery?

rrrr

06-23-2004, 06:53 PM

OK guys, I'm able to admit when I'm an idiot. My beer fueled, pi$$ed at life, make yourself look stupid tirade was off the scale.
I apologize for being an a$$. Go ahead and get your shots in, I deserve it. Boaters shouldn't talk that way to fellow water geeks.
I apologize.

rivercrazy

06-23-2004, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
How much efficiency are you losing during that 2.2 hours of silence? How "flat" is that period, while you get stuck listening to the guy with 6 volts crank the "Spice Girls" next to you?
I personally have done a side by side comparison, right down to putting each bank on a separate side of a Perko. There was only 2 12 volt batteries though (SVR group 27 stereo batteries) and there were 4 Trojans. I did notice that my four Trojans were significantly stronger in the bass department, with longer bass hits and duration. I don't know if it was because of the extra connective material between plates, extra batteries, or that it was something else, but it did hit harder, with less drop on the volt meter.
Trojans go in the boat
If I had to listen to Spice Girls next to me, I'd pack up and move! LOL.... Again it depends on your priorities. The amount of run time on the 12 volts for my purposes would be way more than I need. I tend to boat at least as much as I'm floating or hanging at a beach. I use my boat as a boat.
Your test in the second paragraph isnt a fair comparison. That is twice the batteries. But if you wanna carry all that lead that might be worth having longer run times. But then again, you could also run 4 12 volts in parallel and be slightly less on the weight total.
Are ya gonna paint Tridents burgandy and yellow? J/K hehehe
Seriously though, I am not able to come up with mathmatical calculations on what the resistance would be in a 6V series wired battery setup. I would tend to guess that since series wiring would cause current to flow through each battery plate through all the batteries wired in series that resistence would come into play.

mbrown2

06-23-2004, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by rrrr
OK guys, I'm able to admit when I'm an idiot. My beer fueled, pi$$ed at life, make yourself look stupid tirade was off the scale.
I apologize for being an a$$. Go ahead and get your shots in, I deserve it. Boaters shouldn't talk that way to fellow water geeks.
I apologize.
I always find humor in a beer induced diatribe.....its only the internet:D....you provided a lot of good info...above my head, but that's not saying much...:D

Jordy

06-23-2004, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
If I had to listen to Spice Girls next to me...
Now if they were actually in the boat, not memorex, 2 or 3 of them aren't bad, or at least weren't back in the day... ;)

Jrocket

06-23-2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
For someone who is such a nice guy in person, you are a pretty serious schmuck online, you know that?
Funny you say that.I was thinking the same way about you,except Ive never met you in person so I'll just have to go with the schmuck part.

rrrr

06-23-2004, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by Froggystyle
I did notice that my four Trojans were significantly stronger in the bass department, with longer bass hits and duration. I don't know if it was because of the extra connective material between plates, extra batteries, or that it was something else, but it did hit harder, with less drop on the volt meter.
:D At the risk of starting another tomato tossing contest....
Batteries have two properties that are sorta measurable... resistance and CAPACITANCE. :D
Big (as in plate area) batteries have more capacitance and are able to maintain voltage during amperage spikes.
Uh, I'm going to bed now....
:D :D

phebus

06-23-2004, 09:52 PM

O.K., I know I am not going to get everyone to agree on this, but I have an existing stereo set-up that is running a Farad 1.0 capacitor. The money is spent, and it is installed, but now I am wondering if I should keep it in the system or remove it. Post away please, and I will try to sort through them to reach a decision. Here is a picture of the system:
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/1753Amps_003-med.jpg

Tom Brown

06-23-2004, 10:30 PM

Is that a type ABC capacitor?
My experience with caps has been mixed. It seems like the better the amp, the less it helps. Even with the worst amps, it doesn't help much. Still, for some people every little bit counts.
... so, I would leave it in as it isn't hurting anything and probably helps a tiny bit.

Havasu Hangin'

06-24-2004, 03:54 AM

That looks like a fire extinguisher to me?
I say keep it. With that system, you probably won't notice an improvement by taking it out.
Also, if you did take it out...how are you going to put a fire out?

Froggystyle

06-24-2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by rivercrazy
The amount of run time on the 12 volts for my purposes would be way more than I need. I tend to boat at least as much as I'm floating or hanging at a beach. I use my boat as a boat.
Two years ago, I spent a week in Lake Powell with OTR. We did not have to re-charge the batteries the whole time, nor could we really where we were. We skiied with it, we partied on it every single night, we drove it to and from Dangling Rope and Bullfrog multiple times for ice runs and listened to the stereo cranking the whole time.
That is the kind of depth I want from the bank of batteries. I want to be able to run a whole long weekend of normal use without any dead battery issues. If you are able to pull it out and charge it... so much the better. If you are on the water enough to charge them with the alternator (I wouldn't, but I am rigging it so you can if you want to) then more power to you. But the stereo won't die on you.
But then again, you could also run 4 12 volts in parallel and be slightly less on the weight total.
Actually, you would be significantly lighter. 180# of batteries vs. 248# of Trojans, but you would be WAY lighter on performance. Four Optimas would give you about 10.4 hours of runtime vs. 14.8 with the Trojans. Again, back to that 42% less runtime argument.
Are ya gonna paint Tridents burgandy and yellow? J/K hehehe
:confused: I don't get it?
Seriously though, I am not able to come up with mathmatical calculations on what the resistance would be in a 6V series wired battery setup. I would tend to guess that since series wiring would cause current to flow through each battery plate through all the batteries wired in series that resistence would come into play.
No more than properly wiring a parallel circuit would do. You would never wire the #1 battery's neg and positive to the #2's neg and positive straight to the load. You would put the #1 negative to load, and the #2 positive to load. In either case, the power is essentially going through... in the case of the 12 volts with 6 cells each, 12 cells.
In the 6 volt equation, the power is only going through 6 cells.
Jeez, by your own logic, properly loading a bank of 12 volts creates MORE resistance than 6 volts.
Ooops... ;)